Katherine Shaw and Carol Graham

Recorded June 22, 2011 Archived June 23, 2011 51:38 minutes
0:00 / 0:00
Id: MBX008233


Katherine Shaw (47) and wife Carol Graham (54) talk about their sons, who passed away in accidents in their early 20s.

Subject Log / Time Code

Katherine and Carol met after their sons died. Carol asked Katherine, a landscape architect, to plant a tree for her son. Downtime was hard, and they became friends.
They talk about how their other children handled their sons death. People remember when parents lose children, but not when children lose siblings.
They talk about how their sons’ friends got memorial tattoos. They had really great friends.
They share favorite memories. Their sons were both rambunctious and liked to make trouble.


  • Katherine Shaw
  • Carol Graham

Venue / Recording Kit


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00:02 I'm Carol Ann Graham and I'm 54 years old. Today is June 22nd, 2011, and we're in Lexington, Kentucky and I'm with my friend.

00:17 And I'm Catherine Shaw middle name Williams.

00:21 And I am 47 years old and today is June 22nd, 2011 and we're still in Lexington Kentucky. And Carol is my friend.

00:36 Well Catherine III, we actually were casual acquaintances years ago. She worked for a friend of mine who's a jeweler David Hungerford, and I had met her and possibly one or more of our kids, but we lost contact Catherine went on and had some other jobs and what all did you do after working for David?

01:05 I went back to school and then I did a native landscape consultation and installation.

01:14 Yeah, so I think that's what the intervening years were filled with. Well, I was working at a school called Belmont Middle School where the 6th 7th and 8th grade and special needs kids and now

01:29 On I guess it was right before school was out my son Andrew who was seventeen at the time was involved with Scouts and we had gone and done a a car wash to raise money and then afterwards he and his friends Jessie and Eric had decided to run up to dinks which is a game place in at turfland mall, and there was a really bad car accident which Andrew was hit and didn't survive and now my friend David had we had wanted to put some trees in and he told me that he had a great friend who was the person to talk to about trees and he warned me though that she had also lost her son. Right? So you want to tell what happened with heves? Yeah. It was we found out as we were working on the tree project that it was.

02:29 4 months to the day between our son's death.

02:35 And in August of that same year 2006 Tevis was getting ready to go to school at UK and went out to celebrate with his friends the weekend before at the Red River Gorge.

02:50 And in the early hours of the morning he fell to his death.

02:56 And dumb

02:58 Then I think you contacted me.

03:02 September or whatever because I had it was like the year from hell, right? Cuz we lost Andrew on May 21st. And then in September I was in a really bad car accident this crazy lady ran into me and so we were still trying to get all the memorial stuff for the kids. So I was was I still want to walk her when I I called you and we met out. Where was it was a Paris Pike. Yeah. We went out at a local persons.

03:38 Forest Nursery and I think you would just foregone The Walker but you are you are unsteady on your feet. We had a lot of was a lot of undulating Earth there because you know, what was a nursery.

03:56 But you you were very adamant about walking you are.

04:00 Lingerie felt like I staggered a lot that I was like really off-kilter cuz I still hadn't regained. Just that equilibrium. We're legs are doing what they were supposed to do cuz yesterday when I was in the accident, I broke my right leg in two places and then I shattered my knee. So it took a while to get everything put back in place and become mobile again, and I would think that was early October when we went out and picked out the trays.

04:35 And

04:37 And then we just basically our friendship Grew From then you know.

04:43 Texting time good times and bad times, right? I was hard adjusting to the new people that would cuz I feel like if we had known each other really as friends before we were different people before we lost the boys. Yeah.

05:01 Cuz I know you know, it's hard to have down time where you your mind isn't occupied cuz I know you would started a a company really in.

05:14 And finally had to shut that down before you struggled with the downtime. Yeah. Yeah, cuz I was doing landscape work.

05:25 Full time when Tevez died and I could not stand to be by myself being at home was okay, but that's because at home, you know you have

05:40 You know, if if you start crying all of a sudden, that's okay you're at home. And I know you went right back to work. We'll sort of it. Wait. Wait, I was free for the summer since I work for the school system and we lost Andrew.

05:57 On that Sunday and there were only two days of school left. So of course, I didn't return although I did go up one day more Gina Dundon came over and I did go to see my kids because some of the kids I work with with their special needs one little girl in particular was afraid that it had happened to me. And so I did go back up to school to make sure all my kids saw that I was okay and then I had the summer and for me this summer was horrible, but I had kids all of Andrew's friends and some of my oldest son Daniel's friends. They were there the whole summer I had you had spending the night all over the place. I mean no,

06:45 So that it helped. Yeah, I'm ways. Yeah could see that I know for me since I couldn't go back to the landscape work because it's so solitary, but I had to work financially.

07:03 Through one of my landscape connection is how I got the job at the Children's Museum. And so I started working at the Children's Museum about a month after Tevis died, and I know

07:16 Looking back

07:19 I feel like I was just a Mindless zombie at that point. I don't know how anything came out of my mouth that made any sense and here. I know I was talking to Children about geology and you know, I'm Different fossils and you know social history and you know, the Constitution all the different kinds of things, you know, I taught art and to all those things in at the very beginning

07:47 I really don't know how my I think it would just kind of went into autopilot. I mean, I find that there's gaps that I just don't even know what went on what happened. Just you know, if there was something to do you just did it? Yeah, you didn't really think about it. Yeah, cuz I have emails and letters and things like that, but I don't remember either sending or receiving and I did think about looking back at some of the emails I sent like right after Tevis died and you don't remember I don't remember them and they're especially you don't because I'm very very that you don't like very particular about how I ride and everything is just riding.

08:32 They're almost unintelligible. But

08:42 We survived and I think you know like after your wreck is you you were basically out of commission at the beginning of the next school year, but you insisted on going back to work right away. But yeah, that was it was funny because I was still on the Walker and some of the people ask me if I wasn't afraid that the kids would not me down and I was like they've never not lay down chairs. Why would they wait till I'm on a walker that sounds kind of bizarre to me. But yeah, I went back and the kids were all glad you know to see me. That's one thing. I've noticed with losing our kids in the kids are the young people that were friends with them and friends with my oldest son have really been the most supportive and have been better about what they say. Yeah, you know off of the adults I guess closer to our age have some of them have disappeared from our lives.

09:42 I don't know if it's because I just don't know what to say or we've become such different people that were, you know, not the type of friend that they need in their life anymore. Right all I know cuz I have a good friend from college who lives in Chattanooga who lost her daughter and just the year before in an accident and she told me on the phone one day that she saw people avoiding her and she labeled it the disease, you know, she has a disease that someone else can catch and they're terrified of it and it's you know the tragedy of losing your child.

10:27 Well, I didn't know that until this happened that 19% of parents lose their kids. I was stunned that's a huge huge percentage. And unfortunately, I now know a lot more people who have lost their kids.

10:46 And all all they all very, you know, Andrew was only 17 and he didn't get to finish high school. He still had a year left and I feel like he was really cheated of a lifetime. You know, I'm getting married having kids or you know doing all those crazy things he wanted to do with the chi. The skydiving or kayaking or rock climbing, you know that all of that stuff so

11:14 I'm really Timeless was young like that to how old was he have us was 20 and he was about to start degree in linguistics before for 3 months and had a wonderful time. It was seriously into music and literature.

11:35 And just arts and culture in general.

11:42 Had a lot of friends worked at bellinis here downtown cooking and so had a lot of friends through the you know Food business here in town. And yeah, everything's gone.

11:57 And I think it's it's hard for our kids to hell. Yeah. I know Daniel struggles with it because Daniel was 3 years older than Andrew and they had really become good friends. And you know, if you grow up fighting and bickering off and on and then suddenly, you know, you have you realize that in your house is this great kid that you can be friends with cuz I remember the mother's day before we lost Andrew and the two of them had bought me this bird feeder and they had this steak that the two of them were pounding into the ground and laughing just full and I still have it out in the yard and the squirrels have chewed on it. So I don't put any food in it cuz I don't want to shoot up anymore. You can't take it down. So it's still there, you know.

12:49 Yeah, well, that's funny that you brought up that Mother's Day cuz that Travis and his girlfriend at that time the one he went to South America with they had both made reservations to take Mom out to different restaurants and

13:06 His girlfriend works at Dudley's which is a well-established restaurant here in town to have us worked at bellinis. And then she left at least shortly before Mother's Day. And so she asked Travis to switch and I think the other reservation was for gosh. It's for that place on Vine Street, that's gone. Now. I can't remember the name of it. When were they there? And so we switched and have it took me to Dudley's and it was really hilarious because it was so packed and he was dressed. Okay, but he had his one pair of black chucks and they had that grease kitchen smell that only a greasy kitchen produces in your shoes. And I remember just standing there while we were waiting to get in and we ate at Dudley's.

14:01 And had a good meal and it was really great, but it was so strange because that August just before he died his little sister Leander got hired at Dudley and has worked there off and on ever since and it's just one of those perplexing coincidences don't quite know what to do with them.

14:25 But it's yeah, it's been hard on tennis has a twin sister of Eva.

14:32 And a little sister Leandria

14:34 And one of the

14:39 Interesting things that happened was that Aviva

14:44 Had been dancing since she was a little girl. She started with ballet Under the Stars fell in love with dance like when she was 4 years old.

14:54 Danced all the way into her senior year of high school and then quit.

14:59 And then

15:01 Within that first winter after losing Tavis started going back to one of the companies that she had danced with before on the Bluegrass Youth Ballet cuz she been under rally at another company before she had started her own company started dancing again and worked to pay for it.

15:24 And Adelaide was really gracious and let her do work around the place to help pay and now for the past two years. She's been a professional dancer completely went back into it. She's had her ups and downs with it because of the anniversaries and tough times and I think that's too like people always made a comment to us, but they forget you know, my husband Richard which is Andrew Daniels dad and it's hard on him and it's hard on me. Yeah, but they forget about their siblings a lot of time to just it's just they think that it's everything's okay now and never going to be okay, especially you know with your twin, right?

16:16 Their siblings will people out in the world forget, you know, the comment like for Mother's Day and and holidays the comment like the Katherine and myself, you know, we know that you know, you've lost your son. It must be really hard and running but it doesn't seem like people anymore say Daniel. I'm sure you still miss your brother. Exactly. Yeah, they expect the siblings to get over it and they don't have it.

16:46 Yeah, I would agree with that. And well, I know there's a man who lives another block over for me and he it's funny how you're so used to work heads do he had been working on the chimney on the house next door? And of course, we still had just dozens and dozens of kids ran in and out all the time and he had this machine that went up along the chimney that he did repair work on and the next day came over and said he want to talk to me and I'm figuring the kids been playing with his machine cuz it would be something they would do and and he said no, he said I just want to tell you I lost my brother. You know, when I was young and how hard it's been for the siblings that he said even as you get older because he said I've stood and cried in front of a mirror and said I wish my brother was here. My parents are getting older. I want somebody to help me make decisions. I want somebody just to tell me what

17:46 I do because these crazy people were there just doing weird things and I don't know what to do and he said and some days I just miss my brother. Yeah, and he gave me a poem but his brother his brother knew he was going to die. He had an illness in.

18:02 Took me back. I mean, yeah, and it helped remind me how important is Daniel.

18:11 Yeah, I bet it's not all about me or you know, Richard Wright.

18:19 Just it's a different world now and we see things differently, I think.

18:26 The kids have been really good about coming around and

18:31 Doing things with us. One thing that when Andrew was in the hospital dying and I was trying to figure out something we could do and David Hungerford who was our contact was some when the kids were little and Andrew was not in their troop. But his son Jesse was Andrews best friend. They known each other since they were about 6 months old and he used to make fingerprints for Mother's Day for kids give their moms and scalp and it just dawned on me that I needed Andrews fingerprint. And so I called David and it came back to the hospital and made Anders fingerprint.

19:13 What's really generous?

19:16 Because he gave up all the for free.

19:26 And he wouldn't take any money and I can help because Daniel my oldest went over and helped him make the fingerprints and

19:35 Ham he made over a hundred of them that time and I think ultimately they ended up with close to 300 fingerprints that David generously gave all of his friends and I've had stories of kids to see each other at the mall and they'll spot the fingerprint and how go you knew Andrew or Andy some of the kids calling Annie and they'll sit and tell stories about him. So

20:04 That's in some ways been helpful cuz lot of his friends still wear the fingerprint and all the time.

20:12 Yeah, I remember that and David said also that it was probably the hardest thing he's ever done. Well, I know he's he's refused when other people have asked because he said, you know, he was too hard and hurtful.

20:27 But Andrew was part his yeah, I would agree and like Jesse is part hours rain.

20:36 And I think I don't know about teves is dad with you know, Richard. I know it's been hard for him to accept but he has been able to handle it. I don't know that better but differently than I have which for some people is difficult. I had a lot of people ask me if we were going to get divorced and I was like, you know to learn to accept somebody else's way of grieving. Yeah it is it is very very different. And what about Travis's dad? How did he I really am uncertain as to how he's dealt with it just because he is not very communicative about it. And so I just you know, if

21:23 Let him be in that regard. I know it's been tough for the girls in that regard and that that's that's what I'm more connected to is for a Vive and Leandria. I call it a roller coaster ride.

21:40 Because even though you know what the analogy doesn't completely fit but you know, you're just always at a different place on the ride, you know, the dips the high is the Speedy Parts The Twist the turns and

21:57 If you ever end up in the same place at the same time on this journey of grief, you just it just happens, you know where you get to share a happy moment or really sad one cry together. Yeah, just never ever knowing. So I've I've really learned for myself. I think you know, that's part of what our friendship helps us to do is to just going to hold that with open hands and just you know be there if if that moment over occurs where we share the grieving process, I think it helped too because we can still accept how the other one had like, I know you like to listen to music that Tevis loved and you like to watch things and a lot of times with the music if it was one of Andrew's favorite. I can't listen I have to go it hurts too bad now and that's another thing with grief that people don't understand that everybody.

22:57 Deals with it very differently, right? I agree and it and see it's so variable like them the other day. I was listening to a specific song and I just put it in my CD player and I just had to listen to it like about six months and it was radiohead's Pyramid Song and I'm in the car and I just started bawling my eyes out completely unaware that I was going to do it just you know, hit me at that moment and it kind of ties to the pictures to you know, with the looking at pictures. Can you look at pictures and then for me doing photography is one of my is there a peace I've always, you know been into it but continuing to photograph.

23:52 Everything around both we've kind of develop this thing with photographing the memorial tattoos that have sprung up right over our boys and that's been a surprising to do if I can honestly say I was anytime of a tattoo person but I don't even know the number of kids that have asked if it was okay if they had a memorial tattoo for Andrew and stood and watched. I think I've been in at least half the tattoo shops in Lexington now with kids getting tattoos for Andrew some really touching ones a lot with trees because he was

24:36 He and his friends Eric and Jessie were tree kids. They had ropes up in our trees at the house that I am really in the maple tree and they had them going between the trees they would walk on them and they had them hanging and so a lot of the tattoos have priests in them for Andrew.

25:00 That's okay. I'm just curious. How did that make you feel as a mother to see his friends through these memorial tattoos. So it was wonderful. Yes. All these kids would want to have memorials for our son's I mean actually it's overwhelming it was

25:20 I guess it was just something that I never thought about one way or another and for many of them. It's been very important. They've even added stuff on to some of them as they thought about things with Andrew.

25:36 And ironically I don't have any tattoos. I'd like Catherine who spent, you know, probably weeks and weeks figuring out the tattoo to remember Tavis Rye. Yeah. Yeah. I have a pretty sizable Memorial tattoo and a number of Travis's friends have them too and the two girls have have tattoos mine came from a book. My grandmother's book. She was an artist.

26:07 And she had a book from 1947 called symbol signs and signet's and Travis had kind of picked out something. He wanted to be a tattoo never did it ended up dying before you ever got one and Leandria my youngest and I were looking shortly after we lost him at the book and that image didn't mean anything to us. But then we saw something that was kind of a stamp for a calligraphic signature from Westminster Cathedral that look like it said to have a good actually said to Chulas on it and with the tattoo artist Robert a Charmed Life.

26:50 Worked on incorporating all the stars that were in the sky and the planets from the sky cuz that's what the Red River Gorge is about a lot. The truth guys, just so beautiful.

27:03 So I did that and then leandra's is a variation on an extra piece and then Aviv and I both have to have his signature.

27:14 And Travis's friends. One of the jokes with Travis's friends. He had a girlfriend who botched a haircut while he was still in high school just did a horrible haircut on him. And so he decided to have all of it cut off but they put racing stripes on the side. He buys it and then he had whoever did it for my don't remember who did it did his name but instead of tev is he did it tevi dollar sign and them so he walks around school like that cuz he was pretty audacious and

27:51 It became like heavy money and stuff like that just silly nicknames in one of his really good friends. Dan has a big tattoo on his forearm of tevi dollar sign number of them have Teva says because it would say all kinds of preposterous saying so they would laugh at them see going once were a big issue for Travis's friends and that's kind of where the emblem on Travis's gravestone comes from.

28:26 Because they all had kind of like a a pirate seafaring thing going on that was kind of like a little

28:35 Intimate communication between all of them, you know that they would all know so there are number of them that are like that.

28:44 And photographing them to me is a big part of it. I think.

28:52 Participating in it

28:55 Honoring or honouring it is a big deal and then

29:02 Photographing

29:05 The grieving process because people hide from grieving so much and I know us parents, you know and talk to any parent has lost their kid. Their biggest fear is that people are going to forget their child. Absolutely and

29:24 It doesn't really make logical sense, but not very much about life is really about logic. So anything that reminds us that someone's thinking of our time will I know when Daniel decided to get his tattoo he went over to a friend of mine is a tattoo artist and he went over to Ray's Tattoo shop and he just got us a little Asian character. That means little brother behind just had to put on his ankle and he was really quiet about it. You know, we just

29:58 Didn't really want to say a whole lot or help people much. It was just something very personal for him.

30:07 And you know, I should say to like a reason I contacted you was because I wanted the trees right and we picked out or do we pick out two of the Burr Oak trees and then three of the tulip poplars in and planted those at up at Lafayette and Rye High School where he went which ironically enough, you know, that's where Tavis went to HighSchool. Also one of those tulip poplar was really for Tevis.

30:38 And the memorials help. Yeah, but I don't think people realize that they don't bring back your your son. I mean cuz I know for us we had there's a bitch I put Lafayette for Andrew and then the Kentucky reptile zoo. There were so many donations that Jim Harrison and Kristen have one of the buildings down there that's dedicated to Andrew and a lot of people will come in on that and I do appreciate it so much because he he really loved him and Kristen and like to go there but I'd take him back over and eat anything. There's just nothing means what your own child is Lee. I still haven't decided there's a pile of money at the Lexington public library.

31:31 But I'm supposed to decide what to do with and I haven't decided yet. So and memory of Tevis Tevis was so active that something like even though they ran in different spheres. They were both really active and people oriented people owe most daphnia and

31:53 So like for me the idea of just buying some books and putting Travis's name in them is kind of meant turn off what's an active when we're the kids being

32:06 Just so alive, right exactly. So I haven't really figured it out yet, but I need to talk to someone about what to do. Right what to do with that money. That is something like maybe sponsoring on a riding.

32:24 Group initiatives for children, you know young people so and I think something like that would be a much better idea. Probably, you know,

32:36 Can I ask for anyone who listens to this recording?

32:51 I don't know. There's probably lots of favorite memories, you know, I love thinking about all the stuff that we did as a family with Richard and Daniel and Andrew and all the stuff that both the boys did we took lots of trips. We camped a lot, you know, we went from coast to coast in Canada to Mexico and he was real active with the scouts and you know, there's lots of funny stories like his two best friends were really Jessie and Eric and when we had taken a bunch of Scouts to the Keys, we stopped in Fort Lauderdale and let the kids swim and one of the adults there looked at me and said, are you afraid of them swimming out there and I laughed and said now I'm afraid they're going to want to bring that buoy back there. Like what and I said because of that you disconnected and bring it back. Somebody's going to have to take it back out there and they're like, he's serious that's the way those boys minds work. And so they eventually swam back and came up and the guy goes what we are thinking about their

33:51 Out there in like out we're thinking about how we could disconnect this is like how did you know that I said it's from years of being around boys. That's the way they think exactly that's a good one. I like that. I guess the first member that pops to my mind and it might be because I was looking at some pictures that are related to it recently Teva said his friends were pranksters and this is tied to Lafayette. And and of course they decided to do this at a night when I wasn't available cuz I was in a girlfriend's wedding in Nicholasville. They had to come up with a plan. It was Travis and his friend Nate and Chris and bread and two other boys at the time so they were freshmen and sophomores and they had come up with a plan to run onto the football field during the last home game dressed in costumes, and this was just after 9:11.

34:51 So they made sure that they didn't have anything that looks like a weapon bribe very cognizant of that and they had they had no plans to disrupt the band or anything like that either they even had checked with some of their band friends to see if it was okay and there was a banana costume a cowboy Spider-Man a pirate and maybe a goblin or something and

35:22 They were just going to run out onto the field and run around and be silly and Travis was in the cowboy costume which was too little for him. And I think he had contributed the Spider-Man costume. And I now am the owner of the banana and Nate the other friend was going to be the videographer and he he said he filmed the whole thing and they ran out on to the field but someone you know, kind of like playing telephone had passed along the story and by the time the story reach the principal.

35:59 They were going to just create Mayhem with the band. So he had hired a number of people to be extra security that night and Nate has filmed Travis being tackled by an armed security person and one of the boys.

36:22 In the banana costume. It was one of the twins Britt or Chris with his hands raised because the security guard who was a female security person with a gun look like she was reaching for her holster and he raised his arms and yell don't shoot the banana. Of course, they all became quite famous. Lafayette has a bad. Yeah, and that was just the kind of silliness that they would get into, you know.

36:57 Not harm just Preposterous things and I think they got a 3-day suspension out of it. We parents all went and argued with the principal but he didn't want to hear anything about it. The vice principal could not stop laughing while he was holding the kids.

37:20 I thought it was hilarious. I loved it because it was one of those things just as it is now you're not going to forget it. You know, it was just a really fun Preposterous original thing to do and I love that. I think both of our boys were a lot like that and it's overwhelming to think that they're gone. Ye just because they were such good people and they were so young you and you know, I used to laugh and tell him that you know, she's good friends.

37:55 And I mean you might think your kids have great friends. But wow, when you lose them you've realized that I still keep in contact with a huge amount of Andrew's friends from the girls. The former girlfriends like Emily and Taylor and you know his friend Becca and just I couldn't begin to name all of them like Bonnie and the rest of them that are good about just a random times. I'll get a text message thinking about you remembering Andrew room and so he listened and he chose really good friends and they've helped me make it through this journey that has

38:35 You know not the one I had anticipated as a parent. I don't know about you. Not one bit Noah, it's it's just hard to imagine. I was just thinking about it the other day.

38:47 Lake

38:50 I'm really I mean, you're probably one of the closest friends I have just in that you understand right, you know what's going on or not going on but it's hard to believe that we're friends because we've lost our boys that's very true. But it's that moment where we can be real with each other where we kind of have to

39:13 Create like a little bit of put on a costume in a way for other people. Yeah, cuz I don't feel like I'm being fake but I feel like I can't be completely myself with the majority of other people because the rawness of it and the longevity of it is so overwhelmingly. Most people what's like you said earlier. It's been five years were like in the midway between when I lost Andrew and when you will lose, you know tab has five years ago and

39:49 It's just so overwhelming. It doesn't seem like it's been 5 years and sometimes it seems like it's bending it. Exactly and a lot of people think we should be over it. But you know if a person is important in your life, do you ever get over them? When do you ever forget them? Do you ever not wake up and say gosh I sure wish you know, Andrew and Travis were here.

40:18 I don't think so cuz I wish they were here everyday. I wish we could be friends for you put in notes. You did the notice in the paper. I did I couldn't know right and I planted the Cardinal Vine at the cemetery and at home because of a a picture that I took of Travis just before he went to South America because my portrait photography is really important to me and Mariah took that beautiful picture of him and I've done drawings of it. I'm hoping eventually to finish that and actually do a show and side of the planet at the cemetery because of that gigantic fling light shocking red flowers.

41:12 And there's just a vulnerability about that picture and just being able to do something to remember and I don't know if I can get through that. I want to share at least a part of the poem that headstone. Okay, cuz I think

41:33 And I shared it at the memorial that were Andrew at the right when they dedicated the building, right and I think Slade Kentucky. It's just point to the fact that I think um,

41:49 Our boys were so different but in some ways they were so similar and hopefully we're not breaking any copyright law. This is by Mary Oliver and it's the summer day. And the last half of it is on Thomas's headstone. It's who made the world who made the Swan and the black bear?

42:13 Who made the grasshopper this grasshopper? I mean the one who has flung herself out of the grass. The one who is eating sugar out of my hand who is moving her Jaws back and forth instead of up and down who is gazing around with her enormous and complicated eyes.

42:37 Now she lifts her pale forearms and thoroughly washes her face now. She's snaps Her Wings open and floats away.

42:47 I don't know exactly what a prayer is. I don't know how to pay attention how to fall down into the grass how to kneel down in the grass.

42:58 How to be idle and blessed how to stroll through the fields which is what I've been doing all day.

43:06 Tell me.

43:08 What else should I have done doesn't everything die at last and too soon. Tell me what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life.

43:22 Good.

43:28 I think it really exemplifies both of them.

43:34 I was just too short.

43:40 I agree and you came out for me when I read the poem on Tabitha's birthday to ground. That's another big part of our friendship is showing up and being there. I don't think many people understand the support and how much it means but when you decided to go down there to the radio station. Just, you know felt like I wasn't at work that day and it wouldn't, you know her to show up and

44:13 Maybe Linda shoulder and now

44:18 It's sad that we lost other people we lost in tonight.

44:25 Oh the lady who lost her son who we all got together with a decade of its right and she passed away of cancer. And another person with hard. We can't share. I think it's helped us and that we have kids. Yeah, and we talked about that before we have another friend who lost her only child and I think her journey is a lot more different. I don't know this more difficult, but it's different because I always knew I still had to get up every day and let Daniel know that I love him as much as Andrew and then I think you've been the same way with LeAndre and Aviva. Yeah that they have to go on and with their lives are just as important as Tabitha's I would agree and at the same time I would say it's still always a choice because I remember you sharing with me about someone that you knew that had lost her child and had completely checked out on her other children. Well, that was some

45:25 Mark Blevins that he has taken care of his mom right that she lost her son and it does tell you that it is a choice, right and the lady that reached out to me right after Tevis died because she had lost her son six or seven years to the day before Tevis is death.

45:49 She she said to me and I just I have always kept it. She said you can choose to go crazy and let someone else take care of you. You can kill yourself. You can just go wacky on drugs or something like that or you can choose to live in and survive and move on with your life forward and she said it's it is just a choice that you have to have been hard there been lots of days that I'm sure we just sat at home and did nothing but cry, yes, but in some ways I think we're still moving forward our kids are doing pretty well. I guess we know Daniels in school again and you know, he seems to be doing as well as you can expect and Leander in a Vive seem to be moving forward and

46:48 Which is good. Yeah it is and I'll be under the chemistry major now. So I'm really proud of her too. So.

47:00 We're still going we are.

47:05 Be there for each other through the years.

47:09 Future Generations listen to what? Would you like them to know about Andrew from Tevis?

47:18 Well, let's say Andrew.

47:23 Was just an amazing in person. He loved the outdoors. He loved his family is brother. His dad is Mom his friends.

47:35 He was a big and Boy Scouts. He was working on his Eagle project when he passed away and his best friend took it over and you know finish the project.

47:50 He was a good person now.

47:53 I like that what you say about to have us Travis was just a really amazing individual. I really was proud to be his mom.

48:06 Dumb a really valued his friends so much and I know he was there for some of them and some pretty dark moments even though you know, he didn't last very long himself.

48:20 And he was a very creative person and

48:26 I just

48:28 Remember just had a lot of self-sacrificing about him to that people didn't see outwardly, but he really did he held his tongue. So many times he knew how to do that as a very young person knew how to advise people.

48:48 When they had difficult decisions to make it was just there for people and he was there for his sisters and you know it something I just thought about like physically cuz Andrew was probably taller than me. So it was probably like 5455 and slender build strong, you know, I had red hair and blue eyes and I remember somebody came to house not too long ago and jumped up in the maple tree and just hung on to the branch and I said, we'll pull yourself on up and they're like what you could always add and Jessie and Eric it was nothing for them to pull themselves up into a tree into and I'm on up like monkeys strong. They were healthy.

49:37 Intercourse with a red hairy was fair-skinned and had freckles but he had a cheerful disposition and yeah and never ever met a stranger. I just I remember one time being on a ferry ride and he befriended this guy that looked to be homeless and pitiful clothes and we're getting ready to leave and he goes stop the car. Stop the car and Slams on the brakes and Anna Russell when he goes I live at 570 rosemill Dr. Come and see us sometime now. He didn't see differences in people the way a lot of people do you just thought the guy was really nice guy and I'm proud that he was like that that is really neat. I like that. I kept waiting for the guy to show up.

50:32 Oh gosh.

50:35 It's a sad way that we started our friendship.

50:40 But we're lucky to have each other. I think there are evil out there that don't have

50:46 Friendships to help them. I mean, I'm lucky because I have Richard and he's very supportive and he understands he can almost tell when he looks at me in the morning.