Mary Issacson and Julie Summers

Recorded November 13, 2008 Archived November 13, 2008 00:00 minutes
Audio not available

Interview ID: MBY004733


Mary Isaacson (46) and Julie Summers (46) discuss their time spent with the CampFire organization. They have been involved in some capacity since high school and are both current Board Members

Subject Log / Time Code

- Camp Scott Murders. Both were brought on a board to create a safe camp environment for the kids.
- Age appropriate activities. Sailing stories. Water spout blew and a tornado was on the lake. Were stranded on an island and survived. Mary was in the boat that did everything they were NOT supposed to do.
- Cooking bacon and eggs in a paper bag
- Loving camp. Worked for CampFire in Adult life as a director. Developed leadership skills and became a risk taker.
- Words of advice - Go for it! Comes to camp to relax


  • Mary Issacson
  • Julie Summers

Recording Location

MobileBooth West

Partnership Type



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00:03 I'm Mary Isaacson, and I am 46 years old. Today is November 13th 2008 and we are in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I'm talking with my friend Julie Summers. We grew up in Camp Fire together.

00:18 And I'm truly Summers and I'm also 46 years old. Today is November 13th 2008. I'm in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I'm talking with my friend Mary Isaacson who grew up a campfire with me.

00:34 Would you lie and I first met each other we were involved with campfires as youth we both grew up in the program where bluebirds and then campfire girls and both were very very involved in camps and when we are in high school in Tulsa.

00:54 We had

00:56 Well, it was a horrible accident. It was a call to Camp Scott murders and because of those murders Julian, I went to Camp the year that that actually happened and they had a lot of security at camp and after all that happened campfire decided that they needed to create a secure safe place for kids to still be a part of can't because Camp was very important to us and to the to everybody else and they kept her ask Julie and I served together on a committee that would help develop cabins. We were involved used to go to a place called chaos, which was a camp setting which is very similar to what the camp was Camp Scott and Julie and I did we first meet at that camp at the extra chaos that summer Julie was at I don't think we were rent a house together. We were both there that summer but not at the same time, but I first remembered meeting you when we are serving on the task force and it was a subcommittee subcommittee of The Campaign Committee to design a new

01:56 Older used to unit. And so we sat down and got to sit down with the architect and the camp director who was a friend of ours and and some other people on The Campaign Committee and we got to represent the voices of Youth on that committee, which is really cool for both of us cuz I was a freshman that year and Julie was a sophomore and I was just campfire we were so passionate about camping and didn't want to see the camping program go away which there was a chance of that cuz a lot of parents are really scared to send their kids to Camp after that and campfire was smart enough and really insightful enough to say that we need to do something. We need to make this a safe place and then on top of that they asked the youth to be a part of that comedian and is a

02:44 A freshman in high school. It would just meant a lot to me to be able to be a part of that. We looked at cabin designs and we really in the neat thing is I also listen to us. We weren't just there to

02:55 Make it look good. They actually listen to what our input was as far as

03:00 I remember one of the things we loved about toss was that the camp the tents were very open and you had the free that you were just you were camping. And so we didn't want to lose that so we built a structure that's a treehouse. So when we go to Camp weed

03:18 We'd be in a treehouse. Yeah, it was is about what 12 or 15 feet up in the air platform, but it had a locked door. So it meant to security requirements of the council but also gave us a sense of being in the trees and that was always my favorite place to stay after that and those people that weren't quite as can't be with staying twinkle. Oh because it had its own it have a bathroom and showers and people would that wanted to Beach have showers close hand would stand tawanka low and then those of us that love to camp and left house would always stay at Walker high and then we still had the modern amenities we had

04:02 Electricity and so one of our friends Laura Carter always brought her her tape recorder and we stay up all night dancing doing that tree house, so that and that's I think that's the first time we went to camp together was yeah, that's what I met Laura the three of you Lower Merion area always went to can't we always went to camp together and then Julian Hillary and Cynthia cell Organ Symphony and me and Liz and all of its kind of collected up there along with a few other people and what the camp every summer after that at the same time and then our counselors that we're actually at a house and then we're at this other Camp tawanka. We're still friends with him today still stay in touch with the Clarion Ledger in life. You were the counselors at that time and thinks I really remember about it was cool about being in

05:02 Blanco was that when the unit was full we had four staff. So the older the oldest kids could go out. The oldest kids could do one thing while the younger kids were doing another thing. So we were all Juniors and seniors how much use the seniors and we would come for the special interest sailing camp and we would sail at one time of day and then the the junior Sailors would sell it another time of the day and then we would do the cookout while they were sailing and they would do this cookout what we were sailing or whatever. So then at the culmination of of the last session the last year, I was a camper we went on a sales trip and it was a special interest sailing session. We've been waiting all session iguana sale trip, but every day we would check the win and it would be dead wind and we would decide it's today is not the day.

05:51 So it was the last full day of the session when we went on our sale trip. I think you were actually on staff that year, but you were going to go sailing with us and you and Liz and it was still dead wind that day when we left and we decide we were going regardless cuz by golly we wanted our sales trip. So we started out and we got to what Sailors called the point of no return. We were more than halfway from camp, but not yet to our destination when this water spout blew up and there was a tornado on the lake and we got horrible winds and and everything and I was in the group that landed on a sandbar we didn't we did all the things we are supposed to do. We trimmed our sales and stay together and two of us went off over the over the ridge to see if there's a house there so we could call Camp and we figured out we were on an island and not on the shore. So we came back together and just stay together and a couple of kids were kind of freaking out that we pretty much wherever

06:51 People down and just stay where we were but you are off on another boat and you got in a totally different situation. Julie was always in the group that always did what they were supposed to do. And what were they were supposed to go out in the boat. That was we decided there was no way and it's very boring. Let's take off our life jackets and tie them up to a rope and get pulled by the sailboat. What or just at least swim. So we all had a life jacket off and all the sudden the boat tipped over and it did what it's called a turtle which means the boat was totally upside down and because we have our life jackets off and tied onto ropes the ropes in the life jackets, totally wrapped around the masked. So the equilibrium of the boat was off off so we can get the boat turned back over and I remember looking up and seeing

07:38 Mary the other Mary and Laura standing on the boat trying to get it turned back over in it and it was floating away and I was close to our one of our counselors leppy who is in another boat that had been getting full of water. So she was in the boat by herself cuz she was little and I had just taken my life check my life-saving course, so I thought I need to go save me Slappy the last we have over to buy slappy without my life jacket on to save her and we got her boat on Shore and then I think Mary and Laura finally got their boat turned over and went to a different Shore. So we actually did everything you're not supposed to do. We took our lock off our life jackets, and we separated got separated and

08:19 It was it was a wild day so that way I feel and what I remember most about that trip besides just you know, being glad when I found out everybody was okay is that we ended up being towed home by the lake Patrol and it was just so humiliating to be in the senior sailing. You didn't get towed it on Home by The Late Late role. Well, and I remember just looking up in one of the gals. It was just she really wasn't his outdoorsy and she was just scared to death and looking up and when she was to being told she was sitting at the front of the boat just holding her arms and legs wrapped around the math to the max.

08:55 But we all made it back in.

08:59 They'd save this dinner and were obviously the camp director was just thrilled that we were all safe fry and a story that she told us while we were gone was that she had been monitoring the radio and of course worrying about us and she had heard a report on the radio that some boats have been found without people. So she was really fearful for us and was driving around to different Landings trying to see if anybody itsines. So when she got word, I guess from the lake Patrol that we were okay. She was greatly relieved when I think she'd even her there been

09:32 Bounce have been seen

09:39 Philips go out sailing again later, so we didn't get a text from the sailing program. Yeah, that was financed. And also one of the things I really remember about tawanka. That was the first time I'd ever done bacon and eggs in a paper bag. Do you remember that? I do remember that if you break it you put bacon on the bottom cook it for a little while. I put it on a stick and wave it back and forth across the flames and then you break an egg into it and you just keep waving it and eventually it supposed to cook but what really happens if your set catches on fire as you're supposed to be supposed to be patient enough that the the degrees to the bacon gets the sack moist enough that that will keep it from catching on fire. But typically the whole thing goes up in smoke any better have a back-up plan. Yep, thinking of eating cereal on a cookout that seems like that's what we did that happens a lot. So

10:33 Well, then as we got older we actually both of us I think both I was kind of had the same dream when we grew up in campfire. Our long-term goal was to be counselors and then be on staff and we run to kabuchi stuff first, which was the day K Camp and then will Healy staff and so we were Junior counselors that she poo poo Chi first while we were still while I remember remember Superman shirts with our names on the back and then then it while he lie well and then I actually was kind of fun because they would always hire a couple of dishwashers that were younger kids. And then I was able to stay a couple of Summers a little bit longer before I was old enough to be cancelled teaching arts and crafts. Oh, that's right. That was always fun. And then the front of stuff was actually after Camp was over there when the funnest but we would always get to

11:28 We'd have day camp at wallet Healy. The kids would come during the day but at night the counselors actually had to Camp to themselves to just play and and just do whatever we want to do and have fun. And so one of the things we used to like to do is to go down to the swimming pool and go skinny-dipping but the only hitch to that with the fact that we had a security guard in Camp coming around to keep us safe. And so we had to make sure that we were in the pool when his headlights hid so we tried to you know be judicious about getting down there and getting in the pool just one particular evening a couple of our older friend talked us into going down there and everybody jumped in the pool left are closed in our flip flops on the edge of the pool. And then the same people that have decided we should go skinny-dipping came down and stole our clothes. It was Sherry and Becky. I remember that and so we swam as long as we wanted.

12:28 Swam, and then we figured out when we got out that our clothes were gone and they were probably wet six or eight of us found on her quite a few of us. And so we were the youngest ones down there instead of the older stuff decided we were the ones that should go but we remember there was lost and found in the lodge the whole Somersworth of lost and found within the lodge including a gazillion towels. So they decided we should go up there and get them. So you found a pair of scuba diving what are the Clippers Clippers and a couple of those boards that used to hold on to your keyboard keyboards. Yeah, and I found one and then I found some somebody's flip-flops or something. And so we set out across the driveway up to the lodge from the pool to the lodge is Rocky. So you really can't be barefoot of this right kind of a rough Camp as far as the campground the grounds were all rocking. Typical Oklahoma rockiness. Oh, yeah. We went across the grounds with flip flops.

13:29 On our feed and kickboards covering our midsection sections, but the only problem with Kik what you picked up had a scorpion on it. Actually that know it was the only got two lost and found the one of the towels that we can grab a latte downtown a scorpion. So we wrapped up and they were so excited to find those towels and we wrapped up in those towels. And then when you had asked me understand your breasts, yep, it did and me and the booby so then we went to our camp director and said we've got a sting and she said you have to keep it lower than your heart. Yeah. This is ice on it. Keep it keep it lower than your heart and put ice on it. So that's how we spend our evenings how I said that you need after skinny-dipping and then the the girls are still our clothes feel pretty bad after that one. Remember what kind of upset that it happened, but we sure had fun with that so we did.

14:24 London also during our College Years you were in Norman and I was in Stillwater and we are back and forth then seems like you one time you and I kidnap Liz and when I took her to Stillwater for her birthday over Christmas break and covered her head and didn't tell her where we are taking her and and all that. I do remember that and then there was another time that you and I and Martha Moser and Anna went to what we went to Wichita you and Laura and I I guess and Anna went to Wichita to visit Martha. So we made a few road trips. So stay in touch during the day during college Years. Just kind of going back and forth between our different campuses and then we both went different places. You went to Abilene and I was in Oklahoma City.

15:14 We stayed in touch back and forth through that and I remember being so thrilled when you told me you were moving back to Tulsa, you know, I was born in 1990 from Texas and I've moved back in 93 from your in Oklahoma city was in Oklahoma City, right weren't you actually worked for Camp? I did I did that was my dream after I got out of college was to work for camp fire. So I work for Oklahoma City campfire for about 3 years and I got to I mean, I recruited and trained volunteer leaders and and staff a couple of geographic areas of the council and then in the summer, I got to be a certain day camp director, which was really fun. And then I also staffed the discovery Youth and got to work with Discovery cabinet and so forth. And so I just really had a blast doing all of that. But I also got to the point that I was ready to not have every evening and weekend committed to camp fire. So also my sister

16:14 Her first child, and so I wanted to be closer to home so I could be a part of my niece's life. And so I landed back in Tulsa couple yourself to you too. And that's kind of what brought me back to is my sister having having children, so

16:30 So then now we we both through the years we did things at Camp here and there and now we're both serving on the campfire bored. Well, and actually what brought me back, to the campfire was after moving moving back to Tulsa. I kind of got involved with other things and then miss Peggy who was our camp director that we'd stay in touch with who meant a lot to us when we were growing up in Camp Fire was diagnosed with cancer. Right and she didn't have a lot of family to take care of her her family lived out of out of state. And so I remember a group of us sexually the campfire folks that were close to Peggy growing up and then also her church friends.

17:15 Or a big part of take her husband her hair. She had her church friends there by day, but she really needed someone staying overnight. So we couldn't tag teamed overnights and that really brought us find us all spent together. They're sleeping sleeping bags back out in the air it out and would go spend the night at Miss Peggy's apartment while she and kind of her final days and then she ended up having to be in a hospice setting the last week or two of her life and we were all there together pretty consistently as much as we could be and I remember Levi coming up from Texas and you are singing some songs with her and Anna.

17:56 Just being there at the time she died. Yeah, it was kind of she really I don't think was she wanted to I guess kind of have us all together. She never died when any of us were there on a single watch with her? I remember we were all there together in her room singing a song to her and Campfire Song and cuz that's always a big part of campfires is singing and

18:21 We looked over there and she passed away. So.

18:26 And then I also remember that her at her memorial service her pastor gave us specific chunk of time to us to do whatever we wanted to do to remember her and Laura Carter put together a slideshow and we some of us were downs and we sang across the Stillness is late. It was so cool because she was so much a well.

18:51 She was very involved with her church. And I think pretty and become more involved with the church cuz she wasn't she retired from campfire and and her church life was a big part of her life, but then the kids that she'd helped raise your part of her life too. And it was really her memorial service which is so meaningful because it was her church family got to provide their things that were important to them and we were part of that as well. There's a really mix of diverse people at that church service switching made it made it really special and I remember the sand and their kids were scattered all over and I remember her nephew and niece telling us that they had gotten a sense of a whole different sense of who she was because they hadn't really known a lot about her professional life except for that. She was a camp director and then no idea what kind of impact she'd had on on people's lives. And so they got to see a different side of her through the way that we remembered her.

19:51 Exactly because I think well people just don't realize I am Peggy. I know she influenced both of us and our just our life and both having the desire to be a part of not-for-profits and work with a variety of people and yeah, it was really cool that our family could could see that so what would she say it how has campfire impacted you and and how does it make a difference in your life and who you become?

20:18 Oh, well, I always I always say that I probably wouldn't be where I am today and who I am today if it wasn't for campfire campfire did a lot of things as far as people like Peggy and mrs. Barnes who was one of the the core leaders and in the program when I was involved in it, they all had an impact in influencing me and believing in me and just always had the self-confidence that I could do whatever I wanted to do and I think for a child and use that was really important just like Peggy believing that I could be a lead arts and crafts at Camp when I was a freshman or sophomore in high school that the other thing is

21:03 Being a very involved camper has a different kind of you you are indifferent towards and being able to earn those Awards. One of them was called the Mohela which stands for work health and love which is kind of it's similar to what the eagle scout is for Boy Scouts and just being able to learn that in part of learning. That is I that I chose to do you get to pick different things you want to do to earn the award was to do some career exploration cuz I started working I bleed when I was either freshman or sophomore and so I was doing I really wasn't sure what I want to do. I thought I might want to be a vet but I also liked art therapy. I was one of those I just kind of Yin and Yang I liked art. But I also like science. I like the animals I like working with people. So I thought I want to be a vet because that's what my grandfather did but then I also liked art, which is what my dad did but he always said don't don't be an artist cuz it's hard to earn a living that way in. Mrs. Parker another role model and campfire introduced me to occupational therapy. I think there's about my junior year.

22:03 And said, you know this might be something you might be interested in an occupational therapy is just something people don't know about and so I did some exploring and decided that's what I want to do as a career and just meeting people today and meeting kids today meeting adults today that are in careers that they hate that they're miserable with and they just don't really enjoy so it work is just a day in day out think I kind of thing for them. I'm very thankful that campfire introduced me to a career that I still love and I'm passionate about so and I feel like I'm very I'm very fortunate for that because there's like it's there are very few people. I know.

22:45 That are as happy in the work that they do as I am. So I just I think that's a huge thing that can't part it for me. And what about you?

22:56 Well, you know, I think that the most formative thing about campfire for me with camp and I know that was really important to you as well. But what I figured out over time is that

23:10 In my family and in other places that I circulated.

23:17 I didn't always feel confident that I could eat out that I could accomplish the things that I wanted to accomplish but being a camp it was basically an all-female setting and so anything we were going to get done. We were the ones who were going to do it and you know learning to build fires and becoming confident that I could build a one-match fire and knowing that I could no cook all kinds of things and that I could lash in a clear Trail and things like that really made me feel independent and self-sufficient made me feel competent and then having so many young adults like our counselors and then older adult Role Models like Peggy that believed in us and and helped us to try new things and learn new skills was really really important to me and I think that that's what

24:11 Kosmios, I moved into adulthood to feel a lot more confident and capable and and then it also gave me the dream of wanting to work for campfire for a little while. I never set out to make that my career, but it was really my dream to work for campfire for a few years before I went to graduate school and I was you know got the opportunity to do that and that really was a wonderful time for me. And then I also explored a lot of things career-wise that weren't necessarily what I ended up doing but that I learned a lot from and I think one of the biggest learning experiences for me was doing the merchandising torchbearer with mrs. Barnes in The Supply Center and learning about stalking and taking inventory and sales and ads and the whole bit and I remember when I was a senior and you were Junior, I think mrs. Barnes and mrs. Parker took a group of people and we were among them to Kansas City.

25:11 Campfire National and see their merchandise area. We went down in the caves. Do you remember that? I do remember that I have pictures of that. Yeah, we got to go down into the case where they store things under Kansas City limestone cave since I had to see campfires catches uniforms and books and whatnot. Got to see the national headquarters and it's just a really fun trip. Well, I'm really got to see that. I mean we were so ingrained in our local campfire Association, but see that's a really a bigger Association in which was kind of neat because

25:45 It always felt like campfire wasn't as big in Tulsa, but actually in a lot of ways it was a we have a wonderful group of folks here in Tulsa, and it was nice just to see that we are part of a bigger bigger picture, right? So

26:00 Janna and just I know you said something you said triggered it help me. I just hit me that probably those things that they did. I mean the again encouraging us to do things probably is what's helped me become a risk-taker to in life, you know, if there's certain things I probably even find a business that I started a couple of businesses in my life and he no looking back. I'm sure I probably wouldn't have been willing to take that risk. If it hadn't been for campfire, you know even going back to remember going to floor Carter we used to take younger kids camping and we would each other groups. They would always be adults that would go there for the kids parents but it was always we were the Camp craft. We were the Camp people that their parents are me my parent. My mom was this why didn't really care that much or when did about the camp Stuff how to build a fire and all of that so we can go and teach the kid.

27:00 How to do that and probably gave us both so just that we both found that we enjoyed working with kids. Maybe not the little kids. I think you and I both like the older kids had in Italy but you know that again helped us kind of

27:16 Probably figure things out for us as far as what we're doing now is it called right so that we both ended up wanting to shape young professionals are students into young professionals and give them the passion for their job. So we have for ours and I think some of that comes from having been in Camp Fire and had adults that shaved us now. I just have a real strong Essex that I want to give back to the community that raised me and that comes really from having had so many adults invest so much in me when I was a teenager and a young adult. Oh, definitely. I mean I'm thinking you know, when we were talking about doing working with Peggy, you know, I'm doing that and after after she passed away one of the things we wanted to do was or she wanted and when donations came in was too kind of have a memorial created for her at camp.

28:16 Remember and that's kind of what got me re involved with campfire because

28:22 She needed a she wanted to Memorial. She wanted the contributions that were made in her name to go back to camp fire and working with the camp site director to figure out what would best remember Peggy at camp and then we had a memorial for her at camp and then actually that all happened the year that it was camps was at 50th birthday.

28:45 Are we actually had the

28:49 Memorial service for Peggy around it was right around then when it kiss 50th Anniversary was 1999 and I think that was the year. She died. I don't think we got her ashes back till the next you know, but we had a we had ice we had a memorial and we placed a memorial and some benches and something we decided that whatever we did it needed to be at a hot and move the because that's where we were closest to her and and near the Indian graveyard because people still hike out there, you know and and hang out at Tejas while they're visiting the graveyard so you and I went as I remember up to Sky took and looked we went went several places and looked at different things and decided on some concrete benches that look like they're made of native Stone but are very durable because we wanted something that somebody else wouldn't have to take care of cuz we know that it takes a lot to maintain things at Camp. So right so there's three bin out there and a plaque in Peggy's on her and then a year later when Peggy died, you know, she

29:49 Donated her body to Medical Science. And so it went to OSU college of medicine and then ask her the medical students were finished with that. It was it was she was cremated and the cremains came back and the following year. I think it was over Memorial Day weekend. We invited her family up from Texas and we gathered at camp and did a memorial and Inspire ashes which was which was special. Yeah, it was well and then because of that I remember I get they were since they were having the kind of the 50th Anniversary. They asked if I'd be a part of being on the alarm committee, they are creating a loan committee. So we served on that did some neat things. I remember we cut out little things that people can take when they came to camp in honor of the 50th anniversary and then

30:42 I got a started serving on The Campaign Committee and you became the board member and then he chaired the committee next some of you guys up that we're coming back into town to be on the camping committee. And and again, I think we both at that point in our life. I know I did needed to get back to camp fire after all of that. And I definitely now serve on the board and get to see it from an adult's perspective. Right? Right. So which is been nice to yeah. I'm really glad to to get to give back to camp fire into to see you know, you and I and and there's two others of his Penny and Theresa were all in campfire in the same era and so we get to see each other every month in and do the work of camp fire at the same time and still cut up and have fun at the meeting so well and then your you or when you were in Camp Fire you all with your group was young.

31:42 Country sells the Misfits. She didn't have a group within your high school. And so Phyllis Raines was your leader and now she is also saw a person talk about a person of many generations. Yeah, she was served as your leader and she served as her daughter's litter who is a few years older and now she still serves still on the board on board and is always leading the board and always doing things to try to help raise money and make him far better a better better thing for kids. So they spend a huge influence on me as well. And I've always been grateful for her pulling us together as a group and being willing to lead us and also just for a friendship through the year, so definitely she's just an amazing woman.

32:33 So I'd like to ask a couple questions. I don't mind all the way back to the beginning about.

32:44 The camp Scott murders started you guys into everything that I catch preceded. What were they sure? We did actually both been Campers at Wally Healy already and the Girl Scout camp. That was parallel. That was for our age group was Camp Scott in it was in Locust Grove, which was about an hour 20 30 minute drive from camp. And what happened was in June of 1977 on the very first night of camp for their camp three girls wear in a platform tent and they were taken from their tent and were brutally murdered and that was an event that That Shook not only the Girl Scouts but certainly can't fire as well cuz we were the closest all female camp.

33:44 The nation that would have just a local thing. It was it was all over National knew it was it was and so what happened was Girl Scouts. I believe just canceled can't for the rest of the summer but and can't fire the board took immediate action. We didn't have any kids in Camp. It was the night before our first night of Camp. So the board had an emergency meeting and decided to put armed security in place for our camp for that summer and then make a plan in between. And so that's how we ended up with armed security guards driving around camp and that actually continued for quite a few more years having armed security guards in Camp, but for 4 10th unit the platform tent unit Tejas that we mentioned was designed similarly to Camp Scott. So they put a security guard specifically in our unit. So we had secured.

34:44 And it really felt I think more uncomfortable for us and it would have been to have no security but it alleviated our parents fears in the board of directors fears and so forth. But anyway, what ended up happening with the Girl Scout murders is that there was it happen if there was a man who was already convicted of rape and was an escapee from the Oklahoma Penitentiary who was in the area and the Mayes County Sheriff was up for re-election. So he stays one of the largest manhunts in history trying to find this guy. His name was Jean Lori Hart, and he was finally recaptured and he was reading prison too because of his prior conviction, but on the the the

35:31 The murder the murderer, what's it called indictment? He was he was not convicted. He was acquitted and he subsequently died in prison not long after so it's never really clear exactly what happened, but it was a certainly a tragic event that shaped all of us.

35:50 Another question, I would ask you guys then just going to the different camps and have many experiences that you've had.

35:56 The story of something just kind of pivotal that changed when you guys talked about moments where someone believed in you and knew you were a leader or have you ever been. Can you remember a moment and being in Tampa you turned around? So wow, this is something that you know, I never conceived myself being able to do or in or even though breathtaking sight that you seen in nature as opposed to and what some of your friends may have experienced during that same period of time when they didn't go to camp

36:27 Well, you know that's a hard one because there's just so many things but there's always just going walking in the morning. There was a place called Pilot Point and it was just a cliff that Overlook the lake and I remember I was at that point doing a lot of reading and I'll get up a lot before the kids and I'd go run and just remember just being out in nature on PowerPoint and just taking the time to reflect on my days and those are always real kind of special times for me.

36:59 Man camp Camp wishes to mix of having fun. You know Liz who we've talked about Liz and I always were trying to do things to kind of get into trouble. I'm in breast just always I don't know being goofy being goofy and and just having fun in and Julie always tend to be a little more serious when we get upset with us cuz we'd sometimes do stupid things but we survived it and those adults that would see us through the stupid thing still loved us in spite of the stupid things. We were doing like driving through camp in the back of a pickup and jumping out of the back of the pickup running around the corner and then jumping out and scaring the people that were in the pickup. So, you know, you know, it's just a mix of having fun and then the believing in us and I think even doing the Arts and Crafts being a leader in that help me shape me as far as wanting to be a therapist today doing something cuz occupational therapies are real. It's people-oriented, but it's creative. It's rehab it's medical at

37:59 Party, so I think that shaped me as far as that goes. You know, I think one moment that that stands out to me is when we were on our ill-fated sales trip and those of us who landed on The Sandbar I think it was three boats and I think there were about a dozen of us or so and we circled up and we made sure everyone was accounted for and it occurred to me that I was the oldest one there. And even though I wasn't staff that I was kind of default the leader or a leader and the first thing that we did was with circle up and and pray for our safety and for everyone else's safety and I think that I didn't really see myself as any kind of spiritual leader at that point, but I think that was a moment in which I felt

38:51 I felt called if you will to step into a spiritual leadership role that I have subsequently grown into as an adult and and feel more comfortable with now and I didn't really think of it at the time as a life-changing moment. But I've gone back to that a number of times and thought you know, that's interesting that that's the first thing I I thought to do.

39:14 I can see that.

39:16 What words of wisdom or advice to you guys have for someone?

39:21 In high school age who is

39:25 Kind of on the border line in high school interested in going to camp but not necessarily completely sure if they should maybe it's a peer pressure thing or something. That's kind of holding the Mac.

39:39 I say go for it. Yeah, I mean I've made so many lifelong friends and and there's so much fun to be had and even if it seems like it's not the cool thing to do getting away and getting to the woods just put you in a space. We can have a different kind of life it does and I mean it is still for me today. That is a way I relax is to go camping and it's just yeah it

40:04 It's Rejuvenation juvenate in this to go off into the woods and then go off into the woods with other people that are free and make friends and you know, Julie and I didn't go to HighSchool together. We can go to college and clothes together. We wouldn't be friends if we hadn't gone to camp together. All right or so, but I just encourage anybody to to try to get involved find a camp find a program if I'm a Bird high school. I did a paper is on being a part of Youth Development programs and just do as a paper for 10th grade or 12th grade English or something and just I think being a part of a youth program that gives you some structure has those adult Role Models because I don't even think we would have been a part of Camp if it hadn't been for campfire, right so finding a place where there are adults are invested in you you can't go wrong that it was just really important that encourage you to think on your own try news.

41:04 Things take risks. Don't these adults never told us how to think they just supported us and supported us and the crew and loved us no matter what we did exactly. So, thanks.