Sherry Peruzzi and Meredith Peruzzi

00:05 My name is Meredith Peruzzi. I'm 35 years old today's date is June 1st, 2016. We are in Baltimore, Maryland, and I'm interviewing my mother.

00:13 My name is Sherry Peruzzi. I'm 68 years old to date is June 1st 2016. I'm in Baltimore and I'm being interviewed by my daughter.

00:25 So actually have a really specific question for the first question. I wanted to ask because it's something that I've been thinking about a lot in recent years as all of my friends have been having babies and as you know, I'm not interested in having kids, but I know that you went through and barely arduous process to have me and that's something that we've never really talked about and I don't know if it's just not been something that was important or if it's because your relationship with my birth father fell apart after that. I don't really know why but I kind of Wonder I know you were trying to have me for like 10 years and I wonder if you can tell me when did that start and what happened? And what did you do for 10 years before I was born. Well it started with Rodger.

01:11 And it went on for quite some time. We went for medical help. But it in those days. It was pretty primitive. That would be in the sixties and early seventies. And so that didn't accomplish anything and then we split up and then I married and

01:38 The same thing happened and I thought oh, no, not again. I mean we didn't start trying right away. I was using birth control at first, but then the time came, you know after I don't know a couple years and and it just wasn't happening and we went for tests and they couldn't find anything wrong. His sperm count was low, but not so low it would be completely preclude and I was fine. So, I don't know we just went on

02:13 And I desperately wanted a baby.

02:17 And I was thinking about adopting but the way the relationship was I didn't know if we'd even passed an adoption test, but I wanted my I wanted a child.

02:31 And then we went to you know, there's an old myth that says go away on vacation and you'll be relaxing you get pregnant in that is very much a mess. So I don't know if it's pure coincidence or if there is a nugget of truth that spawns of stereotype, but we went to the Dayton Hamvention in Ohio and I didn't know it for a couple of weeks yet, but when I came back I was pregnant so you actually got started in Dayton Ohio. I don't think I've ever actually heard that before I didn't know that it was on vacation and I didn't know that it was at in Ohio, but I've certainly never even heard the myth about it being easier to get pregnant while you're on vacation that certainly doesn't seem like it would make sense. But I guess it worked this time. I don't know.

03:31 That's what worked for how many years have you been trying with Bob? And were you mean were you actively trying because I know there's I've had friends who desperately tried to conceive and went through, you know, lots of processes or had you just kind of well, we'll see if it happens and then 35 in more years ago. They weren't that many processes to do.

03:56 I honestly don't remember specifically what we did. I know we went and got sperm count and I got tested and whatnot. And I know that they tried artificial insemination with his sperm aih, it was called husband's sperm as opposed to donor sperm and I guess donor sperm would have been the next thing which was a big deal in those days. It sounds to rest now in today's world of high-tech medical things where you can have a baby with surrogates. That isn't even I don't know anyway,

04:38 But there you were and I somehow even though I had never been pregnant before I knew I don't know how I knew but I just knew of all the times before when I was a couple days late and thought maybe I'm pregnant it felt different. I knew that I was pregnant and so they did have home pregnancy test by then and I got one and it said you were in there and I didn't I wasn't sure whether to believe it cuz they weren't that accurate in those days, but it turned out to be true Did you what was the pregnancy like, I don't think I've ever heard about that either and I only remember one picture of you when your pregnant in the photo albums at home. But what was the pregnancy like it was an average pregnancy it was

05:34 It was I didn't have a really severe problem with morning sickness. I did have morning sickness, but I've heard of women who have it like 24/7 for a while. It was just morning sickness and I would eat a few crackers before lifting my head from the pillow and that would pretty much do what I didn't need medication for it.

05:56 Later on it. It was just pretty much like an average pregnancy. There was nothing special. I mean you can look up what it's like and that's pretty much what it was like, I'm good. I'm glad it wasn't, you know, problematic or anything. And anyway, I guess no pregnancy is ever going to be wonderful. There's you know, there were things happening but there was there was one Scare at about six weeks. I started spotting bleeding just spotting not nut and low and that scared me to death that I might be losing you or losing the baby. I didn't know who you were yet and but it worked out fine. I mean it was just oh oh and I guess this Bears mansion in 2016. I didn't know what's xur. They did not have the ultrasounds yet. They had ultrasound, but they weren't clearing.

06:56 In those days to determine sex and so I found out you were a girl when you were born.

07:05 Now, okay. I noticed you made a face and you stuck your tongue out at me when I said that I don't want to have kids and I wonder why that gives you that specific type of reaction. I can assume that you wish that you would have grandkids. But what what disappoints you or how do you feel about the fact that I am really not interested in having kids? Well, it's not something I ever mentioned because I know you don't in it the only good it would do would be to nag you to no purpose. And so I don't mention it.

07:46 But I desperately desperately would like to have a grandchild. I don't know the same way. I desperately wanted a child. I don't know that I can articulate why very clearly

08:03 But I see I'm probably going to cry when I see other grandparents friends with your grandchildren. And usually I am okay, you know any ordinary basis, but once in a while something we'll just go through me and so it does kind of break my heart. But if I mean I've accepted it and it's your choice and numb.

08:28 I certainly can't you know make make you change your mind or whatever, but I know I've never tried to know I know and I appreciate that. You've never tried to change my mind about anything but I've decided I want to do you know, maybe small things but not something you know as big as that and I wonder if it would help if I sent you the pictures that we get everyday of my baby nephew. Maybe I should send those to know that would make it worse. Okay, I won't do that then but it's I know that it's it's not the common Choice a lot of people.

09:05 Go through a lot of criticism when they say they don't want to have kids and I think that may be part of the reason why is because it's you know, it's I don't want to say a let down for the family but it's just like other people put their hopes into what somebody else wants to do wants to do and you can always you know, it's not always going to work that way and I appreciate that you've never, you know, wanted to force me into anything that I shouldn't want to do. I guess one of the reasons and it's not the only reason but one of the reasons is there's nobody to pass things onto I have things that are Treasures to me that are important that are heirlooms from my mother or my grandmother and I can give them to you but after that

09:57 Eternal diggit I just sold in a pawn shop or something. Your daughter's a historian. I think she knows what to do. I know what to do with things like that in terms of you know, preserving things and making sure that they get put somewhere where they can be useful and wanted and you know, maybe continue with other members of the family and that kind of thing. So if you've got things that you want to keep going in the family, you should give them to me cuz I can do you know, I can do stuff like that. Somehow I'll figure it out kind of like we're doing storycorps with, you know, making sure that we get these stories down. That's something that I'm interested in is preserving our family history. So by the way while we're on the subject of having children, I wanted to mention that I never planned for you to be an only child.

10:51 With Bob there was no quit. Anyway, it didn't even come up because I left after not that long after you were born. You were one in large part because I didn't want it passed on I didn't want you to grow up believing this was the way a marriage is and in the perpetuating the cycle of abuse.

11:18 But after I married Tom, we had a definite plans of my having another baby. So you would have a brother or sister and we would have two children.

11:36 03 that was that was two or three would be okay with me not more but I definitely wanted more than one but he got sick. He got sick and so it never happened. But the fact that some people have only children because they just want one child and I wanted you to know that that was not the intention really thought about it being an only child is just the way it's always been and there has maybe been times where I have wished. I had a sibling for various reasons like I see the relationship on a house with her sister and I think that must be really cool to have that kind of relationship with somebody because I it doesn't exist for me, but I'm also happy the way I am because I've never known anything else and it's funny cuz it kind of gives me something to relate to other only children with there's on Facebook. There's a thing that goes around, you know National Sibling Day and everybody post pictures with

12:36 Siblings in the rest of us are like hey, where are we supposed to put a picture up with but I never I may have wanted a sibling for certain reasons, but I never really it was never a great tragedy for me that I didn't have one or

12:55 Anything that I even really thought about and you know, obviously I understand why it didn't happen, but it doesn't bother me that it didn't happen if you know what I mean.

13:08 But I wouldn't change our family in size or anything. We're at Tiny Family. I think a lot of it seems like everyone I know has brothers and sisters and cousins and aunts and uncles all over the place and we've got you know, you and me and your brother and Lord of sort of if you can't we tell him you know what? I mean? We we love each other. It's just that there's not too much we can talk about. Yeah, we're you and I are very different from your brother. But our family is so small now and I do kind of I do see people with bigger families and I I don't know what that's like and I do ever feel wistful about that kind of yeah, because

13:56 I do feel like

13:59 You know our line will end and as much as I can do to preserve and record that and as a historian that makes me very happy that I know how to do that at the same time.

14:17 Where's it going to go? You know, we we just stopped our care who's our story is going to stop and you remember I went to City Hall in New York and I got those records and they were great for us and you don't like for people in the world cared and how was it?

14:34 I hate when I went and got the Naturalization records for my great-grandfather and the marriage records for your mom and it was just that one day trip, but will for my mom and dad or your mom at yes, but it was in it was a one-day trip, but it meant so much to us and not really to anybody else. And that's actually that's one of the big things. I like about storycorps is that people go and listen to other people's stories. Have you heard of the made-up word sonder?

15:06 No, I think it's made up but it just means as you walk past somebody you realize that they're an entire story unto themselves. They have their own life and you know, nothing about it and we got that everyday but everybody has a story and that's why I like storycorps cuz you go and look them up. Yes, but you don't get that with most people so our story is going to fade away except for maybe people who go and listen to us on story car.

15:38 Well that kind of TAPS into why one reason why I'm sad about not having a grandchild. Yeah, nobody. I mean I have things that Tom left when he died that nobody else cares about they were so important to him like his qsl card collection each one hard one, you know when the contesting ham radio contest

16:03 And

16:05 So what you know, I mean to me they're important because they were important to him. But after that they're just a box of paper that's going to end up getting recycled. So unless you can you know, find something to do with them there maybe ham radio history projects that want that kind of thing and that certainly worth looking into leave that to you too. I will take care of that because I know there's going to be a lot when you pass away I'm going to be going through boxes of stuff. I know that I'm a pack rats. Okay, I like going through that stuff. You only problem is it's going to take me forever cuz there's you know, I have to look at everything because it might be cool and I want to see what it is. I won't in the end don't worry because I will you know, do you remember when I was a kid and it was my job to bag up the newspapers for recycling and it would take me two hours because I would sit there and read all of that. I will do that with your papers. Trust me. I will not be able to just know this is crap. I'm throwing it away. That's one reason why I can't get rid of the piles of magazines. I get magazines and then I have to be sold one.

17:05 Said it's time. I Q No, 3 hours later. And I finish reading this magazine I can decide okay, and now I can recycle it but it's too late three hours and I still I do that all the time and that's actually

17:21 I wanted to mention I don't know if you know why I don't want kids. There's obviously a number of reasons. It's not a simple decision, but one reason is.

17:35 I don't feel I am together enough to have a kid and obviously, you know taking 2 hours to recycle something because you're reading it isn't what I mean, but just

17:48 There are enough.

17:52 Struggles in my day-to-day life that I don't feel I can add to that by having a kid and I don't feel that obviously the joy of having a child would outweigh the difficulty that it would be for me with all of my anxiety and depression and everything. I don't feel that I would be able to handle it really and you know like we were talking about before we got here when we were talking about how I would handle my wife's funeral I would say if I had to I would manage but I don't want to get to that point. I don't want to add stress to my life because I deal with it very badly. I had some stuff happen this morning related to work and I dealt with that very badly and it's just

18:42 I don't want to introduce complications and inflict them on a child who has to deal with a mother who may not be as together as she'd like to be for what it's worth. Nobody ever feels ready to have a child. I mean, even if you want one worse than anything when your 9 months pregnant and you were thrilled to be pregnant and your 9 months pregnant and you go wait a minute, can I cancel it? I don't think I can do this. And of course you do but I mean that feeling of of unreadiness of not being able to to deal with it and then the baby is there and you're like, I have no clue of how to do this, baby.

19:32 And when there was one time when you were very very little that I just had this wild impulse and you were crying you cried a lot. You were colicky. I had this wild impulse to just fling you against the wall. And of course then I was horrified and I threatened my God. I'm a terrible mother and I and I talk to people and I found out it is totally normal. As long as you don't act like it is totally normal to have those kinds of feelings. One friend said I wanted to throw my baby out the window, you know, Dad is status completely normal. So what I'm getting at is every mother has those kinds of feelings and to me it certainly was worth all the trouble and for me. I had a lot of stress in the different sense because of being in an abusive marriage, but it's still

20:32 Was more than worth it to to have you as difficult as it was with everything and I think if I had the motivation to have a child, I would I deal with it, you know, whatever difficulty it would bring I would deal with it. But also the motivation just isn't there. I don't feel the need to

20:55 You know have my genetics carry-on, maybe my stories and my artifacts and so forth my object, but not my jeans. So it wasn't it wasn't jeans for me either or I would have been just as happy than an adopted child know I understand that but I mean, I don't I I don't need my name to carry on. I don't need you know, I don't really feel that need at all. There's no innate urge and as you know, I know I had that for a long time. I mean she wanted to have a baby from when she was even before she was 18 years old. She wanted to have a baby and of course she couldn't with her first husband and then with me that's not going to work. But well there are easy ways your ways, but you know what I mean, but so it just didn't work out and for her that's a tragedy for me. I don't have that urge. It's not there she had it so I certainly understand that people do and that you did but I don't want kids just because I don't want them.

21:55 You know, well, I know and that's why I never bugged you about it. If you were ambivalent, then I might have pushed a little bit. My mother pushed very heavily very obviously and it used to drive me crazy. So I would never do that to you. Did she ever push your brother Marty to have kids cuz they never had kids. Not that I know of but it's different. He was worse than it was. She she was a product of of of the I mean she was born in 1915 and married in 1941, but is culturally she was a product of the 50s when I was growing up and he was the boy and as much as she wanted a grandchild. I was the one sheet focus on.

22:46 I think if you had been a boy or she had only had the one child do you think she would have been pushed her son Leslie? Of course, she would put pressure on her daughter-in-law. I don't think she would put pressure on a son. I think she would put pressure on a daughter-in-law on the woman because the woman is responsible because from the 1950s. What else do you remember about?

23:14 Grandma and maybe even about Great Grandma Mary cuz you met her right you met Mary. Yes, but it did you live. Yeah, she lives with us. But only until she was 4 I was for only until I was for so the memories are not real clear the main the main memory I have the said she was sickly and I had a little friend who lived on the 5th floor I lived on the fourth floor is this in the Bronx? Yes, and his name was Jackie and we were both like 3-4 years old together. And so I would go up and play with him and he had a grandmother who was healthy and his grandmother would take him out for ice cream his grandmother would bring him presents and you know what that age children are totally self-centered and and it's normal it is

24:14 About me and I was very resentful because my grandmother couldn't do any of those things and so my perception was my grandmother didn't do any of those things. I understood it was because she was sick and couldn't but the emotionally to take was that she didn't and your three years old. Yeah. And so I was resentful that I didn't have a grandma who could do those things. You know, it's funny. You should mention that I think it was yesterday A friend of mine who posts questions to Facebook every day just to let you know here with his friends are thinking he posted what food did your grandma cook that you loved and my answer was I don't know. I didn't have that, you know by the the only memories I actually have of your mother Are by the time she had to mention she was living in Maryland. I have no memories of going to visit when she lived in, Florida.

25:14 We have the Palm 90 story. Remember that story very well if not the event of course, but

25:20 Everybody's saying you know my grandma made this my you know, my my mother's mother made this and my father's mother made that and my response was there isn't anything because not everybody has that experience touches on it with one of the other reasons why I want a grandchild or wood would have liked to have a grandchild because I wanted to be that kind of Grandmother when you told me that your mother-in-law has said she'd have no interest in Babysitting no interest in any of that. I told you I do and I will let you know because I would love to do that kind of thing. Yeah, I just

26:01 You know.

26:04 If I had a kid, it wouldn't be for me. And I don't think you should ever have a child for anybody else agree with that 100% and that includes adoption, you know, you should not raise a child because somebody else wants one if Anna had been able to have a child or if she'd wanted to adopt we could have talked about it and I might have been persuaded, but I personally would not want to

26:30 Have a kid for somebody else stay together for the kids. Just don't don't go there, you know, and I see it with.

26:37 With a gate with my nephew because they are doing a wonderful job with him. I have no idea how this works. I don't know how people do babies. I mean it's heat, you know, he's waving now he's starting to babble and make noises and stuff. And I'm just like, how does the baby know what to do? How does he know? How does he crawl? I don't know these things because I've never been exposed to babies and I actually think I'm pretty bad with them when I do see them like, okay. Here's this baby or you don't even worse. Here's a four-year-old. How do I talk to it? I don't know what to do with kids, but I see how they're raising him and it's very interesting to me because it's the closest I've ever been to someone raising a child.

27:19 I don't know how they do it. I mean he gets sick and they take him to the doctor and then and then what happens and I just I don't understand. I really don't understand parenting at all. It happened step that reminds me of when Sue Crawford and I were at the mall and her daughter was maybe twelve at the time 11 or 12 and you were like five and her daughter asks for some money and she gave her some money and the daughter went off to shop.

27:50 And I said, how do you know when they're old enough to let them go on their own in the mall? I mean, how do you know? She said you just know you'll you'll know and you know, when the time came, I did know that's what I mean. It it just happens and I got I get that if I had kids it would just happen but the very concept is just like I mean there was last year. I went to a pool party and there was a kid there. It was all adults except for this one kid was maybe like 8 and

28:24 I kind of tried to stay away from him because I don't know what to do and everybody says just talk to them like an adult and I'm like woah, yeah, but it's not an adult and I don't know how to handle it. And I know that I was very different in that way cuz you've told me about the story about having a conversation with me. Like I was an adult that was amazing. I know that I was different but for the most part I look at kids and I don't know what to do and I feel kind of bad for that and even with Iggy I feel bad for that because I kind of want to hold him, but I don't really want to do anything else cuz I don't know what to do.

29:03 We're getting kind of theoretical here. Why don't you go back to some questions that give her more personal?

29:10 Okay. Okay. Thank you.

29:17 So I do want to ask what?

29:21 Lessons you have learned from being.

29:26 And you had four marriages and what is one good thing you learned about yourself from HFM and one thing you learned not to repeat from each of them.

29:48 I'm trying to figure out where to start.

29:51 Start with Raj out know whether than do that way. I think I'll do it. The other way what comes to mind this thing that I learned did you say about myself did the number one on that list would be self confidence and that was from Daddy from Tom.

30:13 He you know why I had come out of an abusive marriage and although I was much much better than I had been I was still not.

30:28 Completely together

30:32 And he she just demonstrated confidence in me. He didn't he didn't just say it. I mean, I'm sure he said it to the best example I can think of is when I was getting my pilot's license and it was time for my lost my lung cross country which involve flying solo to three other airports getting somebody to sign it to prove that you've been at those airports and then coming back and so the day came and I was going to do it and I check the weather which is mandatory and there was a wind straight across the runway and and I said to him he was my instructor and I said to him I'm not going and he said why aren't you going I said, well, there's a wind that's exactly 90u00b0 to the runway and it's gusting to 25 knots and I

31:32 I don't think I can handle that.

31:34 Which is about close to 30 miles an hour and he said sure you can I said no, I'm not ready for that. So I'm you know, I'm going to postpone it. He said no you can do it. He virtually pushed me out the door. He insisted I could do it and I finally said all right, you know, I don't know what that cost him in terms of I mean both the student you don't want to lose or enter a student and also being his wife, you know, but he seemed to be very casual about it and then convinced that I would be fine. I wasn't at all convinced but I I he just put you know pushed verbally and you know what I was fine and I really

32:27 I mean the whole thing is still with me to this day because it

32:36 It really gave me confidence. And the number one thing I lost of course prior to that was being married to Bob was the same thing was self-confidence because he continually tore me down. I would talk about leaving he would laugh at me and say oh, yeah, how you going to leave who's going to take care of you while I'll get a job. I'll take care of myself. Oh, yeah, right who would hire you and you know on and on like that until he finally was it Karl Marx that said if you or someone if you if you repeat a lie often enough people will believe it that's what happened. And I finally got into it that I was helpless and hopeless and couldn't do anything right and

33:31 Counseling to get out of that. I went to a a class recently on emotional abuse and I thought about you because I know that he did those things and for a while, I never really understood when I was a kid. I guess I never understood how it was an abusive relationship because you said he was generally not physically abusive, but as an adult, I've come to understand how you don't have to hit someone to be abusing them. He eventually did in the last year or so. I don't know exactly when it started to escalate to physical abuse. He never beat me up. Although that might have come had I stayed but I was once shoved into the wall hard enough to crack the sheetrock. He choked me once I didn't quite blackout I was about to

34:27 And things like that, so it's you know, I don't know how far that would have gone, but it was most of the time we were together. It was emotional abuse and that started on her honeymoon. I've asked myself many many times. What did I miss during our courtship that I should have seen and I finally realized there was nothing he

34:54 Until I was in his power as a wife, he was nothing but gentlemanly, when was your honeymoon? When did you marry him? 1975 I believe.

35:12 Cuz you know me I tried up Scituate things historically and I think also at that time there was not a lot of the information that we have now about different types of abuse. And even now we're only beginning to say to women that you know, there are ways to leave and that it's not that it's okay if you don't but that people are beginning to understand that you can't necessarily and back then that wasn't the thing. Yeah, you know, you couldn't leave for number of years because he tore you down but back then nobody understood that you couldn't leave that's exactly right and that's why I asked when you got married when your honeymoon was because I try to situate it in terms of what was the culture like at the time now, there's a lot more awareness of it and more resources a lot more resources and hopefully, you know, people will help someone who's in that

36:12 I worked both in West Virginia and hearing Howard County. I worked on a abuse abused wife's hot and it was wives in those days. It was Partners spousal abuse hotline my staff in two states because that's how I stopped. It actually started while I was still married to Bob.

36:39 And and then when I was married to Tom and move to to Howard County, I applied to the domestic when would domestic violence whatever is called then they changed names a couple of times and I worked there for several years. I think I learned to help other people from you cuz I remember the wish meetings from After Tom died and you working with domestic abuse victims and everything. I think that's where I learned to to help people when I was 20. Line. I don't know what that's what I could do.

37:18 I don't know if I could or not. I mean it wasn't General crisis hotline, you didn't have to be suicidal to call it. But yes, it's tough, but they train you and Anna and I did it. So I think I mean I've been volunteering since since I was that I mean at least since I was 20

37:41 I tried to now.

37:44 I don't do as much as I would like probably because I've got you no work and school and everything, but that's kind of why I that's one of the reasons I got involved with the Avon Walk was because that's a weekend, you know where I can do something positive to help people and it doesn't have the same kind of time commitment. So that's why I like that as a as a volunteer resource for me for The UU church, but it's still volunteering. I still work hard and I think we're probably going to get the signal that we're out of time any second now, so maybe that's a good place to wrap up and I'm sure we'll continue the conversation on the way home. I hope so. Thank you so much for coming. I really wanted to do this. Thank you so much for so long. I didn't know then I mean, it's LLC. It didn't occur to me. There wouldn't be a booth in Washington and I always felt kind of bad that you didn't said that you never set it up.

38:44 An inn for a while. I wouldn't even listen to them because you know what made me feel bad. And so when I when you told me that you were setting this up that when you found out that there's no permanent booth in DC figured, you know, there was one this was the first time I've had the opportunity to get you to storycorps. I am so thrilled that you did I have wanted to do this for so long. Thank you.