Sarah Jumonville and Kristen Brownlow

00:02 Hi, my name is Kristen Brown though. I'm 29 years old. This is August 12th, 2016. And I'm in Burlington, Vermont.

00:13 Hi, my name is there jumonville. I'm 30. Today's date is August 12th. 2016. I'm in Burlington Vermont and my relationship to my partner is she's my best friend. She's my best friend, too.

00:29 So Sarah, can you tell me about how you evolved on the path to where you are in your work life in my work life it began when I was 15 years old and I was sent to live with my uncle for the summer and I haven't ever talked to my parents about this, but I was wonder if there is some underlying.

00:53 Motive for them sending me away for the summer, but maybe they just knew I was antsy and angsty and needed something other than a small town Wisconsin summer. And so I went to live with my uncle who is an artist sculptor and a metal fabricator. And where is this that you're going? This is in Bloomington, Illinois and

01:19 It was kind of come work with me in the shop. If you like working in the shop great. And then in the afternoons, I would watch my cousin who is too at the time, but I've always been interested in arts and making and Sperry tactel productive things. And so I think that's why he thought of me as being a potentially Goods shop mates. And I know I had never welded before I never worked with metal before and I just you know, he set me up with gloves and helmet and I just talk to it like a duck to water. It was one of the most interesting and challenging things to learn and I'm still learning a lot about it, but I think at that age it made me feel very Invincible when you can feel very

02:18 Invisible, so definitely. Do you have some memories of those early ways that you made things are like to work with ya ya very, you know rudimentary, you know, you're growing so you're learning about your body learning that your strengths and metal is very can be unwieldy but also really hard to work with so it was challenging is always challenging and

02:47 I think you know just discovering of substance that I was learning about and being scared at the same time lighting a torch to cut it to make it molten metal and Sparks going in my shoe. Like that's something that's like as a 15 year old.

03:07 But I loved it and it was terrifying and and great but skill-wise as far as the trades go. You're always learning. So those first few years, you're just kind of figuring out what makes sense and how to use what you've got to feel like the dangerous part of the appeal for you. I don't know. I don't think so because I mean maybe obviously there is part of me that gets an adrenaline rush out of that but I've never thought of it is like that like when people are like a rock climb because I get a rush from being on the side of a cliff like I don't get a rush from it, but I think it's more this internal.

03:53 It's like an internal.

03:56 Satisfaction and of knowing that I did overcome a fear, you know this morning. I was using a really scary stop at work cutting up metal and it's totally freaks me out the whole time. I was using it even though you know, it's it's cool that I know and I feel confident using there still that level of I'm doing something that I could get really hurt at and nobody can see Sarah but if you meet her her arms and legs and sometimes her torso are covered in an assortment of Burns and wounded and missing nails so that definitely speaks to for me like that. The physical challenges has a few risks inherent in your job and what part of stove

04:49 When we come home from work, we're coming from really different experiences of what we just did and I was 9 hours. I work at a desk and Sara. I haven't asked you where you work. I work at Conant Medellin light. And so when you come home, you just done very physical labor all day and how does kind of the movement and they're like body driven aspect of your job affect how you think about yourself and I think about your work. Yeah make you feel it feels good most of the time except when I do lose a nail which has only happened once and but it makes me feel good music makes me feel good because for me making something and fabricating something I'm using my body and I'm seeing a tangible result of what I'm using my body to make and that is pretty immediate.

05:49 Cool, you know you can write an email in like know I was using my brain to write that email but it's like not the same as feeling like I worked to do this and I did lose that nail Tomika, you know, and it's not even as if I look at that thing and then like I said thing that I lost my nail to you know, it's like it's something that's just a reflection of that effort in the challenge of it. So, you know, which I love I love the challenge even when it does incur mean Awards and things like that. It sounds like your body is almost like another tool. Yeah. Definitely. I'm always curious and I have asked you this sometimes like if that changes how you think about your body versus and especially if you think that is a tool that can be applied to your work with girls and mentoring and women and how do you

06:49 I like the trades kind of impact body identity. And yeah the same in that way. I mean I think using the trades and working with your hands making something challenging your body in that way definitely instills more confidence. I mean as much as it can be challenging to

07:10 Do that for some people I think.

07:13 Because it is such a direct.

07:16 Results of what you cut or what you welded and you use your body to do that. I think that's great for girls to see especially and

07:31 For me currently at 30 iefiel still weirdly subjected, of course to the ways that we think women should look and how society and social media has presented the ideals that you know, there are moments when I really love my biceps and I'm like I use them and I need them. I value them and babe help me do my job. There are other times when I'm like I don't feel like sheepish about them are shy, you know, and so when I was teaching at Rosie's girls doing the trades welding Camp part,

08:12 You know, I always talk to the girls about being safe first of all and protecting your body but also learning about it and knowing what his capabilities are in being part of those capabilities. And if that makes you have big biceps, that's good, because that is more valuable than sitting in whatever in a way that someone says you should feel like I should probably rewinds how did you get involved with roses girls? What is it? How long how did you do it Rosie Girls is a day camp for Middle school-age girls. It's changed a little bit recently, but it used to be a three-week day camp using the phrase is a vehicle for what we're talking about instilling confidence in in that age group of girls so that they can kind of figure out you know, it's not as if

09:14 They're all going to go out and become a carpenter or electrician or welder. I never expect that or expected any of the girls that I taught to, you know fall in love with welding the same way that I did. I hope some of them dead but

09:28 So so are these guys uses trade? They have carpentry blocks and Welding blacksad electrical and then also kind of sections where they would talk about how women were presented in the media and you know at that age in Middle School, you do start to shed your younger self and social things at school start to become much more apparent. And and so it's kind of a safe space for those Girls 2.

10:01 Become more aware of themselves and more aware of what Society is telling them to be or how to look or how to access and so the trades are great because because of that physical aspects and using I made this like may I use my brain and my body to make this and it was challenging and it was scary but I did it, you know, and it's like that is very cool. How does that look like or what? Did you see that in over the evolution of the three weeks or even the three days that I taught them? Well, do you know some girls the first day or totally freaked out and you know crying, you know, and I'd always be like this is really scary, you know, and I would say things like I'm scared all the time. It's a good to be scared of these things. It shows that you respect the tools you respect the equipment and you have to be on your guard. That being said I always

11:01 Challenge them you know, if a girl is scared to try the plasma cutter try the welder I'd say, you know, I'm going to do it you can watch you know, see what you think and then if you don't get your hand in there if you want to do this is just like something to try like no pressure. The only pressure is the pressure you're putting on yourself, you know of like am I going to mess up or I mean and also the fear I guess if I'm going to hurt potentially.

11:29 But you know after so some girls on the first day, we're always do, you know kind of like a very nervous and not knowing what to expect and Welding is still one of those trades that I think not many people know about and it's essential in our lives everyday.

11:46 But by the third day, they'd be like running into the shop wanting to get going on their projects and we would create these crazy creatures out of metal and they just so you know, so getting that creative aspect into into it was really fun and seeing that being a result for them. I think was really satisfying so

12:14 Was there anyone who?

12:16 How to instill that confidence in you and you're going up and if not, we're there any challenging times for you to gain the confidence, please.

12:25 Yeah, so there was no one I was with C15 and had lived with my uncle for the summer and came back to his constant and somehow convince my parents that they needed to buy me a welder very generous of them. And I think they didn't know what to expect cuz the very academic I can I come from a very pretty traditional academic family and they're like, yeah sure. Let's set your welding in our wooden garage, you know, we were so clueless in some ways we did fireproof it but you know, I have memories of being out there in the summer just kind of putzing around and experimenting and starting my collections of metal bits and pieces and thinking about

13:23 Making things and the neighborhood boys would walk down the alley and I like shark into the corner and close the garage door cuz I didn't want them to see me me and they cuz I think I felt sheepish and shy about it. And then I also just didn't want to

13:41 You know probably have them think of me is this weird thing? You know first. I thought I was like this weird thing. I felt like very much an outsider in that neighborhood. And did you think that you be intimidating and no not at all and I don't even sometimes I don't even think that now I just I mean now I accept the fact that it is who I am and I just do it and I try and approach other welders and mostly men to just like very, you know, kind of straightforward and I'm on the same page as you even though they probably I don't know what they're thinking but

14:23 I think with the neighborhood kids there was just one of those things where I

14:29 Didn't know anyone else that was doing it and

14:34 They didn't have a mentor to call back in front of them if they were like, oh like what are you doing? And do you know and to some and I feel like I was still learning about what I was doing, you know in like figuring out I didn't have the confidence then to say what I can now 15 years later if I'm a metal fabricator and welder, and I know what I know and

14:59 Being also is very shy and in high school. I'm sure we had shop welding class, but I didn't even go to it cuz it was just a more traditional High School where I don't know you just you do art and music and C are in good English class and I like I was interesting because I feel like

15:24 Having grown up in the family that I did which is great and I'm not an academic person and it the school. I went to wasn't like a tech center that had this option to push people in different ways. It was very much kind of there's a good classes. There's a bad classes and you know shop and making things wasn't really a part of any of that. It was there I think but it was not as valued maybe as I think it is definitely here in Vermont and which is a great tech center programs all over the state.

16:02 Do you think people were tracked at least in that time into trades versus more academic Pursuits based on perceived levels of intelligence or creativity and it didn't really allow for respecting kind of the importance and weight of each field. And yeah, I think definitely I think there was you know, people probably whose parents were plumbers probably were more like in the shop room, you know rather than you know myself being in the I don't know if I like science lab, which I loved at the time too, but it's like I think a lot about

16:45 Going from there to college which was also you know, I've never taken that for granted and was a great experience. But at the same time and just I think I was following a track that I thought I needed to be following because my sister found that my parents follow that and I was just the norm, you know for that but I think it would have been interesting if I had just kind of gone right into a trade school welding and had four more years of experience doing that as opposed to after-the-fact trying to develop my skills by myself and I'm lucky enough when I move to Burlington 8 years ago to work for a few different sculptors and they became my mentors and learning from them and being challenged by making something for someone else and

17:42 Yeah, so that's it. So so since I would say probably the age of 22, I've had more more mentorship Sands people that I have learned from where I think the first formative years were much more kind of me. Just kind of

18:01 Figuring out on my own which is good. But at the same time it's like maybe one of them would and giving someone the opportunity or seeing me at least seeing another person doing it then coming from maybe a similar place or not even a similar place.

18:28 You know, I would give them the confidence that I didn't have to pursue it sooner or to learn what it meant to them. You know, I think it took me a while to really accept the fact that I do work with my hands like I love reading and I love doing other academic things, but I'm not

18:49 Not that's not the way my brain works mean. I'm a Problem Solver and an engineer and

18:58 You know those types of things I think are more how I am and so helping girls realize that sooner. I think you know, I would never want a girl to have the same experience that I had of like feeling not lost but just like this is this new thing. That's very interesting. I don't know what it means to me. I'm just going to see where it goes which is fine for some things but it's also kind of if there's someone there you know, what do you think if you think back of yourself at their ages 11 or 12? What would it have taken for you like to have been enough to have a role model to see a woman welder or to be exposed to actually trying it the way that the girls at Camp get a chance to actually test it out or does it need to be like more of a sustained effort? Do you think rather than just

19:50 Seeing someone in town that you know, does that what do you imagine would be enough to kind of give girls that opportunity feel confident enough to pursue something there. Yeah may be interested or maybe never even thought about yeah, I think

20:10 I think at that age in that time it probably does make more sense for it to be a school thing, you know have

20:20 Guidance counselors are teachers be more aware of these potential.

20:28 Projects that people could get interested in and and that having a community kind of effort of

20:38 Breaking down those barriers of this is what you do and this is what your parents did and that's why you should do it and you know all across the board, you know, a lot of people aren't meant to be in the trades just as much as a lot of people aren't meant to be and Academia and it takes a while to figure that out. And I think it's the system that does really sometimes pigeonhole kids into being

21:04 Certain ways based on their history and their lives and who they are, but I think the important thing in but Rosie's cuz is great about is just doing what makes you feel good and doesn't still that confidence in you says how to questions. What is a great day at work feel like and is that the same feeling you got when you did welding with your uncle that first summer?

21:32 A great day at work feels like

21:37 Starting in the morning having a plan that's many steps and doing that plan and everything turning out great happens. Maybe one day out of the year.

21:53 But that's also the joy of it is that's the problem solving in the unexpected and that makes you better fabricator and welder and then at the end of the day having that item having that thing and often times and I'm making something or working on a project I think about someone else looking at it and I know they're not looking at it in the same way as I am because they didn't make it but knowing that they are maybe thinking about something else or getting some satisfaction out of it really makes me feel great. And so a great day at work is

22:29 Feeling like I did a good job and and

22:34 Succeeded in my plan

22:39 And yeah, I think it does feel like the first time that I was living with my uncle just doing that project. We were working on a beautiful railing for a stairwell that has a Vine and it came out great and it we went and installed it at the customer's house and it was just very satisfying to see them happy and then also to see the work that we had done changing something and a place so that permanent can an aspect of things that we use is really really great. What is it that you spend most of your time making?

23:23 At work these days most of the time I spend making lights which is all so unexpected. And so there's an electrical component, which is another exciting.

23:38 Soccer literally literally and so we make lights and we do a lot of work for hospitality and so bigger production fabrication of a lot of the same thing and then we also do custom work so big custom jobs be that a fixture or a table, you know, a lot of people it depends it totally depends but for me right now is fabricating production, which is fascinating because they're there are

24:20 You know seven of us that work in the back of the shop there and everyone has a different brain and different ways of doing things and all good. All of them are good ideas. Do you know you can always do one act even if it's does the whole get drilled now or does it get drilled two steps later what let's talk about that. So I love that like I love that problem solving and and that aspect of fabricating something and making something is with the best way with the most time efficient way a cost-efficient way and it's just a fascinating world that I feel like I'm still always learning about mention cost-efficient. It makes me think of business which it is that you work for and I'm curious how it feels going from working with metal in a mostly artistic capacity for pleasure as a hobby to doing it.

25:20 As your career and profession and in corporate model and what are the challenges of that kind of leap? Yeah. It's very challenging because time is money time is money and when it's not your money and it's a customer that's expecting something that can be really stressful and it really is like one day out of the year that something amazing turns out exactly as you planned. So it's it's in making something always a challenge of

25:59 You know the process the order and time money, it can be stressful. It can be really stressful and just as much as it can be rewarding. So it is in some projects and emotional rollercoaster of like oh crap like this part is not going to work and I have to make 30 of this and I just made this part and that's two hours down the drain so but that's business but it's like, you know, we account for that happening when we do estimates and things like that, but at the same time it is

26:38 I internalize a lot because I think I do feel so much. Like this is my identity as a maker and a welder in a metal worker that something doesn't turn out the way I wanted to it can really kind of get inside my head and everyone at work knows that and I think that was like don't you know, just like what's like just you know, like but didn't work out like what's the next step just keep going, you know, just keep working and going don't you know agonize over that not working out but still working on that.

27:13 I think it's a great misconception out there that people with office jobs who take their computers home and check email at night are working around the clock and that you clock punching tradespeople. Leave it at work. I think that's yeah the case at all. Yeah, it's very I mean even at a factory job they're going to want you to welder about you know, 20 of a item and if you can't do that, you're off the line, you know, it's so all across the board when it comes to production and people making things it's yeah, definitely. I think everyone takes their work home with them.

27:57 There are very many female role models to get girls interested in these trades. But once you're in the trade, it is also very male-dominated. I would assume and

28:09 Yeah, so I have been extremely fortunate in that my encounters being a woman in a male-dominated field have not been wholly.

28:24 Terrible like I think

28:28 At least not to my face and you know, that's the thing I guess is it's most of the men I've interacted have been very respectful. However, that being said I do feel like sometimes I have to be more Smiley when I'm talking about something or approaching.

28:50 Topic or trying to put my foot down on the way that I want to do. Something is like a way which I think is like, you know mend I think don't feel that way as much when there exists in the trades of determining do it this way or do it that way where they think is a woman often times. We try and like use our emotions to kind of Disguise our insecurities or

29:15 Not together and here is but kind of exactly exactly and and you're being a people-pleaser in that you you know, so I'm still working a lot on how to not smile when I'm like talking about what I think is important or I really believe it to be at this way because because of that aspect of it I think as far as sexual harassment goes there have only been a few instances that that happens and

29:54 One fairly recently that was addressed and the person being came up to me and said that shouldn't have happened and you know, we all talked about it and we had a big meeting about it. And you know, that was just something that that shouldn't have been said but none the less I can't help but feel like like it was my fault like did I say something was I wearing something that day, you know, it's that prompted that and

30:32 Do you know there's it's

30:35 It's extremely challenging. It's going into even sometimes the welding supply store. Like I feel you know there I can almost hear them being like what she going to ask for, you know, and how they're going to respond to that is probably different than a man walking in there and

30:56 But for the most part everyone that I have worked with has been very very respectful and and valued my thoughts. So what was the environment like at welding school when you went to the advanced welding institute as the sole females in your class the attitude there was like no other

31:23 But how I would imagine if I were to go work?

31:29 In a more kind of you know structural welding job around the pipeline how it would be a lot of talk about sex and a lot of talk about you no hands can all sorts of things, you know, and it's just like one-on-one all of those guys were so great and we became really close so, you know, six months 40 hours a week learning together is a very bonding experience and they not every one of them knew how to weld I knew more than some of them at the beginning of class and at the end at the end of the most certifications

32:17 The one-on-one it was great. But as a group, they definitely got that group mentality and of just going down that road of

32:31 It also could have been the age group, you know, 20 to 30 year old.

32:38 Guys, I don't know. I think it's a funny time for everyone, but I think especially for that curve for men.

32:49 We're still friends some of us but I think and I would definitely do it again and I would challenge other girls to do it. I do know that some girls went to that school and had very terrible experiences and there was a lot more.

33:03 Sexual harassment and I don't know if it's something about the way I interacted with us or if I left out with my classmates, but I did always feel like they did respect me and we value to each other. So I think I was lucky in that way. But you know for someone who is maybe more shy AR doesn't know how to put their foot down or stay like this but don't say that like why do you say that? You know, like a very challenging environment. What would you tell someone who is trying to go down that path and start that any hot tips for a girl Born to Run male-dominated and trade? Yeah, I would say

33:58 Ask questions

34:02 I feel like I have gathered the most knowledge and also earned the most respect from people.

34:14 By asking questions because people like to be asked questions specially in the trades because everyone's brain work so differently and their knowledge is is always accumulating at different rates and I'm by asking questions. I think it makes them feel valued and

34:33 Makes them

34:36 Interested in you as a person who also feels that or wants to learn that I think.

34:46 I don't know. It's hard. It's

34:53 I know that I've applied for jobs that I a in metal shops that I have not gotten probably because of being a woman even though I think.

35:05 You know, they always say women and minorities. Please apply. It's like why would anyone so I think sometimes shops and businesses and I don't get a woman in here cuz that'll real everything up for a mess everything up and I think that's just I don't even know if that's possible at this point in our society of I think it takes time.

35:35 May think it takes the right kind of shop to kind of have that and totally generalize that you know, like there are definitely shops that are like the one I work at completely respectful and everyone is equal.

35:51 But

35:53 I think

35:55 Pursuing if your woman going into male-dominated Fields learning everything you can about that asking questions finding a good Mentor probably would be great and just get a thick skin now, it's I think

36:17 Something that's always going to be present. Unfortunately. I don't know. I hope not but I think it is.

36:27 My last question. So I like to take friends visiting our town on tours of all the work that you've done since there's pieces of you in restaurants and unsigned on buildings all around town and I like to take them on my wife tried to her. What are you most proud of about your work? It doesn't have to be a thing but

36:51 Is it something intangible that you able to been able to overcome or at the end of the day? What has this work giving you?

37:01 I think the work has given me.

37:06 The

37:10 Aspect of like thinking about myself and you know people say they are their work sometimes and I am but I'm not but I am and I think as far as

37:27 Being at the end of the day it is the things I've made but it's it's the continual learning and I think that's what it gives me is is this like learning and problem-solving and thinking about how some things made how it could be made differently and I need that. I think I need that to feel like a complete person and I don't always feel like a complete person. But for the most part, I think feeling like I am using my brain to its full capacity and I didn't ever get exposed to anything else that made me feel that way. So that's why

38:14 The tangibility of making something

38:17 That's I think but it has become for me. I need that brain at home to hang things on the wall.

38:29 Thanks for sharing all those thoughts with me. Thank you for asking questions. We love you. I love you, too.