Kendra Wilson-Clements and Nicole McAfee

00:04 My name is Nicole McAfee. I am 28 today is March 2nd, 2018, and we're in Oklahoma City Oklahoma, and I had the pleasure of meeting Kendra at a joint event with matriarch and the ACLU of Oklahoma. I'm talking about intersections of indigenous identity and the criminal justice system.

00:25 And my name is Kendra Wilson Clements. I'm 44. Today's date March 2nd 2018. We are in Oklahoma City Oklahoma and is the Cole stated we are intersecting with with indigenous rights in ACLU discussing incarceration and and other important matters.

00:47 I'm so I think this is really exciting because it's a chance to get to know each other a little bit better to is activist to do some more work than intersecting squeezes. I know you from your organization matriarch in the work you do if they are tell me a little bit about what cause you to start that organization and and your passion around that sure. So I am a proud member of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma very tied to my tribe Traditions cultures and I had the had the privilege of my grandfather who was full-blood Choctaw and being able to at a very early age watching him and understanding are our culture. There was a divorce in early on in my family which tore me away. Unfortunately from that side of my family that was just 20 or so your Void and I are very quickly moved back from Dallas.

01:47 Texas to Oklahoma to reconnect to you my culture and people when I did that I met in the co-founder of matriarch Sarah Adams Cornell. She and I met over Pizza One Night in November of 2015 and started discussing all of the issues that were plaguing Indian country and what we could do to help impact in a positive way. We both had a passion for women's issues women's rights and particularly indigenous women and it made sense to form its nonprofit Group, which is called matriarch. We are on your two and have experienced some tremendous surprising awesome growth and we have a chapter in Oklahoma City and and have now in August of 2017 French. To Tulsa favorite chapter in Tulsa is well, really the the purpose and Mission.

02:47 Matriarch is to empower indigenous women we talked about we meet twice a month. We talk about things such as addiction incarceration domestic violence rape. We also talked about reconnecting with our culture. We have a beading classes cultural things that we do to kind of tires back into our ways. So it's a powerful group and his literally changed my entire life and we continue to do this until we take our last breath. So that's a little bit about matriarch to watch expand and grow. I'm lucky enough to know if you folks to have become members and really enjoy that the work you do and I have loved seeing the kind of growth and expansion to this sort of know your rights face and also this

03:48 Discussion around incarceration and where that in intersects with indigenous identity. Why is that a past that you was organization decided to pursue how did that come about? So Jason Lyons echo-hawk is a board member of matriarch also recently employed with the ACLU. She has always had a passion for incarceration as it relates to the indigenous Community because what we know is that there is a significant and disproportionate amount of indigenous people who are stuck in that prison system. So when talking with her I also have a family member who has been apart of the prison system for for about four and a half years that has cycled through that system three times and sew in talking about those issues Justin.

04:48 Some of our during our matriarch of meetings some of the spaces that we hold those things will pop up and discussion it almost feels as if there's not one of us women died in our matriarch group that has not in some form or fashion been touched by incarceration or the federal or state justice system. And so it made sense to put on a program that really focused on the intersection of incarceration and the indigenous community.

05:21 Yeah, I know. I said kind of dog into this issue here in Oklahoma specially folks. I know who practice in tribal court often talked about the difference in how Justice is served and kind of this idea around restorative justice. If you could rebuild the Oklahoma justice system from scratch. What what does Justice look like to you for me? It looks like the indigenous way the old way. I actually just left a panel focusing specifically on restorative justice as as under the the indigenous way what that looked like in right now what we're seeing in in and to answer the question how would I designed that system? It would be through Circle sentencing. It would be a focus on holistic healing approach. It would not be punishment heavy.

06:21 Lock the door and throw away the key would it would be is a system of understanding where the victim is coming from understanding where the offender is coming from bringing in the community including the family friends tribal Elders as well to all play a part in the decision-making process of number one. What went wrong number to why did they offend? Why did they commit this crime? And how is a community can we solve the issue that is our traditional way of dealing with grievances are traditional way of dealing with crime and offenses. And then there is a considerable resurgences of that practice would see more and more across the country. Did The Rebirth of of this restorative justice in in different forms and fashions.

07:19 Yeah, I think it's what we talked about Justice a lot of the time we talked about the folks going out census whether that's just returned. He's our judges but a lot of the intersection of the work we do comes in at the policing stage and how folks are police and police who are not from the communities where there are doing the work in your mind. What what effect does that have on indigenous communities especially here in Oklahoma. That's a complex question and maybe a more complex answer because we are we indigenous people a lot of Tribal Law comes into place where it's completely different than the non-tribal long. We're tribal jurisdiction, unfortunately for indigenous people on

08:19 Federal or tribal land. We are unable to prosecute crimes if it is a non indigenous person on the on those on those on that tribal land. So the federal government has basically deemed us and incapable of policing our own people on are on our tribal lands. So whenever we think about policing and how it makes us feel we've already been kind of smacked down a bit by by the feds and in disempowered considerably because we can't even make those decisions. So in terms of what we know is that we are targeted at an extremely high rate in terms of being pulled over for whatever being incarcerated and they are our our length of incarcerate.

09:19 When is longer by buy lots of numbers in percentage points in any other ethnic group were held longer are sentences are longer and there's just has it. There's a series of things that are just stacked against this. So in terms of policing it it's it's a it's a very sore subject and in the native indigenous Community were aware of it and it and it stinks to get I think as you bring up the side of intersection of federal law forces Tribal Law and all of these different jurisdictions and we think about tribal sovereignty as it exists today and how it should exist on Friends of what we actually see I think of to this service, around colonization and the role that that's played in addiction and entitled communities.

10:14 How do we start to even unpack or address that when we talked about Criminal Justice Reform? I love that we're talking about trauma. It is a subject that I am not till very recently started focusing. Holy on. I have a mental health background involved with nami and a few other organizations. And of course the family members who who currently and have for a very long time suffered with mental illness addiction etcetera. I myself have meant in in recovery will be one year sober March 11th. So just a few days are now God willing but but unpacking all of those things. I I honestly as I stated I've had interest in mental health. I have interest in substance abuse and alcoholism and those things I'm starting to kind of backup and take a different approach at it because what I'm realizing is that addiction substance abuse domestic

11:14 Silence all the things are merely byproducts of trauma in and the trauma is historical generational trauma it lives inside of it is in our DNA. It is in ourselves everything our ancestors experienced. We are experiencing as well. We we may not consciously be aware of that. But the way in which we are dealing with those things comes through and ways of violence addiction and substance abuse Etc. So so for me and in the work that I'm doing now, I'm reversing some of my focus on addiction substance abuse in and other mental health and I'm focusing more on trauma because I feel that if we can get to the root of that and he'll the trauma and and kind of bring a whole mess to the spirit into the soul again, we will be able to push aside.

12:14 And other things that we've used to cope and and quite honestly, those are things that we've done in used to cope with the pain that we can't quite describe. So that's that's my answer for unpacking and I'm kind of what next to work a little bit and I know that you've talked about your work doesn't lose matriarch bed talk a little bit more about I guess your professional work and and how that intersects the floor. So interesting the enough the the thing that I that I do in the day, it feeds me financially it pays the bills. I am a partner in a business consulting firm and we help small businesses. I focus on the Nordy businesses to take early native indigenous businesses helping them grow because what we know as well as it is if we can help provide resources and tools for

13:14 I need a business to grow it's going to help grow the community and it's also going to provide jobs and and and opportunities for their family as well. So that that's that's my kind of 925. If you will. My my passion is matriarch in my passion is Indian Country Inn in unfortunately, the passion doesn't pay the bills, but it doesn't stop me so that so that's why you're my careers.

13:49 If you could start your career all over again, knowing what you know now and seeing where you come with us this work around me track, what would you do differently to kind of advanced mission?

14:03 Wow, that is it's actually something that I think about quite frequently. And the reason I think about it frequently is because I am not married to the idea of that nine-to-five for me. I would live in this Airstream park it in a parking lot and and do my advocacy work. But if I were to you know, 20 years ago do it all over again. I would have gone ahead and gone to law school and focus on indigenous law, which is what I was on track to do and got distracted. Unfortunately. I thought of paycheck in this this career path was was a better path then then then then going to law school and giving back to my community and my people and saying that I lost

15:03 Who is still on my list in and I I don't know if I want to practice or not, but it is it's been a lifetime goal of mine to to go back to law school at this point. I'd I do I believe I would probably practice somewhere and I feel at this point. It would be around incarceration and in an in an hour's very very broken system is feeling a huge fire right now, right we talked about this broken system and what it looks like.

15:41 What is one thing that you wish people knew about incarceration in the state of specially is it that they don't that you found through your work?

15:53 So through my work and in through my observations with my own family member this state is buying and selling people. I'm just simply put our incarceration rates are larger than most snowfall States the rate at which we incarcerate are women, I believe in please correct me if I'm wrong. It was the worst and maybe on the globe highest per capita highest per capita. So so for me, what I would want people to know is is is it really it's a business. It's a big business and we are literally setting people up to fail there is I don't know the exact percentage of quote on quote 6s and 6S for me would be not stepping a foot back.

16:53 In the door of prison or the system itself, but but but I think that there is I think our our government our state has done a really good job of keeping a veil of what's really going on inside my own family member for instance. I went to private prison at one point was transferred did did his stay and County and then was transferred to McAlester which is our state prison and then from McAlister's transferred to a state or private prison. Well within that private prison and he was seeing a given the option of okay, you can work which because you need to work cuz you have to pay for that is in prison. I don't know if people know that or not or we have this one program and it just so happens to be at the same time of a job. And so

17:53 We can either have a job and pay for the things that you need or we know you are an addict and you probably need this substance abuse and recovery program that you're going to have to pick and choose and so he chose a job because he needed money and because he needed to buy things like pina food and toilet paper written all of the essential things. And so that gives him 0 help zero resource zero life skills. Not to mention the fact that he's a he's he's not a violent offender, but was in prison with a lot of violent offenders him. He's he's as he is a horrible substance abuse issue and probably should be separated and in a part from violent offenders, it's too totally we we we messed them all together and I believe it is doing a considerable amount of harm. So I think that

18:53 I I would challenge the general public and population two number one care enough to be curious and to kind of pull back this Veil because it's not what it it. It appears to be. It's a pretty it's a pretty crooked system that we've got.

19:17 Yacine press within your own family to I think one of the things I was most shocked to learn about as I've kind of delved into what are system looks like in Oklahoma is that

19:30 Once people get out there still really in trenched largely in debt from A system that that doesn't quite want to let them know these fines and fees keep piling up as they are on probation parole.

19:45 How how did that affect kind of Des that experience you personally?

19:50 Aspen it's I have had a range of motion above emotions since since my family member was was released and he was released back in July of 2017. So pretty recently and watching him struggle and watching him fight against a system that is completely against him and bigger than him has been unbelievably painful. He is in a situation now that that arguably could be more dehumanizing than actually being in prison his his entry into prison with the Oklahoma County Jail was he was sleeping on the floor for a considerable amount of time because they are so overcrowded there were there's no room and then he was given this thing called a boat.

20:50 Just like this makeshift bed. They had a major leak in the facility and it and it kind of got into their kitchen so they could no longer eat inside and had to eat outside and in crazy weather and so it just it's inhumane at a very basic level, but but watching him and he said that's one struggle but watching him kind of post-release is is a completely whole other struggle and I I've seen him he's in a position where he has to he's on ankle monitor. And so it's this gigantic thing that they put around the ankle. So the world is aware of, you know, it's like The Scarlet Letter so that in and of itself is dehumanizing its 2018. I know that we have technology that would allow for something a little more discreet but we

21:50 I want to do that. We want to we want to highlight that criminal, right? So the ankle monitor is one challenge that that he's had just on a his his self confidence and just his self worse. I mean he feels and talks openly about it people stare at me people judge me people pointed many people did so they just constantly walking around in society where people are whispering and pointing. This is horrible. So that's one post-release issue that that I've watched him struggle through in the biggest one is is getting a job. He can't get a job and why he can't get a job is because he's got a program that he's on his part of his release program where he has to call this number everyday and if they flash a card or tell him, he's yellow and he's got to go take a drug test immediately. Then he's got to go take a drug test immediately.

22:50 I don't know because you know by virtue of him being an ex-con on ankle monitor Still Still property of the Department of Corrections. He's Limited in the places that he can apply for employment. Anyway, because employers don't want to hire a felon so that's one strike and Challenge and then oh, hey, by the way, I'm going to have to leave maybe we know for sure one time a week. I just can't tell you when it is but I got to go immediately and if I'm not there within an hour, they're going to pick me up and take me back to prison really limits his ability to to secure employment of any kind. So so, you know not to mention the stress that then puts on the family because we're not going to let our loved one just be homeless or drown or whatever. We're going to help them, but it's still stress.

23:50 For the family because they they have to kick in in and maybe provide resources that maybe they didn't have their couldn't release fair to get so interested puts a challenge and Astrozon on you know, the ripple effect is much greater than just the offender. It's really it's touching, you know, many areas of friends and family with him as well. I think about this a lot in the terms of the scene a family issue and that people issue and I think it's really easy in and our legislature in for elected officials who are involved in the system to talk about criminals or ex-cons are felons and use this language to take away the humanity from the situation. But as we look at the numbers here in Oklahoma our incarcerating people at just an ever-increasing rate taking over as the number one.

24:50 Fastest growing incarceration per capita of any state in the country. We incarcerate more women per capita than any place in the world more black people per capita than any place in the world.

25:02 It is harder for them to get data on Focus twist and digital citizenship and I am sure we are right up there sad as well. But as we think about Tax Claim is kind of

25:16 Ever-increasing and seemingly insurmountable issue. How do you think we we bring folks to the table on the status of cousins? You know, I think that it's it's impacted and affected family members and friends and loved ones who are pissed off and I've had enough and they are tired of seeing their loved one is depressed or suicidal or I'm giving up or should I might as well go back to prison because what do I have here? At least I had three meals and I had a job and that's kind of the mentality. And so I think that for me the steps that I'm going to take his I'm going to be in the faces of my elected officials because I gave you that job I belong in that house called the capital. That's my space. I employed you and oh by the way, so did this group of people in your District?

26:16 And so if you want to keep your job, you will listen to us. And so I my my kind of my my plea in my the direction that I'm taking is mobilizing forces of people who employed the guys and gals are sitting in our Capital we put you there we can take you out. And so if you don't start taking action you'll be replaced. And I know you don't want one of us in there cuz we're going to do all the things that you you haven't done right I work and I am there at all. I thought about it. So so I think that it's it's getting serious for whatever reason and this is why I continue to do the work that I do on on many levels there are pockets of paralysis with our citizens and and for whatever reason we feel so

27:16 Down and paralyzed that we're not doing anything or not taking any action We complain really well. We like to go to social media in and spend an hour on a post or not picking up the phone and calling are calling our elected officials. We're not really showing up at the polls either. So so we're just complaining just complaining and that doesn't mean it's great to to express your frustration. But what is the next step cuz that's not going to fix itself. Like my grandmother used to say this thing. You're just pissing in the wind and that's kind of what we're doing. I mean, that's that's all we're doing. So I would in an am currently I'm a cage Rattler and so I'm going to I'm going to find the people who feel paralyzed and then I'm going to pull them into my circle and we're going to start talking about these issues were going to get fired up.

28:16 About it and and we're going to go down to the capital and we're going to stand on the steps and we're going to demand change and we're going to work with the ACLU. We're going to work with our local partners and we're going to we're not going to be okay and we're not going to rest until something changes cuz this is at best it is it's disgusting what's happening. I think it's easy to get bogged down in the status quo. And what do we do? And how do we fix it? But I always find pockets of hope they keep me going on and I think now we just were lucky enough to sit in on this panel the other night where for 2 hours people listened attentively to

29:02 What is wrong and what is happening and where we're at and the realities of the system we're facing but also how we take action to fix it anything fits.

29:14 Each time we do something like that. I find help again. And I also kind of take away something new. So in the space where we kind of talked about the intersection of incarceration and Indigenous identity and also kind of the black lives matter movement. What was your takeaway from experience like that? It was had so many things that I that I that I took away and I I thought about for the next couple of days after it but what continues what time it is what time in a panel or doing a symposium Her speech or whatever with like minds of may be different ethnicities are different organizations. My my question is always why are we separate like we got to come together because there's power in numbers and in each one of us. We had indigenous people on that.

30:14 Weird African Americans on that panel and we're all dealing with the same thing. We've but we've got our separate organizations and I would like to see more solidarity and those efforts because there is power in numbers and while you bring Natives and and and black folks and and and Hispanics together to kind of discuss the issues and talk about our frustrations and what we're not going to tolerate any longer. I think you have a really powerful platform to to fight to fight with fan and I think of this, you know Coalition and how we bring people to the table I often think about just the struggle of getting people kind of together on a singular issue, especially with

31:07 The current state of affairs with the budget in Oklahoma or basic services like healthcare education

31:19 What is what is your plea de to bring folks to the table to fight on on Criminal Justice Reform and wear that kind of intersex with these other crises were facing again. I think it is. It's kind of the power numbers. I think that we have to identify and be very strategic and identifying the groups that are focused on incarceration are focused on whatever issue it is we're fighting for sitting down at the table with those leaders of those organizations in and looking at literally whiteboarding what are and we're going to probably find trauma in the middle, right and then is a result of that where to find incarceration and substance abuse and domestic violence and all of those things but mapping that out looking at it getting one or a few leaders or subject matter experts and each one of those areas and informing that coalition.

32:19 Nnn having town halls and taking to social media and getting people involved in the discussion so that we can go back to the capital and start having those louder discussions that that would be my kind of solution when it's very collaborative and an approach very intentional in terms of we have to be strategic in the way that we're going about it and I don't think that we have been if you could sit down today with the legislature and your district attorney and sheriff and ask them to start with one change one thing that they could do differently to start addressing.

33:06 They just won't, that their system causes. What would that be?

33:11 Wow, so so the easiest 6 because we do not have the budget because we don't have the budget we can't afford program. So what's the next best solution reduction of sentences? So let's start there. Let's let's start. Let's start looking at our senses and let's get realistic about it. I mean you have folks who are serving life sentences for bags of weed. I mean, come on, let's look at that stuff. This sentence reform I think is is is the first way and it doesn't cost money right arm and everything else does I think that if we start there then we're able to start wrapping her arms around the growing problem that we have. I think I'm

34:00 Estate sale, you looks just lucian's part of the goal of this effort that we're currently in the middle of is 50% reduction of prison and jail population and also doing that work in a way that addresses racial disparities in the system, but knowing that simply by cutting the prison population, he were saving money in the budget they can then go to programs and treatment and so many other things that we currently can't provide our citizens, right? Oh, you know what I mean even even looking at hey, maybe we shouldn't sentence or punish drug offenders as we would have violent crime and murder. It looks like maybe let's maybe take a look at that as well. I think he's a really easy simple things to do and that would be my message to the DA for sure starting with that guy. Yeah, the district attorney has one. Oh, yeah, we talked about a lot but not enough is a conversation that I hope emerged as more and more as we think about.

35:01 He's elected officials who have all this power. The district attorney is the only person that is elected that then regularly ruins lives of their constituents. And rightly something. To think about is where everything about his tire players and who makes these decisions right? I think you're being a really great point. I mean, we we employ him. Why are we not there? Why are we not calling? We don't talk enough about the DEA that that that's a powerful position and it's the position that is is contributing as not leading the charge and all of this saturation of of tensing and bodies on top of bodies in the buying and selling of human beings and human lives and but for some reason we we're not we're not focusing on the da and I think that we we we need to do that definitely.

35:58 As you think about your own activism in advocacy in the work you do with matriarch. What kind of in this next year is next steps. Do you hope to see the kind of intersection of advocacy in in the meter at work? Do you want grow to be?

36:17 The big question and unfortunately for me and I'm the individual as well as the co-founder my partner in that and thankfully we have a great board to kind of real is back cuz we'll be involved in 95 settings and we know that's not possible. Luckily. My my my partner inmate Eric and I are are both taking a huge interest in incarceration right now and have for the past few months. And so I think what you're going to see with us and our organization is is more discussion and more activism and where advocacy work around that issue you as it relates to indigenous people in our communities as well. And in what I think that's going to look like is is more trips to tribal councils and more.

37:17 To our tribes talkin about the policing of our own communities and the restorative justice programs as opposed to falling into this American Justice Way, which kind of goes against our human nature is indigenous people. So I think you're going to see much more effort discussion and and probably a lot of noise around incarceration is earliest indigenous community and excited to see you and Miss Ashley kind of leading the the charge on this button and making these changes and making that noise where it's very much needed was a native women. There was a shocking a percentage and I can't remember what that was what it was like six times or something crazy of the Raiden. You may be able to provide some

38:17 Detail on that but the incarceration rate for native women is just it was it was sickening. So sickening. In fact that I have forgotten the number and it is I think six times as right but it's already had most of those women are mothers we know to correct problem. I think of a lot about the intersections of the work that I'm lucky enough to do and the kind of role that we can take an helping to bring people together on this issue from different backgrounds of perspectives. I think think of what they say leave, Oklahoma looks like in doing this work, what do you hope to see you from that works in the next year more? I want to see more work more efforts like the one that you all are working on now more panels more Community involvement and more Outreach with we would love to get an Airstream and travel around with you guys and and and and you know, really penetrate and the

39:17 Manatees that needed the most but I would it's just more of what you're doing and is sometimes that's a challenge with funding and and and those things but I'd love to see more effort focused.

39:31 Dashie I think we're we're lucky to have people who care about the so much and get to do more of this work together and then try to come together on the swing voice you I know we're wrapping up here, but thank you so much for sharing your story and I my pleasure. Thank you for allowing me to share it and being here with you to an awesome. Thank you.