Maxwell Penders and Maria Terry

00:00 Hi.

00:00 My name is Max. I am 20 years old. I live on grounds at UVA. What's the date today?

00:10 It's December 7.

00:11 Yeah. Okay, so the date's December 7, and my conversation partner's name is Maria.

00:20 Hi. My name is Maria. I am 42 years old, and I live in Charlottesville, Virginia. Today's date is December 7, and my conversation partner's name is Max. All right, well, thank you both again for coming here to have a one small step conversation. The first question I always start with is asking, how did you find out about one small step and what made you want to sit down for this conversation today?

00:50 So I. I don't know how I found out about one small. It may have been, like, a ad or something on Instagram, but I am really. I really enjoy talking with people about politics and their background, and I generally do that online and from people in really distant areas. And so getting to talk to someone who's from the local community is really exciting.

01:29 I heard about one small step through a friend, colleague. She introduced me to the program by way of sharing a resource in the university. I've been involved in some dei work and having, you know, we talk about having genuine, truthful, vulnerable conversations often. And so that's how I was introduced to the program, and I thought, it sounds like a good thing, and I want to be a part of it. Awesome. Well, the last question I'll ask to kind of get things started for you is we have all of our participants take a moment to put themselves in their partner's shoes. So you've got a copy of what your partner wrote to introduce themselves when they first signed up for the program. So I'm going to have each of you take a minute to read out what your partner wrote as written. And once you've each done that, if there are any immediate thoughts or questions that jump out to you, I encourage you to ask them, and then you can kind of transition into that kind of formative memories portion. So I'm going to pass it over to you now to read out the bios.

02:41 Yeah. So your name is Maria Terry, born in Pedro Sula, Honduras. Born there and came to the United States at six years old. You're the oldest of four, and being a big sister shaped who you are today. Your parents are devout, born again christians, and their service to the church and the community Brooklyn, put you in a position to be responsible for your siblings. And then it cuts off at the end there. But it says, being in undocumented.

03:17 Oh, it cut off.

03:18 Yeah.

03:18 Oh, no. Hold on, let me. I can read the pen. 1 second. Or if you have it on your phone.

03:29 Oh, I turned off my phone.

03:30 Oh, no, that's fine. Give me 1 second. Here we go. The last sentence reads, being an undocumented immigrant during my childhood and early adulthood made me resilient and the advocate I am today. So, Max, you're a UVA student from outside of Philadelphia who's deeply passionate about politics, especially concerning governmental structure and social structure. You're a computer engineering major, which is a result of enjoying the understanding of things from their core components up. Awesome. So where does your passion come from? Like, where do you think it originated from in regards to politics and government structure?

04:27 I think that I've always found it really incredible how people can all have their own opinions and ideas and motivations, and we're all able to exist together in this society, and it ends up working out like, we're able to go to a restaurant and there's food there that we can purchase, and there's all these larger systems that no one person is able to understand in its entirety. And so I find trying to grasp at pieces of that are really powerful and seeing which ones can be more effective and less effective.

05:18 That's awesome.

05:25 When you say your parents are born again christians, what impact has religion had on you that you maybe don't think it had on your parents or vice versa?

05:42 That's really good. I think the effect that it had on me is that I sometimes resent it because their level of devotion to it was so big that I think it's both admirable, and I commend them for all the work and the help that they provided to the community that we lived in. But at the same time, I felt like it took away from our family, in our family time. So I go back and forth because, you know, as a child, I wish that we did things as a family that are just unique to our family structure or nucleus, and it didn't have anything to do with the church, but everything revolved around the church. So, you know, I go back and forth, but it. It really had a huge impact on me that they would both positively and negatively that they were so devoted to their faith. Yeah. What? So with this passion that you have about government and its structure and sort of social structure, do you think it's going to drive something in you as you continue to pursue your passions and education? Do you think it's going to carve a path for you to work in those spaces or learn more about those spaces?

07:20 I think I get really excited about a lot of different things, and there's just so many cool things out there to learn about. And so for me, it's not necessarily that it's where I am going to be putting my time in when I'm working. But it's a part of me that I want to explore and will make me, I think, an informed voter in the future that can contribute to society through that mechanism.

07:59 I think it's admirable that at your young age, you care about being an informed voter, because I don't think I even thought about that when I was 20. And maybe it has to do with my upbringing, the fact that I was not born in this country and that I had no idea who were our political leaders, you know, in the late nineties. You know, I have no clue or I don't think I can recall who was president when I graduated high school in 1998. So, yeah, I just think it's so amazing that as a young person that you already want to have that information, because I think it's important to know, and I've only come to care a lot as an, you know, as a really, as an adult, like, really, you know, well into my thirties and early forties, where I really started to, you know, stop and pay attention. So I think it's really admirable that you're doing that now at the age of that you're in now.

09:06 What do you think made it so that it wasn't something you were interested in when you were younger?

09:16 You know, I think it was because I think I was undocumented. I think it's because English was not my first language and I really didn't see, like, television in English or, you know, I just think that because, you know, as an immigrant, I don't really have a voice or have the, I guess, a right to vote or to be involved in things that are going to impact our communities or our government. I think that's one of the reasons why I really didn't know. I didn't have to know or I felt like it didn't apply to me. So, you know, I think that's why probably I was completely unaware. I mean, I'm pretty sure that during those years of my early adulthood, I probably knew who was president, but I felt like it didn't apply to me, you know? So I think that's why I was so unaware when I was younger. What is your earliest memory of politics?

10:34 Um, so I've always been kind of a, like an argumentative person, and I thought it was fun to, like, disagree with my parents, and it was something that they were fine, like, arguing with me about things. And so when I had a friend at this kind of, like, academic summer camp that I went to who was talking about communism, and it was something that was interesting for me to engage with because I hadn't really engaged with political thought before, apart from sort of just the normal liberal thought process of, like, my parents and a lot of the people in the community I was in. And so it was something that changed the way I looked at thought and other people. And the, it made me question if the way that we're currently doing things is, like, the best way to be doing things.

11:57 That's hard, because, like, you know, I was undocumented all the way up to the age of 20. And right before I turned 21, I got my green card. So the process is super long, and that's, you know, a chip on my shoulder on how we have to do that better. But, you know, that's another conversation. So I was about to turn 21 when I got my green card, and you wouldn't believe was the first thing I did. As soon as I had my green card, I joined the army, which is crazy, right? So it was right before the war in Iraq started. And I thought, what did I do? And what war are we fighting? And I don't understand any of it, but it gave me such a passion for this country to be able to have that kind of experience. I felt so much pride to wear the United States army uniform and to defend our nation and its constitution. And I love it. And to this day, every time we get up for the singing of the national anthem, I tear up every time because of the commitment that I made to this country. So I think it's so interesting that I don't have half the background or knowledge probably, that you have, having so much interest in these things as a young age. But I think what brought me closer to this country and sort of made me passionate about, you know, being in a better place in our communities and doing things differently also was because I enrolled. You know, I joined the US army when I was 21, 22.

14:02 And do you think that you have a closer connection emotionally with the american community as a whole versus, like, a smaller community, which it feels like for me a lot of the time, my closest communities are the smaller ones. Is that the case?

14:30 So I married a guy who is all about public service, and he loves government, and it's a, you know, you know, the institution and how it functions, and he's always told me that you can make change or have impact in small spaces. You don't have to have a big platform. And so I feel connected to my community. I feel connected to what's happening, you know, in Charlottesville right now, and what can I be a part of to help, you know, bring change or bring something good to our community, whether that's volunteering or whether that's helping just one young person or helping someone find resources, I feel that any time that I can do that in a small space, I feel I'm okay. You know, I don't have the background of someone who's, you know, either been in a political family or, you know, political background. But I do care of our lives as Americans, my community, and I think I want to be able to make change in those small places. So I feel more connected to the small, smaller environment than the broader. It's hard to think about the broader. Right, because you're like, what am I going to do? Who am I going to help? Or what kind of change will I make, you know, when you think about the bigger picture. But I think if we can do good things even in our small spaces, I think that goes a long way. What about you?

16:19 I think the way that I try to engage with the communities around me politically is I tried to. I had, when I was in high school, most of for the middle part of high school, I was fairly conservative. And so one of the things that was what I realized once I've become much more liberal, as I've kind of my senior year of high school and then starting college, I have tried to talk with people in high school in similar positions to where I was and try to kind of help them see what I saw to change my mind. And I think that I've been able to impact change because I know, at the very least, what some subset of people are experiencing. And so I'm able to communicate with them through that medium and that shared.

17:43 Experience, if I can jump in here, because I think this is leading into a very interesting conversation about ideology and how you place yourself currently. There's one question about these early memories that I always like to ask, which is, has there been an influential person in your life who has taught you something that you still carry with you today? And before we dive deeper into ideology, if you might share a little bit more about that question, I think my dad is the most influential person in my life. I admire him so much. When we lived in Honduras, he was an accountant, but when we moved to the US, he was nothing. He had to, you know, come work in a factory, whatever he could get. And so he had so much drive just for us that he would do anything so that we could be in a better position than him. So that taught me, like, work ethic. That taught me, you know, to be, you know, resilient and to endure things, you know? And I just, I feel that he's my biggest driver and even to this day, like, my dad is in his mid seventies, and I can call him, and he's so smart. And I wish that he could have had access to the things I wound up having access to, but I just admire him for all those things, you know, putting himself last and, and moving us forward.

19:44 I had in, for all of high school, I had an advisor who I was super close with. And one of the things that really was impactful was his ability to communicate with me in the way that I needed to be communicated with, which was very directly and honestly. And one of the things that I learned through him was the ability to work on the type of communication that people, like, work with each individual person, to basically communicate with them in the way that they are comfortable with. And it's something that I think has made my communication skills much better and has improved what I'm able to get out of conversation, because it's more enriching and fulfilling when people can discuss things in a way that they are able to share the most. From.

21:12 When you talked about sharing, you know, when you sort of switch from that conservative mindset to, am I correct? By saying more liberal mindset and you wanted to share with others how you arrived at that? What sort of prompted you to do that sharing? Sometimes I feel like it's hard to have tough discussions, right. Because sometimes I feel scared to share really conservative views. I have some conservative views and I have some liberal views. Right. As a person, as an individual, you know, how did you come about sharing sort of what you just experienced and how and why you wanted to share that?

22:05 It felt like to me that when I had many of the conservative views, when I would talk to people with whom were liberal, then if they had been very, if they had always been liberal and or hadn't really considered the things that they were thinking about. And this includes, like, my teachers in high school, it was very much answers that came from. They already reached their conclusion, and so then they were just trying to justify it. And having a conversation where you have thought through the positions you hold and the kind of ideas you've had, and at the very least, kind of thought critically about why. It's a unique sort of conversation. And so it was much more exciting to me to be engaging when it felt like we could be going through stuff for maybe the first time. And so I could feel like I was helping someone, even if they still disagreed with me at the end. At the very least, think through, like, why they thought things. And so, yeah, I think it really helped to be able to see the impact I was making.

23:46 That's pretty awesome. I try to have conversations like that, at least with my parents, who I feel sometimes are so conservative that they don't see sort of how, like, one view can really impact so many people negatively. And, you know, I find myself, you know, trying to explain, you know, mom, dad, like, you know, it really matters for people if they can make their own decisions about certain things, right? Whether it be abortion or who they want to be with, and, you know, all those things. But when you have that religious background, it's like, well, it's this or nothing, right? Or it's like, you believe this, and that's it. And so we get into, like, really awful discussions. So sometimes I find myself, like, not even wanting to talk about it, right. Because even though those same beliefs that they have, a lot of them are true for me, and they will be always. I feel like my core, I grew up in those values and belief systems. But I think, you know, being in the environment that they brought me to, you know, a new country, being among so many different people, having served in the military with people from all different kinds of backgrounds, I can't see myself thinking in just one way or something, being so obsolete. You know, I have to say to myself, like, what's good for everyone? And, you know, how does everyone have good experiences? You know, someone that doesn't have the same access or someone that doesn't feel good in their own skin, they're not having the same experience as someone else. So how do we get to all be comfortable and have good experiences as individuals and be true to who we are? But I just felt like I have. Like, I even have a hard time having those discussions because, you know, one, they're my parents, and two, there's, you know, they're so. And I respect them for their faith, but, you know, I wish it wasn't so close minded, you know? Yeah. So I. How about you? You see that second section about, like, kind of ideology and those bullet points of questions there? Maybe start with the first one and kind of ask your. I always have our participants try to ask each other so that's not me asking you, but if you want to read the first one out and then you can kind of work your way through those, I think you've touched on some of it already.

26:42 Okay, so could you briefly describe in your own words your personal political beliefs?

26:49 That's so hard. I believe that I lean towards being a Democrat today before I didn't. And I feel that we really need to. I believe that we need to be in a place where people have access. People can be who they want to be and that we should try to look at people for who they are and they're human version versus anything else. Like for example, like people that are immigrants are looked at like, you know, that the way sometimes people perceive immigrants really affected me my whole life. You know, because you don't belong here, you know, this is not your country. This, you know, you need to learn our language, all those things. Right? It really impacted me heavily. And so I think, you know, that I really would love to be in a world in a mindset where we can all have access, we can all be true to who we are, and, you know, we can change sort of those negative mindsets that sometimes exist across, you know, our country. So for you, could you describe in your own words, your personal political beliefs?

28:28 Yeah. One of the things that is really impressive to me is the way that a lot of the kind of functions and structures of capitalism seem to work really nicely for kind of generating the wealth that people need to survive and the resources we need. But I think that there's a lot of problems that come out of it. And I think part of it comes from, I don't really see people as having as much free agency as we all like to think. And so I think there's a lot of things in our society that are really addictive and hard to systems that are hard to escape. And so I think it's our responsibility to fix some of those systems to, to help make sure that people are able to kind of take actions themselves and have the greatest ability to succeed.

29:57 Was there a specific moment in your life that helped shaped your beliefs?

30:04 I don't think I really have specific moments. I think it's things like this where it's conversations with other people. I think each and every one kind of adds on to my understanding of the world around me. And as I try to understand it more and more, I can come to different conclusions based on what I'm seeing. And so it's not just one thing, but it's the sum of all these little things put together, I think.

30:38 I agree. It's definitely, for me, I feel like it's a combination of experiences, moments lived that are, you know, like, I used to be one way, you know, like, very conservative, you know, veteran military person, and then I'm not every military person. It's conservative. But, you know, I was just like, no, this is just the way it is versus, like, meeting new people, just like you said, and, like, having different conversations with people and they come from different backgrounds and really allowing that to, you know, help you think. I agree. I feel like that's sort of what has helped me shaped my beliefs now more as an adulthood, is sort of being around different individuals from different lived experiences. Do you ever feel misunderstood by people who with different beliefs than you?

31:49 Yeah, I think it can be really difficult because a lot of the way that I approach things is in a small, concrete change. And so I think there's a lot of presence of populism and different thought processes that can make it feel like big changes have to happen all at once to kind of make. Make the things happen that people want to see happen. And it can be really hard to express that the way I see things without kind of making an appeal to any big change, because it can be hard to communicate to that, to someone who already kind of sees an answer. Yeah. How about for you?

33:01 Yeah, I think I feel misunderstood all the time because of sort of the. A lot of the more important people in my life come from the religious background, and, you know, they. I feel like it's what's biblically in the Bible, and that's just how it goes. And so everything else outside of that is. It's a big no. So, for me, I. You know, I don't engage in these conversations often, and I feel like I should more because sometimes I feel scared to talk about it because of how different my views are now, even though I consider myself a spiritual person, a person of faith, but I'm scared to say, you know what? But I don't agree with that. And so I would feel like someone would misunderstand. I would feel misunderstood. My parents don't understand why they say it to me, like, flat out, like, that's not what I raised. That's not how I raised you or that's not what I taught you. But I'm like, that's not the world we live in today. And I believe those scriptures were written for another group of people, and we're a different group of people today. And so we just all have to agree to disagree. Could I ask, since you've both mentioned this, and sometimes I think it's what we have. A lot of people who come into the studio talk about having an evolution of their belief systems, and it sounds like yours were kind of similar in the trajectory. But I'm curious if you could maybe elaborate a little bit on what those kind of the views you held previously in a little bit more, or like any specifics that are particularly important to you and discuss a little bit about that. And I have one more question, but I'll hold off on that for now. But that's, yeah. If there's anything specific that you used to believe that you could share about. And maybe I'm curious if there's any commonalities or differences in what you both experienced.

35:29 So I think when I was a conservative, and I was conservative for a little bit, and then I became more libertarian, but still generally pretty conservative without, I've never had the religious aspect to it, and I've never, I wasn't raised religious, and I've never been religious. But I think one of the things that's really been impacted is, and this is something I think you had touched on, is understanding that people can have really different and really kind of unique experiences with how they interact with the world. And the same exact society that maybe I'm in, someone else is going to interact with it in a totally different way that I won't be able to understand without talking to them. And so some of the social issues for me were felt like, or I feel now like it came from a place of not wanting or not being able to hear how other people were seeing things and were, at the very least, not really respecting that way.

37:12 For me, it was just, you know, when you come here, when you come to this country, you know, I think, at least for my experience in my family, it was to work hard. And so, like, where I lived in New York, it was very, there's a lot of programs in New York City for different kinds of people with different needs. And you, you know, so I grew up with thinking, well, I don't need, like, social services or, like, you know, specific things that the government pays or the state pays for you, you know, like food stamps or any of those things, those programs, you know, you know, just promote, you know, a lack, you know, there's no need to work if you have those programs right or you don't have to care, you could just get these benefits. And so I was, in, my mindset was really narrowed up in that regard. Like, you know, you have to work hard? No, you have to earn. Because I, we came here, we working hard. That's all we got to do. But the purpose of those things are for, you know, different reasons. And so, you know, I was always against having, like, you know, really big programs like that or, you know, abortion rights, right? Like that came from my, my religious background. I, I was pro life, you know, and that was it. And it's a sin to have an abortion. And so, you know, really conservative views in that way. And they mostly stemmed for, because of faith with the, you know, capitalistic views and the need to, you know, only the wealthy people, you know, benefit this or that. You know, those kinds of sort of topics didn't I always thought, like, why are we so concern after my changes, I was like, why were we so conservative? Like, none of those things benefit us, but those kinds of things is where I came out of after, like we talked earlier of meeting different people and how things impacted them differently. Like, when I met my husband, you know, he believes in those programs, right? They're there for a reason. And he said to me, Maria, my mom needed to be on it for a year when my dad left. And so when you hear it like that, you're like, wow, you know, we really need to have programs like this in place. Or, you know, so you hear the story of someone who, you know, an unfortunate reason caused them to have an abortion. And so when you start hearing people's difference perspective, I feel like it opened me up to really just think outside of what I was just looking at or the tunnel vision that I had and allowed me to see what other people were either living or expressing through their own lives. You know, I feel like that's what helped change sort of that mindset that I used to have that I felt was really narrow minded or close minded. Yeah. Have you ever experienced doubt in your political beliefs?

41:07 I think I try to always have doubt about my, how correct I am about things. And I think that I can, I try really hard to honestly kind of consider what people are saying if they're disagreeing because I think it can be helpful at this, but I think it can also be unhelpful at other times. I really enjoy being, like, correct on things and feeling like, I know I understand what's happening. And so that can, it definitely helps me try to doubt what I believe because, you know, it might, it might suck to have to kind of reevaluate and come to new conclusions, but in the long run, it's really helpful and it makes me feel like, as a person, I'm growing, and that's really important to me.

42:30 I think. I don't feel like I necessarily, like, I wouldn't call it doubt, but I don't shy away from things that are different from what I believe in, you know, whether it's conservative or not conservative. I try to look at all. Look at it all, like, does, you know, a new law or, you know, a change, does. Does it impact in a positive way? Will it bring good things? You know, regardless of which side it's coming from, you know, I like to look at it all. I just, I'm not. I don't feel so divided, like it has to be one thing or the other, because I feel like I respect, you know, different positions. I just. I feel like I can respect you. If you were completely different than me and you said whatever you wanted to say, I would hear you. I would make you feel heard, because that's important to the human person, to the human being. And so for me, I just. I look at it all, and if it's gonna be good for us all, then I'm all for it. But I'm not stuck. I wouldn't call it doubt. I just would explore, just and see what it can bring to us as a group, as a society. So I wanna jump in. We're coming kind of towards the closing parts of this kind of conversation. But one thing I think you both have in common is some associated with Uva as an employee and then as a student and kind of pivoting away from some of the questions on the guide, I'm just curious if you could share a little bit. And Max, especially as a kind of a somewhat new student, what your experience has been like at UVA. And also, I know in your bio, you mentioned that you're saying computer science. Is that correct?

44:45 Computer engineering.

44:46 Computer engineering. And so kind of like, what drove you to do that? So a couple of those thoughts to address.

44:58 So I think that the advisor I had mentioned, who was really impactful to me, is the reason I am at UVA, because he had gone through UVA. And so that's what put it kind of on my radar when I was looking at colleges. And Uva has been, like, really, really nice. And I didn't think I wanted such a large community in college, but it's been really good because of just the amount of people allows me to find different groups than. Than I would have been able to otherwise. And so I'm able to engage with a lot of different parts of myself through all these different communities. And so I think, yeah, Uva does a great job of allowing people to do that and provides the platform that we need to do that.

46:16 So I came to Charlottesville because my husband got a job opportunity here. And one of my first sort of impressions of Charlottesville was that it was not diverse. But then I realized that it is diverse. It's just that not everyone is in the same spaces as me. But I quickly found out that the city is diverse. After two years of being here, I got hired at UVA. I'm an HR, and I love what I do. I love people, and I love working with people and making things better for the experience our employees have. You know, HR goes back and forth between the organization and the employee, but I'm also very passionate about the employee and the employee experience. And most recently, I'm really passionate about the latino population at UVA, especially when it comes to staff and faculty and how underrepresented it is and how people from latino backgrounds wish that there was more representation at UVA, especially, like, in the faculty area. And that's sort of like where I've, you know, I've been in, and that I've been in that space recently, trying to bring more attention to the fact that we need to do a little bit better in that area. But it's been a great organization to work for. I have really enjoyed it. So.

48:05 What do you. Is there anything that, like, as a student, like, we can do to help advocate for, like, a greater representation in the faculty and staff?

48:23 I think that. I think that even sharing the fact that there's a gap or that the lag exists more, even from different students, like, different students from different backgrounds, not just the latino students, I think would create a huge impact. I was recently at the Bolivar network's alum, sort of celebration of their 25 year anniversary, and there were three people that graduated from UVA in, like, 1989, and they were, like, the only three Latinos at UVA. And I was like, oh, my gosh, you know, how special. But there still continues to be that fight to bring more attention to the latino community, because even as alums, they don't feel as important or highlighted as other alums would feel. So I think even just talking about it, you know, any student from a different background and sort of elevate that, why don't we have that here? I think would go a long way because there's students that want to come here from, you know, latino background. My cousin's daughter wants to be a UVA student, so bad. And so I feel like even if we just are open about it and just discuss the fact that we don't have a Latino dean at UVA or we haven't had one in a very long time, I think it's important to bring. Where are the students going to find that connection? Even staff? Because even someone like me, I think in my department, I think the percentage of Latinos, even in my own department, is less than 3%. I think maybe under 3%. So that's, you know, it's important to bring that to the attention of people with some influence, you know? But I think there's a desire to change. You know, I'm hopeful, because our community is changing, too, even in Charlottesville. The latino population in Charlottesville is growing. I work at the hospital, and I recently learned that we get a request for interpreters to translate Spanish to Spanish. There's a request of 200 people a day. Huge. And so it just shows how much the central part of Virginia, how much the community is changing. So, you know, gotta keep pushing and doing the work wherever we can, you know? Yeah. So, as a closing question for each of you, I just want to know, is there anything you learned about your partner today that surprised you or that you think is something important that you'll carry with you as you continue having these interactions? Well, for me, Max, I think it's so impressive that you are one knowledgeable at your young age, and that you care about these topics, you know, about what's going on in our society and how it works and why it works. I think I admire that a lot, and also that you're willing to have these conversations. I just think it's amazing how you even challenge yourself, right. To have those discussions and then to question yourself, even if you need to. I think those are my biggest takeaways, and I admire that at such a young age, because I wish I could have been like you when I was younger. Yeah.

52:21 I think what was really impactful to me from you was the way that you have kind of approached the world and been resilient to a lot of the different challenges that you face uniquely. And so. And being able to go through that, and I have such a positive outlook on what we can do as people is really impressive, and it gives me a lot of motivation to keep working towards my goals as a community.

53:09 That's wonderful. Yeah. I just really. I commend you for those things. I think it's pretty awesome that you don't even have that desire to be an advocate of change at your age, and I hope, I know you're gonna get it done, but I hope you knock it out the ballpark all the way out, because that's pretty amazing.

53:35 I appreciate it.

53:36 Yeah.