Cecilia Holm and Susanna Holm

Recorded March 19, 2006 Archived March 19, 2006 48:18 minutes
0:00 / 0:00
Id: MBY001249


daughter interviews her mom about race relations in cincinnati, and a wonderful memory of sitting on a plane beside an african american man who remembered her dad from 40 years ago.


  • Cecilia Holm
  • Susanna Holm

Recording Location

MobileBooth West


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00:03 My name is Susanna home and I'm 39 years old. It's March 19th 2006 in Flagstaff, Arizona, and I am the daughter of a Cecilia Campbell home.

00:17 My name is Cecilia Campbell home. I was born in August 8th 1931 which makes me 74 years old. It's March 19th of 2006, Flagstaff, Arizona, and I'm with my daughter Susanna.

00:32 My mother I was born to Celia Campbell in 1931 and she's always had a very Vivid detailed memory that goes very far back and some of her earliest memories were of growing up on an Army Post in Southern Arizona on Fort Huachuca. Her father was stationed as a regular army officer there between World War 1 and World War II and I've asked you to come back to Arizona where I live now to share with me some of the stories about her father and about Fort Huachuca and reflect with me on what those stories had meant to her and what they meant about our family.

01:11 The first question I think I'd like to ask is could you tell me a little bit about what Fort Huachuca looks like I can tell you quite a bit about what for but to collect likes you then I have cuz you said I have a very detailed memory that goes way back. It's a joke in the family Fort Huachuca was the night the 1930s was very isolated. Very self-contained. It was rate laid out as Army Post where at that time and probably still are in a rectangle on one side of the one of the long sides of the rectangle there with officers quarters opposite them where the barracks the post exchange at one end. There was the hospital and the Officers Club at the other end where several buildings one of which was my first school.

02:06 And in the distance, there was the Arizona desert. It was a very beautiful beautiful location, but very isolated very self-contained and I think that's part of why it's so vivid in my memory.

02:21 It was a regular army post. It was part of the segregated Army segregated by class by race is there were enlisted officers enlisted man officers and then black troops.

02:45 We rarely left the post. We took trips to no gallus occasionally and sometimes the Tucson but it was a very contained life. It was a good life for me as an officer's daughter. I was 0567 before there. I had a pony I could walk across the parade ground to my school. I had dancing lessons. It was a very it was a very pleasant way to spend those years. It was hard for all of us to leave. In fact, my mother who came from Maryland. I had thought might feel that the desert as being foreign and oppressive, but you told me much later in life to the beauty was just overwhelming.

03:33 And in what your father was an officer, what was his relationship to the Troops in the enlisted men? I really was not very much aware of that certainly with the black troops. They were peripheral to our to my life. I had one of my best friends Patty Cooper was the daughter of an enlisted man, and I never would have realized that accepted one afternoon. I was waiting for my father to take me down to Patty's house in the enlisted men's quarters. And apparently the person who was in the room had a question about that and my father replied why not. He's a hell of a fine fella and so there was no distinction in in our family and that way so you lived at Fort Huachuca for a for a few years and then your family moved on but you also I remember we went back

04:33 As a family to Fort Huachuca and can you tell me it was in the 1970s? What was it like going back? I was really of two minds about going back. We had been at Christmas if my mother's home in California and we drove to Tucson and then drove South and I had known that the base had expanded tremendously. I think there was a signal Corps there and I know now it's a center for Army intelligence and people had told me that it was just huge.

05:06 It was a wonderful surprise to drive in from Sierra Vista, which was fry in my in the days that I was there to find that the heart of this huge Army establishment was still exactly the same. The officers quarters had been preserved the layout my school was not at school anymore, but I could recognize I could recognize everything and I could get the feeling of what it had been like there. It was a wonderful opportunity to share that with my husband and my children.

05:41 And it says it's something of a joke in the family that all of the different places you have lived over the years as you were growing up somehow they've only managed to survive. So it's not surprising to us that it did but you were lucky in this case that not only did the post survive. You actually had a conversation few years later in the in the 1970s with someone who had been at Fort Huachuca at the same time as your family. Can you tell me a little bit about that Institute incident is what has precipitated this interview moment. It was a a moment out of time and I felt that it should be preserved and I certainly have shared it with my children. I was flying again to my mother's house in California. We're flying over the desert over the Arizona desert. I was sitting next to an elder and older African American gentleman in when we begin to talk. He told me that he was a retired Pro Bass.

06:41 An officer from Oakland had been visiting his daughter in Oklahoma recovering from a stroke. Then we shared that my bit of Our Lives current lives. We looked down at the deserts and he said it's hot down there you ever been down there? And I said, yes, I spent part of my Early Childhood in Fort Huachuca, Arizona, and he said I was stationed at Fort Huachuca in the 30s and something made me say my name was Campbell then and he turned and looked at me and said was Captain Campbell your daddy and I said, yes, he was a captain while we were there. He was a major when we moved on. He said he said to me a man was a man to your daddy. He was here. He treated everybody the same the guys knew that it that they might wind up feeling potatoes for a week, but he was fair.

07:39 They liked him.

07:41 And there was a little pause and he said did he ever did your daddy ever tell you about going on maneuvers and Arkansas and strangely enough? I had a letter from my father from Arkansas it written it on the Maneuvers telling me that the is Steward was taking good care of him that he was anxious to get back and to give my mother kiss. So I said yes, I do know he went on those Maneuvers and he said we were in bed with long train of trucks Dusty and hot open trucks. We pulled into a gas station and the people there wouldn't service. They wouldn't service your daddy got down and he said to them if these men are good enough to serve their country. They're good for anything. You've got in this place.

08:31 And they were out there with lemonade with pop with ice water. He said A man was a man to your daddy and that has meant a great deal to me over the years.

08:42 It was a recognition of something that I dimly had realized about my father. He was fair. He was a patriot he

08:52 Was conservative but he has some really deep beliefs about the value of all people.

09:03 Can you can you tell me a little bit about where your father came from and where you think he might have gotten those values. He was born in Omaha, Nebraska in 1882. He went to school there. He was part of a family. The father is father died when my father was eight and his mother raised the eight children with the help of an extended family. He became a drummer as traveling salesman and traveled through the the states of adjoining, Nebraska, Wyoming, Iowa.

09:46 He he had a strong sense of family. He had a strong sense of patriotism and I have a letter that he had written to my aunt nail from a hotel in Iowa. And she said she passed it on to me part of impart. It said the war is coming.

10:09 We have no for no man in our family has served this country and a war surely we should do our part. I'm the only unmarried fit male in the family. I am taking advantage of my time on the road and have brought books with me. I'm studying. I hoped passed the officer's candidate test with high marks and he did he did he entered the Army before the first World War began as a lieutenant. He went to France. He was part of general pershing's staff.

10:46 So he he went in he ended up in a Fort Huachuca.

10:54 Eventually you ended up in California. Can you I know there's some good stories about

11:03 What Colonel Campbell did in California after he had retired from the Army? Could you could you tell me a little bit about that. Yes, we retired to Covina California. Was it an orange growing Community a Mile Square and as they're very

11:25 Very very similar people very middle-class some lower middle-class people farmed a ranched. We bought 10 acres of oranges and we had chickens and we had rabbits at that point of retired colonel from the Army did not receive very much of a pension. So he he dug his own ditches. Irrigated his own orange trees.

11:52 I have a remembrance then that has stuck with me and it's only lately that I put these things together the American Legion operator to swimming pool in Covina. We all swim there it was it was very nice. But apparently there was one family in town who did not swim there. It was an African American Family the Washington's my father felt that was wrong and I was with him in the car. Is he circulated around his contact the car dealership The Filling Station the real estate office and I can remember him saying, you know Ivan. It's not right that boy should be able to swim there and I heard it over yet. You know Judd it's not right that boy should be able to swim there and he was able to swim near my father desegregated the Covina swimming pool so that the little Washington boy could swim there.

12:49 I was embarrassed frankly to be going a lot and all this text but Expedition side. I didn't want him to make waves, but my father never hesitated from making a wave if it was something he believed it was something he believed in.

13:06 They talked a little bit about your father and one of the things that I'm really interested in is used. You've shared these stories with your children.

13:16 About what he did and it's interesting for me to see what you then did.

13:24 And your generation and I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about some of the the stories that have been passed down. I know that right after college you went to work in a settlement house in Chicago if you could tell me.

13:43 Why you went from California you just graduated from UCLA and and you went all the way out Chicago me know what made you do something like that. I was very strong-minded and I found it first Daughters of strong-minded men frequently are at least as strong-minded as they and we had our class is over plenty of things when I was at UCLA. It was known as The Little Red Schoolhouse was a time of the McCarthy hearings in California had their own communist baiting hearings. So I'd like my time at UCLA and I lived in an interracial Co-op. I was part of students for Democratic action. I really and some of these were a little too far for my father, but I just told him you're the one that started it and he recognized that so I went to to Chicago to work in a settlement house. I wanted some Adventure

14:43 And Chicago seem to be a good place to go. I'd I stayed there and worked in the inner city and a settlement house for 3 years was I was it was a wonderful experience and I met your father there. And what did you do at the settlement house? I was the director of girls programming for a while and then they promoted me to program director and I hesitated about that because I really liked what I was doing and I called my father and he said this they want to promote you you've got to do it and you can do more for the people that you want to help when you get a little bit higher. He said I was always happiest does a captain because I had enough power to make a difference but I hadn't lost touch with the troops that I was there to care for Lisa go ahead get promoted. So I did and and I I I could see what he meant that you can.

15:41 You can do more from a little higher up.

15:44 And and you met my father and what was he doing there? He came after graduating from Seminary at Yale came to spend a year working in an inner-city Parish.

16:03 He came from the same kind of background Kansas people who are very principled very patriotic and we didn't like each other much at first, but then we begin to realize that we did we had started from the same place and we decided we go on together.

16:21 And I know that one of the next steps after that was actually in Chicago and you and Dad were called to an integrated Church on the southside of Chicago in the 60s. Can you can you tell me a little bit about what that was like and what the congregation was like the congregation had been mostly Italian. It was third church mostly Italian. It was on the very edge of the expanding Medical Center in Chicago that true which was the

16:59 Just a conglomeration of professional people people on welfare people of other ethnic groups other races some Highly Educated people. I can remember during the riots following the assassination of Martin Luther King when the whole area just north of us was gone up in Flames. We had church as usual on Sunday and our crew of people came out at the time that the National Guard trucks were pulling driving past the the church. They looked at us like we were from another planet and we looked at them in the same way.

17:42 It was it was a wonderful church group a wonderful family.

17:48 And there's a story about Dad going out on on that day. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Well, as I said the real riding in the burning was going about four blocks north of where we were all though. I did see Furniture being carried by our window and we had calls from all over the country to see if we were all right, but your father disappeared for a while and the next thing I knew of a black residents aren't one of our neighbors pulled up in his pickup truck and apparently he had been driving up there any sign my father just walking a lot in the middle of this. I need my heart. Your father walking along in the midst of all this upheaval in the open to the store and said boy, what you doing out here you get in here and so my father got in and Bobby McGee brought him back to the relative safety.

18:48 And from Chicago you moved on to Cincinnati and dad took another church there which I think had to have a pretty big impact that that's the first church that I recall and I get had a pretty big impact on.

19:09 Kristi Nelson in myself. Can you tell me a little bit about what this church was about and what it was trying to do this tier, 2 as an experimental church with people gathered from other churches. We met in homes. In fact, you said under the communion table, which was someone's dining room table frequently. It was a group of people who had determined to get together to see what kind of changes they could do on institutions. These were all white people. They were all professional they all had some area of power or expertise and they wanted to use that for racial reconciliation working on school desegregation on institutional.

19:53 Segregation and at the end of three years. The agreement had been that they would go back to ordinary churches and be the leaven in the loaf to bring about more racial change changing racial attitudes. It was very hard for these people to leave leave-in to disperse. It took a year for them finally to decide that they could do more good back in the real world.

20:23 And from there

20:27 What what did that lead to an end in Dad's work?

20:32 Well, he became and has been for the last 25 years.

20:38 30 years at the director of an interdenominational group in Cincinnati the leaders of the Muslim Jewish Protestant and Catholic judicatory have gathered together to work on social issues. This Bennetts had an impact in Cincinnati it some

20:59 Cincinnati is an unusual City. I feel it has a bad rap nationally it but it takes things seriously and this group of judicatory leaders has had a a real impact in not only racial issues but openness.

21:21 It's been a really once-in-a-lifetime kind of opportunity perfect for your father, and he was perfect for it.

21:30 And at the same time that dad was doing this you went back to school.

21:36 Can you tell me a little bit about what you were trying to do? I went back to school to become a Montessori teacher. We lived in an integrated neighborhood when we moved there in the 60s people were moving out. There was a lot of blockbusting and panic peddling, but what was left was the people who wanted to be able to live together and the people who are moving in who I wanted that same thing. It's been a wonderful place to live always on the edge of falling apart, but it it is been a

22:13 A good as you know a good place to live and I came back and had a preschool there that serve 94 preschool children and their families. And again, the diversity was with wide-ranging wide from professionals black and white two people who are on welfare. It was a wonderful full film it for me.

22:38 And can you tell me a little bit about your philosophy and maintaining the student body?

22:47 I wanted it to be diverse. I wanted to be people who cared for each other because they were there with their children. It was a perfect way to help them care for each other's children and they did we I consider just a missionary effort and we took 10% of our children came from wealthy suburbs surrounding and there was always a line to get in because there's a hunger among most people.

23:15 For something that crosses boundaries that helps them relate to other people and I firmly believe that there are a lot of people who are stuck far out in the suburbs who know that there is something lacking and who want to find it and certainly for their children to have it you had it Susannah you were a minority in a school if by the time you were in the sixth grade you were the only white girl. That was an interesting experience.

23:48 I think it was a very helpful experience. I do because I have had moments of wondering whether it was right to expose children to something where they were so much in a minority. Well and I think what I mean, I think they have there were difficult episodes. I mean, I've I've talked to you about some of those being very left out of some things or being physically singled out in ways which were difficult but you know as you get older, I think one of the things that you realize is that

24:30 To be able to decide whether you're going to be in minority or not is a is a privilege that people don't that many people don't have and so it's not really something you should you should get hung up on being worried by that that was okay to do to your child. I think being in that position was very helpful because I I did get some sense of what it felt like to be in a minority situation where you're very self-conscious where you're very aware of what you're doing and and how it's interpreted and how you may be representing for a large number of people who aren't there.

25:11 But I think it was a very very powerful experience for me and very important one.

25:18 Well our conversation the other night made me realize that that is true. That is true. You have an empathy for the children that you work with now and your job and empathy for children who might be left out who are may not be challenged. I was very impressed Susanna and I felt as though I could see my father's values.

25:43 Passed on and still in use it was a very

25:49 Rewarding evening. I think it's interesting because what I

25:58 Sea is Miami. I never really knew my grandfather. But what I see is your generation in this family and the things that you did see what my father did seeing the care that you took to make sure that this very high-quality school was accessible.

26:20 Two children who couldn't pay the tuition who might get shut out of that kind of quality educational experience of looking at

26:33 My Aunt Tish and my uncle Leo who were married back east and it was 7 years after The Mis-Education laws were repealed need to mention that Leo was African-American with African-American and and and closer out here in Flagstaff of my Uncle Wayne and and Agnes who Navajo marrying in Flagstaff. Only three years after the massage Nation Wallace had been repealed and the kind of family that you all provided for my sisters and myself.

27:11 It was it was it made?

27:15 Some of the issues we've talked about very real. It's not Siri. It's not it would be nice if we could all live together. We all did what we had a family that included so many different kinds of people who are such incredible individuals all on their own Marquita Lister, who was Leo's daughter Lisa.

27:41 African American opera singer very well-known and

27:48 My cousin tampson is a lawyer for the Navajo tribe mean they're there people that I think.

27:57 We're giving some of the strength to.

28:00 Bee Trail Blazers or push boundaries in our generation because of what we saw from your generation, which I saw for my father's generation. Exactly. I think the theme for my 74 years. I think the defining issue in this country has been the movement toward racial reconciliation. I think we have been very very fortunate to be that intimately involved in that journey, I am

28:33 I couldn't have asked for anything better for all of us then to be part of that.

28:38 So my question we started out talking about your father Colonel Campbell and one of the questions that has that has crossed. My mind is in looking at this family, which is so different than and include so many different folks. What do you think? He would think about that?

29:05 As I said he was conservative, but I think the bottom line was that he respected people.

29:12 And the values that

29:15 That he had where our family values which is a label that has is now being put on some values that I don't recognize. I think they're the family values that respect others that try to do your best those those are our values that I don't recognize in

29:37 Some of the

29:40 The statements in the positions that are held by Family Values people now.

29:46 So you think he'd be?

29:48 Happy with the what his descendants have done. I think he would be very very proud.

29:57 Very very proud. I think the the applications of the values are different but it's the fact that there are values that are held deeply-held set.

30:11 Continue to be active.

30:17 I don't know. If do I have anything else cuz there's something else you would like to share. I think we've covered two dice and Anna came in and said what we wanted to say at this point that we may have years and years and years more to go. There's another generation out there and Adam and Andrew and hope so we'll see and there are too many there are already heading that way stay tuned for episode 2.

30:49 So interesting.

30:53 Well, I was I was very one of the few few white children and their number of incidents. I mean it was it was a situation in which

31:04 On top of that. I was a geek I really stuck out and so, you know, I was called out to fight. I was smart enough not to do that. My older sister showed up and we would get and I I learned not to show up when you know Valor is

31:31 Living to fight another day, but I mean they're in Amber said the one is one of the ones that I think that was most difficult for me was actually just because it was so Random was a friend of mine and I were actually walking down across our field are play field to my mother's school where it was at that time for lunch and it was my friend and I who was also white and we walked past a group of African-American guys, and we got past them and all of a sudden I felt something on the back of my head and they were throwing rocks

32:10 No particular reason, I mean other than we were who we were and I think that's what

32:16 What I learned to take out of it as I got older was this whatever kind of behavior was being shown to me. It really had very little to do with who I was as an individual and it was when I go back to my neighborhood.

32:34 There a lot of kids that I went to school with who didn't didn't get out in. What way we didn't go to college didn't you know Landa a good job and who are who I think in some ways knew that's where it was headed even even that early and I think there was frustration at just knowing that the the opportunities were not going to be the same and until I think it's sort of played out in

33:04 Picking on picking on me

33:07 So those are some of the the kinds of things.

33:13 Well, it was a public school and

33:18 My mother could choose to put me in there or could put me in a a private school where I would have been.

33:26 You know another

33:29 Adolescent white girl

33:33 But but they were they were living what they believe that this was important to have all kinds of people in the neighborhood school. But this was our neighborhood. It was an integrated neighborhood and so

33:50 Going to the school there was important it was what you what you did and I think she's had some guilt because if it was a difficult time late 1960s early 70s to to be in there, but it was so it was a choice on her part.

34:12 But it's also it's a it's a temporary thing because I knew.

34:17 When I want another situations outside of my school, I wasn't a minority until it was there wasn't there was a an element of choice in in being there and

34:31 That I don't think

34:33 Everybody has I think that part of it too was it you you made some very deep friendships there with both with white children with African American children with Lisa with Robbie. And when you were home last time and the fellow that lives behind us, I don't know recognized you been and was so glad to see you. I think it means when you've got done that you can go anywhere you can be in any kind of group. I think you're more comfortable with the discomfort that comes of not of not being the majority. I don't know.

35:21 But that's as common An Occurrence as you would hope in 2006 that

35:30 I think what I had said, I had situations I buy my college we had a racial incident and we had one day devoted to teaching about racial relations. And I always actually working as a as a staff member at the college at that point and I was sitting in a group of high-level administrators and undergraduate students.

35:54 And high-level admit we're talking jeans were talking about how they grew up in Jim Crow South and had lived a very segregated life and had never had these kinds of opportunities to live with a lot of different cultures.

36:12 And what was so disturbing to me was that the student the undergraduate students?

36:17 Had all lived in very segregated

36:22 Situation that would no longer by law. It was by practice that the that the communities that they lived lived in.

36:29 Didn't really provide them the opportunity to to mix with a lot of different people and it was sort of at that moment when I was 22 that it is a lot of it really started to kick in that what I had experienced in in my neighborhood in my school was not what a lot of people experienced and and is a bit depressing and someone that we would come through the 70s and the 80s and Britain to the 90s and and not much had changed since the forties in the fifties.

37:04 So what have you learned or how have you been shaped by your mom's choice?

37:10 Well, I think I think

37:13 I think what she sees and what she's she's talked to me about is that

37:20 I had the opportunity.

37:23 To be an outsider very early in my life. And what that did was make me very aware of bringing Outsiders in and one of the things that I do in my job, I work for Johns Hopkins is creating summer residential academic programs for students who are about that age of adolescence and it's a residential experience, which means they're they living with the same people that they're learning with and it's an international program. So their kids from all over the place. They give away millions of dollars worth of financial aid. So that children from different socio-economic backgrounds can come into when you put all of these kids together.

38:11 Without parents around it's really important to make sure that you create a community that helps them.

38:22 Give to each other and care for each other. And in order to do that. You have to see how people might be excluded.

38:29 Do you remember the Hispanic man that was on the plane with you coming back from California a year or so ago at the end of one of your programs and it have been written up in the newspapers? And he said what are you reading? And Susanna said it's about my school and he said when she was finished. He said may I read it and this was a school in Southern California. That was basically hispanic Mexican American and low income but they had had the opportunity to participate in this program. And when I remember that you said when the man finished it he folded paper up.

39:09 And handed it back to you and said thank you for what you're doing.

39:13 And I think that's a tremendous.

39:18 If I ever and I think it's important for kids to to get to meet each other and see the cousin off a lot in common and just just having the opportunity I think in some ways that is almost as important as what they learn in the in the classroom.

39:37 So what do you think about your mom's Choice way back then? I'm fine with it. She still struggled.

39:55 I think the bottom line seeing how they've all turned out. It was the right choice to make I think their lives are Fuller. They are more confident of being able to go anywhere. They know who they are. I think the bottom line it was the right choice. I think it was very hard to see him feeling frozen out and the other two daughters too, but they have all of all three of them are making a really exceptional contribution not just through their jobs, but just through their relationships with other people there.

40:35 Their philosophy their pit the political point of view. I think the bottom line is it was a good choice. It was a good choice. It was a choice that many children are never never have the opportunity to deal with the Never.

40:54 I am very fearful about the isolation of the suburban school systems.

41:03 But that's another hole that they're too too too short the vignettes that that can kind of sum up my time at that's cool and Roots came out while I was there and there's this like and I can't remember the line exactly, but it's basically

41:24 They're they're telling each other how to avoid the slave catchers in Africa.

41:31 And so it translates for something on the line that you can tell that you can tell they're coming because white people smell like wet chickens or something. I don't know how many times I heard some variation about, you know about myself and that was for the not-so-great side of things but on the other side, I mean one of my best images

41:57 Was at the beginning of all of our school Gatherings or you know whenever we were together as a school.

42:10 What you said what you saying was we shall overcome and and so it was this experience. I mean that was just that I knew the words to that backwards and forwards and left and right by that time and it is it's it's something that has stuck with me that I don't think a lot of schools were singing We Shall Overcome. Is there there School cheer?

42:33 So it's been good. I mean those are the kinds of things that I guess I've carried with me good good and bad.

42:48 As a mom when you were watching.

42:53 I think they were probably several.

42:57 But the alternative was to

43:02 Deprive them of something that I felt eventually would be of benefit and one friend said to me once your school isn't their whole life. It's a part of their whole life. And the rest of their life. Our life is a family as an extended family with all these different groups. I think was was there with her Mane life the school gave him a view into what life was like for some and I think anything that helps you develop empathy with other people in the long run is good because you're a fuller person you there's another dimension to you then just what you know from your family your your same racial group or same religious group.

43:50 I think it leads to a far richer life with many more dimensions and aspects. I think it's a richer life.

44:02 And I'm glad I come to peace with that there were times when I didn't like to have her call the Geek. She wasn't a geek.

44:11 If I was but I mean it's interesting cuz it's probably I don't know a hundred or so.

44:21 In my 6th grade class. One of the schools in Cincinnati is that it's a public school. It's a magnet school and you test to get into it.

44:33 And so they give the the test to all of the sixth graders and I can remember when I was notified that I've been accepted and it was literally they pulled about four or five kids out from the sixth grade rooms and told us and it was I don't think they actually said this but I think it was communicated. You might not want to share with everybody but what I thought was so interesting was there only for five of us and and it was it was pretty split balanced of African-American and and white kids who would be going on to the school and we went on to the vet school and you you were invited to come in based on your

45:17 Academics you cure your ear run testing.

45:22 But what was so interesting about the school when we got there was that it was a pretty balanced school when Cincinnati went through desegregating the schools, which is actually brought by one of by the family of my best friend. This whole case was by the Bronson Family and they came up with a formula for how to desegregate and you had to have a representative number number representative of the of the larger population of the city and this is one of the few schools that didn't have to do anything because it was it was it was based on not where you lived or how much money you had or anything like that. It was just what do you as an individual bring to the table and when you do that

46:11 It is representative.

46:14 Turn

46:16 My last

46:23 Mom lets you age before Beauty. Are you asking me?

46:42 And it's beautiful.

46:44 It's a privilege.

46:47 I've I've been privileged that that there's some cohesion to it. When you get to this point, you can see that this led to this and this led to this and this led to that and there's a consistency through it if you've been lucky if you've been able to to grow from the beginnings of a father and mother who felt this way and and marry someone who encourages that same thing it's a growth and I think the

47:24 I think it's been wonderful.

47:27 Wonderful

47:28 And I just would like to have some more of it and I'm only thirty-nine so I'd still don't I don't know. I'm still figuring it out. I know I know I think that's the that's what I've taken. Is that do you not in it alone? Definitely. I think I have always been pretty aware of of my ancestors and that the this is all of a piece and that it's a

48:04 It's good to know but it's also a responsibility to pass along to the Next Generation.