Matthew Goff and Mary Ortuno

[00:01] MATTHEW GOFF: Our conversation id is DDv 00233. My name is Matthew Goff I am 35 years old. Today's date is Sunday, March 5 to 2023. I'm in Midlothian, Virginia, and I'm here with my one small step partner, Mary Ortuno

[00:26] MARY ORTUNO: And my name is Mary Ortuno I'm 43 years old. Today is March 5, 2023, and I'm in Richmond, Virginia. Goochland. And I'm here with my one small step partner, Matthew Goff

[00:40] MATTHEW GOFF: Cool. So I will read Elizabeth's bio. So Mary Ortuno says, I am a new Catholic that grew up Lutheran. Growing up, I was very athletic and I was able to play soccer for my college. Graduated with a double major in Spanish and business administration. After college, I joined the Peace Corps and was assigned to Bolivia. SA South America is my guess. There. There I met my husband. We moved back to RVa, Richmond, Virginia, where I worked in health insurance, and we raised our two children. I'm a scout master for our local girls troop in the BSA. I'm guessing Boy Scouts of America survival skills are important to me, so we are also farmers.

[01:30] MARY ORTUNO: In Matt's bio. Hello. I'm a cisgendered, heterosexual white male from Pensacola, Florida that is married with no children due to multiple lost pregnancies and lost international adoption. I've enjoyed a comfortable, middle class lifestyle growing up with married parents and siblings and never wanting having diverse friends, attending college, traveling domestically and internationally, owning a car, a boat house when I want it, and being able to give to the community. I look forward to learning with you.

[02:06] MATTHEW GOFF: Cool. So I have a question for Mary Ortuno So why did you want to participate in one small step?

[02:14] MARY ORTUNO: So I had heard about it on WRVA on the morning with the John Reid show, and I thought it was. It just caught my attention. I said that was, this is something we probably need right now. I do feel we're all very polarized and divided, and it just seems like it's happened. For me, at least, I'm seeing it these last two to three years. I didn't really pay attention before that, and so I was curious to see what it was about and thought this would be a great step to bringing people together. Try it out.

[02:54] MATTHEW GOFF: Cool.

[02:56] MARY ORTUNO: And how about you, Matthew Goff Why did you want to participate in one small step?

[03:00] MATTHEW GOFF: Well, I learned about it through the Richmond Forum in the speaker series. And I just listening to the story and how it started, I was like, I really thought it's just a cool thing to do. And then as I looked around, I was like, I definitely feel this, this divide and this being a potential platform and opportunity to engage. And I said, well, if I'm going to tell folks about it, I should also be willing to engage in it. And so I signed up and eventually got this opportunity, which I'm really grateful for, just to try it out. And I've already started. I already told folks we were talking this week because I was just excited to see where the conversation would go and what this experience would be like. So we both live around Richmond. You mentioned Goochlin. And actually, when I first moved to Richmond, I was just inside the county limits of Enrico, right next to Goochland. So I thought it was pretty cool. But when you think about Richmond, what is Richmond doing well and where do you think it needs to improve?

[04:31] MARY ORTUNO: It's. I'm a little bit in a bubble out here in Goochland. We are a pretty conservative community out here. It's rural, a lot of like minded people around each other. I have avoided pretty much going into the city of Richmond for these last few years. It's just breaks my heart to see everything that's happening to us. The powers that have divided all of us into thinking one way or another and going in there is a painful reminder of all that. As far as the other counties, I think Henrico seems to be doing really well. I hear a lot of good stuff about Henrico, Chesterfield, Powhatan, but as far as the city, I just. I feel like it's going downhill. I just don't see where they have strong leadership and they seem to be more emotionally charged than they are thinking about. I guess thinking about preserving money and keeping taxes down. It just seems more emotional to me in the bigger city as far as improvement, you know, I just don't know where to start until we have people that can sort of lead everyone together versus pulling us apart.

[06:00] MATTHEW GOFF: Yeah.

[06:00] MARY ORTUNO: What about you? How do you feel about Richmond?

[06:04] MATTHEW GOFF: Yeah, I've. So I felt that the longer I've been in Richmond, I feel like the less it is about true Richmond proper, like Richmond City. And I'm like, oh, like, yes, there are cool things in the city of Richmond, but I find myself talking about the area and the broader. And so, like, I always have when folks ask, like, where do you live? I'm like, I'm just south of Richmond and I feel like when I first moved here, I would just claim Richmond. And I just feel like there's a lacking, like, identity. I think Richmond does some things well. I think Richmond has a lot of potential, like a lot of attractiveness to bring in talent to build our community. And I think we have tremendous amount of history in our area that we could learn from and build off of. But I feel like we're lack. Kind of like, what you're saying, the lack of leadership. There's this, like, it feels split a bit and some not just, like, side a or side b. It's like there's multiple layers, and it's just like, we need to find some commonality, something that pulls together that just says, like, okay, but this. This element, this aspect of Richmond is just awesome. And, like, I would argue the amount of good restaurants in Richmond city limits is, like, really kind of silly for the size of city that Richmond is, but it's awesome and it's great. And, like, everyone can just go eat good meals and you can eat all kinds of meals, be vegan, vegetarian. Like, you want seafood, we can get good seafood in, but I just feel like we don't have that aspect that we can truly say this is what Richmond is. And it brings together, like, I lived in Louisville for a while, and Louisville had this, like, keep it weird, and that was, like, their thing, and they kept it weird, and it was. It worked. And, like, Austin, Texas, for a good while was really known as, like, we're the new startup tech place. Like, that's our thing. And I feel like Richmond hasn't. Hasn't found that, even though there's so much potential for it.

[08:31] MARY ORTUNO: Right, right. Yeah, I think it's a lot of old, rich men mixing with the new, new people coming in, and no one. We don't have a story yet. We did have a story, but got torn down and people didn't like it. And it just makes me wonder, going forward, what's the next thing that people don't like? We're just going to toss it to the side just because a chunk of people didn't like it. So, yeah, I guess we do. We need to find some sort of identity with. With what we are. But I'm seeing a lot of people move away. I mean, that's sad, too. And they're. A lot of people are coming to Guchland. I mean, our county's growing profoundly, which, you know, now everyone's getting scared out here because they don't want to change. So.

[09:32] MATTHEW GOFF: Yeah.

[09:32] MARY ORTUNO: Now, where are you from originally?

[09:34] MATTHEW GOFF: So I grew up in Pensacola, Florida. In the panhandle.

[09:38] MARY ORTUNO: That's right.

[09:40] MATTHEW GOFF: Sometimes lovely, lovingly referred to as la. Lower Alabama. Oh, gosh, we're in Florida.

[09:49] MARY ORTUNO: Yeah. Yeah. And then you said you travel, you've been all over.

[09:55] MATTHEW GOFF: Yes. I was very fortunate that my parents loved traveling. And so as I grew up and with my siblings, they would take us around the United States primarily, but we'd also go into Canada and did some cruises to, like, the Bahamas and Mexico. And I think that helped me see more of our country and see things differently, different lifestyles. Like, I went to Alaska and went to Montana and Colorado, and, like, I'm growing up on a beach in Florida, and I'm going to see mountains and leaves change colors, and people own ranches, and, like, it's just a, I mean, I have an aunt that has a farm, but it just wasn't the same. It was so different. And going out to California and seeing, like, a big city there versus New York where my dad grew up, and, like, how different and just that. Yes, I was a tourist in all of them, so I get a different flavor of the experience in that city, but I just, I got to see very different lifestyles. And yet we're all, like, we're all in the United States of America, and we got to find a balance. And so that was, I'm very grateful that my parents did that. And it instilled in me, like, continuing to travel. So then, as I grew up, like, I was fortunate to go to Spain during high school. And then after that, since college, I've really made it a point to travel. Unfortunately, I found my wife, and she loves to travel, too. So we've been New Zealand, Australia, Fiji. I went to Brazil one year, so we could really see, and we always like to try to see some aspect of what life is like there and how it's different than the way we live life and helps us kind of refine. Like, what do we, like, what do we want?

[12:03] MARY ORTUNO: Right?

[12:04] MATTHEW GOFF: Because that's one thing I definitely noticed. Over time, it changes.

[12:08] MARY ORTUNO: Yeah.

[12:09] MATTHEW GOFF: How about you? Did I get it right that it was South America was the Bolivia? Yeah. Um, so what, what was that like, doing peace corps and.

[12:23] MARY ORTUNO: Oh, it was amazing. Um, yeah, I just, I'm, I've always been one of those people. I didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up, so I've always done lots of different things throughout my life. And after college, I really wanted to get my Spanish down, and I told them, I'll join if you send me to a spanish speaking country. They sent me to Bolivia, and it was, it was an eye opener, for sure. And you get completely immersed in the culture. Obviously, I married a Bolivian, and so I'm still very immersed in the culture. And we, we go to visit every year to his family. And they come here and visit. And that's another reason I think, why I was interested in this program, too, is like you're saying, Matthew Goff when you go to other places and you see a different way of life and you come back home and you're grateful, you're very grateful for what we have here, but you realize so many other people are not, they just don't see how good we have it here and, and ways that we can improve, too, improve and do things better. But at the same time, at least through my lenses, I mean, we've our, the way we have our structure here. I just feel like we're losing a lot of control as far as freedoms and, and liberties. And my husband, who, growing up in Bolivia, has gone through several civil wars and seen people fighting against communism, fighting to save freedom. It's kind of scary seeing things that are happening here throughout the US, especially these last few years.

[14:17] MATTHEW GOFF: Does he draw parallels or.

[14:20] MARY ORTUNO: Oh, yeah, big time. You know, the tearing down statues, people wanting more. Socialize this and socialize that. And he said it's a prickly path because, you know, you start going closer and closer to that, the next thing you know, you are a Venezuela or other country, and nobody likes to hear that. But it can happen. I mean, it can happen here, too. And so, again, that's the reason why I was looking into this. I'm like, we all need to get back together and stop dividing and figuring out what brings us together, what unites us, because we are getting divided. And I'd hate this powerhouse of a country to anything to happen to us.

[15:12] MATTHEW GOFF: Yeah, it's funny, you literally said the words that popped in my mind about figuring out, because I feel like a little bit of what we talk about of, like, learning from seeing different places, learning from different experiences, was like, I feel like, so part of what fed me to this conversation was like, I see friends and communities that I'm in progressing in certain ways or saying, oh, well, this is how, I mean, you can even see it in my bio where, like, I started off with an acknowledgement that I'm a white, cisgendered male and like, yeah. And I, like, see that in the conversation. And in some groups, I see that being a very prominent aspect of the conversation. And then other times, it's not even, it's a non factor. And, like, I grew up where a lot of those elements weren't factors. It didn't, it wasn't a topic of conversation. It was, you're a person sitting across the table from me at lunch and we're just chatting about things, and we may disagree about things, but we're, like, trying to figure out where we actually stand. And I feel like. I feel like that's lacking nowadays, where we say we want to have conversations and certain things, and then it just doesn't, it doesn't feel like it actually happens or it doesn't feel like it gets to that. Oh, I'm starting to figure more out, and I think where this is, like, I feel like this platform is an opportunity to help with that because I don't. While I like certain things or aspects or ways things are growing, there are others where I'm like, okay, I'm very analytical. Thanks, daddy. So I'm always like, wait, let's check that. Like, we really thought that this was going to play out this way. Are we sure? Why are we so sure? Why do we. Why do we really think that's the right thing? So I've, like, questioned some of it a bit, but I also find that, like, I'm with a lot of friends who are very thinking this and, like, you know, not saying that those aspects of my identity don't matter and aren't a reality, it's just sometimes they're not the reality that I feel is at play in the moment.

[17:47] MARY ORTUNO: Right. Yeah, I, um. I got. I'm like you. I did. When I grew up, I feel like it was, it was a good time to grow up as far as just to be yourself and people being accepted for merit, not color or I genderism or whatever's going on. And so my lens has always been, hey, you're human being. Let's talk, you know, how can we help each other out? Let's make the world a better place type of deal. And to see these last few years where so many people are so upset and hurt and feeling judged by whatever color, race, you know, their gender. I'm like, have I been this blind? Like, when did this happen? I just. And part of me feels like it was created to divide us again because I feel there is a bigger power that doesn't want us to unite and doesn't want us to all be in common so that we can have these problems and not be successful. So I have a hard time with all these changes, for sure, because I just, it just caught me so off guard. And I have teenagers, children that, you know, I'm trying to raise as best I can, my husband and I can to give them confidence and strength so that they can be the next generation to take over. And this is a tough time, because I. Again, I don't like these pronouns and people being so confused about who they are. And we're catholic, so it's, hey, this is the way God made you. You're perfect. You're. You're this beautiful image, and you're here for a reason. And it just. It breaks my heart to see so many kids, especially the kids that just are so lost right now. And in Goochland, our small town of Goochland, that's just this beautiful community. I mean, we've had three or four middle school suicides, which is unheard of. And I do think a lot of it's the social media that, you know, and then these poor kids were trapped at home forever. But it's. It's a tough time, I think, for these kids. They're gonna be resilient. They're gonna be way more, you know, open to things that we weren't exposed to. But it is hard kind of navigating them through all this while at the same time me trying to understand what in the world is going on. But when you were growing up, what were politics like for you and your household? Did you were, was it open or did you even talk about it or there?

[21:20] MATTHEW GOFF: I didn't really feel like there was a lot of political discourse in my family growing up. I think we'd have occasional comments being made where there wasn't as much trust in some of the leaders of the government. There's ego at play, and, oh, well, of course they said that because they're getting all this money put behind them. I'd say there was, because we're essentially just a two party system in this country, and it was acknowledgment. There'd be moments of acknowledgement on both sides of the aisle of like, yeah, they've got a point there, or, I like this approach. And it was. So for me, it kind of felt like, well, why can't we find, like, the hybrid or the mix? And then there are other times where it was like, oh, this is like, it's just obvious. This is. This is just politics, and just ignore it. So I kind of. I kind of developed a, like, politics happens, and I didn't pay much attention. Like, I had a sense of civic duty and engaging and trying to be knowledgeable, but it was broad strokes, and I never really got into details, especially at the local level. I always paid more attention at the federal level. And it was. But that was just kind of like, that was what was on the news. And now it's become easier to know some things. So I pay a little more attention. But I'm still, I don't love it. I don't love politics. Like, there was a period where I was like, no, I'm apolitical. Like, I think politics is just a giant mess. I've grown from them in some ways to understand why some of it exists, purpose behind it. But I still think it's a mess.

[23:33] MARY ORTUNO: Yeah.

[23:35] MATTHEW GOFF: And so for me, it was, it's a, it's a new territory. That's, that's one arena sort of in life that I'm still learning, still seeing things where I'm like, oh, I like this from this party and I like this from this party and I don't like that. And I don't like that. And so I, like, struggle with aspects of it.

[23:56] MARY ORTUNO: Yeah.

[23:56] MATTHEW GOFF: How about you? How about growing up and nowadays, like, for your kids?

[24:04] MARY ORTUNO: So growing up was interesting because my father's side of the family have been in Richmond for generations, and my mom's side, she did have family from Virginia, but she grew up in New York. So my mom kind of had this more liberal mindset, and my dad was the conservative and, oh, what a mix those two were. They didn't, they didn't make it, by the way. Yeah, but, so, but we were always taught by every, I mean, I think that was just society, Washington, you don't talk about politics and you don't bring up religion. It's just always going to be touchy because people in America, we all have different kind of backgrounds. And so that was another eye opener these last few years that, oh, my gosh, you can get judged or canceled by, you know, who you voted for, who you believed. That just was, you know, like, what is going on? I mean, I felt like you were, you're saying that everyone, I think we were just sort of in the middle. You know, you could see, you know, you might lean one way or the other, but for the most part, everyone was in the middle. And we have definitely started to venture far this way or far that.

[25:37] MATTHEW GOFF: Yeah. You mentioned, like, folks not talking about it. One thing I've wondered, I'm curious what you think about this is, like, like, I grew up in a household that you don't talk about it, you don't talk about religion, you don't talk about politics, really. And, like, I grew up in a household where my dad was from New York City, a little more liberal jewish background. My mom grew up in a Presbyterian church community, and we were raised knowledgeable of both, but not, I wouldn't say we practiced either. And so for me, like, I sort of grew and developed my own kind of spiritual beliefs, but it was never talked about. Like, I never. It wasn't talked about, but now I feel like everything is talked about and everything. It's like. It's like the pendulum swung so far from this. My thoughts of, like, what's going on, where it's like, don't talk about it to now. Like, you should state every single thing about yourself to identify yourself so that we can then maybe find commonality or just some understanding and conversation. And I'm like, I don't even know how to explain someone what my beliefs are on some of this because I don't have the practice of talking about it. What are your thoughts on, like, how that played out in for you and sort of don't talk about these things.

[27:13] MARY ORTUNO: Well, I tell my children we're living in times where there's this horrible disease. It's called self centeredness. And I think social media, I remember the whole. When Facebook and all that was started, and I said, I'm. Oh, my goodness, that's kind of weird. You're just talking about yourself. It just seemed really weird to me. Like, okay. And then people started posting pictures of their food, and I was just about.

[27:40] MATTHEW GOFF: To say, you don't want to know what I had for lunch today.

[27:43] MARY ORTUNO: Come on.

[27:43] MATTHEW GOFF: It's like.

[27:46] MARY ORTUNO: And then the selfie, watching these young children sit there for, like, ten minutes, or adults now, you know, and getting every single pose that's a till. It's perfect. And I'll be looking around going, what? I mean, that's just so weird. And that's what this whole social media experiment has brought out. I think it's this narcissism, self centered society just entrenched on everyone. And for those of us that haven't gone that route yet, we're just, you know, still kind of like what's going on. But, yeah, I think that's what I think it is. It's just people are consumed with wanting attention and wanting to show or whatever, and it's become almost like you have to do it to fit in or to have that, hey, look at me moment out there, and everyone's fighting for it, and I. Everyone has an opinion. Oh, my word, I I'll pop on. I pop on Facebook now. But I hate. I don't like it. It's just a horrible space. And there, you know, used to be, let's show pictures of family or, you know, just. Just a way to kind of stay in touch. But now it's become this town hall. Everybody throw out your political opinions and then start arguing, and. And nastiness comes out.

[29:20] MATTHEW GOFF: Yeah. I stop social media. Like, I have profiles, but I don't post anything.

[29:26] MARY ORTUNO: Yeah.

[29:27] MATTHEW GOFF: And I'll check them for, like, 510 minutes a day to see, to your point, that connection with some folks. And when they post something about, like, a special family event or something happening, I'll react to that, but otherwise, I don't engage because there was a time where my social media would have differing views being stated, and I could use it to actually gain perspective. I'm like, oh, I hadn't thought of it that way, or, okay, I see why that can be upsetting, and now it's way less of that. I don't know if it's because, and I doubt it's because people aren't posting. Like, I'm confident people are posting their, their thoughts, but, like, the system doesn't show that to me anymore because I wasn't previously reacting to it like it was.

[30:23] MARY ORTUNO: The algorithm hasn't gotten.

[30:24] MATTHEW GOFF: Yeah, yeah. And so, so that's something that I've always felt interesting. But there was one thing. So from your, when I first read your bio, I was curious about, and you mentioned the, like, self centeredness, and then, like, you did peace Corps. And I've. I've heard this idea of potential. I mean, one flavor of the idea is requiring all young adults to participate in something like Peace Corps for a year to try to get some of those experiences. So having actually, like, I didn't have that experience. Like, I consider myself fortunate that I was in a life situation to go get certain experiences and be selected for certain experiences during college that I think helped me grow and learn and identify myself, but also how I want to engage in the world and with others. But I recognize, like, I was very fortunate to be in that position, and I'm curious, having actually gotten to live the Peace Corps experience, like, what are your thoughts on that being an avenue? Would it help?

[31:36] MARY ORTUNO: Yeah, I I mean, I'm. I've actually written to some. Some of our politics and congressmen and senators to suggest something along that lines, where we can have a discussion about something that, that could bring us all together, could be some sort of service, whether that's military or something like the peace Corps or, you know, we have. What is it called for, the. There's a peace corps for the United States where you can actually go and serve communities and. Yeah, I think. I think we should try something like that. I mean, we're doing all these other crazy experiments. Why not do something? You have to serve your country again and, you know, do something that gains our respect back for it. I feel like that's something we've definitely lost, is being grateful for our country, being grateful for all of us that we have here, the people that got us here. And, you know, in my small experience here in life, service is always, always a good thing.

[32:52] MATTHEW GOFF: Yeah.

[32:53] MARY ORTUNO: You know, we do it in the Boy Scouts, and. And it's amazing what these kids come back with, just helping out with a dinner or going and fixing something in their community. I mean, it gives you a sense of pride, gives you a sense of being and, yeah, we should be doing more of it. And if I don't know about enforcing it, I can see where that'll be. Another big fight.

[33:21] MATTHEW GOFF: Yeah, that's. That's kind of what I've wondered, too, is, like, how I could see how some common experiences like that at a sort of formative time in life can help potentially influence things in a certain way. And what I would hope would be a good way. But I think we gotta, like, test it, and time will tell. But I also, like. I know so I grew up in a navy town, and my grandfather was in the navy. Like, I'm very appreciative of our armed services and the folks that serve, but I always knew growing up, that wasn't the life for me that would, like, I always felt like if I had been forced into it, it would have been bad. Like, it actually would have been a bad situation.

[34:10] MARY ORTUNO: Right.

[34:11] MATTHEW GOFF: And so that's something, when I hear that idea of where I see, like, other countries force their citizens as they grow up into that, I understand it to an extent, but then I'm also like, but how do we balance, like, that's a broad stroke of make everyone do it. And I know for myself, like, that would have. Could I have done it and survived? Yes, but do I ever think it would have been the best thing for me? Not an armed services, maybe a peace corps or something like that. So I feel like there has to be some selection. Variety in there. Yeah. It's that balance of giving enough choice, enough good choice, that it's still, I feel, still drives in the general direction. And then. And then I should. I personally have just struggled with. It seems like even if something's driving in the right direction, like, if it does, if it's not exactly aligned with, we'll just say what the other side of the aisle is, whether it's politics, religion, anything of it. It's like, you get. You get the hard nose. And I'm like, I don't think that's always helpful. Like, there are certain things. I think there should be a hard no on. Like, I think there are certain things that are just holistically. Like, that's bad. That's a no. But I feel like there's too many that are being set like that, as opposed to allowing some of the nuance or variants to show up. And I feel like we can't find out some of that unless we go explore a little bit further and then say, you know what? Okay, I think we do want to rein that in, or, okay, we acknowledge it exists, but it's not maybe as defining as the world is making it seem right now.

[36:04] MARY ORTUNO: Yeah, I wanted to ask. Go back to some. What we were talking about before, about the pronouns, just because right before COVID I was applying to VCU, and that was the first time I'd heard cisgender. And I said I had to look.

[36:24] MATTHEW GOFF: At what I did, too. I saw a bunch of my friends posting it, and I was like. I was like, what did I miss out on? Like, someone teach me? So I looked it up because that's how we operate now.

[36:37] MARY ORTUNO: Well, I was. I thought it was interesting, though, that they didn't have male or female on the application at all. There were these fancy words for everything. And I even wrote to the dean because I said, you know, I understand about making everyone feel comfortable, but now you've cut off a big chunk of people that identify as male and female. So, I mean, what are your. You said you kind of feel like something you have to sort of say now, or you just. You're just saying it.

[37:12] MATTHEW GOFF: Because in certain contexts. So, like, with the pronouns at one, at work, there was like a. Well, this is how you can now update your. The name on your screen, and you can add your pronouns to the end. And it was, like, encouraged. Like, everyone add your pronouns, and then it was like, okay, well, let's not force it, because maybe some people are still figuring out their pronouns, and some people just, like, don't even want to engage in the pronoun discussion. And so, like, seeing that pendulum swing. And for me, at times, I do have it posted. I say, like, the. My pronouns are he, him, his. And it's just at times for me just to make it a point of, like, so when you want to refer to me, I mean, typically, I just try to use people's names. Like, I would just say Mary Ortuno because that's typically a clear identifier and doesn't wade into all those waters. But at times, if folks want to know, like, how to refer to me and they don't want to assume something, I just make it known this is what it is, just to make it easy. And I don't require anyone to tell me anything back and just saying, this is who I am. Use my pronouns when you want to refer to me. And to your point, I do think they were figuring some of that out, like, in applications at the time, I worked in higher education applications, actually. And there's a question of, like, how do we change the data systems? Because everything was set up to just, you can either be male or female. And then it was like, well, now we need applications that allow folks to say other, and how do we make that technology accepting of that? And then just because you can make the technology accept it, there's still the whole, how do you engage? And the views and everything that comes with it. But that was, for me, was like, it was kind of. It came to me more than I was seeking it out as something. And then I said, okay, well, I'll. I'll join the conversation around this. And this is how I engage. Sometimes I put it clearly out there, and other times, it's just not a. Not a thing.

[39:47] MARY ORTUNO: Yeah.

[39:48] MATTHEW GOFF: Like, I definitely had conversations wherever, it didn't matter at all.

[39:53] MARY ORTUNO: Right. Yeah, it's. It's. It's a slippery slope, the way I see it. Just, I, you know, part of me wants to please others because I am a people pleaser, and I want, you know, I don't. I don't want people to be uncomfortable, but then part of me says, wait a minute, now I'm engaging in something that might not be healthy. I mean, especially kids. This is what scares me about these children being confused. And. And it's also kind of a disciplinary thing. I mean, now you're letting children make all these decisions that I don't think they're capable of really making yet.

[40:43] MATTHEW GOFF: Yeah.

[40:44] MARY ORTUNO: You know, they haven't had the life experiences. They're not fully mature. But we're engaging in this whole, let's pretend, or it may not be pretend, but they don't really know. They just don't know. And we're. We're just letting them kind of free for all with this. This new language and then sharing bathrooms at school and people getting upset and parents, you know, no one knows what to do. And then board meetings, getting out of control. This is what I'm going through, you know?

[41:19] MATTHEW GOFF: Yeah, I've seen videos of intense, intense words being exchanged. That's my softening of it.

[41:28] MARY ORTUNO: Yeah, it's a crazy time for sure.

[41:33] MATTHEW GOFF: I definitely hear you on that aspect of, like, kids. Sometimes kids are too young to know or, and we might be, I wonder if we're asking too much of them to try to figure some of that out. But at the same time, I don't want to not acknowledge that they are figuring it out and they might need some vocabulary to help them figure it out. To the point, to the earlier point. Like, I didn't really talk about politics growing up. Like, I still have to look up certain political definitions to know, like, am I progressive? Am I liberal? Am I on when it comes to this topic? Like, I still have to look it up because I didn't talk about it. So if someone had talked about it, maybe that would have helped me in the long run. And so when I look at some kids, I'm like, I'm not trying to push you to figure this out necessarily or go in a certain way, but also if you feel a certain something, I want to be able to give you some sort of vocabulary to help you with it and to acknowledge. And to acknowledge, like, this is, this is tough. Like, let's be clear. The adults in the room don't have it all figured out. And I think, I think you realize that more as you grow up. But, like, you can't tell a five year old that. You can't deny. They're just not equipped for that. And that's something that, finding that balance and being able to support them, I think technology has made a lot more of this more available to us, and I think we're trying to, it's kind of overload and more than we've had in the past to figure it out. And so then it's like, which one do you want to figure out today? Which one you want to invest in today? It's like, well, hold on. Like, I'm not a five year old. I am actually a 35 year old. And it's still a bit much for me to figure it all out.

[43:32] MARY ORTUNO: It is.

[43:33] MATTHEW GOFF: But I'm, I'm glad some, I'm glad we're in a spot where we can have that conversation because there are places in the world where you so much as whisper it and your life's at risk. And, like, I think that's the, that's, for me, is like, we are in a situation where we should appreciate that we can have the conversation and try to figure some more of these things out. And I think we need to be a little accepting that we're probably not going to figure it all out in our lifetime, which is hard to accept at times. But that's where I struggle with, let's take all of this out and don't let anyone talk about this or don't mention that. Or I like, well, no, I kind of feel like there needs to be some of that, some awareness and learning of it. And then, I don't mean, I don't, people have to find out what's healthy for them. Sometimes I think broad strokes or two hard stances are taken of like, no, don't discuss this. Don't ever allow this. Don't ever put a gay teacher in my classroom for my kid. And it's, it's like, okay, but that may have actually nothing to do with their ability to teach your kids some of the other essential things they need to grow up to be successful in our society. And so I just, I struggle with, with those. And which topics really get the push to the forefront.

[45:06] MARY ORTUNO: Yeah, there's a lot going on, too, where, where we want certain topics to be so loud. And the people like, you know, who, for example, me, that I had a family member who did the, you know, started using pronouns, but no one I didn't know. To me, she was a little girl and it wasn't the, it wasn't my niece that got upset. It was the parents, and they came after me full, you know, you have to use these pronouns. You know, this, this is whatever the pronouns were. And this is where I think we're struggling as a society is. You know, you have to have some grace and mercy for people and sit down and that's the time to talk about it. And hey, this is, it's the education.

[46:05] MATTHEW GOFF: Without, like since I mentioned I grew up with a jewish background father who I would categorize as atheist now, or at least agnostic, but more likely atheist, and a mother from a presbyterian background. And my wife grew up Catholic and I grew up none of the above. And it's like, when can we just have the conversation and help teach me some of, about them? And then, and not necessarily push me that, like, I have to pick one or be one of them. And because that's something I've always negatively responded to. It's like when someone came up and was like, I'm going to convert you to this. I'm going to get you to always use your pronouns or I'm going to this, I was like, nope, nope, nope, nope, not, not that. Yeah. And it just really closes me off, or I close. I close off in a reaction to that, because you have to, just to your point, like, have the grace to, like, not everyone's going to know all of it. Like, I'm going to say something wrong at some point because I'm still learning and figuring some of this out, and I don't know where I stand on all of it. And I appreciate that some folks have already figured it out and done their learning and decided where they're at, but I'm not there on that. And I know that can be uncomfortable, but I need, personally, I just feel like folks should be a little more accepting. I don't know how to get there. That's. That's the.

[47:49] MARY ORTUNO: Yeah.

[47:50] MATTHEW GOFF: To help with that.

[47:55] MARY ORTUNO: So what do you think you'll most likely remember about your conversation partner in this conversation?

[48:11] MATTHEW GOFF: I think for me, it's helpful to see. To, like, hear your perspective on some of the sort of hot topics of, and, like, the situations you've been in around them to better recognize kind of, this isn't, um, whatever is decided is. Or someone knows. Like, you mentioned with your, I think it was nice. And they're like, well, I didn't. I didn't know that. And then it kind of comes on strong and that, like, even though it's out there and, you know, I see all my friends posting about pronouns and stuff. Like, it's not pervasive. It's not everywhere, and it's not a, I think it's not as given as some folks might think it is of a topic or a known subject. And just the reacting to that. I think that and the IAP score idea and, like, the balance there, like, hearing your experience and, I mean, you met your husband through. Through that experience. Like, I think it has some very positive upsides to it. So while I wouldn't require strictly military, I think some mix could be a good. I'm curious, like, what else could that be? Or, like, you mentioned one, like, even just within the US, because I understand going abroad may be a big step for some folks.

[49:56] MARY ORTUNO: Mm hmm.

[49:57] MATTHEW GOFF: How about you?

[49:59] MARY ORTUNO: Yeah, no, same thing. It's just, it's nice to see that we want to see something better with our country, something to bring people together. And I think that's why we're on this call. We're, you know, wanting to see that there is something that can unite all of us again and see through differences and have those conversations that have stopped happening. So I've enjoyed it. It's been nice meeting you, Matthew Goff

[50:32] MATTHEW GOFF: Yeah. I definitely appreciate it. Mary Ortuno I thank you for opening up and sharing on different topics.

[50:39] MARY ORTUNO: Yeah, you as well.