Terry Pickett and Kate Pickett

00:05 My name is Kate Pickett and I'm 22 and today is July 17th 2006 for an Ames Iowa, and I'm interviewing my dad Terry.

00:16 And my name is Terry Pickett. I am 61 today's date is July 17th 2006. Where in Ames Iowa and I am talking to my daughter Kate?

00:28 I wanted to talk to you today Dad about your experiences as a draft resistor during the Vietnam War era. And so I just wanted to get an idea of just a little bit of background about you first. I mean, I know that you came from kind of a working family and your dad was a blue-collar worker and you know, all that sort of stuff kind of about how that influenced you up until the Vietnam War and how that affected your convictions and ideals, okay.

01:07 You're right. I did come from a working-class family your grandfather. My father was a Powerhouse mechanic worked on turbines. It was hot and it was dirty but seem to take a great deal of Pride and what he did. I have five brothers and sisters. I think almost technically as I look back on it. We might be classified as Working Poor. I'll go at that time. We had no sense that we were poor cuz the community were in everybody else was essentially in the same situation. So it wasn't until I started to travel that I realized there were other classes out there.

01:49 How did that influence me it will you know, the

01:54 The working-class perspective on life is pretty straightforward and simple stuff is a bunch of crap gets called a bunch of crap it.

02:05 And I-10 and it's not necessarily very theoretical or high fluting and it's often interpreted quite personally event, sir are understood in terms of the impact. It has on you not necessarily the impact it has on the on the world or something like that. So I think straightforwardness and kind of the nitty-gritty oenis about it.

02:30 Part of that influence

02:32 Your grandfather my dad was

02:36 Try to enlist during World War II was in the National Guard and then spent part of this time during World War II testing machine guns and ammunition plant, but he never served in the in a combat position.

02:55 Although his brother was a colonel in the Army and did and his brother-in-law was a captain in the Army and did so there was military and in the family background.

03:07 So my next question is about the Vietnam war in the sixties. And what were you doing during the sixties? I mean, I know you were born in 1944. So you probably your twenties and yeah, I'm going to college I graduated from college in 1967. So I was mostly in high school and college during the 60s and I must admit that I was

03:35 I'm not much aware of on a on a daily basis what was going on in the world while I was in high school and college has it wasn't one of the things that was there until about 1967 I think and then particularly when I when I graduated from college and I went to graduate school.

03:57 To work on my Master's is when I became more intensely aware of what this conflict was about and the impact it was having on people's lives people in Vietnam and soldiers that were there and families of soldiers that were their Raonic Lee enough. I think when I graduated from college, I didn't have a a great idea what I wanted to do and I tried to enlist in the Air Force because I enjoyed flying and I wanted to be a pilot because my eyesight wasn't good enough. They said I could be a navigator and I said I could fly in a plane as a civilian so I look back on that has as

04:41 Fate there right? There was something going on and it was quite significant.

04:46 As matter fact, I I had to explain that to the draft board and not to their satisfaction.

04:53 So you were involved in or interested in the war before you were drafted too and you're involved in protest protest around the Kansas City area and in Chicago?

05:10 In and was involved with

05:15 At that time I didn't realize that I had a conscientious objection to the war. But I knew that this particular war or what they called a war was not just it was the one that we should be participating in.

05:31 And so I was involved with the American friends field service committee on the American friends are a pacifist group. But they were involved in providing counseling and advice to people that were subject to the draft and particularly those of thought that they might have a conscientious objection to war in general or violence as a way to settle disputes or particularly too young man at that time who have had a conscientious objection to that one.

06:05 So when did you realize that you were a conscientious objector with it when you were drafted or no? I think it really became clear in my mind that.

06:16 What was partly because of my relationship with your mother and I realized that I had such an intense love for her that I could potentially have that same relationship with anybody in the world. And so the prospect of of killing someone where that that potential relationship existed struck me as in more of an ambush. It was as a result of of my relationship with your mother that I think it became quite clear to me that that was

06:54 It's just something that I do I should not do.

06:58 Put myself in a situation where I might do that.

07:02 So how were you drafted did they just send you a letter in the mail and say you're drafted come here at this time in this place and put on and on the day I sent the letter to my draft board telling them that I wanted to apply for conscientious objector status. They sent me a letter saying that I was drafted and according to Selective Service law when they send their letter to me legally. I've received it but on the other hand when I send my letter to them they haven't received it until they actually got it. So they told me that my claim for conscientious objector status was untimely and therefore they weren't going to recognizing.

07:48 So what happened after you receive the letter?

07:53 Where will I was distraught?

07:58 But I don't think I was scared because it was clear to me what I had to do and that that while they thought they had the right to draft me. I had the right to say no so they they actually couldn't put me in a situation where I would kill someone else. So what I did was and this is part of what the American friends help you understand is I started to contact senators and congressmen asking them I'd this is all a tactic to review my file to see if I couldn't get a hearing from the draft board on my claim for conscientious objector status, even though the draft board said, it was untimely eventually that will work. I got to go talk to the draft.

08:49 So what was the draft board like?

08:53 Where was it August in Kansas City had to go back to Kansas City cuz your draft board is always where you live. I mean where you were registered for the draft not necessarily where you were living at a particular point in time. My recall is that they were polite but dubious and they had their mind made up. They told me that a Catholic could not be a conscientious objector because unlike

09:23 The Quakers or the friends are the Jehovah Witnesses whose part of their religious belief is that all war is immoral Catholics have a theory of adjust warshall are some Wars so I don't think they were well informed. I had a bishop actually come and explain it to him in but it was clear to me that we were just going through the motions because I'm Congressman that asked for this and So eventually that they were going to draft me.

09:52 Now, I remember you telling me a story is a kid about actually going down to the border to in order to legally because I also wanted to make a statement. I mean, I also wanted to witness the fact that I didn't think war was morally acceptable.

10:15 If you just didn't show up.

10:19 Do your draft appointment? I guess I owe you a call that and then that was against the law and they would arrest you. So what you had to do in order to me that my only recourse was to go to court on this. So in order to do that, I had to go through all of the draft so I had to go down and take the physical and I remembered there was all these little position where you stopped. You're not there and checked your lungs to check your eyes in at every position. I told them, you know, I'm going to refuse to be inducted today and nobody wanted to deal with it. They said your eyes are fine move on until someone else has a big room and names were called me when into a smaller room and there was a woman that said that you don't necessarily have to join the Army today cuz we're looking for people to join the marine and I said, well not only want to join the Marines I said, that's right.

11:19 So then I went the actual Act of accepting induction. Other than that, I don't think they're armed services would describe it as accepting induction at the actual Act of being inducted is where are you standing in a room with everybody and you swear an oath to the Army and you take a step forward and with the step forward that's actually being inducted into the armed services. So I I tried to let everybody know is I was supposed to do that. I wasn't going to be inducted but nobody wanted to deal with it. So I must admit we're in this room and there must be a hundred young men and and I was so afraid because I was nervous. I was so afraid that I was going to faint and fall forward and I was going to wake up in Fort Leonard Wood cut into the army, but I kept I kept I kept thinking about your mother right in that kind of gave me the verb to get through this.

12:19 And everybody step forward and then I tell you what, there's a great deal of pressure 199 people all around you step forward and you don't and I don't step forward and it really upset the captain that was in charge of all this because I didn't ruin the ceremony as a matter of fact some of the other ninety-nine turned around to look at me and I could tell in their eyes and a couple of were saying but we don't need to do this. So I think it was I was an infection and so they ushered me out of the room as quickly as possible and they weren't they weren't harmful towards me. Although they weren't friendly towards me and I called the FBI who has to investigate violation of federal law and the FBI agents were quite courteous and what they called me. Mr. Pickett that...... And they send you know, did you know what you were doing here? And I said, yes and explain my position and so they took down my name and address and they said you're free to go to the US attorney will be contacting you about this violation.

13:19 And so I got to walk out and and I've never forgotten the feeling of walking out of that building. I'm going to handle it was a simple day, but it felt like almost being born again. The air seemed clear. The wind was refreshing. I took a breath in it. And even though I knew that the next couple years were going to be difficult. It really sounds good and my brother bill came and pick me up.

13:49 So let's just like Arlo Guthrie story then I'm sure his was romanticized to

13:58 I hear what it was. I was when you get when you go into the AAFES, which is the Armed Forces entrance in examining station. It belongs to somebody else. I mean, I could have easily just been I mean not that this would have happened but it ran through my mind I could have been abducted I could have been just thrown in the dark and taken somewhere in there. I wouldn't have had any recourse at all. So even though I was challenging the system. There is a certain Integrity to the system. That would let me do that.

14:31 So what happened after that you went to the the hearings and what were you risking? I mean, I know you had fun. We went to trial then the guy my lawyer was maintaining that there had been a procedural error and then I should have gotten the full hearing on my conscious objector status application and if it has been turned down then I could have appealed that the way it was they just had the hearing and they said there was no appeal because it was untimely because the letters crossed in the mail.

15:08 So we went to a trial and the lawyer told me what this would just be a plenary hearing and I saw your mother and I went down and the lawyer was there and the judge now this does kind of sound a little bit like Arlo Guthrie. I think it was a case of American Blind Justice. He struck me is as old and and very much oriented towards the military.

15:36 People serving in the military depends upon kind of an implicit agreement in the country that you should do that and that is that the option of not doing it is not a legitimate one. So when people like myself we're in the system, they needed to be addressed in a way than instructed other people that this is not a good thing to do because otherwise if you break that article of faith, then wonder if nobody showed up to get drafted so the judge said, well, I don't think we need to have any planetary hearings. It's pretty clear to me that he that he broke the law and I'm going to sentence him to three years in jail in federal prison, and that means you're probably serve 18 months and try and get out on early parole. You won't get it the first time you'll serve six more months and you'll apply for parole and you'll get out and that would be the two years you spent in the army.

16:30 So the gavel went down.

16:32 So I was really nervous about that. So then I then the lawyer started an appeal but during that time I was a convicted felon and so I could continue my normal life to certain extent they were going to put me in jail cuz I was out on bail but every week I had to write the US attorney and tell them where I was what I was doing where I was employed and that got to be

17:03 Tiresome. How long did you have to do this was about two years and when every week you had to write every week, but what was worse than that was?

17:12 When when it went to the appeal there was not necessarily in a time frame in which it would be decided. So the lawyer said he would call and during that two years. I got to every time the phone rang the the bottom of my stomach just fell I'm doing I didn't know if it was from him what it was going to be good news or bad news. And so it took me about I say good seven years not to be irritated by the phone ringing.

17:44 And you can tell like Carrie that habit today. I won't answer the phone.

17:55 And when the appeal did come through Chris and Nancy were visiting and I going downtown to this was I think this was 1973 and you guys were living in Kansas City on 4th floor walk-up apartment on the top floor in a Kansas City summer with a flat tar Roofing it it was hot, but the one with the crack in the wall.

18:26 We going downtown to use one of the first cash machines that ever came out cuz we needed some cash to do something and came back and Johnny said the lawyer called and that the appeal of been granted and I was expecting to feel some some weight being lifted. It was I felt better, but it was I getting so used to living with this apprehension that it took several years for that to really feel really free at some point in time, but we went out and we still remember we went out and had what we considered to be the most luxurious dinner with ever had in our life. We went to a fancy restaurant on the Plaza and we were all students right or Kristen and see where near do well and we went to this place and we didn't have Ties on and you said you wouldn't see this without ties and jackets.

19:20 He got us from the back room ties and jackets. And of course, I got the short jacket and Chris got the Long Jacket and ties and then they status in the corner. So but we had a great meal in about half way to Route took off her thighs and it came by and you said we didn't give you those ties to take them off. So we if we looked it was it was fun at the occasion was great. We still remember that is the food was great. The liquor was wonderful and r tire was superb.

19:52 How did your parents feel about all of this since your Dad tried to enlist during World War I think about his son. I never had a deep conversation with my dad about that. He was primarily concerned I think.

20:11 About who was influencing me right have I fallen in with people that were teaching me the wrong things and I think I'm pretty well convinced me that this was a decision of my own that I had a good reason for making this decision. And so I think he accepted it. I think it put him in bed stead with these brother who was the retired Colonel but put served in World War. I do I got along with my uncle after that, but I think during that about 5 year. That was difficult on my dad and relationship with his brother.

20:47 Although Bob your uncle. My brother-in-law served in Vietnam was wounded and wrote a letter supporting my conscious objection. My appeal to the draft board so that it depended upon the family.

21:04 There was a while when will both of my uncle Floyd who was married to Grace in Uncle Bud. I just really didn't interact with them enough, but I was away of graduate school at the University of Kansas and then we moved right after that to Pittsburgh. So the interaction with small.

21:24 So, I don't know whether my dad respected what I did or not or simply out of love accepted when I did.

21:35 Do you have any regrets about what happened? Other than possibly sending your letter in a week earlier than anything that you would have done differently?

21:54 I think I would have.

21:57 Try to be more conscious of events in my own thoughts about them sooner earlier. I think that's influenced hell.

22:08 I tried to engage you about contemporary events and about whether they're more or not and thinking about that cuz I don't think it's what put me in a difficult situation is is it is I think from the draft boards point of view is deciding late or what they doing. Yeah. I did some things are not right and not just go along with them.

22:37 If there's some Legacy from that year you carry it, okay.

22:43 Well, I mean besides are there any other lessons you've learned or have those lessons affected your reaction to events. Now that are almost every morning at taken out of that. Is that oh maybe two.

23:00 That

23:03 If we if we take the time to have contact with people who we think are animes we find out that they aren't your enemies that's primarily governments that have difficulties with each other people don't

23:17 Nippon the government's filter

23:20 People that the more people to people contact their is the better off we are because governments don't necessarily represent people they represent interest and not necessarily the interest of common people maybe that goes back to the blue collar kind of perspective about that. The other learning I have is that

23:44 You have choice about everything that you do.

23:48 He just have to be willing to accept the consequences sure, but you have a choice when somebody says well I had no other there wasn't anything else I could do. I always hear that ass. I don't often say that again. So you chose not to do these are the things I mean, so

24:08 And I don't say this about any particular member of the military, but even now I will say people have choice about whether they fire the weapon or not. I mean, it's not moral to follow in moral orders. So we so the key thing is try to avoid getting yourself in a situation where you feel like you have no other choice, but even at that point you have a choice

24:34 So how did this influence your reaction with the war in Iraq in The Invasion and occupation of Iraq as you call it did it bring back memories or I think we're almost word-for-word repeating. What happened in Vietnam. We were lied into Vietnam by the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. We were lied into Iraq by leaders and governments in the same situation happens young man. And now young women are put in situations where they have to make a choice between their life or somebody else's life and I received the choice I made is at the I will sacrifice my life before I take somebody else's life.

25:18 We're doing exactly the same thing. We're doing it for Eagle reasons. We're doing it for economic reasons. It's just shameful how little we've learned.

25:35 What do you see when you look at my generation of twenty-somethings that don't watch the news don't read the newspapers have some of the lowest voting turnouts of any generation and just don't don't care about the world that surround them when you were in when you were my age you were so involved in making love your Fat's in the fire. You think about things differently. I can't worry about all of them while I can do is worry about you and people you bring to dinner and they may just as a curmudgeonly and the difference about my points of you, but I don't think those bunch of you get represented anywhere else in your Generation X generalizing a bit too much because there are great people in the peace movement that are 18 19 20 21 and do a lot more than I do now.

26:33 I mean every Wednesday they go out and I sit at the war memorial and they and they protest and I don't do that enough I think is you or at least my experiences as I've aged. I value those activities, but I also realize there's waste influence the system that may not be simply appearance on the street. Although the Iraq situation leads me to maybe the only change it happens when more people hit the streets because argument and persuasion and letters to Congress people and making good arguments doesn't seem to mean anything.

27:07 So I'm discouraged about then.

27:11 I'm sure I'm a cynic but I'm not pessimistic.

27:14 I'll have your opinion I do I thought you're a little on the pessimistic side. Maybe I'm just naive so.

27:24 But we need that too.

27:27 You wouldn't know it from the way that you talk to me the dinner table. Where do I got to push you to think? We have good conversations with me to provoke you so that you take your own stand right now. Are you with me?

27:52 But it's when we get irritated with each other with that we both make good arguments name.

27:57 Are there any words of wisdom you would like to pass along to me or my generation?

28:05 Never assume that the world is benign.

28:08 But it's happening the way it's supposed to happen because it usually represents the arrangement of powerful interest the way they want things to be.

28:21 So I guess be a little bit cynical keep your naivete because I think innocence is a powerful force just to be able to look at something that doesn't seem to be reasonable or whatnot in didn't put but then to go beyond that say, I wonder why that is happening whose interests are being served and I'm not sure it's common people's interests that are being served working men and women common Folk.

28:49 Are usually the ones that pay for it. That's that's that's why Iraq is so different than Vietnam in many respects and that this is a war that's being fought by national Guardsmen. It's not being fought by your classmates being called up to serve and in so in some respects award that we got lied into is now kept away from ordinary life because it doesn't affect very many people. I mean the Sons and Daughters of Iowans buying large aren't affected by Iraq the way they were affected by Vietnam.

29:32 So there's no I mean, what is the president told us? What's the best thing we can do shop right continue on your normal ways and and there's thousands of people dying as a result of actions of our government and they're doing it in my name.

29:49 So don't take the word the way the world is unfolding as natural.

29:55 Is that the same was there the same interpretation during the Vietnam war is there is now striking a contrast between supporting the war and supporting troops. Oh, yes. Yeah. I mean it will always be the role of whatever institution promotes the conflict to always put people who object to it is people who are not supporting the troops.

30:22 And it was the same response then as it is now I support him so much. I wanted to come home or I support him so much that they shouldn't they shouldn't go at home. And so they were the same kind of argument was going on. Then I think of the peace movement has matured in that they're there was a certain strain after Vietnam of vilifying the people who did accept the draft and go to fight and on the one hand you can be empathic and understand when you're in that kind of situation and you're being shot at a natural instinct is what to shoot for sure. If you on light that comes as a result of of government structure in the situation and US accepting the situation, which I find myself in that situation and regret, I think that's why there's a lot of mental illness that happens as a result of War because people find themselves

31:20 With the awareness that they engaged in Acts that by and large are immoral and they can understand why other than they felt compelled by self-survival to do it. So there's an incongruity there and you have to live with that and sometimes I can be difficult to deal with so there was there was that same tension between officialdom saying you don't support the troops if you don't support the war in and and the awareness is it may be earlier on and stream people ought to avoid putting themselves in those kinds of situations.

32:01 Did you ever feel vilified personally, but that sentiment?

32:05 No.

32:08 I never realize you didn't walk around with a sign that say well when I did I was usually with a group of other people that were similar to me. So there was protection and even though there was one demonstration where we went to Fort Leavenworth in Kansas and and marched on the disciplinary barracks and was demanding the release of all political prisoners because there were many members of the armed forces that declare a conscientious objection once they were in the service and they were tried for dereliction of Duty or cowardice and sent to prison and so but on that March in Kansas there where there was a car that tried to run us down on the road and thank the way there was this huge African American police sergeant that was at the end of the line and whether he agreed with this or not, and then I still remember this weather he agreed with us protesters or not. His job was to make sure I think that democracy happened so he actually stood in front of the car as

33:08 Was barreling down on us and Andrew has baton not his weapon and kind of did a threatening gesture at the driver in the driver backed off.

33:19 That guy should I don't know his name, but he still sticks in. My mind is an admirable what kind of person I'm not sure you would have joined our March but it certainly supported the notion that we could do it.

33:32 Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you'd like to add dad?

33:38 I think the driving force.

33:42 Behind conscious youngsters ejection is not necessarily a political radical. I think it's essentially love. Do you realize the loving relationship you have with some people? It's the same loving relationship you could have with almost anyone even though there may be a special relationship the idea of destroying their life and their life is you need to get that day will never exist again the person just

34:11 They won't be there.

34:13 That the driving force it is love if you allow yourself to experience what that means.

34:22 That can be difficult in our culture because I don't think men are supposed to feel that way. That's not supposed to come across that way.

34:31 So I don't think I talked about that enough, but that's that's the driving force behind it and in it and all the sudden It just strikes you.

34:40 At Ma. Once it strikes you you become full of it that this is not something you can do. It's not something you should do and so you will not do it.

34:51 I told they could they could put me in jail or and I think I was willing to go to jail though. I never had to face that. Because it.

35:03 Turn off descriptions. That's not a pleasant place to be.

35:09 Weren't you considering going to Canada to are considered that but I never had to face it?

35:15 Do you know how you would have gone?

35:17 How would have gotten out of the country?

35:21 Heaven is for real real Road. The matter fact. I spent part of my time when I was teaching in Kansas City and then at Rockhurst counseling other young men about the draft and if they had decided that they wanted to go there were contacts that you would make that would get them across.

35:46 Typically around Michigan over into Canada, but their brother ways to die. So I'm not sure I would have made that choice a you could have I don't know.

36:07 I don't know. I don't know if that's that's a test. I didn't have to face. Oh.

36:13 I didn't know. I mean I wasn't relishing going to prison in order to make a point.

36:19 I think I would have gone to avoid going into the servicemen. I don't know.

36:26 Well, I've always been inspired by your dedication to Natchez public service and helping others, but peace and

36:40 Just the welfare of other people in general. I think that you have a really strong sense of dedication and duty to other people and I think it's a good example for me and people of my generation that's sweet. I appreciate that. I was thinking today that that I if I had had an opportunity to sit down with my father and had this kind of conversation about something there was stuff I would have learned but I didn't know about so I'm really touched by the fact that you wanted to do this not this

37:15 Thanks.