Elvin Lee Jones and Herbert Jones

Recorded October 27, 2005 Archived October 27, 2005 01:32:01
0:00 / 0:00
Id: MBX000729


Herbert interviews his brother Lee about singing with doo wop groups in Memphis in the 1950s and 60s.

Subject Log / Time Code

E got cut while playing at a white club by another group member.
E had to stop working in Memphis because he was “too friendly with white women”.
E had 1 uniform and didn’t have sheet music just a little record player.
E went through some legal trouble and Louis' brother subbed for him even though he had never sung before.
Herbert remembers a time when he took Lee’s 1 uniform and wore it to school.


  • Elvin Lee Jones
  • Herbert Jones


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00:07 My name is Herbert Jones. My age is 62 today's date is October 27th. 2005 location is Memphis, Tennessee in my relationship to the interviewee is I'm his brother.

00:24 My name is Elvin Lee Jones better known as Lee.

00:28 My age is 63.

00:31 And today's date is the 27th of October 2005 and we are in Memphis on Main Street.

00:40 And my relationship to the interviewer is my brother younger brother. Okay, Lee.

00:48 Why don't you tell us a good story about how you became a doo-wop singer inside of give us some insight into what it was like when you were doo-wop singer coming out of Memphis, Tennessee.

01:04 Well, it was fun because we the groups in the guys at I started saying what we all started like in the 7th grade in School just kidding around and at that time rhythm and blues and rock and roll was just becoming popular and we tried to imitate you you didn't own singers and stars.

01:27 And by the time we got in the 8th grade neighborhood that form a group called The quails with my older brother was the lead singer of

01:38 And it consists of five other members, but I was a little too young for him so we can have the kind of wait another year until everybody got disinterested and I got me a slot single with with a glass and it was mostly just to entertain people on the corner and down the street and I'll sales really and we use our desire to be singers in the Entertainer's so

02:08 When we went to high school in the 9th grade, it really was getting more serious because we were at us be coming at us anyway, and we got with a guy which was a local DJ was real popular name dick and cold.

02:26 And he had a program that he would feature certain entertainers local entertainers in the mornings in the evenings to sing. Dry singing we call it.

02:41 History Harmony, and we thought we were good enough to join because so.

02:48 We challenged the few groups that were in Memphis to become his a his group and was John Brown a friend of a friend of mine's singing lead. We got the spot to sing for dick gang called only thing they called wanted of us if that's an with the change our names in the quails to the Cannes because that was his name.

03:12 So we came real popped up at school and throughout the city because we had a morning program in the evening program just singing and we will work with dick. Oh, so it was so the reason why you guys change your name to the king because the King Cole wanted you to be named after him. Is that right? Right the came in what was he a disc jockey? Yeah, I woke up the radio station that he was associated with Okay. Okay, then what happened next after they can't go get you guys to going. All right. We work with Dick for about a year or two and we would

03:47 Go on certain gigs they call it is is it shows and got to the point where everybody was getting paid? But you can see who has enough problems with that. Although we wasn't quite stupid. So we had a disagreement with it cuz we didn't think it was painless way. So we left it.

04:15 And without leaving Jackie insisted that he keep his name and that was fine with us. So we wanted to keep a name that was close to.

04:25 Games where the people would have a little idea about who we still were so we change our names to the Kings and that would eliminate. Mr. Good can't go and we will be on so we went as the Kings and like I said, he was consist of Dom Bryant Jamie Bryant William Walker Joe Lewis Powell and myself and I

04:53 We won't on to that point until we heard that fella named Willie Mitchell was looking for group here. Just got out of service and he was a hot trumpet player.

05:08 Can you give us a sense of time about when was this? And how old were you guys at this time. What year was it?

05:17 This was approximately

05:21 1956 we would like a freshman year in high school.

05:30 Cast from we got the book of Washington the hospital with tenant. We got there in about 55 56 and we should have graduated in 60. So it was around 56 and we were just 16.

05:46 And I

05:49 But Willie was a a duck band. I mean his goal was to play for night clubs where consisted of adults you have to be 21 or older.

06:03 So done through a friend of he has met Willie and he will audition for Willie and he life with her. So we were going to be his group and it was known as Willie Mitchell in the Four Kings.

06:20 Everybody thought John was with him because he did all the same and he was saying it was out front, but that was just part of the popularity thing going on at that time, you know, but anyway, we went over and Elsa singing night clubs. And will it definitely was a hot tub and at that time he had some real star musician that came that just came through his band and went on to be famous in their own right light.

06:52 Ayanna Jackson he in Booker T & the mg's went to do good and the Steinberg's they all are at their own popularity, but what we had to do.

07:07 We have to go to our parents.

07:10 Go downtown and get declared inside us to allow us to be able to sing in that class and working like that.

07:20 Where you going to school at the time did you guys drop out of school at 10:12 to go to school? Amazingly we went for a couple years and I did drop out but it is never amaze me how we could saying until 3 or 4 in the morning and Don Bryant did that and Jamie the amazing cuz they got on with the school every day, but I didn't I dropped out and I'm

07:46 I still saying and certain days. We were featured at school prepper. I disable call us and Morocco miraculously of those will just happen to be the day that I showed up at school, but I made those days but we started working with Willie at night clubs. We works at the first of the work that was in West Memphis.

08:16 Danny's Club, it was a fight club and this is dealing with white and black issues of the time and that's that's where was we could send go over there entertaining, but after that we had to

08:31 Live with music come out. It was a. Of

08:35 De jure a legal segregation during that time. We are just two anywhere you would I would do that for a couple years until someone got murdered over that damn this club and they close the club down.

08:55 Somebody kill the lady on the lot one of the customers they had a problem.

09:00 So they close it then it's lit up when we was out of work. So we started working in Memphis. How much were you paid when you paid a lot of money on a little bit of money a little bit of money to be exact.

09:15 It was something that we work three nights a week and some like $25 a night. That's what I made but the lead singer.

09:26 And this time and in case what was the leader and the money Handler? So what he may we never did know when you pick it up, but we all friends in the same group, but he got paid and whatever he made I know it was more than we made but you know, I had to say at the time that that was just the way it went and we got this $25.

09:50 And

09:52 Well, hello my phone and getting a lot of experience and I'm after Danny's close.

10:00 They opened up a club.

10:05 Elvis Presley and

10:10 Call the Manhattan Club. We open at club for a guy named Billy.

10:16 And we were working there goes that white Club to ya.

10:20 We we did that for a while.

10:24 And after about a year, we started working downtown at the Flamingo room. It's a black club we had.

10:37 Monday night's what it boils down to is that we had to play and get more popularity. Then the bands that were already established cuz we were new go with Willie just getting out of service and Willie started his own band and with us if we were New Kids on the Block so we had to play as well or I'll do the bands are already establishing these clubs and it took us awhile to get to the point of popularity where we could get up of a pop of night witches Blue Monday night that's living room and we were in competition with no legs Miller. What's the flamingo room located on Beale Street on 4th right around the corner off of Bill Commando. I mean, sorry.

11:27 And

11:30 And same with love handy we had some nights at Club handy. It's there somewhere in the Ender right off of Bill and

11:39 We just learned the popularity in the people like it's enough and we not bow legs out of Monday night. If we start working there are we working there and at the Manhattan tonight and if living rooms every Monday night, but the Manhattan on the weekend and that went on for a while until

12:02 We had a problem at the Manhattan Club where someone is that time if you

12:13 Have a problem in a band you working for a white audience. The band cannot have any problems on that property. No criminal activities. No fights. No anything but a situation got out of hand one night.

12:31 And somebody cut me.

12:34 Own the property but

12:37 To keep the band from just being cut out altogether and just couldn't work, you know at all.

12:46 That was some juggling going on and we establish the fact that well, it didn't happen on the property. And so the band could keep playing but the incident

12:59 Broke Subban up in Willy

13:03 I'm so we are desired the group and really started working at a high through your ass when he went to hospital start recording before we get to Willard High Studio. Was it someone in the band who got you that one of my group members? We had a little problem.

13:21 And I I I guess you love me so much. You just had to see you.

13:30 But it is and we can work anywhere.

13:34 In the city

13:36 4 year

13:38 It was it was it was it was it was that bad and then there was some problems to with with the other answer answer they say we were getting too friendly with you with the women and that create a problem to so with all of that. We had to stop working in Memphis. Was that the women that the flamingo Club of the women at the white Club white gloves? So did you guys have problems with the the black man in the van? And then your group friend dies in with the white women problem? I wouldn't call it a problem and maybe it was a problem to them, but it was just been.

14:16 Friends and people to me but at the time the atmosphere and attitudes difference where it was it was against the law.

14:27 Do I have white?

14:29 Women friends, but did you guys have white women friends?

14:36 Free Living in America, why not create a problem for a year

14:45 And we didn't know what to do what it was spearheading everything so

14:52 Through the grace of a lady named Miss, She had the other two boxes lot of City pinball machine. As hell, we can even go and get caught in cafes. My dad a cat play How could even be allowed to go in there? So but anyway, we weather that storm and by the time all of that I guess it was just too much and people was getting ambitious to carry on and so we just dissolved the group and what it is obvious band and went to high Studios Where You Are

15:28 Really became famous. When was this about what year?

15:32 60

15:36 59 + 60

15:39 I can't be exact but that's that's pretty pretty close. And then what did you guys do? Well

15:47 When my dad been a barber

15:50 And I needed some employment.

15:52 And at the time singing just didn't look too promising at the time.

15:57 I went to Barber College started barber college on Beale Street.

16:02 But I known Louis and Pedro the other two guys and became members of the Ovation. I we knew each other cuz where they used to sing with the with the Del Rio's house band with flamingos room and we all travel in the same circles and they sang with us once when you guys couldn't make it on on on this particular gig they made a trip up to Fayetteville and did a show with us there and we we knew each other and and at the time I didn't know that

16:39 They like Muhammad, you know that I really was impressed by myself. When I was on Beale Street on the Bible College Pedro and Lewis will stop by there and they proposition me about by singing with you no good together and we would practice back in the back and doing the time and you know, we wouldn't come here and we're practicing we start writing this particular song called wonderful to be loved. So I was in Bible College they were doing anything up and down the street and we will looking forward to doing something.

17:20 And

17:23 The hominid was good in a relationship with go so we got in touch with gowipe recording studio to a guy named what a guy videos Quinn clocks in Russellville with owners.

17:39 And they were white and they mostly was.

17:44 Geared for Country type music but they were trying to get off in the rhythm and blues and dealing with black artists and and and it's it's really kind of difficult when you're

18:01 Music structures is about country and all of a sudden you dealing with with black entertainers that sings a certain way and you really not too familiar with it. But you trying to learn it cuz you trying to get together so I can make some money. So Roosevelt Jamison this guy that Louis new introduced us to

18:21 La Quinta Lawton. Russell Russell being a doctor get a pharmacy on North Memphis and they had to recording studio. So we presented them with this song with every one of them are not so he wanted to record Saver Card at Austin James car.

18:40 Disable Odyssey baby. OV Wright they get they were opening up their doors in other words cuz it's a rhythm and blues. So we recorded Wonderful to be in love.

18:53 And it did good.

18:56 For a while and

19:00 About how many copies did you guys sell?

19:04 You know, that's something we never really did Charlie for me personally keeping up with the last.

19:14 Damn, I remember.

19:17 Numbers results I'm like over 500,000.

19:21 But they were more and

19:27 Those figures just wasn't available to us opening but with the song made something like number 22 on Billboard and that's pretty good. Since you hit it a chart.

19:43 And I get that high, you know out of a hundred u-22 that ain't that ain't bad. We saw quite a few fear I can.

19:53 But what really really really got was interesting to me? Okay, here we are. We are from Memphis. We have weathered the storm. Oh

20:08 Getting all the experience that we could get singing with different individuals and meeting different entertainers and you know raised up around Rufus Thomas and all these guys and being brand working with with Mitchell and too cold and we are at home now. It sounds pretty good.

20:29 So we just got a new housing but there's more to it than that. You got out back and you got to have a manager. You got to have money behind you got to have a good recording studio behind you got a motion. You got to have uniforms, especially when somebody like James Brown say I want to send for The Ovations. They record hot enough and I want you and I want them to be before me on every show I do but tell us how you guys got to meet James Brown and perform before he where are they? I want to tell you I'll get I'm going to get to that book.

21:08 I start look like it like it happened when we got ready to leave Memphis.

21:14 We had one uniform we got that Lansky Brothers.

21:18 Okay. Now we we supposed to have a manager and recording studio was behind us. We had never performed at that level.

21:28 Not just love that. We were embarking on.

21:33 So we were supposed to meet in Maryland on a certain date.

21:39 And we were supposed to be herzl Last Night at Pierce.

21:44 How old is reading Joe Tex?

21:48 I guess that's just our to start start on the store.

21:53 So when we got ready to leave.

21:57 We had the one uniform.

22:01 We didn't have any music.

22:03 Are you supposed to have your music written out that she should post about we don't have any of that?

22:11 Only thing I had we had was a small little portable record player.

22:18 When I record in the record player work off of batteries, the record player one holler big is a 45, but you can hear it when we get some Maryland all these guys with experience Lani music the sheets of Music out and the band playing it right off of them. It's time for us to record I walk up there. I knew it was one good but I wasn't scared. I didn't like it. But I knew that if we were going to carry on and do anything we had to work with what we had and I sent that little Rocket Player premium gas in the bed learning our song off of that record felt which was very unprofessional.

23:01 But we just didn't have the backing and we didn't and we were going for what we knew.

23:08 And at that time

23:12 And I thank him today Gladys Knight & the Pips is there call?

23:17 Mostly it was the Pips that came to her rescue. They came and befriended us and showed us what should be the way it should be and I wish you do it and what we need to do to get on music and everything up tight and it really became good friends. My brother night we can guess and

23:41 Patent

23:43 These were the Pips the men that they really they really took us on that a wing and a really really helped us help us out of embarrassing situation, but we were so determined that embarrassment wouldn't stop us and going and do do better but

24:12 From that point on we learned, you know through the friendship with them and everything. So

24:20 That was a really really.

24:23 Trying to try and situation believe you're the one I want to chill with all of these famous people and everybody gets their Innovation is the other guy that hear that but they liked it so much that it really wasn't any criticism. I mean, they really like this. What did it did they like it? Because Lewis sound like Sam Cooke Song in itself is Papa ya the song was a good song.

24:55 Not only that, I guess maybe they

24:59 We're just like this as individuals. I hope

25:03 This impression I got

25:06 So it worked out pretty good once we got our music written and everything and

25:13 And we were invited like I said by James Brown to be his old nurse Apollo Theater.

25:19 Had a really top the cake at the time. Can you talk about Lewis Williams Louis is found in terms of Sunday night time Sam Cooke. That's hello Lewis sound.

25:33 Almost identical to Sam Cooke and what make it so good.

25:41 He would have to try to imitate somebody else. But if he told me his mouth and just saying himself that's just the way it came out and in our song came out at the gym right after Sam at that got killed and I was on came out right after that and I believe that was one reason that you did as well as it did but it was still a nice song but Lewis. Yes automatic sound like Sam. Anyway, I mean you just going to have it down. I don't think

26:12 So

26:14 That was a plus.

26:16 And we all were

26:20 Consider Asia equals, you know, what? No you are leader and I'm a leader I get more money than you you make more money than me because I got the boys and y'all just went in behind me and I wasn't at all with we we did everything together as one.

26:39 And it really worked out good cuz Lewis experience and page of experience working behind a lead singer that made all the money and kept them in the dark like I do.

26:52 The way you just so you know second-string, you know, I'm the lead singer. I got divorced. So therefore I cover all the money and pay you looked at we didn't we we agreed not to do that because we knew how it felt to be in that situation.

27:06 And I work out.

27:08 Where. Pretty good?

27:11 Until things kind of start getting a little shaky.

27:18 And Lewis had a problem with the courts.

27:23 And he had to return to Memphis that was asked to be in court. But before we get to that can we start with the trip to Maryland and just take us right now to James Browning and then bring us to the courts James Brown when you left Maryland, what happened after you left?

27:45 And then the two handed if my memory serves me correctly. It ended at the Apollo. That was our first time to be at the Apollo and you were singing with James Brown at the Apollo. He requested that he called us the houseguests. He wanted us to go on before him. Let me interject something here. I will mother sent me a picture of you guys are on the front page of the Tri-State Defender here at Memphis waving to the city of Memphis as you were getting on the plane to go to a harlem to perform with James Brown at the Apollo Theater. I was think I was in Italy at the time in the Air Force.

28:27 That was nice 1960-62. I believe it was 63-64. Okay. Yeah it was.

28:40 A nice thing to do while people recognizes that the hometown people know what some of the hometown guys were doing.

28:51 And

28:53 We went there and

28:56 How's the business manager at that time? And

29:01 James was very very courteous.

29:05 Businessman, he took a business one thing about it. We always got paid you always treated as a night. I've always heard some rumors about James on the stories and things like that. But my experience was James Brown with nothing, but good memories good memories, you know, he paid us and every time there was a problem you had a problem you are to go to him to get it straight now.

29:31 We as a group never had any any any problems of Jamie treat us real good and I can say he paid us that's important PS, you know, it is so we work at the part about five or six times was James Brown because every time we went there he requested us to be there. Are you always want us to

29:58 Warm up the crowd for

30:00 Anna

30:02 We did what we could do, but like I say after after.

30:11 How to do DIY we couldn't get accounting of the Wrecker Sales and most of our money was on.

30:18 Being used Lewis's defense

30:24 We couldn't really get tabs on how much money we really were getting. That's why we couldn't really couldn't get

30:33 Into The Clothes Closet where the money was because people say you make one thing in the records and charts. Are you making another and trying to work and being rookies and without decent management and all that you really really set yourself up to be taken advantage of

30:58 And I know there's one writer and his book about the Memphis music and stacks music. He takes the position that you guys were really are going to the top and Sunday You Begin to Fall what the bottom because drugs are undermined the group or how would you like to speak to that author at this point in time? Well, if I have a drink of Johnnie Walker red is drugs.

31:29 Then I'll consider that fact, but at the same time I don't even know what drugs was any food with it. That's that's not what led to

31:45 As we so-called decline of elevation first of all.

31:51 We were in a situation where I am.

31:54 We want a contract with people that really didn't know what to do with us.

31:59 We didn't have any writers only only only songs that we really recorded in did halfway decent was the one that we wrote ourselves.

32:09 The studio was not gear for real.

32:13 Rhythm and blues we recorded sell the song that was written by.

32:19 Clauses wife Dan pen wrote us a song, but it wasn't in the vein of rhythm and blues and the type of thing that I always want to hear.

32:30 We didn't have.

32:32 Good management, that's for sure and

32:38 SSI, as you know, I stopped seeing because of the situation because you working you working. You can't make sure that accounting for your money.

32:53 And but as far as the drug thing is, I don't know nothing about it.

33:00 Like I said the time I like Johnnie Walker red and I don't think it makes that much decline. Can you speak to to the decline of The Ovations tomorrow in terms of getting that are too straight in terms of what actually caused a Ovation to go out of business so to speak.

33:22 This is my opinion. Is that for management? And

33:27 Bad Bet poor manager no management and no songs. You got to have some and if you don't have a song you don't have somebody ryu's theme song or determine who what you record like for answering most of those recording companies Stacks in particular. They had buku writers great writers.

33:50 Motown

33:53 You just can go on and on they have a ride in style.

33:57 Like you asked me and this is my opinion.

34:03 We didn't have any rights that out of the right is that they solicited was on the wrong thing for what we were trying to do.

34:10 And after I got tired of it

34:14 You said I was going to get married and working be able to different situation. I can't speak for what what happened after I left but basically by the same thing everybody was having their own personal problems, just like everybody have problems in life and if you don't have

34:34 People to beg you and help you in and then support you and you trying to do it all by yourself with most of the case was with your vacations. Like I said from the time we love Memphis with that little toy to go to to the big times and that's a big lie about what

34:55 The level of backing that your group had I mean, you know, that's my shopping and it is

35:08 Things happen and people have personal problems and

35:14 And they have no problems in life and you ain't the only problem people have cuz I can say while I'm thinking about it. I want it. I want to say this when Louis had to come home once to go to court.

35:29 That mean we should be working at the Apollo. We do 5 shows a day.

35:34 7 straight days

35:37 We've been dead about two days work. You don't work. You don't get paid.

35:43 All of a sudden 2 costume and Louis had to be back in Memphis.

35:48 Had to be

35:50 Here we are.

35:52 In the middle of all the show Louis is releasing Louis is voice.

36:00 Has nothing to do while since you without that.

36:08 Lewis had to come back to Memphis but it just so happened today that he had to come back home Louis got a brother named car a couple of years young and buy like you and me.

36:20 Just happened to come in from from Chicago just happened. He heard we were in New York. You want to see us? He just happened to come.

36:30 New York capital

36:33 And the first thing we have some can you sing might sound like he did God have never been on stage and nothing. We took Luis is coat long long to stalling and Lewis Cobra to shorten their thing. We wouldn't miss it for farming.

37:02 We put put put put on stage and he song Wonderful to be in love and we had to whisper the words end of the year, but we got by with it we made I mean they knew it wouldn't lose all the stuff that you sent. You know that they knew it wouldn't lose but he was close enough he did.

37:25 The rest of the day I think about 3 shows.

37:29 Loose back the next day. That happened and that was one of the kind of funny things that really really else. I wonder how do we do it?

37:47 But like I say

37:50 Everybody's going to have their own opinion and you know history is written by told by whoever write the book. So I mean everybody going to have their own opinion, but that's my opinion is just that it is I was there.

38:04 But basically port management poor decision and didn't have the bag and I don't know anybody really wrote a song Especially For for the group that was in a good mood in that Riders. We did we roll out on some of it first, so

38:22 You know, you just have to go for what you know, so, so can you tell us about the winter when you decided to quit and

38:31 And no longer via. Do I sing it? Also? Can you tell us a little bit about the problems that you all are having concerning your royalties?

38:40 Okay, well will will will start with why I decided decided to kind of take a break on it.

38:52 After Louis is our problems will over in the courts.

38:57 And

39:00 We were having financial problems because we can get in the money the money we got when you accuse me. We knew it wasn't it didn't justify out. I work we wasn't enough. We knew we weren't getting paid, but we couldn't get any.

39:17 Satisfaction they can show us

39:21 What was going on with that money?

39:24 And look like things are going we will get sent to like Houston Texas. We supposed to be on the show with the Impressions and 7 more people get their no show.

39:39 We traveled all the way from New York to Houston and no show thing just started happening that at the particular at that particular time in my life that I wasn't really enough to stand and keep on going with him. We started having a different opinions on what things should way things should be in the group and what should be done.

40:04 And I will wait if you didn't suit me well enough and innuendo to me we wear to stall and standstill anyway, and I need it security.

40:15 I didn't need to wonder if and hope and pray they give me some money. I need to get out there and make me sound so that's what I started doing. That's why I decided to I'll take a break from and when did you do that by 66?

40:28 M-66 recently you guys have been on the news about about your royalties about your songs that you've written that you're not being paid for. It hasn't been paid for also Lewis just passed Pedro still with you. Can you set up bring us up-to-date and tell us what's going on with that issue?

40:52 As far as the Rodger money.

40:58 I can better express it like I'm sure most people heard when Michael Jackson.

41:06 Little Richard now he's real big famous people that's been working for years have been trying to get their money from certain recording studios in a day.

41:18 Usually end up going a bouncing off a brick wall.

41:22 Because in my opinion you got that you'll stick out to be as big as theirs to win the fight and if you ain't got the power or the money you going to get just coffee chain around around in circles, and it just going to be a story.

41:39 Did you tell him that you don't mean you going to get it done? And we have been featured on a local TV station and let Smith interview about trying to get out or watching something but

41:53 Talk don't do it. You got to have some action and as far as quintron, Geneva, New York.

42:02 Owners of of the catalog of all songs, they recently sold it to

42:11 Ace recording studio nnnnn England and United Kingdom and they recently released a CD on on The Ovations, you know for the old do I pair it?

42:26 There's yet to be.

42:31 Probably distribution of money on that. Hopefully something will come of that but

42:37 It's like I said if you don't have a stick is bigger than a recording companies.

42:42 You really just about as a mercy and you just hope and pray that it didn't give you a little of it.

42:51 Open giving you none of it. So.

42:55 Pedro Nico communicating we'd try to he's really getting really trying to keep the ovations.

43:04 Legacy going and get recognition for our activities in it for the commute coming out of the community what achievement that we done?

43:15 And I'm but as for his royalties and things like that, that's still up in the air.

43:22 If you had any advice to give to young people today who want to go into the music industry. What advice would you give them?

43:40 Do it one thing if that's what your heart desire.

43:44 But try if you can if there's any way possible to surround yourself with people that you really can trust.

43:53 And they can support you.

43:58 And don't sign contracts unless you still investigating and make sure everything is probably the i's are dotted and the t's across.

44:12 That's about the best I can say right now and hope for the best and pray. Is there anything else you'd like to say?

44:20 Not really. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk until some well, I like to thank you so very much for telling us this great story about your experience has to do wop singer and as your brother sort of lived with you I was sitting here and I was just amazed at the story that you would tell him that I really do. Appreciate you coming down today. Thank you. You're welcome Herbert. My memory was when he dropped out of school. And also that's one story about what I used to take his clothing and where to his uniform to school. You know, that one uniform that he has ACT.

45:07 Where was like a I think a brown coat of some dress code of some sort. I would have class Monday to to high school 10th grade. I was clean I was shop and he came into that classroom and took your phone away from me because they had to before my other best memory is when they used to sing that at the Flamingo right off of Beale Street. I used to love to hear death to sing Besame Mucho and in Georgia, and I I used to go in I was only like what 15 16 years old and he would give me an opportunity to go with him as his little brother Shadows experiences in as I was telling them this evening. That's what I remember the most about him being a Doo Wop saying I was proud of him too because he was my brother.