Lois Haggard and Paul Leo

00:03 Hi, my name is Paul Leo. I'm 62 years old. Today is January 27th, 2013 wear and Santa Fe, New Mexico, and I'm with my wife Louis Haggard.

00:19 Hi, my name is Lois higerd. I am 58 years old is getting harder and harder to remember. It's January 27th, 2013. Where in Santa Fe New Mexico and I'm here with Paul Leo my husband.

00:40 Okay, so let's get started. This is kind of a funny question to start with because it seems kind of egotistical but what do you love most about me? Well, there's we only have 40 minutes. So I don't know I really think

01:02 I just love your approach to life. You're just really accepting it whatever life throws at you and you're not resigned to it, but you accept it and then you go to work and deal with it or look at it from all angles, and I just

01:22 I've just really love to watch you.

01:27 Just be accepting without just being without being resigned to it. I mean, that's that's one of the things.

01:37 Well, somebody told me a long time ago and I think it was good advice that if you look at obstacles as challenges, it's it's just a lot more healthy way to exist.

01:49 Yeah, I think that that comment the way I interpreted is it kind of is a manifestation of my trying to see life obstacles as challenges go for it very much song.

02:06 Free apps

02:09 I think sometimes I well I'm learning to do that more but I don't know that I do that.

02:17 So I'll

02:19 What's one of the things you love about me aside from that you take care of the cars and you're very practical a very practical dresser. I love.

02:36 That you're very honest and forthright.

02:41 And we're both very honest with each other and and I really appreciate that and I love that you have a sense of adventure and you're not afraid to risk and even though you're very hard-working. You're also very playful and childish sometimes and I just love that that's good. I certainly am childish and enjoy. Enjoy not growing up honesty is I think important to both of us and

03:15 It's a nice.

03:19 Nice tenant

03:21 Probably I require tenant to build a good relationship long lasting relationship.

03:30 So what do you think is at the heart of our successful relationship? I think it's fair to say we have a successful relationship. Yeah, I think so quite a while. Can we say how many years can we remember at least 25?

04:01 Well aside from aside from honesty, but I think the other.

04:12 There's many but one of the other things is to be open with with your partner to also when you communicate with your partner to.

04:28 Make sure you listen, maybe listen more than talk and acknowledge. What what what what the other partner says I am.

04:42 I think it's real important least for me. It's important for me to

04:51 You know have

04:53 Have you acknowledge what I say? And I also think it's important that I do the same to you.

05:01 Yeah, and of course, I think you're you're addressing. You know, what?

05:07 How to get over the how should I say this when when were arguing or in an emotional state?

05:19 You know, I think what the thing that makes for a successful relationship with us as is, you know, there are some really mundane things like we're both pretty good with money and we have similar interests and yada yada.

05:36 But yeah, I think the the hard things are what do you how do you behave when you're in an emotional snit?

05:46 Yeah, and I think that in a wee wee in a we've been together 27 years. We've had a few emotional Schnitzer than our past fortunately they're much less frequent than they were the first couple years of our relationship.

06:02 But um, yeah, I think you're right. I think when things start heating up you have to acknowledge and listen to the other person and that's really hard because when you're in an emotional snit, you're feeling emotions.

06:16 And they're very real and it's really hard to be rational. But I think we've you know, it's just something that that successful couples need to learn unless they really like the roller coaster which we decided long ago. We did it.

06:34 Yeah, I have a I have a thought about that emotional. I call it emotional literacy that we all have emotions and emotions are very real the real when they're happening and there they can be intense when they're happening, but I think one of the

07:00 Things that people learn over the course of a lifetime

07:05 If they have achieved any happiness at all, they they have learned how to interpret and act on their emotions and I called that emotional literacy. I don't know. I know that's a term that's out there on the internet and what not. But that's what it means to me is that you know, I've I've suffered from depression in my life and when I get when I've been depressed fortunately, I don't get depressed anymore because I'm on a good medication.

07:37 But in the past when I was depressed.

07:41 The emotion was very very real and at first I didn't understand it and I thought as I think most people do that are.

07:51 Still forming most informed individuals. They think when they have an emotion, it's caused by something outside themselves. And so when it's a negative emotion, they lash out at the environment and blame other people for their sadness or or anger and I'm angry because you did this or that or I'm angry because of you know, whatever happened at work.

08:18 And so my my thought about emotional literacy is that it's really I think it's really one of the key things that people need to learn to be successful. And I think it's probably the number one most overlooked thing in society. I think.

08:41 Many are there a lot of successful people who don't have emotional literacy, but maybe they don't get depressed.

08:49 So, you know, they just they just kind of Forge ahead. So.

08:54 When you say that.

08:57 I may be missing it but something to the effect of understanding your emotions, so, you know what the emotions specially if they're hanger and stuff like that. That's what's happening. There's not really much of a cognitive component. Is it is that what you're getting at? I mean kind of look it has separation between there are emotional.

09:25 Reality and are rational cognitive reality and I guess I'm just saying that you know, one of the things I've had to learn and I I really believe I'm not alone in the world is how to interpret my emotions and of course, you know, I'm I'm talking mostly about negative emotions fear and anger primarily that

09:51 That

09:53 I think all of us experience fear, you know, maybe everyday or are you know in the workplace? We encounter things that they are threatening, you know going to a meeting or someone challenging is challenging us or or you know, putting something in print is it, you know, it's kind of anxiety provoking so fear anxiety anger all the negative stuff.

10:20 I think

10:22 When you have those emotions, it's important.

10:26 2

10:28 Be objective and what I mean by that is to step out of your emotional reality and objectify yourself. Look at yourself as okay.

10:40 There's Louis.

10:42 She's feeling XYZ. What should she do right now? And why how should she interpret this? And what should she do about it? And it went said of just acting the way your emotions are are suggesting would be appropriate are driving you to get that that's what I brought up cognitive. I just I didn't mean

11:08 Well what I'm just I guess I'm agreeing with what you're saying. Yes step back. Try to see what's happening around. You not let the negative emotion take you over her over take you so there was this this book that I think we both read back in our are striving youth striving to be striving to understand driving striving to understand Buddhism a little bit and then book has a really corny title. It was handbook to higher consciousness.

11:45 And one of the

11:50 Vignettes are analogies that the author used was that a man was in driving home from work in traffic and he looks and drug, go through an intersection and there's been an accident and he sees that there's a pedestrian who's been hit and then he sees that The Pedestrian is his son and he stops his car and he rushes out of the car and pick the boy up off the ground. Well, that's what your emotions that's what his emotions told him to do, but it's not the best thing in a situation because the boy could have spinal injuries and he could have just paralyzed the kid it so it you know, that's the way you have to

12:34 Those negative emotions of fear and anger anxiety. You have to think in what's going on? And how should I behave you have to put the objective spin on it?

12:46 So you kind of

12:50 You have to be present in those situations. It's really.

12:57 Changing it a little bit.

13:02 Oh one more thing before we leave this topic that this is why teenagers should not get pregnant.

13:08 Cuz they have zero emotional literacy and they're just going to behave.

13:17 To their little babies in their little children and they really need to mature and and gain some emotional literacy that's you know, a side from it affecting their lives and and and have a great impact on their progress as human beings and their contribution to society what they're going to do to their kids.

13:38 By just behaving

13:41 Anyway, well you're so baby. Just just you're just saying good. That's it would be helpful to have a little more understanding of your emotions before you start bringing other people into this world, and I was just going to talk about being present I use this.

14:03 Experienced a lot and that's

14:07 Rock climbing. I'm I'm never I'm not a good rock climber, but if you ever want to know what the feeling of presence is, like.

14:18 Go rope up and get on up and get on a you know, where the instructor if your hand start and start climbing and you just you just realize that you're

14:40 It's really sad to be in the moment because all your all your attention is right on.

14:49 Where are you at right now? And what's the next move? I'm going to make to go out. How do I keep from killing myself a little more excitement as opposed to how about you? No good, right.

15:18 So what do you want for us? You know where we've had we're having careers were still working.

15:27 And pretty soon. We're going to want to retire. What are your hopes for us in retirement. The first one is I hope I retire house paid off and retire so we discuss this a little I think much of it is to continue.

15:56 Doing some of the same things were doing now as opposed to.

16:02 Being Physically Active hiking as much as we can taking our dogs for walks volunteering. I'd like to continue to do that.

16:14 Maybe travel. I'd like to go to Italy.

16:22 My parents are from Italy Italy has a great food tradition and it's different all over the place and I think it would be

16:35 Fun to sample the different Cuisines. Maybe like you said even take a cooking course there.

16:45 How about you?

16:49 Well, I also share your hope that we can retire eventually.

16:58 And I want to keep doing a lot of the things we've been doing. I want to continue to contribute in some way where there were volunteering or you know working.

17:12 At a job that

17:16 I don't want to say we don't really care about her. I don't really care about but you know that I don't need to depend on so I can do what I want and not have to worry about.

17:25 The income bring home the bacon right bringing home the dog eat kibble.

17:35 I want

17:38 Us-2

17:45 I want us to be happy and healthy.

17:48 I think we've we've been pretty lucky and with our health.

17:56 And and I don't I don't feel lucky with happiness because I think that we make our own happiness, but I want to continue to do I want to continue to have Adventure.

18:13 One of the things I like about you is that you're willing to take risks and have adventures and I want to continue to have that that rich stimulus of doing new things and whether it's travel and and my dream vacation would be going to Europe.

18:37 And riding a bicycle from town to town where each town is waiting a cooking class for us in East Town of cooking classes waiting for it. So I I I agree I think learning to cook in a European tradition, that would be just a riot and I don't know why I'm not attracted to you know that the Far East China or Japan or

19:05 You know it but it's but just know it probably my own my own background my mom be in German and my dad being english-irish / Danish whatever, you know, that that just appeals to me.

19:24 But of course the longer we wait the older will be and the flatter the terrain will have to be if we're going to ride by right. Otherwise, we'll have to use public transportation to keep the bikes with us for just right in the flat spots. Yeah. Yeah, I like that.

19:45 Well in the last two or three years we thought we were also taken up painting and that's been a lot of fun and you're way more creative than I am.

19:58 I'm I'm a probably a little more left-brained than you. Hello a few few listen to you. Talk year.

20:06 Quite good at being left brain and I am I've always admired different heart, but I just never thought that I would be able to do it and we're lucky in santafe to to find some to find a great teacher and it's just been a wonderful experience learning how to paint and express ourselves in our own ways. I agree.

20:32 Do you think that's part of the appeal of Santa Fe in the first place? I mean, we we moved here five years ago. We won't had wanted to retire here but when a job came up we moved here before we retired but then we had always kind of had this in our sights to think that the art scene is was always part of the appeal. Yeah, it's it's just that

21:01 It's just a great place to experience, you know, different aspects of our and taking part in it is is another is another piece of that but I don't know Santa Fe as is.

21:16 In addition to that there's an awful lot of other killing aspects. It's really Multicultural.

21:28 That thing that the Spanish influence the Native American in the couple on people's it's really rich in that type of

21:45 Experience. So sometimes you know, we can we don't need to travel to Europe. There's just tons of stuff to discover here. I agree.

22:00 I agree.

22:02 So I am looking forward to the discontinuing to experience what Santa Fe New Mexico has to offer to remind me of our our friend Michael Burt who said living in Santa Fe is as close as you can get to living outside of the country without having to live outside the country without having to live outside of America. It is kind of unique it is

22:34 And we've been lucky it seems like the people here are just for the most part pretty open and pretty accepting which is another great dumb pretty liberal place not I think one of the nice things about it is it's so different from Salt Lake City where we came from. Yeah, but it's an island.

22:59 Have liberal, Miss.

23:03 But I like it anyway.

23:08 Is there anything else you want to ask me?

23:23 Have you thought about this one?

23:29 Your favorite memory

23:33 If there's one thing you want to remember forever.

23:37 Is there any one thing that that pops out from here either our life together or your life?

23:46 In general

23:48 I'm going to

23:50 Pass on that right now and just turn it around and ask if you have

23:56 A favorite memory. I have a

24:02 Magic Moment, what are they call it? There's a word for that. I can't think of the word. There's a phrase, you know a Transcendent moment that I will

24:15 I knew it when I was having it and

24:19 When I was living it and I've always tried to remember it really clearly, but we were on the

24:26 Colorado River in the Grand Canyon we were in we were together in a in a river trip with a private party.

24:35 There were just two rafts. I think nine people maybe.

24:39 And you know when you're when you camp in the on the river you have to set up a a toilet.

24:48 Out of sight of camp

24:52 And they call it the groover for

24:56 May be obvious and she's entitled anyway, so

25:01 The Groover was set up, you know around the corner behind, you know over a arise or whatever and I was sitting on the Groover.

25:13 But the I don't think that's as relevant as it is that I was totally alone.

25:21 I was it was, you know, I had total privacy.

25:26 I couldn't see anyone. I couldn't hear anyone was early morning and I was there with the river flowing by and it's boy. It's a big.

25:38 Mighty River the Colorado down there in the Grand Canyon

25:44 And I looked across the river and you know the light and it was raking light because the sun was just coming up and it hadn't reached my side of the canyon yet, but it was it was coming down the other side of the canyon and lit by the sun on the other side of the canyon were two bighorn sheep two males and they had encountered each other and they started to I don't know what you'll get what the technical term is for it. They were butting heads and also they were they were across the canyon.

26:21 I don't know. How far is that a hundred feet Maybe?

26:25 And

26:27 They had no awareness that I was there and they were doing that that that thing where they just charged each other and crack their their skulls would crack and it was echoing in the canyon and it was just I don't know it was just Transcendent. It is just such a you know mundane thing from for some people, but it was just it was just an amazing experience and a memory that I never want to forget a good one. Yeah a great one.

26:59 Yeah, I'm sure if you thought it said be Bunches of those.

27:09 Just wondering I was younger before I met you.

27:12 You know, I like to ski and had a bunch of friends that would ski back east and one day we decided they were going to take a trip to tuckerman's Ravine which is

27:24 On Mount Washington and it's this

27:30 Very steep headwall

27:33 And you hike up?

27:37 I'm with skis on your back or whatever and you

27:42 This is the way we did it, but it wasn't enough snow to come over to the head while I'm I was probably good for me because I'm I not be around but

27:53 It's it's a yes. It's a really steep bowl and

28:00 Your your sense of what's vertical and what's horizontal is totally thrown off and then N I used to say.

28:10 Something about

28:14 Just a different having a different sense of reality.

28:21 But I just remember the

28:25 The experience of climbing up that had wall one foot in front of the other and watching people ski down.

28:35 So what's ahead wall? Is that inside the bowl inside the bowl?

28:41 So you start from the bottom and you climb up. Like I said, there wasn't enough snow to come off the top and go in the mall. So you climb up until it's has as far as you want to go and see if enough for you and then you put your skis on in.

28:56 Hopefully, you know you're ready to you ready to go downhill before you slip and slide sounds like a great experience. And how'd you do?

29:10 But I did fine. I mean I'm known for my faults, but that was that day. I did find that sounds wonderful.

29:26 Okay. Well I

29:33 How did we meet?

29:35 We were we had a mutual friend. We were

29:40 Let's see Paul was in graduate school in the sociology Department University of Utah at the University of Utah and our mutual friend Carol, Katie.

29:51 Who was the secretary there in the sociology department and I wasn't back in school. Then. I took a long Hiatus from college.

30:03 And was working.

30:07 I can't even remember where I was working at the time.

30:13 Oddly I can't but

30:18 Carol introduced us she said there's this guy in the sociology Department you have to meet so she invited me to a sociology Department graduate school graduate program party holiday party or something.

30:36 Remember seeing me at that party. Yeah. Oh, yeah, and what did you think of me?

30:44 Not much.

30:52 I don't remember having you know thoughts either way. Well, I mean I was the plant and I was there to scoping you out not have a specific memory, but I do and you were you were there. I think you are.

31:12 I think you had a suit jacket on which I thought was kind of formal.

31:18 And bring in, Ohio.

31:29 Aw shucks. Yeah.

31:36 What else?

31:42 All right. Well, is there anything else that you want to add to this interview that you haven't said yet?

31:52 Oh, I think I'm a

31:56 I'm pretty much talked out. I think maybe me too but I really appreciate the opportunity and your willingness to do this with me or it was great, but I had a good time on it and thank you and thank storycorps story Corps.

32:20 Over and out