Donald Boesch and Eric Davidson

00:02 I'm done boss and I'm 72 years old and today is December 13th, 2017. And I'm here at the age. You meeting in New Orleans my relationship to my partner here is Eric is that we are faculty colleagues at the same Institution.

00:24 My name is Eric Davidson. I'm 61 years old today is December 13th 2017. I'm here in New Orleans at the fall meeting of the American geophysical Union and my relationship to to my partner here is that we are colleagues at the University of Maryland Center for environmental science and until just a few months ago. I don was my boss.

00:56 So don, we first met in 2014 when you interviewed me for a job at the University of Maryland Center for environmental science where you were present at the time and I warned you that I've been nominated for president elect of the American geophysical Union and that if I won that election, I'd have to devote a considerable amount of my time to a t a g you but you hired me anyway, so what did you think about that? What does that say about what you think about service for organizations like this for University professors? Well, if you remember I was anxious to get you moved in with us in a board. So we wanted to help help build your lab the laboratory Appalachian laboratory that you were developing that you've been developing having said that you know, I'm Sciences they is a team sport and it's not just the team with in 1 in

01:56 Tution but it's all scientist. And so I saw your contribution to such a distinguished position. The National Organization International Organization really is something that contributes to the field that we all feel an obligation to do but further. I thought it would really bring benefit Sandra down now to our institution and make us more engaged in Better Community contacting with the broader community of Science & the public and you haven't disappointed and you've you've done both duties both that both at the Appalachian lab and and as well as a GU, so thank you so much and I have to say you or your colleagues you faculty colleagues are very proud of your service to to agu and come to the scientific Community. Thanks. I'm glad you made that decision. I've been glad ever since so fast forward a few years and here we are in New Orleans. It's December.

02:56 2017 at the agu annual meeting and we're here together in part because I sort of turn the tables on you and I asked you to moderate a plenary session here that was entitled why we are still in can you just say a few words about what was that about? And how did you think that session went?

03:17 What was session that you asked me to moderate was to bring attention to the scientific Community to the fact that a number of organizations businesses that local governments States and universities have declared that the we are all committed to reducing. Our greenhouse gas emissions in limiting the amount of climate change it and this movement the really grew after President Trump announced his intent to remove the US from that agreement in June on June 1st of 2017. So quite quickly this large number of over 2500 institutions has made a declaration that yes, we are still in. So the session involve me as a moderator with with my background in higher education Administration talk in a little bit about what universities are doing in terms of making that

04:17 Amendment but also we had three very distinguished and interesting panelist from the local government here in New Orleans that representative of the deputy mayor of the city. I'm mayor of a of a city is smaller city in in Indiana Carmel, Indiana who was in the Republican and in a very republican-dominated area who still in and and the secretary of the environment of Mexico City, so it was quite a good Lively discussion. I think they all did well how the audience was engaged. You know, it's a huge you were there that huge theater that we were trying to fill in everyone's out to lunch. So they have been I think you would have been great all I think I would have made a greater is that more hu members of attendees would have been there. We had a good crowd but it would still been helpful to have more sick because I think they need to learn how their science makes a difference in how it is being used and how

05:17 NRA institutions the businesses as well as the governmental institutions are not giving up. We're still moving forward to do our part to meet America's really responsibility by climate change. I can only speculate I mean we had a decent crowd but if I agree with you it wasn't as big as I would have liked I can only speculate that maybe one of the reasons we didn't get a bigger crowd is so we should put something more explanatory in the title. I think a lot of people don't know about what we are still in movement even among scientists who are passionate and very knowledgeable about climate change issues. So, how can we get more information? I guess that that's plenary session is one way, but how could we get more information out to academics and I'm thinking academics cuz we are both academics to to get their universities and colleges engaged in part of this.

06:17 Movement, right? I think that's a good thought cuz I had a similar experience and talking with people before the session who saw it on the program. It didn't know what it was all about. And I think they could more of them understood they would be there but having said that I still think it is the case where a lot of that scientists who are full. So focused on their own work have a growing concern about how science is being used and are frustrated about that but need to understand the process into fact that institutions are paying attention. So I think they're you have various communication vehicles in a GU that you sent out information to members and I think they to you could help make that boar make its members were aware of this and the other thing I think we had in the discussion yesterday is I asked the the community leaders what what could scientists do what in your community there red

07:17 Science of these of cities all over this country and around the world what role could they play citizens of their of their communities to have good input to help understanding and to help provide advice for responsible action?

07:32 So you played a very instrumental role in getting all 12 presidents of the 12 universities of the University system of Maryland and the chancellor to sign on to the we are still in pledge. Did you get any pushback was it a difficult sell in any way or that some of them bring up some concerns that you had to address before you got them on board? You know it really you really didn't I think it took me just a few days to get them all aboard and and it really Better Built on a lot of other work that we've been doing. So all 12 are institutions all of our presidents of all already made a presidential commitment under the the organization that universities and colleges call second nature. So we're all already signed aboard on making a commitment to achieve a carbon-free carbon neutral environment toward the middle of the century and we're all taking steps to lower our mission.

08:32 So in the sense of actually doing what were committing to under we are still in bed already committed to that now there up. There are some institutions if you look at the list of people involved in the book that the second nature climate commitment there more of them than there are and we are still in so they're obviously some institutions leadership that were concerned that this might be a little too political because I came out after the the President Trump's announcement. But in reality it's not political. It's just saying, you know, we understand that that that announcement but I wish we still feel compelled to do our part to honor this nation's responsibilities while in that vein trying to make it a political or at least bipartisan. We took great efforts to make sure that we had a Democrat and Republican Administration. Mayoral Administration present and also an international perspective cuz this isn't just a response to

09:32 A US government. It's an international response. But it seemed to me that they were all sharing fairly common perspectives on how these sorts of Investments that they're making at the local level to reduce their emissions as part of that pledge is Rick going to yield a whole bunch of other benefits that they can easily justify with their with their constituencies, right? I think so Eric and you know the in Maryland where we live we have a republican Governor. Our legislature is dominated by democrats, but they passed legislation that set the set the requirement that I've State reduce its emissions by 40% by the year 2030 Republican Governors. Are there differences policy differences about exactly how you achieve that and what instruments you achieved incentives and Investments achieve to do it, but at least in our state

10:32 Demonstrated that this is not partisan in that that we weed once we understand the scientific with the scientist ounces, which we are compelled to take action different different approaches different solution to get there. But we all had it the same way. So if our grandkids go to the Library of Congress and Playback this recording in 2015, at least I'll be able to say that we gave it a try right? Yes. In fact, you know it my stage in my career the fact that my I spent most of my career not really engaged in climate change-related researcher science, and it's only really been since the the last 15 years or so. It part of my motivation is my grandchildren frankly because I see these changes that are projected from the perspective of their their lifetimes and the recognizing that they'll be alive later in the in this in this century and have to deal in there.

11:32 Children will have to deal with the most severe consequences that could be consequences many of which that could be avoided by taking action now in our generation and they won't have that opportunity. To reverse them then.

11:49 So speaking of your career, this is sort of a homecoming for you you grew up here in New Orleans and went to college at Tulane and you returned here after your PhD in oceanography to start and direct the Louisiana universities Marine Consortium

12:06 I would guess so that was back in the eighties. I would guess that sea level rise and climate change where we're mostly not on the agenda of critical scientific her social issues in those days. Do you see this through a different sort of lens now? And do you think that stakeholders in this region are responding appropriately? Well, I write it is it is rolling you on the agenda, but my history with a New Orleans actually goes back much deeper than that Mike. I'm a fish 5th generation New Orlean the end and my ancestors arrived here mostly in the 1830s and 1840s and I kind of again just as I mentioned with respect to the future with my grandchildren, I I try to understand the past and the changes that have taken place from that history of my family and indeed there been phenomenal changes environmental alterations to this Delta.

13:06 Don't know which New Orleans sits and and we have that it's always been a somewhat dangerous place to live because the river and the floods of the river hurricanes in the like but now of course we see a compounding of that with the destruction of coastal lands that provide some buffer from storms as well as now this new threat of for example accelerated sea level rise.

13:33 So in Louisiana to their credit, they I have worked on a master plan to deal with protection as well as restoration texting people and restoration of the coastal environment and the plan is now in its third iteration its Third Generation in this time. It's really taken into account the potential of much greater rates of sea level rise. So they have scenarios three different scenarios that involve three different assumptions about the rate of sea level rise like that. Make a long story short. The high-end one is really serious. And then and it's it's hard to imagine how many communities can be maintained under that so it provides a motivation to take action to protect people. But what unfortunately what is not well connected to this is that those scenarios whether we will have the high-end sea level rise really depends on

14:33 Depends on what we do is the global Society in terms of reducing our emissions greenhouse gas emissions and a part of the reason why the public and the political Community here in this state have a hard time going. There is the fact that this this the economy is is dependent or least perceived to be highly dependent on the production of fossil fossil, fossil fuels oil and gas for sure also at coal export things of this sort. So they understand the risk, but they're not connecting two actions that can be taken to reduce that risk. So that's one of the things that I'm trying to I'm trying to deal with I think it was like it was Upton Sinclair. I don't have the quote exactly who wrote many years ago about it's it's really difficult to convince a man. He said in those days to believe something when

15:32 His job depends his livelihood depends on not believing it. And so that's the conundrum that that we're I tried to address and it's the same conundrum that coal miners have, you know, the reality of what their business does you contributing to global warming and they see it that is a risk to their their livelihood and well-being. So those are the challenges that we have none of that here in coastal in Louisiana and New Orleans put around the world.

16:02 So that's a nice segue into what is what is our job as University faculty?

16:12 I guess traditionally our job has been keeping our nose to the grindstone and and teaching and doing research but you've got a career in which you've really been involved in figuring out ways that science can help inform policy. But I've heard a lot of Faculty from many University say that well, they're not encouraged by their supervisor. So they aren't as fortunate as I am to have had somebody like you encouraging this so in many universities, I'm sorry to say that tenure and promotion is is focused on things that are very different from being involved in applications of of science policy. So when did you first get involved and who sort of gave you license to do it or did you just decide to do it on your own? And and and what do you have to say? Why would you counsel scientists?

17:12 Who are in that position now?

17:15 Well, I I'm actually I think it's some bucks in innate and in terms of how you were the principles under which you were raised terms of your sense of social responsibility. I think that's in the background for me, but that specifically when I was a graduate student, I actually had a fellowship that came from the predecessor agency to EPA the Environmental Protection Agency. So it was to do my research but it was too also do it at that end up in a my proposal was to do it in a way that would provide practical utility to the science tube in this case improve water quality. So that gave me an orientation to do that but still for early-career, I I I was doing that in the form of writing papers publishing papers that sort of thing. I didn't really cut them walk across the street and begin to talk to policymakers like like most folks if you were taught that nuts.

18:15 Part of your job. But also it's a little intimidating because it's a different process if I work graduate work and then it did the postdoc and then came back to the Chesapeake Bay Region just at the time when there was growing awareness of the extent of environmental degradation and that it occurred in that great Estuary. And so there was this large program quite honestly many people fought at so great a great way to fund my research, but it had a very practical objective and that was to help the Congress and help EPA understand what the nature of the problems were and what could be done about it. So that experience got me really involved in in a speaking truth to power if you will and I found it.

19:11 Rewarding in many ways one is that allowed my me to think more broadly than just the way scientists think about problems and it's been communicating with them and I made me grow as an individual but it's also rewarding because you can actually see some sometimes it's frustrating difficult. You don't see much happen, but when they do happen because of work that you did this is tremendous feeling that you've done the right thing. And in that even though you might in might not have the permanence that we all like to see in our name and Publications that will live forever those. Those are those games that have been made or or lasting in and you are partially responsible for it. So, I think it's if you take my right mind approach to it, it's very rewarding. I think also I think the culture in higher education is changed in recent years more towards responsibility to society certainly the ethic in our profession.

20:11 And the Earth sciences and environmental Sciences has

20:16 What you and I were together this spring in Washington DC and we join tens of thousands of scientists and supporters of Science. And we participated in the March for science in that City and many others were doing the same in other cities around the world. We encouraged our students to participate and many of them did and are including our and many young faculty did it as well. So under your leadership our Collective leadership, we made it clear that this was an okay thing to do. In fact, it was a good thing to do and I also remember that many of the students were really impressed by the fact that you told them that you had marched on DC since you are a young man during the Vietnam war about 50 years earlier. So what motivated you to pick the March for science, I'm 50 years later to be the one that you were willing to get out there and

21:16 March on the street for

21:18 Yes, well, I am a child of the sixties and grew up in that in that are aware of any in. My generation was either going to die on the fields of Vietnam War or very concerned not only about their own prospects, but also about the way this country was moving. So in that case, in fact, it's just about exactly 50 years ago. I think 50 years ago last in November when I went to my first March in Washington, I drove up with some colleagues and and and and and marched on the Pentagon to show that the my commitment to change in direction of this country went the next year for another March in Washington. And then since then I had a dry spell if you say I haven't watched on Washington until this year actually our guy actually watch them Washington twice this year once was the March for Science and then I just a short time later the climate March and both were really

22:18 Lifting to me you were there the March for science. It was it was it was really amazing how many fellow scientists felt so strongly about what we do and why it's important for society to take advice to to listen to the science. But also the importance of this nation to support the scientific Enterprise. It's one of the things that that's made America great and ending in an enlisted great concern from scientist about the withdrawal from that contract. If you will the support science and climate change simile, I think the interesting thing about it also was how many non-scientists do you at that March people citizens who were concerned about this wasn't just scientist marching, but it was lots of people in society marching with us. And so I think that was uplifting what why such a long.

23:18 Maybe nothing Rose to the occasion by thinking that I personally should be involved in it. Certainly have we live close to Washington all those years, but they may not be my last March.

23:30 I was wondering if there might be some link between the fact that it and the Vietnam War are there was a time when?

23:38 As I understand it our government was actually presenting information that was incorrect about the progress of the war. And so, you know, they didn't far as I know didn't use the word fake news back in those days. But in essence the government was deceiving its citizens and I think a lot of the interest in the March for science.

24:05 Was engendered in park at least by a sense that we're not being spoken to directly and truthfully and now you have a much broader longer perspective on that then then I do. What do you think that there's a parallel there that hopefully only shows up once every fifty years or something like that. Well, I think there been many other causes where they've had they've had marches and civil rights and a lot of other things but I guess the other thing that that got me very enthused about this year's March is the March for Science and on climate is reflecting back in my experience 50 years ago.

24:47 That although you might go to those Marsha Marsha Marsha's addition to your principles, which Toronto tree Chief whether it's truth in Arpin actions in our society or fairness and and all of those sorts of things but that experience at those March has made a difference. I mean did Rose if it changed the the argument in this country because so many people turned out to represent young people take their turns out to the voice their opposition somebody. I hope this year in the marches this year is the same thing will happen than that people will pay attention to this and and recognize that really science is really important for the nation and for the future of the world and although I was just one of many people individually really don't count. They would have noticed if I if I were not there I think collectively a coming together and express that stressing that kind of actions are powerful thing in

25:47 Democracy, it seems like that long-term perspective.

25:53 It's really important especially for somehow for us to try to convey that to our students because they haven't had that experience and I do I've had students and other early career people come to me and really Express.

26:13 Almost fear of certainly Express great concern as to whether they've chosen to go in the right career if science isn't going to be supported by this government if what they were inspired to do to get involved in the environmental Sciences are Earth and space Sciences because they felt that they were not only pursuing knowledge and Discovery, but perhaps we're acquiring tools that they could use to help contribute to society and they get very discouraged in the short-term by seeing that perhaps at the this very moment. There are certain segments of the society that don't appreciate that input. How could we help?

27:04 Without sounding like a bunch of old geezer saying wow when I was younger, how can we help them? See that longer-term perspective and to stick with it and that this. Too will pass and there will be another time when will even now but they'll be another time when their efforts are appreciated by a broader constituency of the effect of the nation in the world. That is difficult is you is you as you as you frame there. However, what I try to do even though it might come across as being the old geezer is to get them to understand the recent history and how things have changed in my lifetime in my career and and how I was a scientist took some charge over that career what I do I wasn't just I didn't have complete control over where I went and what I work, but I had some choices to make and and and and

28:05 I am some directions. I wanted to pursue and with some perseverance. We're successful this really rather than being fatalistic about it student should recognize that really their success.

28:21 If the most important ingredient of their success is them rather than what other decisions are made in priorities in that not all of them will be able to do science pursue pure research or working in in universities in a top-class universities, but that there are lots of other opportunities know we have a whole generation of changeovers, you know, when our own institution of people retiring to my age or or so and their new opportunities in opening in faculty positions in research institutes government agency. So there's lots of opportunities out there in this field and I think the other thing we're seeing is that some of the threats that you and I marched about although they had gone away. They haven't been materialized yet some of the severe budget cuts and that's because at least they're there some in this world in Congress who base

29:21 Sleep thinking that that's ill-advised for for the nation's future. So we have to stay engaged and we have to continue to voice why this is so important. And so and then we have to make some choices and commitments that actually we can contribute to the success of science.

29:41 Yeah, that really resonates with me and especially what you were saying about emphasizing and recognizing that are our students have opportunities for multiple career choices that were no longer looking primarily or narrowly at only careers in Academia that said I also kind of want to get back to another thing that that you were very instrumental in in implementing at our University. And I wonder if it might serve as a model for other universities in terms of the criteria used for evaluating tenure and promotion in that we look Beyond simply Publications and funding although those are very important but there are other criteria as well. Can you say a little bit about how that evolved and

30:41 Effective do you think that has been for our faculty and then course our faculty are role models for our students has that really in your view and you're 27 years as President of University of you seen a change in that regard.

30:58 Well our Institution

31:03 It's different in particularly important because as you know University of Maryland Center for environmental scientist and fun to just because we don't we don't produce graduate with the mean undergraduate students. It's a limited number of graduate students and we really are supported by our state because of the research we do and the utility of that research. So I saw it is incumbent on me to make sure that that culture about following through to the end in the application of of the of that prove that science is really critical, but I came into a situation where is part of the academic tradition, you know, you're you're you're viewed by peers as well internally and externally under quantifiable things like numbers of Publications and numbers of Publications in which you were the senior author the grant dollars that you brought in and in that in that situation not only application of of science, but also teaching is undervalued. So we

32:03 Wanted to change that. So at the time I was trying to figure out how to do this. There was a report that was published just a year or so before by the Carnegie Commission on higher education which which had which had a vision of a new idea of a professor's in this modern world in education. And so we adopted the the criteria of for faculty selection promotion evaluation and they ain't there for ingredients rather than the traditional model of research teaching Public Service. They are they are discovery which is different than research because it means new things outcome of research the integration of knowledge knowledge that you have a special deep knowledge of bringing that putting into a contact of integrating with the other fields of science to a to advance the whole field application.

33:03 Is the use of the science that we do for the betterment of society and of course teaching and so we now evaluate our faculty every year on the basis of those and of course when they're promoted and it's made a difference. It sent a message out to faculty that it's not only is it all right, but it's expected that you play a role in in communicating that science and helping people make the right decisions. But also when we come down to evaluate accounts and there have been situations where the evaluation committee's have been so the less enthusiastic in terms of their research volume, but the person's done an exceptional job in terms of application. I've also been instances where the research research has been quite good but it's very narrow and there's been no effort to to apply it that the outcome has been less successful. So I think it sent a message that we are looking for people who do well Road.

34:03 And didn't contribute to these areas some areas more than others depending upon the individual, but overall they should be making a contribution.

34:12 Do you think there's opportunities for 4 I have you have you discussed this with other university presidents provost's about this model. Is this something that you think we might see more broadly in the United States take some institutions have adopted it and in various ways. I think the inertia in this is the professor it people that live the Committees that the faculty Senate and so on don't like rule changes. And so I think there's there's inertia to prevent those currents of reforms in some some presidents might want to apply them but you know, they hit a stone wall. So I think it's really on us is if it has been as a profession of academics.

34:58 Hold on. I'm really glad that you took a chance on me. It's been a great honor to work with you for several years before you stepped down as our University president in your very distinguished career as an advocate for applying science to policy, especially in the Gulf of Mexico and the Chesapeake Bay. Is there any final reflection that about that Journey that you'd like to share on storycorps? Well, I think that might at this stage of my career. I'm still focusing on trying to close that golf. If you will not the Gulf of Mexico the Gulf of tween understanding and action and use in society so that those are the things that I'm really interested in continue to work on. So, thank you. It's nice nice to talk to you.