Spencer Wiggins and Ebony Wiggins

00:02 My name is Ebony Wiggins. I'm 24 years old today is April 4th 2016 where in Nashville Tennessee and my relationship to this partner that I'm interviewing is my daddy.

00:17 My name is Spencer Wiggins.

00:20 I'm 69 years old today's date is April 4th 2016. Where in Nashville Tennessee and the relationship with my partner is my daughter ebony.

00:34 To Daddy. Okay, you're probably as you know, one of the best storytellers I know and so many things I want to talk to you about but we decided to talk today about Vietnam did not just Vietnam for your transition back into society after Vietnam and maybe what that was like what your struggles are like and maybe how that how we can kind of reflect on that in for today with today's veterans to the first question. I want to ask you is maybe you know, give a little bit of an inside and two when you went to Vietnam how long you were there and you know tell how you volunteered and you actually weren't drafted which makes you very unique to some people who were in Vietnam.

01:19 No, I was undrafted. I would have been drafted because I was not doing that well in college, I was kind of had it I kind of had a Carefree attitude. So to speak and back then you knew when your draft number was coming up and I knew Mom was coming up in about two months. So I decided to enlist I took a look at the different areas of service u.s. Army. Maybe I did like the Navy because I did like bell bottoms, but I like the Marines because I like the color of the uniforms and the Air Force I wound up going into the Air Force and

01:58 I grew up I grew up in the military is made me become more serious about things.

02:06 Because in the military especially in basic training where they work with you to make sure that you work together as a unit.

02:15 I became more interested in how I could be a better person and that was what basic training did for me. I didn't choose to go to Vietnam.

02:26 But once I got there.

02:29 It changed my life. Once you were over there clearly unibead in a war zone is something that can be very traumatic, you know. So how did you cope with this possibility of not returning home and not knowing if you're going to see the next day and not really knowing what your future was going to look like. How did you cope with that as an individual very fortunate to have people around me. There was one Sergeant who I met and he told me he said thing about being back home.

03:04 Has being on the moon or Mars look at it that way and try not to worry or think about it too much because you're going to need all your senses about you while you're over here. The thing that helped me also was when I was getting ready to leave my grandfather.

03:26 Asked me was I afraid this was a man who served in World War 1 and he asked me are you afraid?

03:35 And being young and somewhat arrogant I said no. I'm going to be all right. He said well if you're not afraid you should be because you're going to a place where people want to kill you for no other reason than the uniform that you have on and the country that your front so you should be afraid but just remember one thing keep the faith and stay low and that was one of the things that the sergeant told me. He said keep the faith and stay low. Now what sort of did you deal with any sort of Tramadol while you're over there? I mean did you deal with I mean what how did you suffer at all? I mean, it must be hard to not think about not going home. You know that that alone probably had some sort of effect on you right? I was not wounded. So I was very fortunate in that sense.

04:28 I did think about you know, what would happen if I did not want to die. That's for sure. But I try to put things in the back of my mind, especially given what I was doing. I was a forward air control of which meant I was calling in artillery in airstrikes on the enemy and sometimes how you did that was you do fire. And so I just took each day one day at a time. I had what we called are short-timers calendar and when I got there and I took a look at it and 365 days on there.

05:03 Somebody said you need to count backwards because 365 days or marking that off but I just concentrated on what I had to do.

05:13 So when you landed when you finally landed back home to the best of your ability, can you describe to me how you felt when you landed back on American soil?

05:23 It was

05:26 In a way and I say this it was somewhat traumatic because all of a sudden now, I wasn't in an area where there were things exploding around me or I had the dog where I had to listen for a siren to tell me to run to a bunker or to worry about being shelled or worry about sniper fire and I will tell you that I guess for the first month. I was very cautious about things walking down the street turning the corner. I took things a little bit differently. I was very cautious about how I interacted with people.

06:11 And the other side of that was I had an idea about what I wanted to do with my life because I thought I was very fortunate. So that's kind of ironic that you dealt with your trauma that when you got back some people you might hear say that the other trauma may be started when they were over there and they dealt with having to deal with that when they got back but you felt like you kind of for dealing with some sort of maybe some sort of mental difficulty when you came back when you landed even though you were relieved to be home. I mean, it was kind of white like, okay. This isn't when I'm used to no, I mean cuz it's me before you left life is clearly so much different when you got back so it's a little bit interesting that you your trauma that happened when you came here.

07:03 Was it so you said it was kind of hard for moving yourself from that war mindset. What was can you give me some sort of example, he said, you know and turning the corner when you talk to people was there maybe someone that you something that you didn't normally before you went to war that when you came back maybe you did it kind of differently now or just leave then because you came back because of what you went through sleeping and sleeping soundly for the longest time. I couldn't sleep very soundly if I would always be sleeping basically with one eye open ready to jump up and run to a bunker and so it took me a while to get used to being comfortable just sleeping soundly.

07:47 And I kept telling myself.

07:51 Spencer you're very blessed. You made it. There are those who did not make it friends of mine.

08:00 Therefore, you know, I sometimes even had a sense of

08:06 Guilt by me but I also felt very fortunate and it's amazing when you're over there. You hear people say things, you know, someone would say, oh my God, please get me out of here New York lot of grown men pray.

08:27 I made a promise to myself that if I ever got away from this place, I would try to be a better person.

08:34 What would you say was the biggest difference between the Spencer awakens prior to going to Vietnam and the Spencer Wiggins post-vietnam coming back?

08:44 Maturity I grew up a screw up really quick. And what way what way were you immature before you went to work before I went over there. The only thing that concerned me was where was the next party? Let's go out and hang out. You know, I didn't take anything very seriously.

09:02 When I returned I pretty much knew what I wanted to do with my life and I took a look at those individuals who I used to hang out with who are still doing the same things and I knew I didn't want to do that anymore. I knew I wanted to make something of my life. I knew I could be better. So that's what I went back to school and I'm really threw myself into my education. It sounds like you definitely liked her a lot because you to hear that you were so Carefree. I can't even imagine you being Carefree about anyting you be my dad for so long and then just hearing stories of you and you were growing up. I can't imagine you not caring about anything besides maybe a party or something like that and then to go to war and come back and completely, you know, go and get your degree you go and you you got yourself an amazing career and a family and you've raised people and you try to be a part of your community today. Do you think that you would still be that person if you had not gone to Vietnam?

10:02 You contribute so much. If you are to the fact that you went through that people say things happened to you for a reason and

10:10 That happened to me for a reason. It was my life's path.

10:14 I didn't think it would turn out the way it did but how I turned out.

10:21 I think being over there for that. Of time, you know changed me.

10:27 Dramatically, that's why I have so much sympathy and I can feel for veterans who go off to the Middle East and you know do two or three tours for five tours. I went to Vietnam. I did one tour. That's all you were supposed to do if you wanted to volunteer to do an extra tour you could and I knew coming home if I could just get out of here friends of ours would always say in the military if I can get my feet out of the country limits. I'll keep the thought out of my mind about this place and I was just so glad to get home. I know the day that I my plane landed.

11:09 At Travis Air Force Base outside of San Francisco

11:13 I was so

11:16 I guess you could say in shock about being back home. I remember walking to the airport and I was just looking around and I stopped to get a shoe shine.

11:25 And I remember I was just looking around and everything and I got up and I went to the ticket counter at the airport to get my transfer take.

11:38 And I remember.

11:41 One of the gate agents came up to me and she said Herman Wiggins you left your wallet.

11:48 And I said I did she said yeah and I had about $800 worth of cash in there, but she brought it to me, but I was just so I was just sold enamored with being back home and just seeing people walking around normally nobody in fatigues not worried about whether we were going to get them ordered or whatever that it just kind of took me totally by surprise. What was the first encounter that you had with your family? What was that? Like, I didn't tell my parents when I was coming back because I wanted to

12:26 Two things. I wanted to surprise them.

12:29 Second I wanted to make sure that my head was on straight and I remember what I did get back. I stopped off.

12:38 And

12:40 Philadelphia some relative's house my aunt and uncle my uncle Anderson and my Aunt Ruth.

12:49 And I told him I said, I know my mother is going to be shocked when she sees me.

12:55 And I remember looking in the mirror. I lost weight and because I was over there and that climate I was out and exposed to the elements. I was about two or three Shades Darker.

13:08 And so the day that I really came home. I knew my mother was working she work at a clothing Factory.

13:17 And I knew that she and her friends usually on a Friday at lunchtime. They would go to this tavern this Grill to get lunch. So I went there and I'm sitting at the bar and I was waiting for my mother to come in.

13:35 And I remember she walked in.

13:37 She looked at me and she didn't really recognize me at first.

13:42 And I just sat there and she looked again.

13:47 And she realized it was me.

13:50 And I thought she was going to faint because I look so different. So I got up and I walked over to her and she grabbed me and she hug me and she started crying.

14:00 And then she became angry. She said why didn't you tell me you were coming home? And I said I love I wanted to surprise you said well you did but just seen her and her seen they that that was really emotional. What about the first time you saw a Carla your first wife Carol Carol, I'm sorry Carol and Troy, you know, I would I went to visit them and I was very cautious about that as well because I didn't want them to be traumatized by seeing me at that time was about four 4. He was about four years old.

14:42 Did he know who you were when you yeah, he did. He kept looking at me like who is this? Who is this man? Cuz he hasn't seen me in a while in a year. And like I said, I'd lost weight and Carole was very excited to see me when you go off like that. You know, like I said, I was a very Carefree individual

15:03 And Carol who I married was about the only person besides my parents who wrote me on a regular basis and letters really meant a lot. You know, I try not to let them get to me because if you didn't get mail one day you would always feel guilty. I didn't get any mail today but is one of my friends over there told me he said, you know, I try not to get caught up and getting mail. He said because when I get it and I read it just makes me long for being home. And then I may go out and do something stupid it I don't concentrate on what I need to do. So it was a good thing bad thing you want mail, but then again, you don't want them because it may just made you think how much you missed on know nobody. No. No, no very very scary body was extremely shocked when I saw me. What happened after the first day you were there you come back to see everyone. Hey there.

16:03 I didn't started doing things getting familiar with the things that I missed going to get a Philadelphia cheesesteak. We're going to places and getting food that I have not been able to get while I was over there and that was something that really I began to get my weight back because I could eat little things that I enjoyed and home cooking everybody wanted to cook for you and everybody friends when they saw me they were all just so happy to see me cuz I like I said a number of my friends who have gone over many of them didn't come back. So I was one of those fortunate ones that they come back and then I really later on as I started.

16:51 Getting my sea legs about me. That's what I really feel myself into education education. I'm going back to school, right? Yeah, but I I really it was only for half a semester. You know, it's all in our Sky. Yeah, I was starting all over again, you know because now I do what I want to do and I knew hey, this is my second chance and I really felt that not everybody in life gets Second Chances and especially would seen around me when I was in Vietnam, you know people coming back home. I came back intact with all my limbs, you know my mind as they say in my right mind. So I was very fortunate and I got to take full advantage of this.

17:50 Going over there.

17:54 Because I didn't have

17:57 I didn't have an attitude of what war was really all about except what I saw in the movie and what was on the newsreels during that time because it was the first war that we had that for the Nightly News. They would always talk about what was going on in Vietnam and I didn't have a thought process about what I was really getting into. I just saw a I'm going to go over there and stay low and everything will be alright, but then when you're exposed to things when you are exposed to being watered and things are exploding around you and you're being shot at then all the sudden hit you wow, this is real here. I am

18:39 21, you know, I still have a lot of life left, hopefully and all the sudden I'm worried that this may be it, but I try not to think about it. I try not to think about it.

18:53 How long after being home did you kind of start to feel normal what you said about a month or did you ever feel normal there would be times when even after I've been I had been back for about 2 years. I would hear something or somebody would say something and it would cut him.

19:18 You know joke me a little bit. So I was constantly, you know, trying to maintain some equilibrium about myself one of my friends who came back. He was wounded and had really gotten into drugs. He have been taking painkillers when he was in the in the military hospital. He was drinking heavily and I took a look at him and I really started to feel bad because growing up we were I mean we were thick as thieves we hung out together.

19:51 It was an excellent football player. He thought he was going to get a scholarship but that didn't work out and so we enlisted in the army.

20:00 And he came back and he dealt with a lot of demons and I saw that and I tried to help him did what I could eventually got his life together. But I took a look at many of my friends and they are going off the deep end and I just now getting involved in illegal acts selling drugs doing things like that. And I just knew that that's not no not really. I really have a lot of it had to do with the fact that this was not a war that was popular. So when you came back you weren't greeted as you are now when people say you don't want to thank you for your service. The first jarring reality of that was when I landed at Travis Air Force Base outside of San Francisco, and I got on the bus to go into San Francisco.

21:00 I know some demonstrators outside the main gate of the base, and I remember they were chanting and marching and I'll never forget I can see her face as clear as I see you was right now young girl had a sign up and she looked at me.

21:18 And she just called me a baby killer and that just you know Shock Me.

21:27 And

21:29 It really brought home the fact that this was such an improbable war that I didn't let people know if they if they asked I told him that I didn't say. Hey ya served in Vietnam and I always remember I was interviewing for a part-time job while I was in school and interviewer. He said I see hear you in the military and I said, yeah, he said did you serve in Vietnam? And I said yes, I did. He said how you feel about that I said.

22:05 It was my duty. I had to go he said oh, so you're proud of me a baby killer.

22:12 And I said I didn't kill any babies now saying something like that today would be illegal and I didn't say anything. I just realize you know, that was the way he he felt basically after we finish the interview I look at him as I'm not going to get this job at night and he said I don't know what we'll get back to you. I didn't get it. But that was the way people thought about Vietnam back there. So when people

22:48 Asked you about whether you served it was not in many cases, except your family something that anybody did from a positive standpoint, which is kind of interesting since Vietnam was a draft War. So I mean if you hadn't volunteered and you were drafted you really didn't have any control necessarily but if you want me to give up, what did I buy running out of the country or you know things of that nature and that's interesting, you know that people felt so strongly towards soldiers person who made you know, who were probably drafted and for someone to call you a baby killer.

23:31 That's kind of that kind of interesting. I think even now today because Vietnam is such an iconic war and your people nowadays who you know, if you weren't in Vietnam, especially when you look at politicians, especially if you look at people, oh, I was in Vietnam. I was invented something now that people listen to almost be proud of him boast about when did you feel comfortable at least be able I mean, do you feel proud that you were in Vietnam? How do you really feel about that? I come from a long list of men in my family who served in the military as I said, my grandfather served in war war one was wounded in the World War 1 my father served in the second world war all of my uncles.

24:24 They were in the military because me, of course.

24:29 In the 40s 50s the military was a way out. Okay, and for them to serve, you know, it meant something and for me, I just looked upon it as serving my country. I'm proud of the fact I'm proud of that fact and I don't begrudge anyone who conscious it cuz it was a conscientious objector who went off to Canada you do what you think is his best. If you didn't feel the war you don't want to participate in that I don't I'm not angry at you, but I did.

25:05 And I came home and everyday.

25:10 I made it a point to say what I take from that I take every day as a gift.

25:15 Everyday is a gift and I do have some things I have to overcome as many times as I've been to Washington. I've never been to the wall. I will one day because I've got several friends whose names are carved on their they're part of the $59,000 lost their lives in one day. I will get around to doing that but why has it been so difficult for you to do that?

25:43 I guess I've been afraid of how I would react.

25:49 Seen all those names.

25:52 What time you just hear is it anger and sadness is sadness and Time Heals everything it heals everything and it hasn't fully healed that for, you know, it hasn't and it's something that I know I will get around to.

26:11 And it may be something that's just spontaneous. I made it say hey, it's time for me to go do this one of the

26:25 Young man who lost his life over there was a high school friend of mine. His name is Richie Del Arena and Richie Richie always hung around the black guy's he was on the basketball team and he used to always call himself a soul brother.

26:45 And Richie's parents they had money but Ritchie volunteer to go into the military along with my other friend and Teddy Teddy Reed.

26:57 And I remember they went in under the buddy system.

27:02 Remember the day they were leaving to go to basic training.

27:07 And they were together and then when I got out of basic training, I was home that been out for for a while and they said it we got to order to going to Vietnam under the buddy system.

27:20 That's where you and list together and all your duty assignments are together, wherever you wherever if you leave basic training and I say you're going to be stationed in Germany you both go to Germany. And so that you can you can stay together. So they came by the house to let me know they were going to Vietnam and they said what can you tell me? What can you tell me?

27:45 But I said, the one thing I can tell you is be careful.

27:48 And Ricci was one of these kind of guys. He was always laughing. He was always joking. He's a tall course man. We're going to be careful cuz I'm going to have my buddy here is going to have my back and I'm going to have his back and he said it when we get back home and we're going to we're going to party in okay.

28:08 And we hugged and

28:11 Three months later. I found out that Richie was killed by sniper.

28:17 After that, Teddy Teddy read who you went in with Teddy.

28:23 Got wounded because of

28:27 A mortar had exploded around him and you know just

28:31 Female messed him up pretty bad and he came back home Richie dying over there really took a lot out of him and I remember going to the hospital to see him.

28:43 And that's when I could tell that he wasn't he wasn't right. He had started drinking and and things of that nature and

28:55 He just kept talking about Richie.

28:59 Just kept talking about Richie and that's one of the things that that I think about it often because Richie was so

29:05 He was such a lovable person in his parents didn't want him to go. I mean he like I said he had money they had money they wanted him to go to school and he said no, I don't want to do that. I got plenty of time to do that. I want to I want to live my life my own way and I often think about that and I think going through that wall and seeing his name Richie. Lorena. I think that would that would probably get to me a little bit.

29:30 Right right. Now it seems like you. With coming back from Vietnam and a very normal way like you said you came back intact and your right state of mind and some people would say that you to come back to be so well to be such a good condition that you're very very lucky and kind of rare especially since article on time in 2015 in July said that there's still more than 200,000 Vietnam Vets who are still suffering from PTSD and you're not necessarily one of them. I don't think correct.

30:14 I hope not unless I'm putting on a very a very good act here, but that's why when I see.

30:25 People on the street

30:27 That's why when I work at Samaritan Ministry on Saturdays, when we go there to feed those people who are less fortunate one day a guy came in and he had on a cabinet said Vietnam veteran.

30:42 And it's one thing about Vietnam veterans that we always say, where were you were you and I core. Were you where were you in the Encanto? Were you in the Mekong Delta?

30:58 And I asked him I said, where were you and he said he was up in a place called play cool. And I said Marines or Army. He said aren't US Army I said when we were there he said 1969 to 1970.

31:16 And although many of the memories I have about that are not good memories.

31:23 It's interesting when you meet someone who was there how easily it is to talk about it. I've done one other interview with you about Vietnam. But other than that, you're not someone who talks about it, and I have friends whose parents or grandparents in Vietnam and they say the same thing. So that's that's interesting. I am but what do you what do you think that could be done to help more people not just in the Vietnam War. But even in this world when you have so many soldiers you were coming back and are not able to cope, you know our suffering PTSD are committing suicide. What do you think? What do you believe needs to be done in order to kind of correct that are to come to make that better whether it be you know, what happens when they're in the military or when I come back or after the deployed. You know, what do you what do you think? What do you believe needs to be done are truly believe that we need to do more than just say, I thank you for your service mean when you go into the

32:23 Military and you go overseas or whatever. I mean your displaced. I mean you sacrifice for your country and when you volunteer to do that, I mean, yeah, you know what you're signing up for but when things happen, I think we need to be more conscientious about veterans and not just use them as I guess you could say political.

32:51 Political baggage in some way. It amazes me. I see some politicians who talk about, you know, we need to do this when you do that. We need two boots on the ground and many of them have never served in the military many many of them have never been away or deploy. Do I being away from their families? And so I think we need to become more serious about that and and in today's environment because we do have a volunteer army 1% of the population in this country basically are in the military.

33:22 And I think we need to be very understanding about the sacrifices that are made when people are deployed like that. So did I come back healthy the thing still cross my mind at times? Yes, but do I get up every morning and say thank you. Yes, I do because I know I didn't have to be here and how does that make you feel when you hear veterans that are suffering knowing that there's not enough being done. How do you determine? How does that

33:54 I try to do my part to lend my voice to say what is the right thing to do?

34:01 Age age gives you something that when you're young you never think about when you get to be my age, basically you you know that

34:15 You lived a good life.

34:18 But you wanted to be better for others and you need to share that.

34:22 I can give you our thoughts and then things to others and that's one of the things that I often try to think about. How can I make things better and many people talk about it when I get back? Well, do you as I say often we all have one thing in common and that the hours on a week. We all get a hundred 68th and how you use that hundred sixty-eight is up to you. I don't care I bet you are located where your station in life is you all get to say we all get the same amount and how we use that time is extremely important. That's why I do what I do and when I run across somebody who's a veteran I try to do everything I can to help them because there by the grace of God go I

35:05 Right

35:07 Well, Daddy, I got a little bit more time that I ask you. This is I think I could question what what are your thoughts though on the Iraqi War and the Vietnam War because some people feel like the Vietnam War was pointless. We should have been over there and you find the same things being said about that Iraq and Afghanistan where that we should have been over there that we shouldn't what are your thoughts of someone who served in the Vietnam War and it's also have lived to see this war. What what how what do you think about that? I remember 1964

35:47 The Gulf of Tonkin incident. I knew I was in New York at the time. I was working for the summer and I remember that there was an incident the Gulf of Tonkin and that was what brought us into Vietnam President Johnson was the president in 1964. He had won the election by a landslide and he decided that we need to go in there red South Vietnam of the Communist who they felt were coming in to take over the country will later on. I found out there was no incident in the Gulf of Tonkin just like there was no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

36:26 Both of them are the same except one had more casualties Vietnam had 59,000 the Iraq War took maybe five six thousand.

36:38 I think both of them were useless. It wasn't like World War II where you had an enemy who was trying to take over the world was killing people invading countries. This war Vietnam was a political war started by Kennedy and did Van Johnson ever had him out of office. The Iraq War was started because somebody said they were weapons of mass destruction and then somebody said they wanted to boil

37:07 Both of them in the same in the sense that the casualties in one more lap more than the other but I think we sacrificed a lot of lies because of egos

37:18 And that's not what we should be going to war for you go to war to defend yourself you go to Ward and right some wrongs not to make people look good in the eyes of the public.

37:32 Well, Daddy, I think that's about it. Thank you.