Travis Hipp and Stuart Hipp

00:06 Hi, my name is Travis hip I am 28 years old. Today is March 8th 2009 or in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, and I am talking with my brother Stewart.

00:19 My name is Stewart hip I'm 31 years old. Today is March 8th 2009. It's Winston-Salem, North Carolina, and I'm talking to my brother and Travis.

00:31 I gave you a comic to read very leading, Can you have coarse and so my first question that I wanted to know was what was it like for you growing up as my brother who that is a big big question. Well from the I guess from the moment in time where I really remember things porcher. What's your earliest memory of you?

01:01 I'd have to really delve deep to figure that out. But the one that comes to mind is is either Christmas morning. I don't know what year but playing with all of our toys that sort of a fun time but also hiking through the woods in Pendleton South Carolina in the summer and then sort of weather. We were with friends or we just with our animals just traipsing through the woods and climbing over trees and getting muddy that what what's yours with me? I don't know it's hard because I'm older it. I know there are some moments where I would remember things that you wouldn't but I don't really remember using infant. I can't remember because we're only too. Well that makes sense. Plus that story about the box when we were when you were in the hospital and I shredded the cardboard box.

01:53 I remember that story but I can't tell you that too because I remember doing it or because I remember hearing it so often or that's like where is ingrained in my room too? And so I doubt you right? I probably would I probably don't remember doing that was when my lung collapsed when you were born two days older one day old. Yeah, and I shredded a cardboard box and complete nervous fashion. My dad left me with a cardboard box and he came back to find the bottom of a hamster cage. And so I was concerned obviously shown but I do remember there's the house in Clemson where we live before we lived in Pendleton, and I remember to rain. I don't remember that. I remember train set from there. I know you had to be there as well, but I don't I don't that's all I remember that's one of my earliest memories, but I'll miss I remember you in that it's funny to think about those places that you've lived that you don't know that you don't know at all I can picture where the house is roughly, but I don't know that but

02:53 Go back to the the the earlier question. That was I think I think most times it was great to have an older brother that that would look out for me and protect me and let me tag along, you know, you sort of made the friends and I sort of tagged along and annoyed them I think but I was I was a rather solitary child. I believe I would play by myself until you let me play with you. I remember I remember being tortured a little bit, you know, you would take my my bobo my little rabbit. I had and hide him and mostly it was probably your friends. That would do that more than you. Yeah, I don't remember doing that fell in the toilet, but I don't remember I don't remember that at all to the beach. I probably took him right back out and kept on playing with you are mortified you were you were very distraught you would place them on what you thought was a toilet seat when in fact there was no toilet seat and it went directly into the commode so bubble with my green rabbit.

03:53 I love it. I think I still have a green for only a short. Of time fluorescent green for for a few days and then green and then mostly brown or hairless. Right? But the the cartoon that you gave me I think it's what you're getting at. Well, yeah it to a certain extent and that's a Calvin and Hobbes cartoon.

04:17 Where Calvin and Hobbes are playing Monopoly and Calvin precedes to change the rules when he's in a bad spot and he robs the bank and a fight precedes because that's against the rules and I remember from I'm guessing it was from the time where I could physically play play sports or any sort of games. That was a competition. Yes, and I think that word really marks our childhood was competition. I've been funny you would bring this out because I've been thinking about that a lot lately but

04:54 I remember you would always change the rules and in time I was winning pretty much every time and you know, I'm over it now, but it wasn't very much fun to lose every game. Why do you think I did that? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I think it's largely an ego thing. Wanted to be the first being the first wanting to be better or the best which is great. And I mean, I think you've always wanted to be the best and when it doesn't concern me, I'm really happy about it. But you know I said, I've been thinking about it and

05:35 I've noticed that even with that everything's about competition for me and is probably a direct result of that. It's it's strange to think about it. I've never noticed it until I had a baby and then I found myself being jealous of my wife's relationship with my baby. Like I wanted to be the one that the baby love the most and I wanted the baby to smile at me more than Priscilla. And so, you know, I've had this Revelation over the past few days, that just makes me think how awful that is to live that way and maybe not awful a sense of competition is great but not in terms of your loving relationships. So I think that's probably did as much damage as it did good. If not more damage than good. Right? I think we had an advocate adversarial relationship. I was thinking back back to my earliest memory one of my most Vivid memories not necessary a pleasant one, but was of

06:35 The the golf club instant, I don't I don't remember hitting you with I remember up but I remember how concerned I was afterwards. I remember going to the going to get the neighbor the nurse Hall I believe was her name. I don't remember her name, but you should remember waking her on her couch. I went to get her or we went to get her. I guess that guy yesterday when I went to get her while you were on you or on our couch. I thought maybe know you took me there we did but I remember it was spring you were out in the front yard. I remember the hair. We are trying to find Hilton right B on the front steps over the walkway and in the front yard over the little railroad tie and then we were you were standing there swinging and you'd said don't get near me. I'm swinging a golf club. I'm going to swing by Swing and I didn't move to where I moved a little bit and you swing and hit me with the backswing or no.

07:35 Yeah, it was the backswing in the temple and you bleed a lot. I don't remember that right? I remember getting hit and I think I remember feeling warm and then waking up on the couch in the neighbor's house. So I think that was a maybe defining moment for me because I realize that you know, that was the first time maybe I realized I was responsible for what happened and that I was responsible for you in some ways and I always felt that way, you know, I always felt like I was responsible for you regardless of whether it was they are or at the skating rink. It was fine for me to pick on you. But if somebody else is going to pick on you that was a different story. I didn't like that and I wasn't going to stand for that. So there was that was before that. I never saw him of course not course not but I did feel responsible sure. And you know, I felt like you said when you had those you are.

08:35 More solitary And Then There came this point when you were I don't know 7 or 8 or so that you started really making friends at school Steven steffek and Daniel guys like that. And you started going to play with them and I lost a playmate to some degree in I remember I've been jealous of that to some degree because you know, I always counted on well, if if I don't have any other options, I know I've always got this right and then that was that a built-in told the moment that it was like wait a minute. This isn't my you know my own area of control anymore. I've lost some degree of control. They never thought about it like that.

09:15 Well while we're gone childhood, I have a couple questions more from childhood. Do you have any favorite stories from childhood that we need to

09:25 The one that comes to mind.

09:29 It doesn't really involve you so I don't I mean I remember learning to ride a bike. I remember getting a bike and Christmas morning red bike, you know, just want to go out and ride it and find bike run. When I finally did I was in such a rush to ride the bike and we lived on a really Steep Hill. It was a bad neighborhood to learn to ride bikes in. Well, it was great because you didn't have to keep up your own momentum. So staying on the bike was not the problem. It was the fact that I didn't know where the brakes were. Yes, and I went all the way down into the end of the cul-de-sac and completely and totally out of control and had to ditch the bike and roll in the grass and luckily there was grass in a lot of room display down but then

10:19 You know, I think probably the best times that I ever had with you and I don't but love to know if this is the same for you was at Nanny's Mountain House in Highlands, I mean, I think those were some of the most free-spirited play times that we ever had together and it was like we were away from the world that had to find our relationship and there wasn't any real need for competition. Yeah. We were just two boys playing in the woods all day everyday and exploring is a brand new world write a completely different. We had plenty of room for make-believe and master of the universe Riot Masters of the Universe and and playing ninja and floating down the river and you know, trying to find crawdads and you trying to teach me not to be scared of them. I remember all of that have actually written about that several times. And and those were those are great memories. I don't have any particular ones out.

11:19 Remember that the trail that went went up the river from from nanny's house and we'll running that running it and walking it and climbing on trees and all of that out of the darkness of the forest. It was a very dense rate. I can if he ever had I remember always being dark no matter how bright the sunshine was it poked through it places, but and I remember when eventually that she cleared that passed down to the river what I sent the loss. It was I knew dad was grieved at it, but I would agree that it for different reasons not just because the trees were gone and there were trees have some but because it was you know, all this exposed place for one source is great and dark had a governor exactly Rhododendron and wet Earth and the that smell bring him back no matter where I am on Earth if I find that smell it I mean

12:19 Heavy transport transports me to that place or a place of comfort and enjoying something that feels good. Yeah. There's a really strange. I think that a dark Forest steam wet damp smell would make you feel that way about it. But obviously, you know, that makes sense in terms of my memory of that place. Absolutely. I feel the same way that and creosote. Yeah. Those are the two smells for me that are just easily definable. I would know where they came from. I would know where I was sure. I would recognize any more but I would recognize it as the smell of the desert after the rain right. That's what I knew. It has only know it's Chris up because that's what I was told. It was part of the way it smelled.

13:06 I'd like to put the same question to you in terms of your fondest memory of of childhood with me or without me. I was going to say the other grandparents. I would say those were really good. But I also loved being at with Ernest with you and Ernest and it you know having a freezer full of ice cream that was ours for the taking you knowing that we were both free to do as we chose as we choose. But at the same time that there were, you know, pretty Simpson pretty hard rules to follow as well and that we were going to be held accountable right? I feel like maybe for me sometimes that that was not as clear at that home. And so knowing that Ernest was going to drop a line eventually helped me and some ways but I loved going to the farm.

14:06 Yeah, playing fishing with Darkness. I definitely remember the day that he took us out to the pond. I don't know which one it was and the struggle that you had with the fish the biggest fish and ever and ever and you with your little bream Buster and and pulling that thing trying to pull it out of the water in that thing pulling you right back in it towards the towards the water. I almost had him you finally finally got him in there and then he flopped on back but I just remembered I got him out of the water and then he escaped escaped off the hooks. That was it. That was a 30-minute fishing fight that what I think it would go down in the record books of any Anglers history. It was it was almost as big as you the fish. I think maybe that's probably why I don't remember how old I was but I felt like he was bigger than me. Yeah. I remember pushing peanuts and S hooks out of the back of his truck sitting in the back of the truck. I remember building to Fort under the couch.

15:06 Stealing the Crystal Light lemonade mix of country time lemonade mix and I remember the Candyman the Candyman next door absolutely come back from his house with buckets 5 gallon buckets full of candy and no one would tell us not to eat it all I want all at once that was grandparents wouldn't leave out any of those memories and

15:33 I think to this day the smell of a of a Dusty pick up woman every pick up I get in I find smells the way that Ernest pick up smell the board F150. I think it was and I would I would really love I loved either with you or without you sitting with Ernest in the cab of that pickup truck and driving out into the country wherever it was really going where it whether we were going to survey the farm to go fishing in a swamp or on a farm or even to the worst place to place in the world, which is the big farm. It is his buddies MessYourself SOG funnest yourself out form that plays an old terrible, but it we were with Ernest and so it was sort of bearable. I remember going to Coffee club with Ernest. Yeah, it's great. That was I guess it was the Lions Club, but I never knew that it was just a roomful a happy old man that would sit around and flip Jones and flip coins and talk to us like we were little men. Yep, and I

16:33 But I really remembered that and him going by and filling up the S cup of full of yogurt frozen yogurt. That was fantastic. Yeah, but it didn't really matter what the flavor was the great memories. Do you have a least favorite?

16:57 No, I don't think I I mean I couldn't cite at least favorite. That's so extreme. Right? You know, I didn't I didn't never like fighting with you but we fought a lot I think as any other pair of brothers does.

17:14 I I don't know. I think that's that's too too dark of a place to go because I don't I don't go there and I think I must mean I don't have a a worst really tragic impacting moment in the history. I mean I'd you know sure I hated it when I turned over the go-kart and ruin that much fun for us and I don't like dragging my face across the pavement very much but I mean in terms of you know our relationship. No, I don't have one either. I think we were fortunate that and all of our fights and all of our you know Adventures there were never there was never a real consequence. And in that sense that we never had some defining moment that was tragic and I think that's maybe before I don't know if it's real or not. But I think it's certainly fortunate fortuitous. We're lucky. Yeah exactly exactly.

18:14 Sitting here across from each other by saying amen.

18:20 I do have my moments though that I that I think about and I think about our later years are teenage years which were not particular Sterling in our relationship easily blocked out. I think in a lot of ways. I remember my teenagers finally except for our relationship because I know what a what a bad job. I did. It's an older brother. I failed in that responsibility for what do you think that well because I know what I mean because I felt that responsibility. I didn't see it. Then only saw it afterwards. I only saw how angry you were with me only knew there's there's a moment and as I was sitting here thinking about these questions, there was this moment still continues to come back to me, which is I don't remember why we were there but I remember coming back from South Carolina being in Rock Hill South Carolina to gas station fighting in the backseat with you.

19:20 And you got out of the car and you walk across the street and you were trying to call your friends to come pick you up you were you were serious that you were not getting back in the car with you that you are not going by The Cars me you were not going home with us that someone is going to have to come get you and you know, that was sort of the moment for me that I realized like truly how bad it was how bad things had gotten not that it was always like that. In fact, it was really like that but it the worst how bad it was and I went across the street and I think I told you that I'm sorry and I and I remember asking you is one of the first times I ever asked you for forgiveness and you said flatly know you refused to forgive me. I was pretty angry you are very angry and I remember how much that hurt from realizing that I couldn't control that again. You know that there's this area my relationship control. I think that part of that was not only you yes, I was angry at you.

20:20 Partly because of the competition partly because I was never felt like I was as good as you or that you would never admit that I was as good as you or that Mom and Dad didn't think that whether that was just my own delusion or not, but it wasn't it wasn't just you. You know, I mean that point in my life was hard. We just moved I've been taken away from my friends and I felt like I've been taken away from my friends. I'm sure you felt the same way and we were both maybe I was at a little more vulnerable Point than you were when when we move. I wouldn't blame it on that what I say that you know has a has a big part that was when we came to Winston-Salem from from Clemson and you know, we are going to New Mexico for a year and I thought that was the end of the world and then we came back and everything was pretty much the same so it would have gotten okay, we moved into this beautiful brand-new house where we had the woods behind us. It was almost like living in the mountains and we had a go-kart and we had

21:20 You know all this place to play and a creek and a ping pong table and just it was just a little boy's dream and then laundry chute. Yeah laundry chute that passed between our rooms and we could play with and

21:36 I think that was where I started to get angry as when that was taken away from us and you know, all of those stuff that had we had gone through seem to be for nothing living in the apartment in Clinton before we built that house was not a pleasant time. We had to share a room and it wasn't fun and only good part about that has pizza video games and yeah sure. We had a good time there but not really not really and then we've finally gotten to a place where we were at The Rim Yeah. I don't remember the room in that. I don't have any memory that too little single beds and we drew a line down the middle of the room. I don't know if it was written paper if it was imaginary, but I know right there, I think it was a decision or maybe it was Mom and Dad. I'm not sure I'll never had the guy that got to remember a division know we weren't

22:36 Yes, but yeah, so, you know, I wouldn't take as much fault as you feel like you have in that whatever you feel like you need to find. I wouldn't worry about it that much anymore with my question at the end of all, that was really can. You forgive me for my faults. Of course, I've already done so, you know, I still go back maybe monthly and think about this stuff and from my own perspective and how I need to grow in order to get over things. I'm not over in order to forgive things. I haven't and in order to be a better person brother father, son.

23:18 Husband all of those things that you know, it's all it's all learning experiences. And you know, I was angry at the world. Not you so, you know, I think you took a lot more of it because I was angry and you were the closest thing I had to me I did I do take it personally. I have the same problems. Now. I have a hard time distinguishing. What's wrong with Stephanie versus what's wrong with me? Sometimes, you know, I take that on personally. I have a hard time just listening and saying okay, honey and not wanting to fix it. I know that's probably a email thing among other issues, but it's also I mean that's that that issue still is is is similar. So how would you describe a relationship now?

24:06 Brotherly, I mean, it's much more. It's much less adversarial. It's much more friendly much more except I think is a good word for it. I mean, you know, I accept who you are and not who you aren't. I don't try and make you anything else anymore. I don't want you to be anything else because his wife learn to accept it. And so, you know, I love our relationship we talk maybe three or four times a week, which is that's as many times as we would talk in a year.

24:46 You know six years ago or 7 years ago when I was in college, we didn't talk. It's true. I never talk to you when I was in college. He said when I would come home and that would be sort of ground sand and that's it a little in college when I was in college and you're in college when you were in college because you lived at home, but you live in the basement and right you wouldn't come up right? I wouldn't see you and I would not be at home on rapist, right? So yeah, I remember being proud of you. Then though. I was very proud of you when you went to college and proud of you know, what what an amazing growth you even made and you know, man, I still remember that Seahawks hat that you brought him for me. Bajada me know where that around my own campus even though you know, it's rough. Why are you wearing that hat here? I work because I was proud of you. I work because I was really happy with how you were turning out. I was glad to see that you know, there was no permanent.

25:46 Image that right that well and I'd have to say a lot of my life and motivation was to be better than you I mean whether or not that's sick and twisted or I don't think it is considering the framework Abby have built here in this conversation. But you know, I always wanted to be one not like you and not because I didn't want to be you but because I wanted to be me right and I saw that as a difficult task, I don't know why I just wanted to be different. I wanted to be me and not Stuart Little Brother. I didn't want to be little hip anymore, right? We are so close in age. I so, you know, I followed you through schools and I just got the title, and I'd rather not be you anymore. Yeah, they want to be compared to because you were so smart. So good at other things and you had done a great job of convincing me that you were better than me at most things. So I just wanted to be better than you at something.

26:45 I would have told you you were definitely not me. You never asked. Yeah, I know I didn't want to but so, you know a lot of I think a lot of what I did in my first semester of college of you know, getting on the road to getting straight A's and getting in on the straight as close to it on the Dean's List in the Chancellor's closer to it than I ever got was.

27:09 Proving to you and mostly to Mom and Dad that I wasn't coming home yet. I was going to be fine that I was better than they thought I was cuz I remember the day that they dropped me off and it didn't feel like it felt to me. Like I thought I was coming home after semester and they told me when I going to give you any money and you know, you've got to do this on your own you're getting your school paid for and that's enough so will prove it more or less if it wasn't said that way. I apologize for understanding it that way but that's really how I felt and so, you know, I studied hard and had a great time and then I came home to make you proud and to make Mom and Dad proud and I felt leaving our member coming home that Christmas. I remember going to Allen and Judy's house and being in front of the whole family being able to hold up a piece of paper then show them. I was on the Dean's List and got a 3.85 and Far Cry from my first Christmas after my first semester and having that thing.

28:09 Remember having it talked on the way to South Carolina. I had it tucked in the back pocket of the Volvo and it did not say anything close to 3.8. It said something a lot lower and I just have to read it that I'm sure they knew by then. Maybe they didn't but I just her mom and Dad or Mom and Dad. So I just remember how long it was before. I told them that was was not so yeah, they took that took about a red for sure. So when are we grow up?

28:45 I'm just saying I don't I don't between us.

28:51 For me it was it was going to Chile. I just realized how terrible Communicator I was at communicating and in general I think in when was that that was 2003 but it was the it was going to lead up to that and a huge set of events that were huge in my life in terms of love and in terms of unrequited love and then Mom and Dad coming down and tell me that they were separating and just all of the things that made me realize that bad poor communication led to terrible things. So when I went to Chile I decided on my own that that was going to be one of the one thing that I worked on if I could work on anything was being a better Communicator to anyone and everyone that came along and it was harder to get back to you and Mom and Dad right because I was sort of going away.

29:49 On purpose I wanted to get away. I wanted to be outside of the country and away from all the stuff. That was just it was going on at that point. You know, that's the first time you won't listen 2003. Yeah. Yeah. I was my last year last semester class last semester of the second degree. So yeah 2003 was the first time I went February 2003. Yeah, and so over those six months. I really you're five months. I tried to be a better communicator and came back ready to communicate from it for me. That was when things changed. I don't know when it was for you. When was it? Well, see for me part of it is I feel like

30:31 We that trip we took two to Italy together. I felt like that was a turning point for us. That was the first time we were able to work through things if that makes you remember being so mad at each other and in Venice and at the train station and just having a fight but then being like, okay, we got to fix this and we still got to get to our hotel and then there was balogna having to walk me being 3 miles bonehead stubborn, right? And yeah, I just I felt like we were able to make some progress. I would definitely agree. I wouldn't take that out of the equation. I mean, I think traveling internationally in general will help both of us grow up and great deal. Do you going to the London for 6 months and me on my trip to my walk across Spain and then the second trip to Spain both of those helped and and then you know, I think it was a nice cap on all of that to get together and go

31:31 Spend some time on a train and then all of the things that happen to us there.

31:37 Yeah that they gave us a common memory. They gave us a common bond from which to start growing again. I think we had to work through a whole lot of things on that trip and love for that to be possible. And I remember being so mad at you for silly things and realizing at that point how silly most of them were yeah, but didn't tell ya including that trip to California from California going to the car and talk in this all those people in playing cards and just sitting there just watching the watching the scenery go by that was I was a good trip the Moon Over parador 4000. I totally forgotten about was the only movie on the train and that was it and you know it over and over and over again, but it was funny. I remember seeing the whales off the coast of California.

32:37 And then you I have my mouth full of milk and you both both my cheeks and well.

32:54 I guess is there anything that you've always wanted to know about me that you've never asked?

33:06 I don't know that there is and I certainly don't think I could formulate that question now, but I could ask you a question in return that might help. Is there anything you've never told me that you like to tell me what that was going to be my next question. Yeah, I don't think so.

33:25 You know after my mission that it wasn't actually squirrel that it was Frosty's from Wendy's that cause you to write the car. I think I've cleared my flight of most of those deep dark secrets at least your mom and dad. I don't I don't think there's anything that I feel like we forbetterorforworse whatever it's been always been pretty kept or pretty short accounts and never done that are there is something I want to ask you that which is one Christmas you gave me a present, which was that you would stop smoking.

34:01 It wasn't a very good present. It wasn't very good present because I didn't stop smoking. Stop smoking for right now. I didn't you never talk about it. No, it was a terrible decision on my part to promise that right. It was a bad president. Stop smoking. Yeah. I don't smoke very much at all anymore. I know you don't but I know you still smoke. Yeah everyone it's the promise and the fact that you pretend you don't or it would not pretend you don't but it's under the table. So it's totally under the table cuz I'm not I'm not proud of it, but it's an addiction that I don't like I don't like having right now and it is that it's that is the most powerful drugs out there. It's the one thing that I wish I'd never taken into my body and there's some of those out there but I've stayed clear of most of the very addictive things in the world and you know, I didn't stay clear of this one because they get you early. Yeah.

35:01 Peer pressure's terrible and it's it's hard. It's harder than anybody that's never smoke could ever believe that's why I'm glad that for whatever reason it never occurred to me to to pick the first amount because I would be in the same boat. I don't have any illusions that I would be any different are prone to addictive behavior. And you know, this is the one that I haven't beaten yet. Yeah. I stopped for a year-and-a-half. Yeah, I did when I promised you. I know you stopped for a year-and-a-half and I fully intended to Never Smoke another cigarette again, and then I got a pipe.

35:45 As a gift and didn't have the pipe. Well, I didn't see any harm in it. Right? But all it did was bring back the addiction to cigarettes to Tobacco in the the easiest form that you could possibly get it right, which is just a little 3-minute stick Fred and thoughtful and I know it is right even worse. That's why that's that mean it's gone down dramatically since mila was born but it's just one of those weaknesses that I'm really ashamed off. So that's why I don't talk about it. That's why we don't

36:22 Discuss it right and so yeah, it was a bad Christmas present is all right, and I just wanted to I wanted to clear the air so that you would not have to feel like you couldn't talk about it. No, I know I couldn't ask you sure about it. Well, I'm glad you wanted to be no longer an unspoken issue in the area. So yeah, you know, I really

36:50 Going back to you know, one of those things I remember the moment. I came home and high school and saw a giant what was to me a giant bag of marijuana on the table and walk through the room and didn't know have any idea what to do. And so I walk to the room and kept going and came back around and next time I was gone. And so I was like, okay and I think I was probably, you know a defining moment for me because I still to this day have

37:26 A hard time putting people in uncomfortable situations pressing the issue and uncomfortable situation. Is that something I'm trying to work on as a person in my job and my life is not being afraid to step in and say hey, what's the deal to put people in, uncomfortable situations? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. I wasn't better at that. I think you know who knows how things would have gone get me? I'm very fortunate that things didn't turn out terribly. I think it's because I made a lot of smart decisions among many dumb ones. Right? Did you know, I stayed out of trouble in and had fun yet. I smoke marijuana, but they going to other than that, I don't think I really did anything that I am not ashamed of that so but we never talked about it. It's not once so I just looked at it and I said, oh my God amazing, isn't it? What do I do? And I didn't have an answer until I don't do nothing. Exactly. So nothing is being a dancer.

38:27 You have any questions you want?

38:30 That's me.

38:31 No, I think we've covered a whole lot that. I would have covered if we hadn't but no, I mean other than do you have anything that you

38:42 You know that any gyms of truth that you've come across that you feel like I should know.

38:49 The older I get the reason I was so confused in terms of matters of faith for so long was because of I grew up in a in a in a Methodist and which is very very similar to always say Baptist in some ways a little different structurally but very similar and it was until I got to be Presbyterian and the only difference there really is that it finally give me a language to talk about my face and it gave me an ability to see my life In Reverse. I didn't have this great conversion story like everybody else did and I just wanted to see my life and it in a different way and once I got that I was able to see my wife and our life really as a very, you know, not not just lucky but but providential way and I was able to see things and so I would just continue to say to you, you know as we've had conversations.

39:49 Your daughter and things like that. I still see the hand of Providence in our lives and that's important to me to see and for you to know that I see that so well, I love you, brother. I love you, too.