Frank Zeidler and Michael Gordon

00:01 Okay, my name is Michael Gordon. I'm 64. This is June 6th, 2005. Where in Milwaukee Wisconsin and I have the pleasure an interview Frank zeidler today Mr. Sightler.

00:17 Yeah, my name is Frank Paul zeidler, and I'm 92 and almost three-quarters of a year old toward 93.

00:28 My residence is 2921 North 2nd Street in Milwaukee. I happen to be married and my wife is still living. Her name is Agnes, and we have six children.

00:47 Five of them daughters and one of my mail

00:52 The daughter of the youngest daughter is the mayor of Williamsburg, Virginia. The other daughters are mostly and work of various types. So the library working as library and soar medical workers in the sun teaches mathematics at Custer High School in Milwaukee. Thank you.

01:20 Well, mr. Zeitler, you were mayor of Milwaukee from 1948 to 1960. Yes, you were also a socialist and you still are so that was what did it mean just make the often times. I am the last mayor or socialist mayor we tried that says the latest that's a hopeful sign. But what did it mean to be a socialist mayor?

01:49 Well, it's meant that certain amount of hostility from the business community in the mayor in 1956. When I ride from here to fourth time. I only had two businessmen that supported my campaign curiously enough. I got elected with expenditure of about $24,000 today a campaign like that runs into the millions. What is the business communities? So opposed to you? I mean, what did you try to do? How did you try to bring socialism to your work as mayor?

02:34 Well, the business Community was opposed simply on the grounds of socialism socialism in the minds of many people had several different images. What is the image of a spiky bearded European holding a lighted bomb in his hand that comes from me and our revolution of 1886 in Chicago Haymarket resolution. The other one was Stalin has and the Socialist Democratic Socialist movement, which is why we call ourselves was unable to overcome the image that Stalin created that what he had and what Lennon has was a form of Socialism.

03:29 All right, we could never portray the fact that we were like the German social Democrats that was very difficult to do the same time. But we did there wasn't much that you could socialize anymore. You couldn't invite socialize the power plant, but that would be very difficult to do because of our past was politically powerful, but we did have public housing. We had public water works with Public Schools. We worked hard for public transportation for playgrounds and for expanding the size of the city and the business Community was not shaking down under any graft by anybody of the Socialist movement.

04:24 So for that reason you might have thought that the business Community would have breathed easily. Yeah, the business Community didn't like the idea that we were closely affiliated with organized labor and we were close to Hatfield. PA was organized labor up and tell him Franklin Roosevelt got the Wagner labor relations act through and that's ended. Ended but it's sort of cut off social set track shipping that has had for labor labor then became democratic.

05:09 And when I first went into office of Mayor there were many there were several business agents that were of unions that were socialists. I left most of them are business agents and not so sure that disappointing to you. Well, it was inevitable. I thought the Roosevelt appeal was just very very powerful Franklin Roosevelt picked up. A lot of Norman Thomas's Oceanside is he didn't take him completely up but he took enough of them to head off the growing socialist movement.

05:56 Number of socialists left the Socialist Party Movement the Democratic party Dan home among them 4041 under the influence of Roosevelt left Socialist. Party went back went first into the Progressive Party of Wisconsin. And from there. They went to the Democratic party. Was that disappointing to you that they left or was that understandable understandable?

06:30 What's a tough being a socialist mayor in the 1950s in during McCarthyism you feeling personality as a matter of fact, that's when she was at least problems. I had Joe McCarthy never attacked. Anybody in Wisconsin is a matter of fact, I know him quite well smoke them couldn't understand why anybody took him seriously and maybe that's the big weakness of the Socialist Party of the 1950s that we didn't think anybody was taking that McCarthy sure. He was quite a show man and a certain amount of tricks in them at all the time. Why do you said was your soul? I don't know buddy with the influence. I understand some Bishop for the other you picked up the communist.

07:30 And there was Communist penetration into the United States particularly in some of the labor movement. So that's gave substrates to what you were doing and some kindness active in labor here as well. Yeah. Yeah.

07:50 Linda there was a communist influence in Wisconsin and split with the AF of L picked up a lot of organizers and some of them were socialists and somewhere comment in the comment took primarily took their orders not so much from John Lewis, but from Russia from the Soviet Union.

08:23 Misters either can you recall a specific interaction you had with McCarthy or a memorable experience that you had with Mr. McCarthy?

08:32 A memorable experience the most memorable experience. I have a Joe McCarthy you and I were invited by Frank Kirkpatrick a builder who started out at Ultra radical. Remember to John Republic became ultra-conservative, but for some reason bright car battery took a liking to her liking to me and he was building a house that he called his bottle of Z home named after me because I suggested no basement in expandable attic so that the family could have two bedrooms on the first floor expand for children on the attic and then when they're older retired Retreats into bedroom floor, so he had this in the southwest part of Milwaukee and by that Joe McCarthy along there, too.

09:33 When I was there there was a man who is engaged in finishing office hours as Sweat Equity. He had a bottle of beer in his hand and McCarthy looked at him quickly. And you said you got a fly on that beer. He took the bottle away from them and then you drank the beer and he gave it back.

09:57 That this drama. Everything about Joe McCarthy. Joe McCarthy.

10:03 Well, what was so appealing to you about socialism even a socialist most of your adult life. What's the appeal of consisted of two things one? They were anti-war the influence of the first world war was tremendous and anti-war feeling. It was a thing that motivated Norman Thomas the killing us 50 million people in that war was a big factor with a socialist organization of Labor and the difficulties that labor had from the 1860s and 1870s in the era of early industrial is a minute later industrialism. So the Socialist movement had those two roads the idea behind this was operated together.

11:04 It would be towards and they would have better living. There was a another aspect of socialism that was hidden there and that do us an interest in cooperatives.

11:20 Socialism soften time sawed-off again have a socialist society least we can help organize cooperatives and the net movement the Co-operative movement was strong in the 30s.

11:37 Remember how you first got interested in socialism. I got interested in so she wasn't because of the first world war and I read about it in a branch library in Milwaukee called the Clybourne Street Library witches on North 35th Street and old abandoned concrete movie house. There are read the writings of Norman Thomas Kirby page devere Allen and others who wrote about the horrible Slaughter of the first world war and how it shouldn't have happened.

12:17 And That's Amore Lech brought me into the movement. I ran into a railroad worker names.

12:24 Baird was a machinist and the Milwaukee Road shops. I lived in the Merrill Park area of Milwaukee forever lot of people work for the Milwaukee Railroad in Orangeburg. What's a Methodist and the Socialist views with the social gospel and threw him I came in the Socialist movement.

12:51 What why you're taking a drink of water? Let me ask you.

12:57 About family your family your father and mother other family that my father was not a socialist he would he didn't have any political party in my mother had absolutely no particular interest my older brother's I had two of them my roller brother Carl was conservative.

13:21 He wasn't a republican you didn't belong to any party, but he generally tended to be acceptable to the business community and my brother Clem or later on became the head of us Theological Seminary in Minneapolis. And st. Paul was very much of a Republican.

13:46 You think of yourself as being committed to socialism now as you were in the earlier days has that commitment changed at all the midget to the idea human call operation.

13:56 Question is how much of a socialization can can you have?

14:03 Which is that still a very difficult question simply because of human nature being what it is.

14:13 On a daily kind of basis. I was still a member of the Socialist Party and I've been very active at nothing until my ailments getting the best of me.

14:24 And also on a daily basis, what does it mean to live a lot your life as a socialist on a daily basis? How does it influence the decisions that you make doesn't mean much. It means you're frustrated with the small merchants not looked at Walmart or anything like that. Then you tend to favor of interest in issues of the labor movement and for instance like the minimum wage and protection in the workplace and preservation of Labor history things like that.

15:09 What does an interesting thing to see whether or not socialists of can be applied to saving the environment? We think it can also what's the what's the connection their consumption of energy is in the future.

15:37 Question that the Socialist have not dealt with in that's brand-new is the biological question life to the biology in the Socialist movement has not addressed that movement that problem. That's a big one. I used to teach courses on technology science.

16:07 Values of society for the University of Wisconsin and University Wisconsin Center in Menasha and elsewhere and that's still is interested by

16:22 So you're suggesting that the role of socialism and helping to address some environmental problems would be that you would need some government to the biological problem. So have you dress sexy is still more or less active talk as if there's a this is age of large industrialization where a lots of people are working in a factory where the Machinery is run by leather ropes running pipes anymore.

16:58 Why am why do you think there was in the greater appeal for socialism the United States? We have 35 million people in poverty and that they seem to embrace A system that doesn't provide them untied levelers.

17:24 In other words see very great spread between top income people income people needs to be reduced to audio reduce that way by taxation then and redistributing of they and comfort.

17:43 That's not very popular because socialist do not control the media and they're not very influential in shaping to Media.

17:55 The ideas, where is there socialism? Well closest examples you got are Western Europe.

18:07 German Socialist Party German social Democrats Sweden social Democrats British Labour party American Socialist Party has viewpoints

18:24 When you talk to kids young people these days. I know that you've talked to but you've gone to school. So I need to talk to him about socialism that much do that's almost almost Unknown Subject the control of the education of the uses of public schools and private Grosse Ile Schools. Talk about that.

19:02 When you talk to young people yourself, so

19:05 What do they want to know about in terms of socialism?

19:10 Well, they want to know what it is. There's almost no knowledge of what socialism is it what it stands for what socialist movement says that's very difficult people that are in the Socialist Party now or in their thirties forties and fifties and not necessarily young people.

19:34 Young people are motivated by I don't know.

19:39 Rock and roll form of entertainment

19:47 What do you think it would take for more people to turn to socialism now?

19:55 Besides energy from people like you made some kind of Crisis or Y Pega Crisis crisis or military crisis.

20:15 That is a fear of bunks house listed and specially they policies of the current president current Secretary of Defense the card State Department. I think they're entirely too pugnacious and

20:38 They're not seeking International cooperation, which is a high interest among socialist now.

20:51 What do you think of the United States today aside from the fact that we seem to be much more militaristic Society from your point of view. We think of Americans and the United States. Well, I'm concerned about where the United States has got to go. I'm concerned that made enemies of the world and they got a long ways to go back now through with back those friendships that they have Shattered by going to load and I am very much concerned about that now.

21:27 That's one of the reasons why working for United Nations was president of United Nations Association for a long. Of time. I just recently quit the job and I've been a president of a community council for 45 years in my neighborhood.

21:51 The big issue there was a race and is it still? Yeah.

22:00 I talked a little bit about your neighbors in that regard. You've seen that neighborhood changed a lot over the other day.

22:10 Polish some Irish probably 95% African American

22:18 The word of the African American population comes from I don't know but some of it comes from the Deep South some of it comes from the northern southern states, but the

22:33 It's it's a population with we would not have any major what I would major trouble and some break-ins but beyond that nothing, I know that when you were mayor that was a big concern of yours that and that is all that when I was there. They are the conservatives wanted to beat me cuz I meant parting the blacks there was a hard to deal with it. I never did successfully deal with that.

23:05 But you were also concerned about the way in which the city was treating African-American that I used to have an idea where you're coming from or why you're coming here. But once you're here, are you got the same rights as everybody else and you have the same responsibilities?

23:31 So that was my policy particularly from 52 to 60.

23:37 Yes that you had a commission as I remember to look into process of the inner city.

23:47 I like kind of get back a little bit to question about socialism that we were talking about before is anything ever shaking your faith and socialism?

24:00 Shake your faith how so question is whether human babies.

24:09 Are I was such a nature that they could that they can be cooperative and socialist you get to the point of you that what you're seeing is individual competition that may be built in the human genes and I suppose that's the big issue with in the long run. It's the weather human genes are such that would permit social cooperation and another

24:45 Big problem with socialism is is the tendency of people to become tribalist.

24:54 And that still goes on in particular in Milwaukee group of people say from Germany or Poland or from Norway are from Mexico to a foreman cluster and their populations and their ideals and concepts are formed within those confines of those groups. And there's a lot of that here.

25:34 One group addresses at That's The International Institute other groups are try address again only from the point of view of the African-American community on the grounds that the white people are essentially and incorrigible Lee racist.

25:54 Do you think white people are incorrigible assist?

26:02 Getting back to this business about anything ever shaking your faith over the years misses in some ways, even though you're active with other social social is being shaken, but my horizons house luxury other words got to think of something Beyond socialist.

26:25 What do you mean by that thinks up? What do you do about the genetic development? I see persons that possibility that forming ideals Concepts really are functions of the genes that formed the brain and that that's that's the biological Revolution. That's a profound Revolution.

26:52 It definitely has its judge nature. Say nature makes all of us Fierce competitors that question is whether or not you can overcome that.

27:05 Is that something you think a lot about these days scherff?

27:09 What else to think about what it what things preoccupy you when you're thinking about things these days? Well, another thing that is preoccupied with not preoccupied with the spread of nuclear weapons. I saw a nuclear bomb explode in April 1952 and in all that changes your whole life when you see that happen that the

27:39 I wish next standing next to a New York Times Reporter. I think his name was Lawrence. Last name. He said to me when you see that a bomb explode. He says that's a spiritual experience. I said, how what do you mean by that? He said I was on the drop in the plane behind the drop playing at Nagasaki One Moment. I Saw said he's a next moment. It was gone.

28:11 And since that time I've been quite interested in trying to curtail the spread of nuclear weapons, but it's very very hard to do. We and the Russians he's got about three thousand of them on high alert and many thousands in reserve.

28:36 So seeing that bomb, where was that incident? Where did you see this explosion the nuclear explosion? What would he just see the bomb explode a nuclear bomb? Where did I see it that where was it was in Yucca Flats, Nevada 80 miles Northwest of Las Vegas

28:58 And I know it was one of the first civilian invited to watch the explosion told 50% bigger than the bombs dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima other words, maybe thirty thousand ton high explosive 600,000 endlessly.

29:30 And excuse me. Go ahead. Then that the whole world is threatened by that.

29:38 As mayor you were very much interested in civil defense vs. Did I happen after you saw that explosion or was that before? I was in Ogden civil defense before the explosion just from reading a paper. So what was happening to the cities, we did develop a very elaborate civil defense evacuation system are being seen no other way out, but now even that wouldn't work because of bombs are so big that one place. I think in 1989 in Scientific American there was an article saying that any city that has the air tankers Squadron would be worth $0.15 one of them with Wipeout, southeastern, Wisconsin.

30:36 Welcome back to that nuclear explosion and a minute to question two quick questions about that the bomb explosion did seeing that reaffirm your opposition to war or take you in another Direction. You said it changed your life. How did it seem that change your life?

31:00 And you say go ahead and that was that.

31:06 That dress while I'm at.

31:08 Stay with me when I was in the office of Mayor and still with me now.

31:17 But I realize there's not much I can do about it to think of more Americans saw one of the one of these explosions and first-hand that would change the way we think about nuclear war.

31:35 I think it would the guards they got enough evidence of it to television and videos and everything else to see this explorer was the first

31:53 Hydrogen bomb nuclear bomb and a we talked myself to go there. I saw Adam bomb explosion and now he's a new super nuclear bombs. I couldn't get there was much much bigger.

32:19 Where is just a couple of?

32:23 Questions, which asked you to kind of reflect a little more about your life. I'm I'm curious to know if your life turned out to be the same or different than what you imagined. It might be when you were younger. Different mostly due to illness.

32:39 Got good doctors in April along my life.

32:43 I got the heart surgery in 1996. That's kept me going for a while. But now it's beginning to run house tonight. I'm thinking also about earlier though. When when you were I mean when you were younger may be the better way to put it is what did you want to do when you grew up when you were to have a good idea what I want to do. I want to be a physicist.

33:07 But they went to Marquette University got the ill and I never completed it.

33:15 But I was my interest in high school in freshman year in the University of physicist. Yeah, I realize now I would not have been to go to a y

33:28 Not good enough in mathematics and science.

33:33 But maybe good enough politically. That's that was accidental political development that took place.

33:46 Once you got but once you got into politics and once you became a socialist and thought of yourself as a socialist.

33:56 With a kind of allergic to the things that you did there after when I joined the Socialist Party. I was about 20 years old after reading deliberately picking it because I was somewhat literate. I became Secretary of the branch socialist Brands 16th ward branch on the west side of Milwaukee and the Irish area.

34:25 And from there, I am immensely became Secretary of the county committee and Secretary of the State committee, and I've been in that activity since that but it was a sideline. That's not the major was a sight word.

34:45 Not my Razor and when I ran for mayor in 1940.

34:52 44 as the Socialist candidate for mayor of Milwaukee with a Citywide ticket and my ticket members were late were nominated, but I was not in 1948 by series of flukes. I got elected.

35:16 We disappointed that you got elected by a series of flukes, but I was surprised what were the flukes most important for. What is my older brother who had been elected mayor in 1940 disappeared at Sea in 1942 in the war took me a long time later on find out what happened to him. But he became something of a local hero of type military hero. So that was a hell.

35:58 Secondly, I had a lot of relatives they were socialists, but they helped me so hard. I had the support of the labor force.

36:15 What's on the ballot with 15 people in their primary and my name came up first, which is a very great advantage since I had the support of journalists many Meijer have the Milwaukee leader and six there was the leader presses was still there that we could still turn out literature and then at 7 the other candidates except Henry Royce, who is a good man good man.

36:57 And those candidates when I got nominated to their vaults to me, so I got in by wholesale string of flukes.

37:12 That really bugs some of the leading figures in the Milwaukee Journal though. Some of the reporters are very friendly.

37:25 We're almost out of time. But I wanted to ask something of a final question. So many of us have think of you in different ways. We think of that was being a decent person in a in a mayor and a and a socialist and an arbitrator mediator. How do you think of yourself when you wake up in the morning here? I am Frank zeidler. How do you think of yourself? I stay to myself mostly As a parent of a family and that I have responsibility for my wife children see that they're taken care of then I have responsibilities to the organizations. I belong to of which there are many

38:10 United Nations Association of Milwaukee Turner's Central North Community Council Socialist Party County committee Socialist Party State Committee just to mention a few of them.

38:25 Optimistic

38:28 About the future

38:30 For us. No, I'm not optimistic unless we can change the character of the Republican Party.

38:43 Republican party is at its core long World policy courting disaster.

38:54 On side end on such a gloomy note to ask.

39:01 No, I just if mr. Zeiler has any sort of closing statement. Maybe we have another minute or two to talk about that. We didn't talk about today or that you didn't finish.

39:19 Well recently.

39:22 A manuscript that I wrote 40 years ago about my experience. Some of my experiences have been published is called a liberal and city government.

39:35 And that book of my poetry was published to talk about that. I used to do a lot of writing and speculated a lot of stuff.

39:46 When to call it a liberal in City governments that of a cell because in 1940.

39:53 81 Iran, we had a coalition of liberal Democrats old-timer LaFollette progressive labor people and social people and no one label that you can attach to all of his liberal. There were liberal, of course now means 180 degrees difference and what it used to be and then 19th century with Mentos or did what any government interfering with what they're doing in business. Now, the Liberals are ones that approach almost a socialist viewpoint.

40:35 That is a government should take care of those things that aren't being done by private interest.

40:43 So that's the new significance for a liberal.

40:49 Well, thank you.

40:51 Thank you. Thanks very much. Thank you both for coming.

40:55 Thank you.