Stanford Rosenthal and Sandy Rosenthal

00:07 My name is Stanford Rosenthal. I'm 27 years old. Today is January 23rd, 2018. We are in the mid city library in New Orleans, Louisiana, and I'm here at speaking with my mom.

00:22 And I am Sandy Rosenthal. I am 60 years old. Today is January 23rd 2018. The location is Mid-City New Orleans and my relationship to my partner is I am his mother.

00:41 Okay. So Mom, what is your favorite memory of living in New Orleans? I have an absolute memory that is magical and it is Mother's Day either 2006 or 2007. It was when the city was still diet and not many people will live in Kia and all three of my children including you were here in New Orleans for Mother's Day and which is obviously in mid-may and on this particular Mother's Day. We all decided that we would walk the two blocks to the latter Memorial Library because they were holding a fundraiser and Kermit Ruffins was would be there and so together we walked over to the library which is a beautiful old building a home that was donated to the city many years ago, but it's still maintained its beauty even though it's a library now and we walked in and there was Kermit Ruffins playing the horn.

01:40 So close you could touch him and it was a small little cloud or not. A lot of people there and it was such a special night to have this amazing talent right here just two blocks from my house and then after awhile, and another reason it was special is because all three of my children with me that day and it was Mother's Day and we were at this amazing then you will then eventually my three children including you had enough and wanted to go home. I said fine. I'm going to stay a little while longer and and you can go and I stayed and I listen to Kermit Ruffins play. So close I could touch him and then I decided I'm going to walk home now and it was a rainy night. I open my umbrella. I stepped out into the Dark Knight still no street lights. So it must have been 2006 and I walked through the lawn down some stairs built into the ground and no stairs must have been there for 200 years and I'm walking down those

02:40 Old all steps how magical all by myself at night how magical it is beautiful venue after listening to Kermit Ruffins how magical is that? The company by my three children and I walked home by myself, and I thought we're

02:57 In the whole country. Can I have an experience like that? I don't think anywhere cuz I'm so glad you asked me that question.

03:05 Yeah, it's amazing that you mention two steps. I know exactly the steps you're talking about. It's it's basically a stoop and then it all of us also interesting cuz it's a hill which we don't have. So actually recently time ever the context. Yeah, when we are staying at the at the house Tommy and I just a couple months ago with y'all. We're walking our dog Boo, we walk to the library and I pointed the steps out to Tommy the street car wasn't running in 2006 when you were there, but when it is you can sit there and see and hear the street cars going by and I specifically told Tommy have magic like that list of sources really familiar you my steps included in your memory.

03:56 So will I have a question for you, you know speaking about those that crazy time when the levees broke. I'm sure you will call that I talked and talked about trying to help people understand that New Orleans wasn't flooded because of hurricane. It was flooded because the federal government made mistakes when they build the levees and six seven weeks after the levees broke you'd heard me talking about this enough and you and you offered to help totally on your own. I didn't ask you for help you offered to help me and you offered to build a website to help get the word out. And so I've been wondering for 13 years now. Why did you do that? I mean after all you had to work with your mother.

04:41 Is it I mean for me personally at that time as your first snow today, I'm very politically involved and I both nonprofits and the political sphere and at the time I remember

04:56 Odin 9th grade when when that happened to starting High School the year before that 8th grade. I saw Hotel Rwanda at the movie theater and they Artist movie about the terrible genocide that happened there and at the end of the movie to talk about Darfur Sudan which at the time and I believe still today is going through some of the things I went through and

05:23 That really motivated me. Just finding a seen that movie seeing how awful everything was and then hearing is still happening. I remember that was what kind of sparked my political involvement. I remember at school talking to friends about it. Trying to get done by t-shirts and stickers about the collar. So I think that when

05:40 So I don't have already at that age been very I've seen online advocacy outside sign petition and I knew what you was out there and what you could do. And of course is I've always been interested in technology. So I think seeing you have these I remember specifically you had these chain emails cuz I was a thing then who you said add your name of the bomb this email and forward it to everyone, you know, and then eventually send this email to come back to you and then you have to remove the duplicates and you know what the hell didn't get back to you. So I guess I have seen in the sort of save Darfur movement while boy online tools can do to bring people together across the world and I was worried that I saw what you're doing and it just made sense to connect those two. So I remember the very first thing we did was set up an online petition. This was before

06:28 I mean Facebook was still restricted at the time to get to college students YouTube just lost that year. There wasn't really petition sites like changed out of work. So we made a a custom petition and that's the first generation was really really just taking your your chain email and creating a petition out of it. So I know how much I answered your question, but that's my memory of how it started really didn't know what motivated you to do this. I guess I took it for granted and I'm so it just goes to show you that no use later. I'm going to do that. That's pretty remarkable. I knew you had the skills. I totally trusted you. In fact, not a day has gone by that I had this I can't point to something in my life. I do it because you told me to, you told me to start using Google Calendar use told me to start to join that it started Gmail account and all you had to do with a mom. You should do this and I'll go ok, and and and I've been

07:28 Doing it ever since and I'm now I'm glad I did because you obviously had a lot of good ideas speaking of which on the very first rally that we launched. I was worried that nobody would come and you told me don't worry because I'm President Obama his first rally. Nobody came became president. So so don't worry about one little failure and we did get a lot of people at first rally which was launched kickoff rally for levees.org, which of course was about two months later two months after you said your mom. I'm going to help you you offered to help me right around Halloween and I'll kickoff rally with mid-January. That was the one at the core on the Levee 20 second.

08:10 So I think now it's time for you to ask me a question.

08:15 Sure.

08:17 Describe the unique ways in which your work connects you to your community.

08:22 That is why I'm so glad you asked everybody has a silver lining if you talk to any person who went through the flood and the loss and the devastation in the heartache. And if you ask them did something good come of this.

08:41 Most of them do it is difficult to get through that without some sort of silver lining in my case. My silver lining was I got to meet people that I never ever would have met and I and when I say meet I don't mean just meat and never see you again. I mean meat and would become friends and would do things together and I would go to their house and they would come to mind. I've met people in the holy cross the lower 9th Ward Little Woods New Orleans East araby Chalmette Lake Vista Lake View on the eastbound all of you that you spank because that's what's up stuff at all the devastation for most of the devastation and I never would have met these people and if people are close to me now and then I'm a richer Fuller happy a person because of these relationships that I've built and will keep for the rest of my life. So so that's that's a way that you know to answer your question. That is a way that

09:41 Felt more connected to other communities because of my work.

09:53 Yeah, I'll give you an example. There's the the the

10:01 The Mirabeau Gardens neighborhood of Gentilly is one example among somatic but I met I was trying to figure out a way to build a levee Bike Tour and I was visiting the Lemon Avenue canal and and a woman drove by in a car and waved to us as though she knew us and I waved back and she stopped, and she said hello on her name is Miss Carmen Owens, and she said I weaponize you I've seen you I've seen your work and I've introduced myself. This is one of the great things about having unmistakable accent and unmistakable hair is it when people see me they know who I am some kind of a lucky thing for me and we struck up a friendship and ever since then we've ever Chief, I'm out at the London Avenue canal and say hello to her. I started attending neighborhood meetings in her neighborhood because I was interested in getting things done in her neighborhood. Of course, this is around the year 20.

11:02 This is my New Year 2011. So that's more than 5 years ago. And we're good friends today. I should came to my birthday party recently and I was really went to her daughter's birthday party and with friends now and this is I can give you many many more examples. But again, these are just acquaintances that I might recognize on the street. These are people who are now a part of my life.

11:24 That's very cool.

11:26 So Stanford ask a college you move the way to San Francisco, you move to San Francisco and for 4 years who live there and different places in San Francisco. But then you move back to New Orleans. So I have never heard the real story on why at least I don't think I know the story and why did you decide to come back to New Orleans?

11:51 The short answer I usually give people is that San Francisco is really expensive, but I got that.

12:02 Coming back to New Orleans. Just didn't really have a time frame and I think it came sooner than I expected and I do think I think the reason it's valid for me to say that cost of living was

12:15 A reason is that you know, I think that if it is cheap to live in San Francisco, I probably would have gone about my ways there for much longer before reconsidering and I think just looking at the mount that we're paying in rent and looking at where they could go in New Orleans. I think I definitely accelerated it by can talk about I guess more or two things. So I always thought I would come I always knew I would come back to New Orleans at some point and then you know in terms of the timing light then so I answered the timing but it's alright means really big question.

12:55 Still processing data processing it. There's definitely never one of my favorite things about New Orleans because I think that's what I moved and I can contrast that contrast that to the Bay Area in. The number one thing is the to sort of get it done attitude of for example in my neighborhood. There's being the the marinate area there's two empty lots that are actually owned by the Housing Authority of New Orleans witch and they've done nothing with them. I'm not exactly sure why I think that's a different conversation, but they're vacant Lots owned by the city and they both become part of my life. Now one is a neighbor who I know now converted this lot into a dog park completely unofficial he put some wooden pallets up at the insurance. You can close it behind you and let your dog off the leash that would never happen in the Bay Area there would be

13:55 You know, you have to have a hundred committee meetings and get all these permits and hear a neighbor just like puts a piece of wood at the entrance and got a dog park. Now. It's like that time that you were taking pictures of their granddaughter in the park and someone called the police. My granddaughter is part of an advertisement and someone called the police. So I think that answers our question what happened you pictures of babies to do everything and it's positive if your Mobility impaired in San Francisco every single entrance every single sidewalk as a wrap and everything's ada-compliant, but Stanford were talking about is in San Francisco. My granddaughter was part of a photo shoot for a young woman trying to start a business and they be closed and there we were it was 7

14:55 The morning. High noon on Sunday 7 in the morning taking photographs of babies young women young man will all happy and smiling having a wonderful time. Someone call the police the police showed up and told us we had to stop or we're going to hold onto court that I know. I wanted to elaborate that this is a recent story and this is what just happened in the city of San Francisco's. I know there are positive things to sort of the fact that there are lots of rules and regulations of people following the bay area. But I love that New Orleans. We don't have that allows things like this dog park that would otherwise be an empty lot is now a dog park. Can I go there every day now and then the other one is cluett Gardens in the Bywater, which is also an empty lot Neighbors start attending to it and put in plants that for the murals that you can put in Lighting in trash cans and they ended up working on a deal with housing authority to rent it for something like a dollar a year and

15:50 I think that really

15:53 You know that has its pros and cons. We also like don't really have sidewalks in the city because they're kinda expected to literally make your own path. But that's also the beautiful beautiful thing is that if you see something you want to prove you can just kind of do it and sometimes telling my question to you. But as long as you connect with that person like you have with your work and make those connections, then you're not really going to run in a troubled in whatever it is that you want to do as long as people benefit from it. And I think that's a big reason to move back here. And absolutely one thing I love and I know it's hard to know hindsight 20/20. Is it something I love now that I'm back here. I don't know if it's the reason I moved here but everyone ever and I knew in the Bay Area is very impressive that they would either work at a big tech company or have their own Tech startup and you know, but here

16:50 A lot of my friends might have their own food truck business or their own, you know little boutique store or whatever it is. And then a lot of ways are a lot more scary and impressive you're not sitting by a new keyboard you're making real Capital Investments, you're investing your weekend nights and you know, people are really putting their heart and soul into their businesses and I feel like to a level that

17:16 I was a little concerned coming here that you know, the reason I went to the Bay Area was the entrepreneurship and the fast-paced and all that and you know New Orleans, to The Big Easy as this mentality of kind of slowness, but not really it just different, you know, like someone running a food truck. That's not slow. It might not change the world overnight Mark Zuckerberg style, but they're putting a lot of hours a lot of capital A lot of sweat a lot of social capital and supply and demand and so I think that's just being around. You know, I can I can find people to talk to about tech but being here there's just so much more versions of Entrepreneurship and creativity that I I see in the people I need everyday

18:02 It is less uniformity or no, no uniformity. I mean here here in New Orleans and everyone. I meet of noticing no one has just one job here. They have like six jobs. And I think that's amazing how they they do a little bit are at they do a little bit of bartending. They do a little bit of volunteering everyone is doing so many things rather than just kind of being touched down in one thing. Do you feel having lived in California San Francisco area for 4 years you feel that there was more volunteerism in New Orleans and and then in, California

18:39 It might be the people I'm surrounding myself around for sure, especially living next to an urban farm and meeting most the people. I've met have been volunteers at that urban farm and I see them pretty much in my backyard so could be selection bias. But yes, yes is the answer. I don't know if that's real people I choose to surround myself with in San Francisco. I surrounded myself with people. I met usually through work or through college and here it's people I literally see out of vents. I'm going to a protest and volunteer events and even Burning Man related events.

19:20 Since we're on the subject of moving back to New Orleans, perhaps we could take it a step further and and I'd love to know why did you and your partner decide to live in the st. Roch neighborhood and there's lots of neighborhoods in San Francisco that does a lot of neighborhoods in New Orleans. Why did you choose scentlok? So there's generally why did we choose Jose down the river and by that, I mean marinated st. Roch and buy water in St. Claude sit down river. What is something that I still don't really understand how it's possible that an area of a bunch of one story houses feel so dense, you could go into so many cities that have ten-story buildings and you don't see people in the street. There just doesn't seem to be much going on yet marigny Bywater st. Roch area. There's always people on the street. You got people like mr. Okra gun by selling a produce on the street.

20:19 Yeah, it's this quaint, you know neighborhood with a bunch of one story houses and plenty of blighted and abandoned properties in between. So it's I think that's what really amazes me about that. Neighborhood is just how Lively it is for such a

20:34 Not really that Urban of an area in my mind. I'm walking down aisle Spain Street where you live and and and I can see in my mind's eye. They're just about every block. You see somebody actually walking on the stupid. Is that the Saudis thing you mean when you said these people out and even if they're not on the street just walking by the houses. They've got their big front windows open in there, you know, you can hear their band practice is going on it just it feels like there's always people there and you know that they're part of their surroundings.

21:13 I don't want to like say negative things are other parts of the city and other parts of the city are like that but I do feel compared to some other parts of the city where you got houses with big front yard, and they're farther apart than ask you something that the house is a home in my neighborhood up and I'm not going to say who it is but in my neighborhood and I wanted to know the name of her next-door neighbor and instead they live a few blocks from me. So it's reasonable for me not to know the name of the next door neighbor and she says well, I've never met her and they lived next door to each other for three years. I've never met each other now, can you envision something like that happening and in your neighborhood? No, I mean I literally next door and the driveway is right next to each other come in and out everyday. So I mean, I think generally New Orleans that's that's real that people want to know each other especially down river.

22:13 Because the proximity how close is a house? So I feel like if you want to have to it's like back to my neighbor and I because our Alleyways are smaller and I were talking about taking down the fence between our properties and I'm just out of practicality. I can't get my bike around the side of the house and he'd like more space to so I know each other and our area I was very surprised when I heard that and then I guess Saint rocke specifically you don't answer that part 2.

22:48 I mean it could have been a movie yet. I think I'd be just happy in the Bywater. I think Saint rocke was just where we found kind of the perfect house within our price range. We like the name immediate neighborhood. We like the the urban farm behind the house. We like the proximity to sort of the entertainment area of St. Claude, which I've been trying lately actually enjoy more, you know, like just go out for like one beer on a weeknight to see the the band playing at been trying to do that a lot more because sometimes it's easy to forget that you have these amazing offense playing at the library took advantage of that. Sometimes it's easy to forget how lucky you are to have those kind of my New Year's resolution is to take advantage of all the great entertainment in our area. I think that's a great New Year's resolution because it's easy to think what I'll go tomorrow or next week.

23:43 Speaking on that is a totally it's popped into my head. But we had a few I'm sure you remember my friend Stuart who had a boat and he will always welcome to go on Wednesdays to go with him. A boat race and every week. We said next week next week next week until the levees broke and the city flooded and the boat ended up at the bottom of the lake and he and Uncle Stewart never had a boat again. So that's another of death another post Levee breach thing to keep in mind don't keep pushing things off. That might not always be there. Did I do have another question for Me Maybe?

24:27 People listening to you who are not from New Orleans. I would love for you to describe what, traffic sounds like what what sounds like, okay.

24:36 Okay, I think Stanford might be better than me though. No, I'm not really into music much.

24:47 Okay, so well, traffic and is a extremely well-known Jazz Trumpeter in the City of New Orleans. He's revealed his loved he's got a great personality but giving he donates of time very often and in his music is very special Especial Styles playing but normal circumstances you pay quite a bit of money and Tommy have to stay up very late at 2 to hear Kermit laughing but I was so lucky to hear him at 6 in the evening just one block from my house and is a very special sound is a unique sound at usually pay connoisseurs of Music which I am not when they hear him playing they know it's him. And so and so and that's just one more way that that particular night with magical.

25:36 What does it mean to have mr. Okra walking up and down?

25:41 Send mr. Okra, he's sort of a celebrity a local celebrity. He drives around in this pickup truck that's painted and beautiful amazing colors in these cells produce out the back of his truck and weights most famous for his that he has a megaphone kind of like a police officer out on their car, but he's singing the menu for the day what courtesy has and I think sometimes that's how much it cost but in a very sing song way and I mean, I know how old is today in his 80s probably and he still doing it he has helpers with them, but he's still the one on the megaphone and it said just the salad it's it's it's like hearing the the streetcars are the steamships or what I just said his voice is a sound of New Orleans.

26:30 What a beautiful image now. I want to hit him. But the wind is what kind of time of day does he come around? I wish I knew whatever. I feel like I don't have cash or a bag or whatever so you could be my neighbor one of my neighbors actually works with him and I said bring him by her house with I will buy some produce but set time of day that he'll come by day of the week.

27:04 Okay, so

27:10 This is a big life question. I feel like but how has your life been different than what you'd imagined nothing about. My life is what I imagined at this point. I mean, other than that, I still have three children. Nothing is how I'd imagined it and that we know before the levees broke. I've earned my dues I've had was now working part time and marketing. I could spend a lot of time playing tennis. I I I wasn't politically active and that I wasn't an activist in and causes other than giving a little money. I had always been an environmentalist and I gave quite a bit of money away for those cause with the other than that, I wasn't active in anyway, and then the levees broke and I turned into something else completely. I don't even recognize myself anymore in that. I'll take on any cause not only with not only with conviction, but without else I'll sell my whole self into

28:10 I'll do my time and do it. You know, I'll contribute a little money if necessary. I'll stand up and I'll go to I'll Stand Up publicly and say things and if anyone has a problem with it, I don't care if they're if I hear that there's a a March for something. I'm there right up front. I don't care where it is. And I don't hesitate. I never would have done any of those things, you know before the levees broke and it and it ain't me. It wasn't watching a movie or book for me. It took a really major catastrophe which again is is I don't wish catastrophes than anyone but in my case of catastrophe help me find a person in me that but I didn't know if they are.

28:49 Could talk through that moment a little bit like from from the catastrophe to that first decision to to take action in some way. There's a scene of me discussing this incident on C-Span that I recently saw. I just a few days ago, but somebody asked me on on National Television on C-Span. Why did I even asked me? Why did I start this work with doing the work of levees.org? And Anna? I I started cheering up and and I said well because there's nobody I know that didn't suffer. I mean some people lost a home some people lost a business some people lost friends either either to to death by drowning or they moved away which is also has its has its all out when your best friend moves away to another town and in my case somebody actually no ground in the flooding and on C-Span.

29:49 The cry and and the the woman interviewing me said that's okay. You can take a moment and threw it to yours. I said, I think I just answered your question.

30:02 And I thought just be enough to answer it again today. My life has been changed because of the shock and no I'm not and the trauma and that and the devastation and there's some people have been 13 years and I promised you a huge number of people have not yet healed.

30:20 And that's how my life is different and that's why my life is different.

30:25 Something I think ties together from I was talking about earlier that I can't figure out how to Loop an was when

30:36 When I seen that work with save Darfur after learning about Rwanda.

30:42 You always heard, you know, x hundred thousand or x million people killed and then X millions of people displaced and that second part. This place didn't really have any meeting. I mean you going to talk to people killed it's hard to get to hat that's hard to have meaning to but like we talked about this place was that mean like we had to move their displace very violently intent when the levees broke people were displaced very violently and to this day just that that were displaced mean so much where they were talking about disasters or war or gentrification. I think they like

31:23 I think very few Americans or even westerners can can understand what that word means play tonight and you hear all the time and it's really easy to dismiss the word but I think that Loops, I think I connected the work I'd started.

31:41 Focusing on around Africa and then Katrina happened and very directly felt my own displacement. Not nearly as a violin has some of his strength in Africa and that made it even more meaningful like well, I'm just I had to go to a new school and I still have actually to my closest friends with me. I was looking in that and we had a home and head and her dog and and we had a lot still and. But I got to experience with displacement mint and still it was traumatic lines were experiencing much more track displacement as well. So to answer the initial question of why I want to hold a pot.

32:27 And that people are already it's not like everything was good and dandy in this happen. Like there's already has always pain in any community in a New Orleans. There's a lot of poverty in a lot of pain and I knew people still recovering from other death of family members when Katrina hit so

32:44 Yeah, I just did put a lot of things in perspective. So I don't remember exactly what I was thinking when I initially wanted stuff that website levees.org, but definitely changed our perspective of you know, we care about people already and cared about things happening in the world, but it added so much weight to certain words that we hadn't really considered before.

33:12 Curious about something is any a you describe this event and like how kind of alter the trajectory of your life in in a fashion. That seems like a fairy transform wondering like what was your perspective on that? Did you did you observe this transition in your mother? And if so, like, what is UC and how does it make you feel the transition?

33:40 Stanford youth the chisme says mom you enjoy this fine. But when he said enjoy it he was talking about getting in front of Television cameras and doing radio interviews. This is Mom you you I think you enjoy this. So he he he saw me changing good at something work. I had never done before that's just one example of the other thing is hard for me to think about it because at this point most of my life

34:01 I miss the life. I can remember anyway, infinite, only 15 years old. So I mean 15 years of my life before Katrina 12 after and I've been much more cautious in the the ladder 12 so hard for me to remember your mother before your 15 and after 15 is going to be very different as well. So I think it's hard to for me to have any perspective of there.

34:30 I think I'm going to point out right now that major events that this was the worst civil engineering disasters in the history of the United States. A lot of people in this country are still processing what happened to them. And so that's a very reasonable question to know. How was your mother different but Stanford was processing many things at this time. He has his entire school class. We do with the pot example Stanford when you got back to school how many of your classmates didn't come back what percentage of your class was unable to come back? Yeah, we went from I think about a hundred twenty five people in our class to about 8525 children with 25 different reasons. I'm not good at math.

35:30 It wasn't even the same. It wasn't even the same question. You know, how did it change SS is good with dealing at your deal. You got up every day and your deal with what we put in front of you and you don't try not to think about the past and and move forward it but it was a traumatic event and that's what that's the reason in addition to education that the the work that Stanford and I began together and Stanford. I know I've said this almost every day, but I couldn't have started levees.org without you there would have been no levees.org without Stanford Stanford. I worked with me for four years and then then when he went to college he Stanford you look me in the eye and said mom I've been doing this before years. I'm ready to move on and I said well, thank you son, and and you did and you helped me here and there when I needed help and you giving me some unsolicited help to which I always took and was grateful for.

36:30 But I'm in many ways were all still processing but hopefully many of us can hold on to those those Silver Linings in those ways that were better with your people and and try to enrich others with what we would with what's happened to us.

36:49 Never anything else in our final minutes. He wanted to discuss Stanford. You were the first person I thought of when I was I was given this initial opportunity to have this interview today. You were my first choice and I was so worried that you would say no and so I use every every bit of manipulation skill I own or not that so much as you know reaching out skill that I own it said please say, yes, please say yes, and I'm very grateful that you did. Thank you for being here to talk to me today.

37:25 Well, that's the reason Stanford was my first choice is is because again, I I could not that they would literally be no levees.org of it when I was Stanford when I started levees.org and I did start it I ate it was my idea to to get the word out what really happened it and it began with me and I don't question that but how was I going to do that? I only had an email and that's it and my voice and my and I very odd sounding voice I might at that time and it was Stanford to cycle mom. I can help I can do a website and and in addition Stanford also designed the logo and he helped me come up with the name of the organization and then you are well and you help me with all these things but it would have been impossible without him because that the epicenter for this was greater New Orleans and we were in Lafayette two and a half hours away hours. So to build a Grassroots gloop you on your way off the

38:25 Is very difficult and we did it using online features at the end of Natchez online features, but cutting-edge online features and it's going to be extremely proud of I know I'm proud of it. I hope you are too and that's why you were my first choice.

38:45 Just wet the grass roots from afar it it's I hadn't really thought of it in that way before because I think we were cutting edge in that there such a necessity for people to connect online because there was no other way to connect. I mean a lot of phones aren't even working. So everyone found each other online who was in New Orleans and I think there wasn't as I said Facebook actually he wasn't

39:11 I can't open to the public that year. So I believe in the post office wasn't going for months at the postal delivery service. So I remember even my high school class. So creating like email the service and all this stuff and like people it's easy to forget that people didn't communicate that way and 2005. We didn't have Facebook groups and you know everything else.

39:36 So yeah, they're the tools weren't really out there and not the clothes we have today.

39:44 But that we did it and we obviously did it because and I'm getting ready to finish the 12 chapter book on this subject.

39:53 I'm looking forward to it. So thank you again for the food we have for saying yes. Thank you again.