Robert Baumann and Judith Baumann

00:02 I'm Judy Bauman 68 years old. I'm here in Lexington Kentucky where I've lived for 39 years. It's Friday June 17th, and I'm going to be interviewing my husband Bob and I'm a Robert Baumann. I'm a professor of Neurology and pediatrics at the University of Kentucky at the medical center. I am head of the child neurology program director of the Regional Clinic outreach program at the University of Kentucky. I'm also a director on the board of directors the American Academy of Neurology and a director on the board of directors of United a neurological Specialties, which certifies people in their logic subspecialties. And today is June 17th, 2011 and work here in Lexington.

00:55 So Bob around probably 40 years ago. When as you were finishing your residency and neurology after finishing your residency in Pediatrics in Abingdon in the Air Force Under The Berry plan during the Vietnam war. It was a big decision as to where we were coming where we were coming for a job. Now, you're seeing your child neurologist at the University of Kentucky. How did you become interested in children? You know, my parents had their own children's camp. My dad was a group worker. My mom was a psychiatric social worker and when I was about seven my dad always wanted to run right about 7, they bought a small farm in Southern Michigan farm that was played out and so was inexpensive and decided to

01:55 Start a children's camps. So I mean all my Summers I was at camp with other children when I was 13. I started becoming service assistant counselor. By the time I was fifteen, I was a counselor and then I ran the Waterfront and when my dad died my mom my brother and I ran the camp so I've been in the children's business virtually all my life.

02:20 I was at camp like it was called the first called Baumann farm camp and then they realize that farm wasn't a big seller so they called it Baumann Ranch Camp cuz we had horses and my dad like to ride and then they realize that the name Baumann didn't do anything and so they changed it to Camp Conestoga and it started with 17 children in a single Bunkhouse the first year we owned it. There was no running water and I have pictures of myself and my brother taking a bath under the pump out in front of the house. There's no running water if my mom was her decision and no running water was not the not excite her the dead put heat the Houston have central heat. I'll put in running water. And by the time we finished we had 120 Camper's boys and girls and it was a very successful children's camp programmatically.

03:19 The business you make a lot of money in my mom was a very sophisticated psychiatric social worker. My dad knew a lot about dealing with children and I think I learned a lot about dealing with children and plus to some extent the counselors who were adolescents in their eyes were children and I learned a lot about sort of supervising younger people which is been very valuable. Okay, so we got the Pediatric end of it and I know then how did the neurology part come into it? I know your parents your mother used to tell me that you were always known as dr. Bob. So how did that happen? And how did the neurology fall into place? I don't know but I do remember beginning High School. I think I was interested in science and medicine and obviously I think my parents are very good idea physician and whether I decided I was going to be position Vegas I was going to I don't know it all merged. I bet everyone agreed and that's right in high school. My nickname was dr. Bob.

04:19 What time is happy with I mean, I was I was interested. My mom was just psychiatric social was very interest. We had a bunch of friends who are psychiatrist cuz our our home in Chicago was in Hyde Park University Chicago neighborhood and there was a psychiatrist if I knew I didn't want to do sort of behavior stuff like my mom did but so I think I did the other half of the brain stuff, which is neurology because I Knew by the time I went to Tufts for pre-med. I I knew I wanted to be a neurologist call. We moved to Chicago after I finished my internship and you were starting your residency. How did we happen? How did you find out about Kentucky? I remember you're coming home and are actually looking on the map to find out we sort of knew where Kentucky was cuz I'm from Ohio and I used to drive through Kentucky on our way to Florida, but I remember looking

05:19 Map to locate Lexington and why Kentucky, you know, this was before people really advertise for jobs like this. There's no legal requirements to advertise for jobs and special University Physicians. It was it was all old boy. And so David Clark who was the founding a neurologist for the Department of Neurology at University of Kentucky had trained at the University of University of Chicago before he came to Kentucky. He came to Kentucky from Hopkins and so he called and I assumed he called the people Hopkins any call the people Chicago and he says you have anybody who would like to do this sort of thing and I was finishing my residency and didn't know what I was going to do and they volunteered to actually I was very pleased David Clark was probably the best-known child neurologist in America and an opportunity to

06:19 To work with dr. Clark. I mean, I didn't ask all the stuff that people ask nowadays. I don't remember asking any of that. I know specifically I didn't know what my salary was going to be because when we came to after I after I agreed to take the job and we came down here to look for a house. The realtor surprise me saying that I need to know how much I was earning our know how much I could pay on a house and we didn't know and remember we had to call dr. Clark secretary and ask her if anyone at the University knew what I was going to get paid so we came down here and dr. Clark was very charming. And and so we decided to come it is seen to me there is nothing better than you could do. But come work with a v i o l i remember finding Lexington and then you had to check and make sure that we had a viable Jewish community in Lexington, which we did and we decided that your mother could get there. My mother could get there that we were still east of the Mississippi. So

07:19 I worked for the family and I remember one of the things specifically one of your new assignments was going to be taking charge of Outreach clinics in Eastern Kentucky. Otherwise known as Regional Clinic's I think today 39 years later that was 1972. So today in 2011. I think the child neurology program. It's fair to say is best known for its Regional clinics in free or being in charge of them. So what about the regional neurology clinics?

07:51 What would David came he brought his own social worker me early on a day cuz from Hopkins and the thing that bothered David a lot is he would see a lot of patients from Appalachian Kentucky at me but they wouldn't come back and he start treatment and then he couldn't tell what happened to them. David had a very well-known patient among the neurologist a young man by the name of Rufus who I think was from Highland County Fair member crackling and Rufus worked in the Deep Mind and he was about 1920 and I think was good friends with the foreman and his job was that at the end of the day he would go into mind keep place the charges he'd set the charges then he'd leave the mine and then the charges would go off blow out more cold Robin the next day the miners would come in and and my Nicole and so what my understanding was just one day Rufus went in everyone clear the site and he didn't come.

08:52 And and Ethan come out and answer to no one was sure what to do. I mean you wouldn't want to go in if Rufus accept the charges and finally didn't gone long enough that they assumed he had and they found him wandering around and it turns out he was having the Spells where he would stop and stare and then get confused and and and the Assumption was he had one and so they they heard that there was a neurologist and they sent him up to David Clarke in Lexington who found out he had complex partial seizures recently common form of epilepsy and put them on antiepileptic medicine and he came back and he was doing pretty well and they rejected the dos and and then come back.

09:33 I am so the question was with Rufus doing so well that he didn't see any need to come back or or hit something bad happened and baby never found out that he knew he had to run some clinics close to the Eastern Kentucky. She went to the US Public Health Service. He got a demonstration Grant to run neurology clinics in selected Eastern Kentucky counties, and he rented out the health department in Manchester in Clay County about half a clay County's the Daniel Boone National Forest in Pikeville and Pike County, which is in the way far corner of the state and I think he had one other location and it went off pretty well, he would take musically on a day care social worker and he take one or two of his residence in a medical student and they drive out in the morning. They run a clinic during the day and they come back. No one had much experience with neurologist a lot of the doctors in Eastern Kentucky specifically.

10:31 Weren't sure that a neurologist had anything to offer there was a feeling that neurologic diseases are incurable that if you had epilepsy half-up see forever to so it just didn't seem worthwhile to allow these doctors have a patient drive for 3 hours go see someone who wasn't going to do much for doing. Dr. Clark it out there. Sometimes the clinics weren't too busy and often they see a few patients early in the morning and then it'd be sort of quiet now it when we first when I first went to Eastern Kentucky when David went there a lot of the health departments were actually built in town in the jail exercise yard, because in the 1950s when Kentucky start building Health Department's apparently the biggest piece of public land that was unoccupied worthy jail exercise yards and since long-term prisoners were being sent to the State Penitentiary weren't there they were needed and so so for example in Pike,

11:31 The old Health Department was physically Jason and connected to the jail. So what David would do the same thing was true in Manchester, by the way.

11:46 To get it in Manchester. It was right in the health department was right next to the jail. So it seems required they go to the jail and see if there's anyone in the jail with neurologic disease and give him the fact a lot of folks to jail. I had head trauma drinking off and found people with epilepsy in the gym too late. They were able to stay occupied at the end of the three-year Grand. It was pretty successful there soon large number of patient and they thought they had an agreement with the state of Kentucky Health Department that if the grant work that the state would pick up the cost the state didn't actually the director of the health department of change in the interim and the new director had no interest but with David found was that the director of Maternal Child Health was interested in doing it and that the director of maternal and child health would agree to having a children's only clinic and that would be run with maternal and child health people in the local Health departments. So I was hired to do this.

12:44 And so when I came David took me down to Manchester and Paykel introduce me the people there and then I went around to the other counties and talk to the directors of Public Health in the different counties and and signed up basically a bunch of these counties. I went around with Ted hanekamp who was in term of child health was responsible for outreach clinics. So we're David could introduce me Ted and introduce me and we arranged to set up clinics for children only and we arranged to set him up on a regular schedule so that we would be in each Clinic every other month. So everyone know when we would come and we could follow cats get the big reason why to do this as we could provide follow-up and these were always teaching clinics David always took a resident. I took resident and medical students with me because we thought it'd be nice for the medical students menu from rural, Kentucky to to realize

13:44 That you could do high-quality medicine out in in the real counties in the health department and that first year. We had a couple of hundred patient visits over the years. We've greatly expanded the clinics. We now longer. We now no longer have any problem getting patients are problem is having enough doctors and enough patience. Lots to see everyone. We now are in eight counties spread all over Appalachian Eastern, Kentucky from Ashland to Pikesville where in Hazard Manchester Barber Phil Morehead Somerset. So we have a nice network of clinics and last year. We had about a 2000 patient visits the system.

14:34 It's a it's a I think it's been very successful when we first came here and we had two small children there no motel in Eastern, Kentucky. And I remember we would often stay at state parks, which was kind of nice for me and and the kids and we had a good time there, but what's difference you see anything different between the patient population than the nursing staff Ben and and today's patient in today's nurses motels. Some of them were actually dangerous and we wouldn't last day there. There was a hotel in Whitesburg that we used initially and then one night. I think Miss we going to dacus need a towel or something and went up to the manager's office and knocked on the door and found him sitting in front of a television set with a shotgun across his lap and she asked him why and you explained it was for her.

15:34 Text you unless you think the motel in this manner dacus decided we would not stay in that Motel again. So now course they're very nice motels near Kentucky. The reason all those were mom-and-pop motels. Are there nice chain motels is very nice the same thing as if there were no fast food restaurants that I can remember except there were a couple of Jerry's out of Lexington which I should quite nice sit-down restaurants. And so we may need Mom and Pop restaurant switch my medical students liked very much cuz it's mainly home cooking since I was Jewish I couldn't eat some of the stuff that they serve so I had to be careful some of the vegetables have pork in it. I couldn't so we had to ask people very nice would tell me what was in it and the food was quite good Unfortunately, they virtually all been wiped out and it's all fast food restaurants in Eastern, Kentucky. And of course, we stayed in the state parks because they were Far and Away the nicest place in even if we had to drive a distance. It was the nicest place to stay.

16:34 But what about the patient population you saw then it supposed to patient population you see now, is there any difference in them? I think there's no question that our parents are a lot more sophisticated. Our kids are better educated. The the doctors are eager to refers patients. We used to have to do things I did when we started out is initially we had trouble getting patients referred. Number one allowed. The doctors in private practice would not refer to a public health clinic and weren't sure they wanted to refer to the university which debuted is an Indigent clinic and I so I used to it when we go out we spend extra time I go visit all the local doctors in their office and say hi. Tell him what we could do which was which was very helpful. The the other things that that has changed a lot is a lot of the patients that we saw them were relatively isolated.

17:34 Some of them used to English terms that it really going out of fuse for example in Manchester. They would talk about the high Sheriff by which the Matthew like the chair is supposed to the deputies terms, which you don't you don't hear anymore. I think a lot of the patients had figure accents than they do now or I've learned I've learned to understand them. I don't know if you remember but we tried the number of Australian neurologist cowgirl to say we come up with and they would come with us out to the clinic and one of them was Lloyd Shields who practices Melbourne came back to visit the states. Is it For Old Times Sake? Let's go out to the place. We went out to the click and Manchester which was scheduled while he was here. He went out and he saw patients with us just like he did and at the end of it. I I said,

18:34 How was it and Lloyd said she is just like I remembered it. They don't understand a word I say I don't understand the words. They and so Public Health nurses in these clinics. Very dedicated me. This is the lowest paying nursing job in Kentucky is the sort of Public Health Connect in these folks are excellent. That's what the nurse asked one of the ladies who is there with her her youngster. She said, you know, dr. Shields is visiting us you can tell from his accent that that he's not from Kentucky and endless and she said, you know from his accent. What do you think he's from and and she gave this a give his big smile and she says New York. Yes. I have heard that one so I can tell at this actually funny.

19:34 Okay, so you talked about being Jewish down in rural Kentucky not eating the food and I know I ran into some cultural differences when I was practicing dietetics and and teaching patients with diabetes. I'm how did you how are you finding and did you find it difficult to work with this? I'm totally different cultural cultural population for Donnelly whirl and Protestant having grown up tuition Chicago, but it's very interesting a lot of my patients never seen anyone who is Jewish and I don't think realized I was Jewish me patience. Don't wish me Merry Christmas and tell me to have a nice Easter and stuff all the nurses know. I'm Jewish by the way. Did the nurse just tell me if the patient's can't remember names and they say well, which doctor did you see they they they usually say oh, oh we we saw the Yankee doctor with the beard and and of course

20:34 Brought residents who come from virtually everywhere in the world and our our doctors come. I mean, we recruit worldwide comforter to everywhere in the world and I I think our patients have always been happy. If if if if you're good physician and you listen to people and you talk to them, I I think our patients are quite happy to see you one of the things that's very interesting is if there's all these beliefs about Appalachian folks being a sort of suspicious and hostile and saw all the stuff in and it's hard to see that any of that is really true. You know, I did this survey we counted all the kids with epilepsy in Clay County and we also counted in Hardin County Kentucky for comparison and the grandpa had allowed me to hire assistants and I hired the school superintendent's wife, which was very helpful cuz she really knew everybody in the County news.

21:34 Where around and we gave out this questionnaire and parents would mark on the questionnaire if their children had anything that seemed to be seizures and then we'd ask permission to go and visit them. So we we basically walked across Clay County visiting all sorts of people and I mean people were very nice. My problem is if people would want you to sit and talk and and give you food to eat and I had to go at interviews to do and had to get back to the university and people were very welcoming and very nice about it on one of these trips. We also when clinics for slower I take the residents the students and we go visit some of our patients who were who were in relatively remote areas and we're free handicap have trouble get the clinic and one of these things weird, right? We always try to stay car and we have the car you do with the big state emblem at this is University of Kentucky on big letter samples doors, and we were

22:34 Driving down this road and the road should have got smaller and narrower and narrower and then all the sudden we're driving down the center of the stream and it looks like the road resumed up ahead. And as we're driving down the stream this gentleman and bib overalls look like he was in his fifties or sixties came up and knocked on the car door and we're so happy to see him cuz we were lost. We roll down the window and he looked at us and and he looked at the road. He says sure is a bad Road ain't it? And and he said sure glad you boys are down here to fix it up and not the similar. We were in Magoffin County and it has been wet and rainy and we got stuck and you know, these were real world rear wheel drive vehicles and they didn't do well in mud and stuff.

23:34 The neighbors came over to look just have to look at the car and looked at the road and told us to wait a bit and came back with his tractor and pull this out. I mean people been been very and we've been in a lot of very rule areas in Eastern Kentucky and always felt quite comfortable never carry never carry guns. No, I think have a gun in their glove compartment of their own cock been in the state car. We never and I was drove a stake are we were out cuz you never know if you hit a pothole and hurt the car should be the nurse's car should be a state car. But but it's true. I was in the Pike County Health Department and I was with the health officer and we were talking and she went out to run in there and I was going to go to click she came running back into the health department all upset with Mary Fox and Mary was saying someone stole my pistol.

24:34 When do the clerks new Mary freeway to see if there was a map in there and my pistols card and she said dr.fox? When's the last time you looked in your glove compartment?

24:50 Dr. I think about 3 years ago when we were walking across Clay County we drive and then we walk up to people's houses. We came up to one house with a really nice little picket fence and inside took offense is this medium sized dog jumping around and barking and so I didn't have much experience in approaching the free dogs in and so

25:23 The crucial Burton's wife, who is Mike Warnock him up and she and she called to the house anyone home and and someone open the door and she said hi were here too and she's at least it all fine. And she said well, she looks at the store. She says is this a biting dog and the lady of the house looked at the dog and looked at us and said why he ain't bit knowing so far. It's why I learned to ask and ask people to pull the dog in and then and then we went up and did the interview that worked out pretty well, too.

25:57 The love going with you because when I was working at the hospital now when I'm volunteering them occasionally I C medical students making a Mad Dash and it when they were with medical students were our daughters contemporaries. I would tell where you going I'm going with dr. Bauman out to Regional Clinic and obviously, I think it's been a high point in there and their medical education the whole neurology department has changed since you came back in 1972, you and Bill Marksbury where the fourth and fifth members of the department. That's right. We we made we made five members of the Department of Neurology when the two of us arrived and now well now we have 30. We have 30 faculty. I have five child neurologist in another year with will be 6 child neurologist. My guess is we'll be up there around 35 very different department than the one I came. I didn't you have a children's hospital for patients and neurology has its own own individual Ward. We used to run Clinic.

26:57 In pediatric clinic and Medicine Clinic of Neurology was so small. No one running around you need its own space. And now we have a Kentucky Neuroscience Institute of things have changed a lot. Well, I think we said that we had a good run here and in Lexington and as child neurologists in your child neurologist, I think it will be passing on the Baton hopefully within the next day or two to one of your younger faculty, but I know we've always enjoyed, you know, when you appreciative. I mean, I mean, we're in the health department in Pikesville, and it takes us 3 hours to drive there, but we have people from Pike County who takes an hour to drive into Pikeville in order in order to see us. So they're appreciative that we've come far and appreciative that they don't have to go far. You know, the nurse who used to be used to be the senior nurse in Pike County Dale Curry, Dal used to say that if she

27:57 Get her to visit a child anywhere in the county bad as long as she had four wheel drives a good pair of boots and it wasn't raining. She could reach him for and it's true. I mean it started rugged and it's a deal for people to get in and I think they're very appreciative that we've come part of the way. I say a little about how the clinics are structured so that it's not just a day trip from Lexington know. So what we do is it takes about half a day to get love these locations we leave in the morning and then we run a half day clinic in the afternoon and we stay overnight in the motel, which is now very practical to do and then we run a whole day clinic in an adjacent location to next day and then we come back at night. We used to go out the night before because we don't like driving very early in the morning in the mountains because some of the roads aren't that great and and it gets foggy. So it gets really dangerous there such as the Mountain Parkway the sections of the

28:57 College Parkway, that's good very heavy fog early in the morning and you just can't drive on them and our biggest worry, of course, is that is that one of our people to be in a car accident get hurt?

29:10 I think we're done. Oh I can so I can tell you if we have some time. I mean, I mean the other the other interesting and I think that my parents are very interesting. I mean my dad grew up in Jersey City in basically low-income neighborhood didn't have much recreational opportunities at the local boys club and my Dad decided to go into group working with work with children and he got a degree from George Williams College in Chicago, which intercept specializes in that was actually George Williams. We sometimes my dad went through its job. Basically, what's the train people to work in YMCAs?

29:55 And

29:59 My dad, I'm not sure how he did. Did he work for the JCC for a while and see what the whole family moved to Chicago during the Depression because there wasn't much work in. I think they're there in Jersey City do as much work in Jersey City and one of my uncles got a job with seidman as an accountant, which is now seidman seidman with Mr. Seidman. Any winter should call me said this work in Chicago. So my dad came to Chicago in the thirties and his brothers came and his dad mom came in the whole family came to Chicago in the thirties and Dad Dad decided he wanted to work with kids and he got a job with the JCC in St. Louis Jewish Community Center in st. Louis have been working with kids in Chicago. He had a degree and then he helped run their Camp of the Ozarks.

30:59 The camp was fairly wild and we have pictures of dead riding horse bet that was the best way to get around the campus riding horseback and she met mom in Hyde Park and she wanted to visit him one summer and it turns out that one of the members of the board of directors of The JCC with quite wealthy and flew his own airplane. This was in the 30s. We had a two-seater airplane in my mother who is pretty adventurous went to St. Louis got on the two-seater airplane with him and flew into the Ozarks in the small airport. And this is my dad flew back and then in order to work its way through school, you know, they were still orphanages before the United States before the second world war this two are finished and Dad worked in the Jewish orphanage. He in one of his friends in the late thirties and

31:49 And if we met my mom and his friend to work, but they were two of them. The idea was one of them should always be in the orphanage watching the boys. They were about 20 boys and and the other one could be off and then during the day the boys went to school and and my dad and his friend went went to college and so did bit my dad met mom and want to go out with her and and this guy also had a girlfriend and they want to go out together and the way the orphanage was set up. I mean headed home kitchen and the hidden ones bedrooms on study rooms. It was like like a a big house and a big shower room and dad used to talk about they could they could shower have two boys at once and what they would do if they walk the boys into the shower room at a central control a standard of the warden. They turn on the water and all the boys I get wet, then they turn off the water cuz he didn't match my liquid waste hot water the boys would also pop then they turn on the water again, they'd rinse them off.

32:43 And and so dad and his friend decided that if they put the boys to bed that they could go out for a couple of hours together and nothing would happen and they come back and no one would know in a penny. They did it a couple times and then once they came back and they came in the house and the bedroom for empty the Renault boys.

33:05 So they went looking and then a big walk-in cooler in the kitchen and the open the walk-in cooler and they're all the boys in their research and it turned out that the boys went in there cuz they knew it was a Jewish orphanage and they had the wine for Friday night's there and the boys are going in to get the wind and the door is closed. And in those days didn't have in door latch should you can get out and the boys are quote stay warm by drinking all the why do dad was really scared and so is his friend they never went out and never went out together again, and I think this experience really in so it Camp. I mean, you know, we had to sink our own Wells for all our cabins and for our wash houses and weed make your own hot water. So so we would teach everyone to do Camp showers just like Dad did with the Boise orphanage and I still take a shower like that. It's alright.

34:05 No, right choice and underwear to get wet. Then you turned it off and you so puffy you turn the water on because we couldn't afford using all the water in the heat in Camp and keep it for that. So so some of this at Legacy and then my mom was I want the first psychiatric social workers in America. She was from Denver and her dad actually should be it from big family in Denver who did not approve of women going to college and she went to gu Denver University basically against his advice and she earned her way through being a typist and she had a teacher in high school. She was very good friends with who encouraged her to go and get an education. She got her degree and you want to be a social worker and she wanted to get out of Denver and I think away from her dad.

34:53 And my my uncle her one of her brothers was in had been in law school at Harvard two of her brothers became lawyers when a doctor and Uncle Jerry was doing a clerkship with a judge in New York City and said he had friends he could get her a job in New York City and she took a train and went to New York City and Uncle Jerry got her this job. That unfortunate wasn't city was out on Long Island, and she felt she was isolated was very unhappy and rearranged and got herself finally job in the city so she could live in Manhattan because she had no money.

35:35 And so Jerry help find her a place and let her money so she could pay rent in addition. He fixed her up with friends of his as mother explained it so he had some well-to-do friends. He was in Manhattan. He was working for federal judge had very good contacts and mother would date some of the guys who take her and give her a good dinner.

35:57 One of the guys when do the guys father owned a garment Factory and and and they arranged when evening before they went out to dinner that they went over to his father's Factory and picked out a coat because she didn't have a warm coat for the winter. And this was the 36th different though. She got her degree in social work and there she was getting that that's before it was a Masters or just get rid of certificate and Ashley saying that they were started to offer this course in psychiatric social work that is is that you work with a psychiatrist. And so she took the course. She was one of the first train psychiatric social workers. So she went when she went looking for a job at that time to Jewish agencies were very forward-looking as social services and the Chicago

36:44 Jewish agencies the it was the family Family Services Agency had never had a psychiatric social hardly anybody had any wanted one and they hired her mother went to Chicago sight unseen and took this job and then she lived in Hyde Park because apparently a lot of Jewish young Jewish professionals. We're living in Hyde Park dad was looking at a park and we met and of course through most of my childhood. We lived in Hyde Park one of the reasons. I think I became a university Professor was that we lived in the University of Chicago neighborhood in Hyde Park and and I mean dad was a big league role model of what one did and we like living in the university community and you know you and I have lived in University communities and we've been happy with an i and our children three of our Total Wine in to sort of academic medicine.

37:44 And of course so so both of my parents had graduate degrees. Your mom had a bachelor's degree, you know in using she was a violin at night. So I mean for Our Generation that level of Education was quite a short Barbara our oldest daughter used to always say that she was one and I think she didn't really realize this until she was an adult because kids don't talk about this but she's one of the few of her peers who actually has two grandmothers with college degrees. So that was that was pretty pretty unusual. My mom went to Baldwin Wallace college degree in music was a professional violinist and ended up

38:29 Teaching teaching school playing in local orchestras, but that was unusual in those days. Also. I think my mom's experience going from Denver to New York gravy influence the fact that when I graduated high school mom thought that I ought to go to the East Coast.

38:49 And and you know, I went to college at Tufts. We looked we couldn't actually afford to go visit Tufts. We decided applied to that University Michigan University of Illinois. When tops accept me we decided there was no sense spending the money to go to go and visit that we need it just for me to go and in and I went there in a touch of silver these new englanders there only three of us from the three guys from the Midwest me one of the guys from Youngstown Andy Kaufman & Rodger Rosenberg from Milwaukee actually at Tufts people from New York were considered to be far away.

39:27 Before before we finish me ask your mother's name and your father's name. My mom was Evelyn hellerstein. My vanilla Stein Bauman was her married name. My dad was Stephen s Bauman Stephen. My dad actually name was actually salek Bauman, but he wanted an American name and when he graduated high school, he made true that his graduation certificate said Steven rather than Salix defend many you say Luke is his middle name. Stephen s Bauman. We had an American name.

40:05 Hunt end and Judy. What's your mother's name? Janet oppenheim oppenheim Kravitz Kravitz.

40:20 She still living. She's 94.

40:26 All right, and that was my beeper that was going off all the time. I better see who's calling me.