John Forde and Catherine Day

00:05 My name is Katherine Reed day. I'm 64 years old today's date is October 1st. 2017 a location is st. Paul Minnesota and my relationship to my partner is that we are married.

00:27 Names blank ear mites John 40. I'm 59. Today's date is October 1st 2017 when St. Paul Minnesota and my relationship to Catherine is that she is my tactile associate.

00:40 So I wanted to ask you what do you remember about the night we met.

00:48 For some reason I had great anticipation. It was just going to be a good party. It was a recent Macalester alumni party. And for some reason I invited my friend build a come along and we went to this gallery and

01:06 Get in there. I don't know 15 minutes or something and I noticed this hot red woman across the red. I'll just say woman in the red dress with hot legs.

01:24 And we made eye contact and I Strode towards you and you Strode towards me and that's a good sign and you know, you introduced yourself as working at McAllister, and I introduce myself as I didn't know had some cover story. I'm still developing the cover story of all and I told you I was reading a book called how to watch TV and it seemed to amuse you and you gave me your card.

01:59 And I walked out of the building and Bill later reports that the second we get out of sight and put gas and and then you know, it's kind of faded from and because I had had something to drink and I woke up the next morning actually quite hungover, and I looked at the side of the bed. I rolled over his head Katherine Reed Dave vice-president Macalester College. I thought what happened to me?

02:26 So why did you ask I forgot to remember that Bill had a video camera with with him. Is that possible? 89 and what do you what do you have had? I don't know why I remember that talk about that was a way to meet chicks in 1989. The most important thing was the size of the camera at that time bigger was better really big. Yeah. Okay. Well that for some reason that's in my memory. And so when you say you were writing it, why did you say that you were writing a book on how to watch TV? Cuz I sort of was I was taking notes about how television deceives you and how to protect yourself.

03:08 Impressive writing it is the word writing it before.

03:14 And so I wondered if you'd be willing to talk about you know, you're a little bit of your origin story because it it kind of ties to that topic about how television to see if you could you talk about where you grew up and what a couple of your early memories were are Drew up in the west suburbs of the Twin Cities in the 1960s and I describe it as the land of perfect insulation because everyone was white and no one ever got divorced. However, the household would just disappear and years later. We thought they got divorced but there was no visible conflict any where my family is very conflict-averse. I know they had was a fabulous place to grow up because I felt so secure cause me to take lots of stupid chances later in life. My father was an actuary

04:05 And so even though he was quite traditional and conservative. He taught me how to calibrate risk that it.

04:13 It's perfectly fine to burn your fingers or do something stupid and wake up cold wet and hungry is not find a break your neck. So I learn to calibrate risk.

04:25 Well, I have a memory of a dream that you had something you wanted to be and also up a trail story from your Early Childhood Johnny Carson and the airplane.

04:43 30 words that are playing stories of the cereal box you saved all those bite you if you grew up really close to General Mills the headquarters you play I never thought about that but you were you were getting advertisements for collecting box tops of cereal and airplane how to get an airplane and in the commercial with flu and you know, I got it it was just this, you know shooter airplane that you could throw through the sky, but it was kind of tumble and overhead and so that I was kind of crushed that it didn't really fly.

05:20 Yeah, and so was it and you would you would seem to the TV commercial sense of betrayal?

05:32 And so when you were thinking about I guess I connected to that that the book you are writing or said you were writing about how to watch TV cuz it seems like there was an a route that went back to that but trailed it informed you about why you decided to start thinking about

05:54 The TV show you eventually did always been fascinated by commercials. I remember being 7 8 years old and just wondering why do they get to lie like that? Why is there no rebuttal and as I got older and more sophisticated, I realize that it isn't lies. It's just an Endless River of half-truths is puffery the way you don't deal with human beings eye-to-eye, but in the world Commerce buffers essential and babe, that's why I'm not built for Converse. I'm built for cancer.

06:25 So when I was wondering if you took us a long time to actually go from dating to engagement to getting married and and then we had a kid and along that way. Can you tell me what you were doing for work during that time on and off and I think ultimately it was like 18 years from 77 to 95 or something like that. I finally stopped and I enjoyed it tremendously. It was it expose me to the city in a way that a lot of people don't and you know, all kinds of fascinating anecdotes and interesting accents and

07:10 You don't foolishness, but it's greedy. And apparently I like pretty classy place. I just feel like the carpet hurts my flippers. I'm a fish out of water from class.

07:24 Well, I was wondering what made you decide to start doing things in media. How did you kind of transition or where did that come about?

07:37 You and Carol started doing the radio stuff at how did that even get started the

07:54 I'm lucky in that my parents love me, even though they didn't understand me and that they were sufficiently prosperous that when I was about thirty. They said you you spinning your wheels. Why don't you get a psychological assessment in career assessment? And so I went and I saw it.

08:13 Top rated career counselor in the Twin Cities and he gave me a battery of tests.

08:18 And that when I came back in to get him read the first question, he asked me was how much do like money and I said I had to work ethic Emily to work Hardee's in them. That's not the question. How much do you like money? I said I like buddy and he laughed in my face.

08:43 And that was quite High opening for me. I'm in that, you know, I don't piss it away, but I don't chase it like that. That's where the meaning of life is the meaning of the interpersonal.

08:57 So anyway because he go to grad school in Psychology. It seemed like a good path having now learn something about vocational psychology.

09:07 And as I was graduating that I met Paul wellstone the press secretary and she heard me being you know, it kind of my boisterous loud self and she said you should be the liberal Rush Limbaugh and I thought to myself, you know, I could spend the rest of my life working for an HMO that I hate but sick people for $8 an hour, or I could go into radio and over the course of a weekend. I thought that's a really good idea and three weeks later. I'm a sidekick on morning drive on the only hot talk station in the Twin Cities and that was eye-opening and six months later at my exit interview. They told me you're too weird for radio, which was a crushing thing to hear and fortunately at that point my wife.

09:51 Who's here? Give me a lot of questions. I do you start a TV show that looks at commercials from the public side and is honest on a whole new scale and you know over the course that fall I learned a lot of the basics of how to do it. And in December of 97. I sat down with four friends and we played a commercials and we talked about each one for about five minutes and we nailed it right from the start. This is the way people actually talk about commercials and these are insights that the public can use and just have fun with it.

10:35 And we decided to just keep making shows and I've kind of Forgotten all the backstory but we we made copies of the tapes and we mail them around the country and 15 different cities ran on there public access and then I actually thought well, let's just try and do this professionally and we made 13 episodes and put them on the Public Television Satellite and to our astonishment 50 broadcast stations picked it up.

11:08 And then we took it to the next level. We started making them at PBS and A Hundred stations picked it up and publicity took off like a rocket and we got tremendous praise and I got a half page on the New York Times and Charlie Rose producer called and asked would you like to dance Charlie Rose? And I said really slimy off and they said no and I said, well, I'm not going to New York and I call back the next day that I am going to be in, New York.

11:36 And I was on Charlie Rose and that was quite an eye-opening experience as well as opening a lot of parently my pupils were conscripted another dilating and you know, we made a Super Bowl special where we pissed away the essential equivalent of a college education in 30 minutes, but it was a very high-risk Venture because we could not select the commercial the commercials were handed to us with two days to go and we didn't really have the ability to select interesting commercials or the time to analyze and we did the best we could but that felt like a tremendous failure to me.

12:21 And then

12:24 There was a long and regnum a couple years and then I figured out how to make shows that should cost $10,000 a week and we figured out how to make him for 400 by eliminating all the personnel and having an adult in the control room in a fourteen-year-old on the floor and putting in extra cameras and automating audio and I just bowed to continue to make sure it was him. We made ultimately 140 episodes and was carried weekly on about a hundred PBS stations and we had tremendous Talent on the show. We had the creators of the Simpson and The Daily Show with Senator Al Franken on we had big comedians like Louis CK and Jim Gaffigan and Paula Poundstone.

13:05 And at that point I just kept making shows and

13:10 One of the waste rifle to control costs is because you pay separately from for the station to up link to the satellite and then a separate roughly $100 and episode 52 the satellite company, but the Uplink station told us they knew where there was free space available and we squatted on a satellite for years. We've never received an invoice.

13:37 How to stop there

13:40 Yeah, that was so what was the name of the show rental engineering and we have been producing the show for?

13:50 Probably a year before someone explain the title to me it because it's what they're doing to us. We are not the middle injury because I'm pressing the metal Engineers. Where's the middle in the middle Engineers are the psychologist and you know media professionals who study the weaknesses and and pray on the public and example from a commercial with Ice-T and I would just watch a lot of Television looking for commercials to play on the show and we had Sam Simon the creator of The Simpsons on this particular episode, but I tied sock commercial for Snickers Methodist, stupid when I can do that commercial.

14:30 In the commercial of a man is wearing a toupee made of Snickers less seems totally stupid.

14:40 Any excuse courts can find him and we know your fault. He's like what and then later you see him in the parking ramp crying if he removes his toupee a Snickers commercial commercial because the mental Engineers know the people who make commercials know people don't eat Snickers when they're hungry. They ate Snickers when they're lonely and that guy was the loneliest guy in the world and that's the kind of really

15:14 Manipulative emotion that comes to our televisions and is being bad ass all the time.

15:20 So when you decided to do the show, one of the things you were being mean people talked about it. So the first while we were known as the first show that went from cable access to Prime Time and it was you know of the first media literacy show, but we kind of danced around between wanting to identify with that and not but we know what you're talking about. There is the

15:48 Yeah, why is it important to why was it important to to deconstruct commercials? And and why was it important to the panelists to deconstruct them cuz that that's what you were doing. You were taken apart and saying like you just said know that

16:05 Where are commercials playing on our loneliness our emotions are disenfranchisement our aspirations? You know, why is it important?

16:14 We can't leave athletic are we an entertainment product or an educational product? Cuz the revenue model for either was very difficult.

16:25 What was the question?

16:27 I just trying to get it. Why was it a little bit around the purpose and meaning of what y'all was there?

16:35 What why were you so dedicated to why did it why was it so important to keep pushing on that show?

16:42 Because it makes a difference in people's lives the values they commit to and the values that are painted for us are superficial people get mean for their shoes their identities in their shoes. And I think that disrupts actual human connection your your means in your kids not in your

17:06 Fashion

17:10 But somehow through repetition and imagery they're able to dissuade us from what's really important and to What's France actable?

17:24 So

17:26 Can you you've mentioned a lot of names or at least association's? You know, how did you people often asked how we did this, you know and I'm going to say we because it was kind of a family Enterprise was very much yours, but you know how our family was young and small and and it and you did so much of it by yourself, but we we did it. I have been working and radio at the time and so we had a little bit of media background in our our history. But neither of us had formerly done anything and yet we launched but turned out to be a national TV show essentially out of the living room. You know, where did how do we how do we do that and what it it?

18:11 Feeling look like bird by bird because I thought I'd try it and it just kept working. But it also required a great deal of learning about the technical and

18:34 The executive producer Stuff how to manage inventories and timelines and people and how to get them in the same room and make that conversation and put it on tape and have it well, they're decent audio and timed and edited and shipped which learned all those things and cable access. It was a tremendous opportunity to do something.

18:59 Good for the world and did we didn't know how to do and yet provided a facility.

19:07 And lot of knowledge to a lot of knowledge and people really liked working on it with us. That was one of the things that was fun. I was thinking it'd be nice to think about all the the doors that open for us along the way you've mentioned in the number of them. But you know, you went from kfai Radio doing the news with this woman. I don't even know if you'd met how you'd even better Carol critchley walked in the door and and the next thing you know, she became our professional producer of the show, you know, we don't really remember how that happened. I asked her and so she was willing to go with us and clearly cable access, you know, spnn in St. Paul was in a nice facility and it was known as one of the best cable access and you're right next door to Twin Cities public television, and I had association with public. What's now Public Radio International me. We knew people in the field, but we also didn't know anything. So I mean I was thinking about

20:07 All the doors, you know the First Investors and us people who are willing our first Fiscal Agent cuz we had to raise money. We had some money that came to you that we used but can you can unpack a little bit of what you remember about who was there for us?

20:31 You know, we really got we got one gift of $45,000 from a California millionaire in the Telecom industry and you just said keep doing what you're doing. He said this is the one time I can't do it again, but that is what made our first professional season possible and I asked him about it when I met him later and he said, you know, I don't have to remain anonymous it's not strict, but I prefer men that just made a huge difference for us.

21:01 So funny, we remember such different parts. I kind of had forgotten about that and that came because they saw the show you got you met Bill Moyers at some point and Bill and Doris the show I just met him at

21:15 The PBS conference and you know, I should use myself and the New York Times article was 6 weeks old or something. He said I've been waiting to meet you and then the president of PBS why he said John produces most interesting weekly half hour of social commentary and criticism on television.

21:35 Which astounded me?

21:39 And go to the Grateful to Bill Morris for the help you gave us.

21:44 I'm incredibly grateful to help Samsung and gave us I met Sam Simon at the Aspen Comedy Festival and he was just sitting in the lounge at the main Hotel there. And yeah, yeah, you know, I just sent you know what he looks like Hollywood and I said, my name is John 14 of producing the show and I talked about myself for 7 minutes. And then he said I work on the show called the same since I went. Oh shit, you were that Sam and then Drew Carey walked out then they went out to dinner together best friend and

22:31 You know, we we emailed and we send out a fundraising letter and his assistant said let her back saying Sam doesn't want to give you money. What's beyond the show that's like 3 come tomorrow and he did he came to Minnesota.

22:46 How many 16 episode 8. How many times did he come and came eight times for the lyrics game? Cuz I did 2 episodes every time we taped.

22:54 And he fell in love with our little girl, you know, he loved our daughter. He loves to show he loved the people he was on with can you just talk about how you would cast a show? Cuz that was something you really known for cuz we were doing this on the total shoestring. So we weren't flying anyone in just about there being gender-balanced. I insist on there being an academic and a comedian or somebody pretty funny on each episode 2 typically get the touring comedian who is playing at the Acme Comedy Club comedians on the always wanted to be on the show.

23:34 That's how we got Louis CK. I met a lot of the comedians at the Aspen Comedy Festival, which was astounding I mean, you know, I miss Bill Maher and Stephen Colbert and Chris Rock, you know, all these people be at the Comedy Festival cuz nobody really knew about it was an industry event and then just ended one year which was kind of unfortunate but me people there and then when they came to town to play either big concerts are at the Acme we would get them on.

24:09 And then since Aunt what was Sam so dedicated to the show. I don't know if you know Sam personally wrote the first two years of the sentence single-handedly and then he started hiring staff and he was there into the fifth year and then he you know, basically creative differences. He got something like a third of the profits for for life.

24:36 And the river was he was getting a million dollars a month and he said he was deeply dedicated to eliminating animal cruelty. So that's where he left his fortune unfortunate passed away of cancer 2 years ago, but he was one of the most important people I've ever met and how to change the Arc of my life.

24:59 Yeah, and how old was Carol when we got to go we get to visit him in Malibu and he invited us to stay in his sister has been invented and she was fine and you know, you could write it up and down the not technically closed street, but pretty close to a gated community. Very very safe Aldi Stars right there. Anyway, she took the Segway which you know, tell me nobody has seen before and she was 9 years old and she got like three blocks away and it ran out of battery and even though it outweighed her like three when she dragged it all the way back if she knew how valuable it was it what a good character kid we have.

25:42 So do you think that you know what it was a family business for us and was a family thing that you know, I had a job and but you know Saturday's we taped the show and I'm dumb we had Al Franken on when he was still a comedian right and then he decided to run for office and so Kara would come because she was little I mean we didn't have that we couldn't afford babysitting and she would come and be in the

26:11 Outside room with me and I mean, what was that? What do you think? It's what impact do you think it had on her?

26:20 I don't know. She knew her parents were kind of a typical and it exposure to a lot of very interesting people and you know, we didn't have on anybody who was an asshole. You know, she met famous people and find out that their people.

26:39 I think I was pretty healthy for her.

26:42 I'm sure there are famous assholes. But one of my great memories was driving Jim Gaffigan, you know to the show picked him up at the hotel and it was when he had his he was that they were having their first child. It just had their first child and Carol wasn't that old? I mean she must have been around seven or eight by that time. And so the whole conversation was about parent and falling in love with your child and you know, it was so cool to have this and he was at the beginning Arc of his Fame but you know, just that was so fun for me personally to just basically being a mom talking about what it was like to fall in love with your child and he's not made his famous around, you know his for his big family and down but I remember Paula Poundstone baby pick up the car at the airport care was with us when I picked her up at the airport. That was kind of

27:38 But she fell in love with she loved kids. So then care was her to interviewed by Paula Poundstone is are in the car. Could we pick them up ourselves and Louis CK lost his iPhone that is his phone in my car. God only knows where he's like. I can't find my phone. I found it like, you know, 20 minutes later and he's like FedEx it to me my whole life.

28:13 That's funny. So, let's see. So we produced the show from you said it was 97. We made a few more episodes of never made made are

28:30 And dumb

28:33 I guess you know one of the things I was thinking about is it there were there were real highs with the show, but what are some of your highs that you remember?

28:47 The New York Times articles astounding loitering it was about how miraculous that was mean.

28:56 Cuz it wasn't supposed to be in the New York Times book to be in some other magazine the details details folded and

29:05 Then I get this phone call from Saul in New York. I need photos. Who are you? I saw your article that I need photos tomorrow and it turns out that the writer of the details article details folded but had paid her that end, so she resold it to the New York Times and they were going to run it in like 3 days and I didn't know anything of it. So it's the time for the time. I thought I was going to be in the New York Times to the Publications like 3 days we sent them photos. And they and what I remember to is that we were trying to explain to our five year old cuz she was five at the time that Daddy is in the New York Times, but I don't know what the New York Times is in remember holding the it open spread the spread and and the other article was about Cartoon Network and there were drawings of The Powerpuff Girls.

29:56 And so she looked on this side and she could see a picture of daddy, you know, that's my daddy and then over here are The Powerpuff Girls and she's like you could start to see her getting maybe this is kind of important day. Maybe I don't know. I thought that was a really sweet moment. Yeah, cuz I could see that she could process it and but at that led to the Charlie Rose, so that was a highlight.

30:24 What else do you think of?

30:31 You know, the people are all my lights. They were the low light was after the Super Bowl special which is kind of obvious. But I did the math. We spend $100 a second for half an hour with $120,000 in one episode and it was a tremendous Campbell and we hadn't properly calibrated that 911 was going to happen. Already committed and

31:02 I don't remember when we signed the papers, but I remember there were all those people in the room and we were like, wow, we're going to hire all these people to do this show for us. And then and we had a sponsorship person working with us and everything seemed so maybe that was really going to help us get the sponsors. We need it and and the whole country went conservative, you know everyone but we decided to double down on everything exactly and so it was shocking and I mean it even up to the minute that that show went on the air. Someone was thinking about sponsoring us remember that. Yeah, cuz you were too busy trying to produce the show is so I mean everything about that was a gamble I I take a lot of

31:46 Credit and blame for the idea

31:55 I don't really know how we got there. But it was that was hard. It was really hard time. I'd forgotten that we'd stop producing for a while all the costs out, but I can just keep snapping them out and we did we made another hundred episodes, but it was clear. We were never going to get funding and I was starting to realize that this is no growth. I feel like one of those tractor pulls where it's like holy buckets. I can pull this lb weighted full speed and then it gets slower and slower and used to work as hard as you can and then you're barely moving and then you're stopped and you're still working in after working for about three years and realize it's not going anywhere. Just slowly let go of the Rope.

32:38 I was one of the hardest things I ever did.

32:48 And when we talked about it, and I said, I'm just to go back to being a regular guy. I don't want to I don't want to produce another show. That's the show I wanted to make.

32:59 And people talk to us in a weekend imitations producer show on public radio and it's like I'm having ideas and then we watched them produce a show that had all kinds of fun. But no idea behind it. Like my goodness. We had an idea no money. They had money and no idea.

33:25 But that was that was my passion project, but it pales in comparison to my real passion project, which is my family.

33:36 And our daughter and our love for each other.

33:40 I'm so glad we made it through.

33:45 Good thing we didn't know.

33:50 You think so?

33:54 Or suicidal. That's what I meant.

34:00 That was long and hard and it's quadrus. But if you meet me be there, maybe that's the full circle looking at Savannah wondering if we've got another 10 minutes, but but it comes all the way back around the calibrating risk.

34:20 Nobody but me where we are now. We're in the top 1% of wealth, but in terms of quality of life when the top one tenth of 1% even though we we threw away, you know all of my savings and half of yours. We're still

34:37 Secure and loving life. But yeah, which could pick you up for?

34:44 And that's the calibrating risk that both of us learned probably from off all four of our parents.

34:53 In our position to do it again he ready.

35:01 Gosh, I had a couple of questions from that what happened to them?

35:10 Yeah, I guess what their couple things I was thinking about a mean one of the things we calibrated risk, and there were things we couldn't see I guess I want to talk about

35:19 How much technology both hurt us and and helped us and you know, when you think about when we did this I remember getting a call from the we were out on a walk and we had the one cell phone between us remember and we the phone rang and I mean we would get calls a lot because of all the publicity. I just want to remind you you are nominated for Peabody Award. That's another highlight. We thank no hole Holston the TV critic here who eventually work for the Peabody's but you were nominated, but I remember everything was Christian Science monitor. Somebody called. I remember one call like that. Were they say, could you give somebody get back to us from your publicity Department have the Cara cuz it was just you and me but

36:08 I was thinking about the technology that if if Because the Internet was nothing you just go back and so how many years ago did we start? It was 20 years ago and the iPhone to celebrate its Tenth anniversary. So I mean crowdfunding all the things that kind of came along later that he wrote everything. Yeah, the TiVo was there and so there was so many ways in which technology helped us and so many wait cuz it may we had satellite we had the Canadian rebroadcast casting. I can't even say that right member the only royalty checks we ever got cuz everyone thought we were going to get paid by PBS tenace Realty checks of what like about $2,000 a year because of the station in Buffalo reach the Toronto market and therefore we were providing educational content to the people of Canada and we will get a check.

37:09 Like three years. I know it was more than three years. I remember every I just every time I see their mailing like Canadians. Yay. They love us talk about they said how the audience feels about you still today.

37:35 At the viewer mail. I I put it away and I didn't look at it for like 7 years and I looked at it a couple years going to just made me cry. It just people loved the show.

37:46 Now and they still wish they had the shoulder still worse. I wish I could make it but there's just

37:53 The activation energy to restarted is you know, I had to be willing to if I had that you know, if your development and then staying money to do it, but it's just someone else trying to raise the money instead of us. Do you know every time it always seems to come back to what you guys do that? If you really want us to kill each other cuz that's how hard it was for us. I mean, it's still a little like, I mean, it's very emotional for me to talk about it's it's hard for you to do storycorps. Thank you for doing it.

38:33 Remember interviewing with the woman who wrote the article for the Christian Science Monitor and she said what you're saying is almost to real so put that in the article and then she did.

38:46 Yeah, it was so real but what do you think is the lasting Legacy of of the work we did in the work that you love so much.

38:59 I don't know now. Maybe that's why I was a boy Genius interview.

39:04 What effect did it have? It's just so incredibly intangible. We touched a lot of people we thought the love back in a lot of people we know we gave a lot of educational insights to people but that's the work of an educator. You know you people

39:20 Get something from you who did a commercial for?

39:26 We was Texaco and they're talking about some woman PhD doctor Sylvia Earle who's like a formalist researcher in fracking or something like that. Somebody not quite that disreputable. But then one of the two lines of the movie was

39:43 That was my booty. Tell me I said that that you know the oil industry extract resources and then sails away.

39:50 And

39:51 I I said the other next question to everybody. Wish they got an advance at 10 to prepare, you know, who else extract resources and sails away and one of our panelists professor Valerie Tiberius a philosophy professor said well, that's what I want my students to do.

40:10 Extract resources and sail away

40:15 As much as anything that makes me feel like what we did was incredibly meaningful.

40:22 I remember somebody's kid who sat in the I don't remember who it was at Leander. I don't know. I remember different kids who would sit in the

40:34 Hallway, you know and they watch the show in and how quickly it change their lies. I've somebody in the back of my head about this where they suddenly realized. What commercials were. I mean Eternal kids had that experience. We weren't marked, you know, people always say we say we had a show on public TV and they sell why don't watch TV, you know, I I remember that being one of my great frustrations, especially since I'd love radio so much but you don't even say oh, yeah, I don't watch TV, but but they said watch the show. I mean we know cuz all the viewer mail, but I also remember people talking about how it changed their perspective on things to remember and remember the one I'm thinking of the number of a couple of kids just really being changed with Ed Henry.

41:24 Henry in Washington DC it was Henry. Oh my gosh. That was my one of my best friends growing up and her son was just at that sweet spot of adolescence of like 12, when he at the had the sneaking suspicion the whole system was lying to him and then Along Comes a TV show that's like yours with the truth is and he's like wow.

41:50 So important it's not lucrative. It's important.

41:58 So you do you do see you see some like to see yes, but it's scattered.

42:10 Sa80 is pointing at the world. And I pointing at ourselves like that. You known as residual value the values in the hearts and minds of the people if we came in contact with and that I shouldn't minimize how they changed us.

42:28 Beta changes I like the idea of it being scattered because I immediately think I owe being from a agricultural State and Iowa funeral seeds.

42:40 Seeds grow big things. You know, I don't think we have any idea how many seats that she'll planted for people.

42:51 Was it worth having the heartache?

42:54 Heartache with hard

42:56 Still hard, isn't it?

42:59 Somebody told me it's as if we had a child who died and we never talked about it.

43:06 Message receipts right?

43:08 I'm really glad you decided to talk with me about it today or it was never any doubt. I would know the. Was that we wouldn't cuz we got to a cancellation. That's why we're here.

43:19 Hope that beat but for me, it was really important to minimize such an incredible investment of Our Lives.

43:30 We damn near lost our marriage over it and we never lost her kid to it. Thanks. Thankfully, you know, it made her life very rich, and it was painful and I don't really know why it's so painful.

43:47 Cuz honestly it was something all these assets were delivered to us and I can't figure out how to Cobham back together and make something out of it would have had you had an audience if you had access to all these brains you clearly have the skill to put it together just reformulated.

44:06 And that's that it didn't the breast the breast friends always, you know, it seemed like there were two years with a brass ring was just inches away. I mean, we had an underwriter who it was within our supporting us three quarters of a million dollars a year and then other actions what the weather blew it away. I don't know somehow it was always so close by

44:35 But it's it's very dear to me and it's really dear to me that that we got to create something like that together and I'm really really proud of what you did.

44:47 I love you. So I love you, too.