Ann Conn and Jan Doty

00:03 Hello, my name is Jan Doty. I'm 63 years old today is March 25th, 2015. We are located in New Orleans, Louisiana, and I'm here with my very good friend. I'm Doctor Ancon. I'm 51 years old.

00:21 So Ann what brings you here today? What story would you like to tell I would like to tell the story of the death of my two sons.

00:30 Pretty heavy topic, but I'm glad that you want to share it. So the story can be made known to others especially may be suffering with the same disease that your son's had. Can you tell me more about that? Crack both? My son suffered from bipolar disorder today is actually the month anniversary of the death of my son Austin. He died February 25th of 2015 and Colin died, May 20th of 2014 on both after a very difficult long battle with bipolar disorder.

01:06 For those people that don't really know anything about bipolar disorder. Could you give a

01:12 Accurate yet brief description of what bipolar disorder is that bipolar disorder is a mood disorder and it has its characterize rat has both depressions and X moods involving excess energy called manias.

01:32 And I know there different types and your son's suffered from a particular type, right? There are basically two types of bipolar bipolar type 2, which is usually less severe bipolar type one and some people that have bipolar actually become psychotic and begin hallucinating and lose touch with reality. Not everybody that has bipolar has that problem, but both of my sons did

02:00 And can you tell me a little bit of what kind of help is out there for that and and what type of treatment and just ate educate the public a little bit cuz I know that's what you're trying to do. Right? I think it's important that we talk openly about these things to help decrease the stigma of mental illness and these are terrible illnesses caused. My son's died of a truly terrible illness and unfortunately, their form was difficult to treat. I don't want that to take hope away from other people because many people do respond to medicines and do well we were unfortunate.

02:39 And that that wasn't how it went for us, but you know people if somebody is having a lot of mood swings, I certainly need to seek psychiatric care to try to get a diagnosis and there are medicines that are effective for many people for these illnesses. I'm they typically also need therapy and family support and many people can do well with the and isn't it true that it typically presents and young adulthood late teens young adulthood and maybe what are some signs and symptoms people should be on the lookout for because I think typically it takes a while for people to even get a diagnosis right? It's pretty typical that people have difficulty getting a diagnosis classically the disease happened in the late teens and early twenties all that. My older son. Austin really became ill at 27 which is a little late but as with everything in Madison their exceptions, and some people can have bipolar disorder as you

03:39 Children and some people can really have the onset much later on in life.

03:46 Most typically

03:49 People have depressions first and they may have a series of depressions before the episodes of excess energy occur. So they're often diagnosis depression and other other ways. The diagnosis is it made his people come for help whenever they're depressed not when they're in the man after the excess energy face because that feels very good for a lot of people and then they're not questioned about the episodes of excess energy and they're treated for depression instead of bipolar disorder, but I think that there's been a lot of Education within mental health care to try to help keep from missing those diagnosis, but the disease involves

04:33 And individuals and it can get better, and fortunately sometimes it gets worse. But initially it can be difficult to make the diagnosis and require some observation.

04:45 Can you tell us a little bit about you as a mother?

04:51 How you prepared for what you needed to do being a mother and just also every other role you played with your son's hair long process and there's a family history of bipolar illness in the family and it's a highly hereditary disease that medical science of trying to understand better. There's not just one gene has multiple genes. We're trying to have the family's DNA looked at at Johns Hopkins at this time to try to contribute to our understanding of genetics of a disease better that I knew there was a family history of the illness and then when my young son my younger son, when he was in high school I suspected he had bipolar II because I saw him have depression and then I saw him have too much energy and I was hoping it would just be mild.

05:46 And he didn't really have significant problems in high school. He really didn't become very ill until 20 when he was at LSU that I had suspected it just because I was I've been educated both in my medical training and because I knew about the family history of the illness, so I suspected it talk to him. I mean he had gone to care a lot of young men don't want to lie because I don't want to go to the doctor. If you don't get all of it. I get nervous about going to the psychiatrist that he was fine with going but it wasn't clear that that's what the problem was for a while.

06:29 I'm down. Then he in August of 2010 is when he really got too stressed for the first time and I knew something was terribly wrong with him and he was complaining but he didn't I thought he was in a depression.

06:48 I didn't realize he was having hallucinations at that time and he didn't share that with me until December of 2010 and that in itself was a huge learning experience for me personally just on every level and that's when he was first hospitalized was in December of 2010.

07:10 When you say energy increased energy in high school a lot of teenage boys have energy like can you be a little clearer? That's a great question and it is hard to explain. I was just looking for it. Okay? Okay. I thought he was just over excitable and that it really is subjective and that makes it hard because it's an excitable time in life for a lot of reasons, but I thought bipolar could have irritability with it and I thought he was irritable sometimes in a way that would concern to me and then he clearly have gotten had a depression and so I was watching him and its saddle. It wasn't at that time what it became, which was a full-blown Mania he had later multiple times.

07:58 Is there anything since the public is not as knowledgeable as a mental health professional or are you being a physician and a neurologist in particular? Is there anything specifically you could educate the public going as in so far as signs or symptoms while when people get depressions that need to be going going to the doctor and he did go in. Okay, and he was diagnosed as depression at that time and he took any depressants but he got off pretty quick said he didn't like the way they filled and they did really work for him which later made perfect sense because any depressants often are not used at all them bipolar. Are you very very carefully. We're really lucky that it didn't push him into a maniac because that can happen. But yeah, when people are depressed they need to go into care and talk to their doctors weather there at any age in life and just get the ball started. Okay, and I guess I don't mean to pick but what do you call depressed like teenagers are Moody?

08:58 Teenagers are irritable and teenagers have bad days and their emotions are all over the place and some of their days are highly exaggerated. So, can you just give us be a little more specific it's hard. It is hard. It is to write it is hard because they are I mean all of us are

09:18 Pretty excitable at that time. I mean and it can be hard when they actually complain after crashing and some of them do and he did complain and it lasted doesn't ever subside how it didn't last that long for him. But when a person complains that significant token especially teenage especially if it's with their complaining or sometimes the person's oversleeping overeating or under-eating they are fighting with your friends. Okay, but just like you said, this is tricky because teenagehood is a challenge for the teenagers and the parents.

09:55 Yeah, how has your role is a physician helped you hurt you made an impact on your understanding of your your son's illness has it helped me and hurt me. Okay, it helped me because when Collin came home from summer school in Europe, and he just what did initially satin I'm not myself and I didn't really understand that but he was so he seemed agitated to me and he seemed desperate and I didn't understand where that agitation in desperation is coming from but I got my attention and I was talking to him like everyday and he had shifted to a different point in this life. I was trying to get him to go to Psychiatry and he refused to go and that was scary for me. So I was talking to him everyday cuz I knew he was in trouble. I thought it was a depression.

10:45 And so when he called me on the phone was that it was during finals of December 2010 and he just said come get me I can't take this anymore. I need to be isolated. That's pretty much what he said. Oh, I knew it was serious. I knew he was in deep deep trouble. And as soon as I got there and I saw him and he couldn't he didn't even really tell me much but just the way he looked in the way he was agitated. I knew he was in very serious trouble and I had a colleague that I called I was a sect that was a psychiatrist that agreed to see in that day and I was horrified and terrified and it's really hard to know what to do and I knew what to do when I was having trouble doing it cuz I ain't but I mean fortunately I was able to do it and he would write it he wanted to have help and the doctor help us arranged to go to McLean Hospital in Boston, which we did and he received excellent care.

11:43 That so how did it help meet help me cuz I recognize a series of the situation and knew how to act. Okay, and then later on as the illness got worse and did not respond to treatment it helped me because I understood how horribly ill he was and this is before Austin became ill and I knew that he could die. I understood what was happening and it helped me because I knew how to make actions, but it was horrifying.

12:16 It was it was really hard to live with emotionally and ultimately I had to take a lot of action spell to handle that because I came to a point at 2 years before he died where I just saw how sick he was and I read this book called night falls fast by Kay Redfield Jamison. She's written a lot on bipolar disorder and has bipolar disorder herself. Now after I read that book on suicide, and sounded just like this case that she described and I really got too stressed because I just started to seriously think and he may not make it there's a good chance. He's not going to make it and I had that was a major turning point in my life.

12:58 And what helps you the most at that point we shared some things with me that I think would be a benefit to others. Well, that was a major turning point because I knew that he could die. There's nothing I could do about it.

13:13 And that's hard to face. And I mean I just was struggling with irony. I'm at my God. I said the other people last night.

13:22 He can die and ever at that point every time I would really think about him dying. It was just intolerable to me. I would like stop and panic and I just started telling myself. I got to do something about this. I need to learn to live with this bad or I got to do something because he really can die and I need to prepare myself and that's when I went to spiritual counseling and it helped me immensely because

13:51 You know what happened is I just started praying and It Dummy. Always prayed and meditated a lot and that's helped me immensely.

13:59 For many years that I started really praying like let go and let God and I knew when I was praying like God it didn't mean that God was going to keep him from dying and I knew that I had to base Myspace.

14:15 Not a whether my son was alive or not and that sounds so simple, but it's incredibly difficult. It's a huge leap instead of just the word. You actually had to live it while I didn't have to but I wanted to I wanted to because I couldn't tolerate what I thought could happen and ultimately did happen and I needed to find a way to tolerate it. And I mean I understood it enough.

14:41 Enough being a physician that part wasn't that hard for me understood how terribly ill he was but it was lit the living with a part and I just had to find a way to start.

14:59 Facing my face

15:02 I'm kind of unconditional Faith wear.

15:07 My face would be okay if my son wasn't a wife and it really took me about

15:14 I mean, well, I'm still doing it. I haven't had a loss of faith and both of them have died. Going to go tomorrow.

15:27 Just spiritual counseling and 10th spiritual counseling and prayer helped me transform my faith and belief system to be able to handle the death of one and then my other child.

15:42 Tell me what you shared with me about Ellen on I hadn't thought of Al-Anon and that way before but it really

15:52 Yes. For counseling really helped me a lot and I saw a lot of different types of spiritual counseling.

16:02 And it's not just listening on needs to practice and it's a continual practice and I'm practicing as hard as I can right now because I think if I didn't continue that I could still have difficulties and of course I had difficulty serving another friend.

16:29 It's I totally understand your medical knowledge and background and being able to understand the disease process but being able to watch faith in motion and you actually having to live your face where others talked about it and never having to like really actually do it. I just think that's so important for people to know that they with anything in life. But especially something as great as this that that would probably be very very helpful to get to a point where where you surrendered somewhat right? I got kidnapped though. I wouldn't have done it on my own I couldn't have I mean this kind of pressure forced me into it mean I didn't have a choice because the disease process went on regardless and it what is the analogy is people get leukemia. They go to MD Anderson the best leukemia.

17:29 Turn on the world and they get the best treatment of world and some of them. Survive and that's exactly what happened to both my children because they were treated at the best hospitals in the world. I spent so much money.

17:42 I'm thankful. I spent the money even though it was really hard because I knew I did the best I could for them and they got the best there was but also now it gives me peace because I left no stone unturned. Right and I was there with the for them.

17:59 To help with their treatment and psychologically is virtually every moment and not continually told him that no matter what I wouldn't leave them and they knew I wouldn't and I didn't know one thing you shared with me which was probably would probably would be very helpful the time. You said that you weren't interrogating your son, but you were like us you just were there are presents for him which made him want to open up and share things with you. I found that that was would be really helpful for this to hear that you are always available and they're right and it made them more open to tell you what was going on. And therefore you could help them a lot better. Well, that's true. And that's been those have been new skills and a certain kind of way because I mean the inclination is to

18:50 Just ask him everyday. Are you okay, you're thinking about killing yourself and that's not helpful Behavior. Okay, so I had to keep on telling myself my anxieties not their problem is my problem and it is it still is and it always will and then I did get some hints from the doctors that really helped me to is don't count them all the time with what's going on. And then I mean really when my when calling first told me he got out of the hospital at Boston, you know, Anne McClain before he went to minegar's he told me that he was just thinking about killing himself and what it was like,

19:33 And I could barely stay in the chair and listen to it. Ok. The only reason that I was able to stay calm and not be totally reactive and just stopped him in his tracks and say I don't know how could you feel like that or I'm devastated you felt like that or either anything. I think it's because of him that I had from the doctors and also my medical training having listened to so many people. I just dropped at Playa to him if he can tell me this and I'm sitting here sweating just hear the story with my heart beating the least I can do is listen actually is most important thing I can do is to listen to because a person I lonely and I can only imagine how alone they feel when they are know that they're sick and they're hallucinating they're scared and I want to kill himself.

20:20 What do you mean what else can you do but truly offer your soul in love to listen to the person and so

20:26 Divided that gift for him and it's going to snow in Austin and it allowed both of them to feel to feel open enough to share more with you and and to give them the gift of your presence in your listening and you're just being there for them. And I'm sure they felt that his love, you know, instead of instead of like you said people automatically sort of get defensive when they become questioned and

20:51 So that was a beautiful gift that you gave them a gift to myself to yourself to because it helps me feel more peaceful now and I stayed and the more they told me it helped them a course and it took a lot of self-discipline for me to do it, but it's helps me now because it's not a mystery to me what has happened. So many people have a family member died of suicide and they don't understand what has happened. I do understand what happened. They didn't respond to anything. Both of them had the best treatment.

21:28 And continued with these manias and the hallucinating. It's called a psychotic Mania really unabated basically and wouldn't want to Collins major incidents. He had his lithium his medicines were appropriate and everything and

21:49 I feel more peaceful because I was I knew I was there I was there and I know what happened. I don't like it. It hurts me terribly but I understand it. Is there anything that you could share with others that helped you to survive the process of how could you find any stability and peace and during the process and now yeah, I don't know that I had Peace during the process. I mean, I think I had stability in that.

22:21 I mean I behaved in a supported manner. I mean tactically I always

22:28 Organize their care brought them to the UK or when they were in the hospital, which was especially Austin was in the hospital a long time to multiple hospitalizations mean I always visited but I think the time that I was probably in the most Jeopardy is the 2-month overlap and

22:49 March 2014 to May 2014 when they were both in the hospital the same time incredibly sick and that's whenever I mean I just didn't know if I could take it.

23:03 It was really I was overwhelmed at that time. But I mean, it's just black. I'll take it one day at a time one minute at a time and

23:16 It's a major roller coaster ride. I mean just when any family member has an illness that can take their life an immediate family member. It's a very intense emotional experience. And then when it's two young people with these terrible, unpredictable illnesses and unfortunately both of theirs with responsive, so I don't know that I would say p i mean I certainly felt moments of peace and prayer continue my very rich perloff lot of therapy lot of counseling lot of support for friends from friends. I mean, so I try and my work is a big

23:50 Great important to me and so keep in the structure in my life helped me a lot and I'm still doing that that

23:59 And I think my medical training help me to just to keep tactical and crises and a life-and-death crises and I was able to do that.

24:09 Did I answer your question? Yes, that's what I was just trying to.

24:14 Maybe throw something out to the public to see what they could do on a day-to-day basis just to sort of survive support yourself to for themselves told a few people about what was house that Colin was just because I don't have the Haywood ready for a lot of people to know that I say got sicker and he didn't respond. He became much more open. So I spread the circle of who I was telling cuz I really had his permission and then that helped me a lot because I have a lot of medical professionals in my life. And I think they are more educated at Baseline to that helped me and then I brought in my friends like you and other people and therapy and all that helped me and then Austin has process what he got very sick and basically never recovered that also has the onset of the illness occurred two months his brother died two months after he became ill which was just a nightmare I can only imagine how horrible that was for him.

25:14 It's horrible for me from my position. But I know each of us experience it from our own position for his process just a card a lot faster. He just got sick or faster.

25:25 Anthem

25:28 You know just try to do one day at a time one minute at a time. I mean every there's no formula. Everyone needs something different, but for me I maintain my structure.

25:39 You did mention to me during one of our conversations that just like a medicine every case is different. Every person is different right? You said it bipolar presents differently in every single person. So don't just look for the typical.

25:58 Presentation just keep in mind that it would could be different and it's just probably will be different for each person that made sense to me when I discussed with Collins treating psychiatrist after Austin gotten sick and he was just telling me he's been practicing Psychiatry 35 years. He's like every case looks a little different and that makes sense to me. I understood that. So just the bottom line is is if somebody is having what appears to be psychiatric distress, they need to get care right? Because most people do well with care that it's important and you would recommend the sooner the better the sooner the better.

26:44 Because almost every illness is easier to treat the beginning that I can think of right and then have the structure in place and the Caring Place if things really go poorly, I think that's important.

26:57 What is your spiritual life now now at times like this in life that we need everything. We just support ourselves on every level physically spiritually emotionally and intellectually. I mean, I'm doing all that and as your friend, I mean I saw that the boys never stopped that even during their illnesses. They were beautiful young athletic until I crack highly intellectual Boys Fun. You're just love sports love life and they they could try to look at life and in participating life from all those angles even during the illness as best. They could Until the End minutes. I mean, the other thing is actor Colin. I started going to the suicide survivors group. So as Austin was getting sicker. I was telling the people in the group while sick he was and how terrible it was and I mean the last two months before he died. I mean I was telling I was bracing myself.

27:59 How is that group helped you? Yes, yeah, it's helped me it but like I said, I have a lot of friendships and you know therapy and a lot of people and I have a lot of friends that have had very serious psychiatric illnesses in their family that said they'd understand what I'm going through and then people want something like this happens. If one is public with it, it gives other people license to talk to you but I love them so people couldn't tell me things and I'm thankful. Yes, it makes us feel like we're you know, we're all in life this life together. And I mean you receive love from them and compassion and understanding and I agree with that but it's amazing that you connected a whole different level. Absolutely with people when they share parts of their life that probably they would have shared ordinarily exactly. It gives them license mean I do continue to meditate daily and I've been thankful that I've been able to do that.

28:59 When I just didn't know what was going to happen and all this stuff goes through your mind. I remember when Colin was sick and Nish Ali when he was so sick. I was like my gosh people don't think I'm a terrible mother and a terrible doctor.

29:12 Because and but then what happened is I stopped feeling like that because I think the sticker they got I felt less personally responsible and then ask for feeling like a bad doctor. I just knew I was they were getting the best care. I was doing everything I could and that kind of went away too. So you just never know how you're going to feel right? It's

29:36 Some of the things I thought I was going to feel I haven't and other things I didn't expect to feel I have so it's an interesting crazy up and down process. You have the benefit of being a physician that you were able to understand the disease process a little better than most people and you said you were still feeling guilty Ryan so I can imagine the everyday person who doesn't have very much medical background doesn't understand the disease process. What would you say to them?

30:09 These are illnesses like diabetes.

30:12 And I mean let yourself off the hook. I guess that's that brings up the other thing. I want to talk about which is love.

30:20 Because

30:22 It's ya people. It seems like so many people react to Suicide with feeling so much self-blame and I see that in the groups and understand that to normal part of the grief process, but there's a time to let that go either brain illnesses and that we who are we to know what other people are going through weed out now and my son's both eventually told me about their hallucination but I feel confident. A lot of people have had these terrible internal experience is devastating and never told us all and died. And so who are we to judge people? That's what comes to me and just everybody it's

31:02 Beautiful to respond in love to respond to love to everybody because we truly don't know what people are going through and understand the full circumstances. And even though I personally feel like I know enough to go on with the loss of my children and grieve and some kind of reasonable way. I don't know everything but it's enough rent and I don't blame them. I think it was truly intolerable, but they were experiencing.

31:26 I can't believe either of them were able to withstand it that long to tell you the truth. And the lesson here. We just had this in one of our conversations philosophical conversations and that it's true. We really cannot judge or blame another person pretty much across-the-board for anything because we don't know what that person is going through with their reality is like what they're in a world is like or anything about them. I honestly

31:52 There can be so much missing information. And I mean in the future as we get better. I truly think that bipolar disorder. I hope we have genetic Therapies in the future. I think we can and just have different kind of brain Imaging that's already to me in the works. It's very exciting. But what all of us can do even if we're not the medical profession is respond with a loving heart and an open compassionate mind and

32:21 You know.

32:22 Not think that we know and it were judge and jury. We just don't know we all want love and we need to be loved right and felt supported and right and just be there for each other. Basically, I mean that's what life is all about and I do feel very loved and I'm so grateful. I'm not really overwhelmed by the middle because I'm forming. I guess it's supporting me on some kind of deep level that I'm so grateful for the time. We've had several prayer services that have been incredibly meaningful, but I'm so grateful for

33:01 It just goes to the Bone having prayer in these groups like this.

33:07 Seeing our community just support you and just watching and hearing conversations going on within the community. It has been a beautiful thing as sad and tragic as the situation is that part of it has been beautiful and I'm very very grateful that you can feel all this love because anyone that I come across or speak to that is what they want.

33:32 I just somehow let you know that you're on their mind and you know, they have loved and they have compassion and they want to support you. They want to do something for you and it's just been a beautiful thing to witness. I mean, I appreciate every kind thought and I think it has meaning I don't understand it any of us can understand and I hope that people I'm so grateful that they can transmit that to others when things come up set.

34:02 You know are difficult for people that some of us want to react strongly to.

34:08 Yes, I did and I think nothing goes unnoticed you're feeling this love but it's also helping the people who are giving it. You know, it's making them kind of lit Kinder more gentle more loving people. So you're receiving it but it's also changing them also when it's sort of changing the community a little bit and it is making it more of that is making people more aware more knowledgeable more educated bringing it to the Forefront and that's definitely what we need for sure. We do we want to try to remove the stigma of mental illness and we don't blame people when they get hypertension and yeah, okay healthy brain diseases and I just want to be one voice added to the voice is saying that

34:57 What do you have anything else that you'd like to share?

35:07 I'm grateful to be here today. I'm so thankful. You came with me and thank you for this opportunity to speak and

35:16 Just record the story. Yes, all the little things that you've done have just been so touching prayer service at your church had for you and

35:28 Your autographs that you have your son's that you made into metals. And when I tell that story to my son who is a friend of your son. I mean that touched him. It's it's just like a it's it's it's just been

35:45 I don't know the word just it it just keeps connecting people just each story We Tell or each little incident just keeps like making a spider web almost a spider web of Love connection and compassion and all the beautiful things in life. So it's beautiful to watch that happen. I'm grateful and I think there is an irony because we are Frontera play and my sons and not that many people knew what was going on. And now that their dad both of them. It's like now everybody knows and like I said, it was that fine line between protecting their privacy and the chair and get enough said that I had support that

36:28 It's it is interesting and I'm so grateful for my husband who's been wonderful and his educated himself because this isn't something people usually know about this every time we want to change that just a little right, right.

36:53 About what you loved most about each of your son. Thank you. Thanks for that question. I mean both of them were so mischievous and funny and calling in particular was really mischievous and they love the outdoors. Both of them were major Outdoors people. They laughed all the time actually at Austin's eulogy. That's his good friend said, I'll always remember his laugh.

37:22 How to spell a life when you talked about things and I guess the two things I will remember most of Collins little mischievous grin and Austin's belly laugh

37:38 They were like the whole package most sometimes you have children or young men who are smart and then not very athletic or down-to-earth these boys were like everything. They just like had it all, you know, they did and they were just funny and smart and down-to-earth love sports loved love life left life.

38:05 I can just drop down by terrible illness in 30 minutes. They will be missed and I'm very glad how you have portrayed this like like in a medical way like someone dying of cancer or diabetes. Yeah. Well these boys had a brain disease and that makes it easier for the general population. I understand right in and I think you're you're being a physician. It has more weight coming from you and especially a neurologist. So I think that has been helpful just in itself I think and I've been able to do that because of the amount of treatment they both received. I mean some people if Colin would have died right when he got sick which often happens I would ever have been harder for me. I would have been left with more questions, but because of the way things unfolded and the duration of time the severity of the illness the amount of treatment that occurred I got more grounded myself.

39:04 Became able to just deal with everything better and talk about it. No more clear fashion.

39:13 And you have definitely been able to help others missed not your place. But but that you have ended up comforting and soothing others because we all had our mine or grief nothing compared to your grief, but you've been able to soothe all of us while I'm grateful and that's what I want. Now. I mean when something horrible like this happens, I mean the best thing to do is try to transform it to help others in some form or fashion. And that's what I'm trying to do. I'm just at the infancy obviously of doing that also. It's only been dead for a month and I don't have a grand plan. I don't need to just waiting to see what's going to evolve but I'm that's my intention and I'll see what form that intention takes.

39:59 Thank you so much. Thank you.