Mary Railey and Lillian Crouch

[00:02] MARY RAILEY: I'm Mary Railey and today's date is February 8, 2023. I never give out my age. Location is El Paso, Texas, and I've lived here since 1949. Uh oh. I almost gave my age. My interview partner is Lillian Crouch, and she. We are both representing El Paso Women's Club. We were both presidents, and Lillian is a good friend of mine and has been for a long time. Lillian.

[00:45] LILLIAN CROUCH: My name is Lillian Crouch, and I'm over 50 years of age. And today's date is February 8, 2023. Location is El Paso, Texas. The name of my interview partner is Mary Railey Relationship to her is friend. We have been friends for a long time. We're both members of the Women's Club of El Paso. We worked on a lot of projects together.

[01:22] MARY RAILEY: I was president twice, in 2010 and 2016. In the 2016, I told the committee to nominate me. I kind of rigged it where I would get the nomination so that, of course, I still had to be elected. And no one. No one disagreed. So I was president in 2016. The reason that I wanted to be president then was because our house, we have a clubhouse, was 100 years old at that time. And that house is very amazing. That house is beautiful. It is large. It is the first woman's club, well, the first clubhouse for women in the state of Texas, not in the United States, but in the state of Texas. And so that's why I wanted to be president, and I will get back with that. Lillian, you were president what year?

[02:37] LILLIAN CROUCH: I was president in 2007, and I have been a member of the women's Club for 34 years. When I first joined the club, it was by invitation only. So I felt, and it still is today. And I felt very privileged to be extended the invitation to participate in the women's club. It's very prestigious, and they did a lot of exciting things for the city. The women that started the organization in 1894, they. I won't say they ran the city, but everybody would come to them to ask questions on and get their opinions about certain civic minded things that were going on in the city. The women were very proper and prominent. They were very refined. I guess that's the best word to use. And they came here to rowdy southwest border city. They were wondering, what can we do to make this better? So they thought. And then, I guess in May of 1894, a small group of women came together in El Paso. Right off it was San Francisco street. And Mary Hamilton was the, I guess, organizer. She coordinated the women to get together to do this. And they were very civic minded individuals and organizations. That came, and that was organized at that time, would ask them for their opinions, what could they do? Because they thought very highly of that group of ladies and wanted them to really help them guide the city in the right direction, to make it, you know, somewhat more refined, because it wasn't at that time, it was riding cowboys and hipping and hooling and howling and all those kinds of things. And they said, oh, what do we have here? So they were trying to refine the situation, and I think they did a very good job. Mary, what do you think about the beginning?

[05:06] MARY RAILEY: I do. I think that's a lovely explanation of the beginning. And you have to remember that in 1894, women couldn't vote. They couldn't even vote when we built a house in 2000, 1916, it wasn't until 1919 that they were given permission to vote. So you have to realize that the women could not be political, because if you don't vote, you're not political.

[05:42] LILLIAN CROUCH: Correct.

[05:43] MARY RAILEY: And so it became a culture club. And the culture club was in the sphere of women, and it was everything that men didn't want to do, actually. And however, the newspaper editors and political cartoonists immediately realized that the effort, the women, was immense. And he said, women have laid down the broomstick to pick up the club. So we had a lot of power, a lot of influence in the city of El Paso and of Texas and of the United States, and being the first women's club. Now, we weren't the first club. The first club was. I'm not real sure where the first club was, but Austin, Texas, might have been the first. Austin and Dallas and of the bigger cities, we were not as big as those cities were at the time. But when Mary Mills first came here, her father was the provisional governor of Texas after the civil war. So that'll give you an idea of who she was. And many wondered at that time how such a gentle woman could come to such a border village. But she found here, she found an extraordinary group of women who lived in perilous times. They were women of talent and social life in the wilderness of El Paso, and El Paso was the wilderness, and they were responsible for the women's club of El Paso. But many firsts occurred. Lillian, you want to go into the first?

[08:12] LILLIAN CROUCH: Well, I would like to reiterate that the women's club of El Paso became an entity which has influenced the history of the city by their involvement in what they did. These women that gathered together, they worked together for change. They believed that was important and was necessary at the time. The women's club was part of a nationwide movement that they didn't really know it was, but they found out later that it was indeed which herald changing roles of women in the society, one which altered the notion that a woman's place is in the house, and the men recognize that fact as well. It was 25 years before a small group of these intrepid women, led by misses miles, I'm sorry, misses mills. And they met and formed the nucleus of the women's Club of El Paso. In 1881, things began to change. It was the arrival of the railroad into this west Texas town, El Paso, and a new flux, influx of new people had begun to come into the El Paso town. The population, over a nine year span, had grown a rapid pace to over 10,000. So they were really growing. And these women of the 1870s and nineties were greatly responsible for the development of El Paso. Private kindergarten opened in 1892.

[10:00] MARY RAILEY: And a member was responsible for that.

[10:03] LILLIAN CROUCH: Yes. And they had a lot of. First, their first kindergarten was started, and they paid that teacher like $9 monthly. And that was in 1893.

[10:23] MARY RAILEY: Now, the woman's club paid her.

[10:24] LILLIAN CROUCH: Yes. And then the woman's club was admitted in the general Federation of Women in El Paso in December of 1898. So that gave him another nuclear of involvement with the women to get them started. Then we had the. After December of 18 and 98, the new year began with a new name. And that's how we got into the women's club of El Paso. New members and a fresh surge of enthusiasm for the women's club. It was limited to 50 members, and the reason it was limited to 50 members was because they didn't have the room or the space to meet. The homes were not, all the homes were very large, so they had to find a place to meet.

[11:19] MARY RAILEY: They started talking about building a clubhouse by the time they actually formed the club, but it took them a long time before they actually built it. But in 1894, they were already talking about having a clubhouse. And if you could see where the location is, it's on Mesa street, which is a very busy street, and it is a very busy area, and it's on the hill. Of course, the whole town is hills. And I, they picked the spot because it was secluded and quiet. So that was funny, too, that they did that. I want to talk about one of our members that was very instrumental in the development of the woman's club, and that is Olga Kohlberg. And not too long ago, we had Kohlberg and her family come to the woman's club, and we presented them with the honor of having a meeting, etcetera, in their honor and the program in their honor. And she said one of the funniest things. The lady that was the granddaughter to misses Kohlberg, Washington, Eleanor Goodman. And she said that they were just scared to death of their grandmother, scared to death of her. And she was quite the lady. And to give you an example of how she was, she had a maid that brought the turkey in on a platter. They were having thanksgiving, and they brought. She brought the turkey in on a platter to present it, and she missed a step, and the turkey slid off the platter onto the floor. So misses Kohlberg, without a hitch, without a paw, said, maria, go get the other one. And the maid was very, very smart. And she said, yes, ma'am, she would do that. And she did, of course, she goes in and dusts off the turkey and puts it back on the platter, and they ate it and never knew the difference. So that kind of gives you an idea about misses Kohlberg. And I've patterned myself after her because she was president and the treasurer for many years, and I was treasurer for two years and decided I'd rather be president. That treasurer's job was a real hard job. Being president's more fun. And anyway, she's the one that really kept the club going and kept the club in. Is it in the red? Is that the good? Is it good if you're in the red?

[14:53] LILLIAN CROUCH: When you're in the black, it's good.

[14:55] MARY RAILEY: Okay, we were in the black.

[14:56] LILLIAN CROUCH: You were in trouble.

[14:57] MARY RAILEY: Yeah. Okay. We were never in trouble. We were almost in trouble many times. But with Olga being the treasurer, she kind of helped that out. And with her own funds, she helped it out, too. But anyway, I did want to mention her. And we have a plaque out in the front of our building about Olga Kohlberg. She is such a renowned person, and they didn't really have another place to put it. And so that was the best place.

[15:29] LILLIAN CROUCH: The historical commission.

[15:31] MARY RAILEY: The historical commission put the plaque there in our yard at the women's club.

[15:39] LILLIAN CROUCH: You know, Mary, you were talking about the years when they started planning for the women's clubhouse. And I'd just like to enumerate that it took 22 years from the time it was organized and chartered to get that building done. And it is as beautiful now as it was then, and maybe even more so, because there's been some enhancement to it, and what have you to bring it up?

[16:09] MARY RAILEY: It is. It's a beautiful building, and anyone that hears this broadcast needs to come to El Paso and look at it. It's on 1400 north Mesa, not too far from downtown. 14 blocks, actually.

[16:23] LILLIAN CROUCH: Yeah.

[16:24] MARY RAILEY: And very, very beautiful building. And remember that the women couldn't even vote then, and they had.

[16:38] LILLIAN CROUCH: And they were buying and having a clubhouse built.

[16:43] MARY RAILEY: Yeah. I mean, it was just actually amazing. Of course, we have to give a credit where credit's due, and their husbands were very influential people. But on the other hand, the banks would not have loaned the money if they didn't think they were going to get it back, regardless of who the husbands were.

[17:02] LILLIAN CROUCH: Yes.

[17:02] MARY RAILEY: So it's quite a feat. It was quite a feat just to get the building done at all, period. And being a first in the state of Texas. And to be beautiful and to be huge. The building is huge. It's two floors. They had the first museum there for a while on the second floor. And when anybody comes to play or sing or anything like that, they always talk about the acoustics of the auditorium because the acoustics are perfect. And with the door shut, it's called a live room. And it means. That means that you can talk. We have a microphone, but you can speak and be heard everywhere in the building or in the auditorium, which also has a balcony. And the balcony is nice. Also. It has a. It was built with a stage. The stage did have to be increased after a while. It had to be built onto because it was a little small for what we were doing. But there are dressing rooms below it and there's a basement under a basement.

[18:35] LILLIAN CROUCH: And steps to climb.

[18:37] MARY RAILEY: Yeah, you don't really want to go down there. They say it's haunted, but anyway, whether it is or not, or whatever your beliefs are, that's one thing. But the house is very large and very pretty, and we're very proud of it.

[18:57] LILLIAN CROUCH: Yeah. And one unique thing about it, after the term of the president, that outgoing president presents a gift to the club and that becomes a part of the clubhouse. So they received a lot of beautiful gifts that has enhanced, you know, the clubhouse tremendously. And I'd like to say a little bit about my 2007 installation. The women's club is known for its grandeur and beauty and traditions carried forth from the very beginning. And so I wanted to make it very special, and we did. The chairs were covered in white because our color is blue and white with the white with the blue sashes. And you didn't open the door to the ballroom for the luncheon until the hour, and then you kept the doors closed. And the purpose for that was when you open the door, you gasp, because it was so beautiful. And we had another Grammy award winning cellist, Zul Bailey played at my installation, which was a wonderful, delightful program. And he's so special with his artistic endeavors with the cello, and he shared that beautiful music with our members and our guests, and it was very, very special. I think the women's club has so much to offer. It's so grand. But with COVID coming in, it kind of changed a little bit, and we're hoping that we can get back to that very soon. We also have auxiliaries at the women's club. It's a book club where the members can come and enjoy reading books and sharing those experiences with other members. We have our arts and crafts, and all the talented seamstresses and artists can come together and share those experiences with the members as well. And they both meet like once a month. We had another auxiliary that we no longer have, which was very special, and that was a McDowell club. It has since, you know, become, I guess it was disbanded because of different situations that came and people working, moving and what have you. So with membership, it sort of lessened our clubhouse. And Mary mentioned about the stage and what have you. We had recitals of the young people to come to play, to sing, to dance, and to share those musical experiences with the members, which was very, very special. And we are still doing that today. A program vice president elect will bring in choral groups and different kinds of participation for our guest day luncheons. We have two meetings a month, I guess really three. The first Wednesday of the month remembers only the third. Wednesday is guest day, where you can bring a guest and enjoy the splendor, you know, of the house, of the clubhouse. And then we have our board meetings so we can discuss what needs to be done, long range planning, and those kinds of things for our members so we can stay in touch. And our clubhouse is like an individual. As you get older, you need to have some upliftment and repairs, and with that, it becomes very expensive. So during my tenure as president, we had started an endowed fund. And you helped me, Mary, if I can't get the exact amount. But I think it was over $30,000 that we were able to start the endowment for the house. So when repairs were needed, we would have a little nest egg, so to speak, in our savings to help defray the cost of that, our latest venture, we brought a musical group and three tenors for the community in order to raise funds. And we've had some philanthropists here in the city to help with us, like the Hunt foundation, as one, and because we need to continue to maintain that beautiful house, and when the roof needs to be repaired or other things need to be in order to keep its splendor and grandeur, it's costly, and so we have to do that. But when we have our fall festival, we have our spring gala, that is just monies that we save and try to enhance in your out clubhouse. We have a lot of firsts that our members have provided, and I'm trying to remember some of them, a few of the major accomplishments and things that were started by the women's Club during the first, I guess, 50 years of the women's Club, the El Paso Symphony Orchestra became a permanent orchestra, and that was in April of 1931. And six women club members were among the offices and the first chairman. El Paso International Museum board, the beneficial recipients of the women's Club philanthropy. Cancer Treatment Center, American Diabetes Association, El Paso Community College, Southwest Kidney foundation. The women's club members have always played a part in helping the underserved and to provide those necessary needs for them. I guess the women's club, according to our history, the largest amount given during the first year from the women's club to the University of Texas at El Paso, and that was in 1976 and 77. They gave them $35,000, and it went to the athletic department, it went to the library, some to the Gold Diggers, which is part of the dance team for the athletics, and from proceeds from the first event to be brought to the university for their special event center. And when they moved in from Memorial gym there, we were able to help them as well. There was a point in time when the women's Club of El Paso was the only women's club in El Paso. But today, there are numerous organizations with varied interest, and many of them is founded by the Women's Club of El Paso. So the women's club members have had their thumbprint on so many things that have shaped the way that the city has been formulated. And I think that's what makes the city so special, are the people in El Paso are very friendly. They're very kind. Food's great. So those who haven't had the opportunity to come to El Paso really would need to do so. The YWCA was organized, and every time that the group, the women's club, would get together, you know, and they're planning, they would think, what is needed in our city. Example, the Pan American Round Table. It was organized in 1921 by past presidents of the women's Club. There were, like, 63 members. There were 63 of 75 members that were charter members that organized the Pan American Roundtable. The auxiliary of the El Paso County Medical Society 1922 was organized by a woman's club member. The El Paso Garden Club was also organized by the women's Club member on August 1, 1922, and seven of the 15 charter members were members of the woman's club. So they were just busy trying to make El Paso a better place to live and to shape the kinds of activities that was going on and they could bring to El Paso. The Women's Auxiliary of UTET was organized in 1924, again by women from the women's Club. Mary, you have anything you'd like to add to that?

[28:41] MARY RAILEY: Well, any club that was. Had any substance to it, which is actually any club really was founded or created by the woman's Club. Now, many have forgotten that, and we don't get credit for everything, but we still were there. We were there, and the idea was to create a wonderful city. And I think that they did do that. One of the greatest things they ever did, and Olga Kohlberg, again, was at the helm. They created the baby sanitarium in Cloudcroft. And you have to realize, El Paso is very, very hot. And this was prior to air conditioning. No one had ever heard of air conditioning. And so mothers, can you imagine? Little mothers would take their children to the train station, and these people would take their babies from them just so they would live.

[30:10] LILLIAN CROUCH: It was fabulous.

[30:12] MARY RAILEY: And they were taken to the mountains in New Mexico, and they had a baby sanitarium there, and they would keep these children, these infants, until winter, and then the mothers would come get them, and they would take them. And I know my doctor was one of the doctors. His name was Doctor ap Black, and he was one of the doctors. He was a young man then, and he would be one of the doctors at the baby stand. But can you imagine the mothers letting their babies go on a train? But that was to save their lives, because they would get so hot, they would die, they would suffocate. So that was another thing that we took total responsibility for and worked. It worked. Our members worked there. They rode the train up there. They did everything they could to keep that going for as long. And then when air conditioning came in, it was over. And so the building's still there.

[31:26] LILLIAN CROUCH: However, I just want to say one little thing before we go, and I think it's very important, since we're talking about inclusion and diversity at this time. And I think the woman club did that. They started early, I think they were in the trailblazers in that, because when I joined in 2000, in 1989, when I joined the women's club and was invited to participate, I became the first African American that was part of the women's club of El Paso. And that would be unheard of in some of the largest cities in the southwest. And I just think it needs to be noted that they did that. They took that step to make it happen.

[32:15] MARY RAILEY: That's right. No one even thinks of that. No, it's not something that you think about.

[32:21] LILLIAN CROUCH: No, it's not. Because you just think about Lillian, the person, you know.

[32:24] MARY RAILEY: That's right. Lillian Crouch, the purse. She's Miss El Paso. Misses El Paso.

[32:29] LILLIAN CROUCH: No, no.

[32:32] MARY RAILEY: You just don't think of that. But that's true. That's true, Lillian. I hadn't thought of that. And then to become a president, no less.

[32:39] LILLIAN CROUCH: Yes, that was another feat.

[32:42] MARY RAILEY: Yeah.

[32:43] LILLIAN CROUCH: You know, that would have been unheard of, too. So they're just really trail. They've always been trailblazers. The members, you know, maybe not all of them. I don't know, but I think the majority of them did because that's what happened. So the women's Club of El Paso is a very special group of women.

[33:02] MARY RAILEY: We had. I told you all that I was a one man person to get myself elected for 2016. And that was a wonderful year. When we were 100 years old, the oldest club existing in the state of Texas and still going. And, you know, that is just amazing. Absolutely amazing. And so we got everybody on board with us. And the county commissioner's court had us there, gave us a proclamation. And the house actually opened in November of 1916. And our, our architect was Thorman, and our builder was Mister Ponceford, who is a well known builder or was a well known builder in El Paso for many, many years. His daughter is a member. And the history museum, of course, we have such a rich history. Lily and I have just touched on it, actually, and they gave us an honor. That was really, really a magnificent thing at the history museum. We were on the wall of giants there, and we had a display. We had our, some of our furniture out of our house. We had all of the president's pictures. We were given the ground floor and the museum for our exhibit and a party. And it was wonderful on May 7, 2016. And we also had a history moment with the History Channel in El Paso to give everyone our, our history. And we had a dvd made of us by Jackson Polk, who is a historian, historian of El Paso. And it was so it was, it was wonderful. It was a wonderful year. I had a wonderful time. Nearly fell off the balcony. Fortunately, I caught myself.

[35:50] LILLIAN CROUCH: But it was a special time. It was. And it was good that you wanted to be the president, and you were. And it created a lot of excitement for our city. It was very, very special.

[36:03] MARY RAILEY: And we were in the newspaper.

[36:04] LILLIAN CROUCH: Yes. So it was publicized in a big way.

[36:08] MARY RAILEY: Yes. And for a year, they ran different things about us, different areas, different segments of our history, of our history. Once a month. Was it once a month or once a week?

[36:25] LILLIAN CROUCH: I think it was probably once a month.

[36:29] MARY RAILEY: Probably. And that was wonderful. And the reason I don't have all of this stuff with me is because we have a time capsule buried in the front yard at the clubhouse, and I put everything in there and I don't have it.

[36:50] LILLIAN CROUCH: So in the next, what, 50 years was it?

[36:54] MARY RAILEY: It's for 100 years.

[36:56] LILLIAN CROUCH: Well, see, we will be over the rainbow, but.

[37:01] MARY RAILEY: Whoever finds it will have a treasure. But anyway, all of the articles and all of that kind of thing, I've got them someplace. I know I took a picture of them, but I can't find them. But I've got them somewhere.

[37:19] LILLIAN CROUCH: Yeah, you will. It's just been temporarily misplaced.

[37:22] MARY RAILEY: Yes, temporarily. But I had a wonderful year, and I don't think it's ever been topped, actually. It was so great. And the house was. I want everyone to come visit us. I know one time I was there and a group of kids, students came by and their cars, and they were architecture students, and they said, what is this? Tell me about this. And I showed them. I gave them a view of the house, and they knew the periods. They knew all. They said, my gosh, how old is this? I said, it's 100 years old. Well, they were just incredulous, and I invited them back, and it was just a wonderful, wonderful time.

[38:18] LILLIAN CROUCH: But I think what we want to say is we're delighted to have this opportunity to talk about the women's club and to share this information and have it stored in the archival museum. You know, I think it's a lot of things that happen in El Paso are just so quiet, you know, like a breeze, but it has very major significance, and this is a wonderful way. And thank you for the opportunity to share that information.

[38:48] MARY RAILEY: We like your idea of story corpath. It's very nice. Very nice. Thank you.

[38:57] LILLIAN CROUCH: Thank you.

[38:59] MARY RAILEY: Thank you, Lillian.

[39:00] LILLIAN CROUCH: Thank you. Maryland.