Kate Strum and Leah Palmer

00:02 My name is Leah Palmer. I'm 26 years old. Today is March 4th 2018. We are located in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, and I'm talking with Kate Stroud my collaborative Creator on the conversation workshops.

00:20 My name is Kate strum. I'm 36. Today's date is March 4th 2018. We are in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, and I'm talking to my creative collaborator on the conversation like shops Leah Palmer.

00:36 Solia

00:39 Why and how did you and Lauren decide to start the conversation in OKC?

00:45 Lauren Palmer's my sister and we are really close. We've been doing a lot of things together for a really long time just found like singing together and running businesses together. So it felt like the start of the conversation was so natural to work on it with her. So anyway backing up in summer of 2016. There were two like very public shootings of unarmed black men in the nation and desire flando Castille and Alton Sterling and I think it was within I don't know like a week or so that I'm Terrence Crutcher in Tulsa was also shot and killed

01:36 And those those just felt like very difficult moments for us. I think it was a moment for me personally where I was owning the fact that I needed to share my black identity with my white friends and we've always kind of existed in these transcultural spaces with other non-black people. And so

02:01 Despite that. I didn't feel like I was doing what I could to share like a black experience with them. So anyway was really tragic and horrible seeing like Facebook videos and news and all of this of those guys dying and I was trying to engage conversations about it on like social media, which is stupid cuz I cannot I mean there's there's not enough human interaction for any sort of productive conversation. I think so that was really the reason why we decided to bring people together. We just threw up a Facebook status and said like hey, we want to talk about these issues. We want to do it face-to-face come and we gave up when and where and that Saturday after those killings 65 people showed up to my parents house and then packed in the room.

03:01 You were there to which was really cool. I I don't think I've seen you much until that moment. We were in grad school together. That's how I knew you but I hadn't really like seen you since graduating. So anyway that we it was very much motivated by a Moment of like

03:24 Just needing to like more and publicly. That was really where it started. I think.

03:31 And so I want to ask you when you were like.

03:36 Enjoying or somehow like involved in those moments with the first conversation. Does it call them when we first started? What were you thinking or feeling?

03:50 I mean, I think that week, you know, I felt different but similar to you. I remember sitting in the parking lot like before I went into work that Friday and just feeling like I had to sit there for a minute before I just kind of collect myself. I believe the two shootings were that week and just thinking about Oklahoma City and it's the first place that I've really understood I think of all the places I've lived at like segregation is really alive and well in terms of the way the city is organized and I heard that is I just started working in the Northeast part of the city and so just realizing I was in a different location and I was pretty you know, I was just a few months old to the city at that point and when I saw that it had been over a year, I'm sure since I've seen you and when I saw that post and that gathering at as I don't know it was like the answer to it was you know, I needed something and I didn't know what

04:50 And that was and I was just thinking that I have to show up and I was you know, not excited maybe in a positive way but thinking like okay but something to focus on in a place to a place to get started talking and we did a lot of people felt that like, I wasn't really sure what to expect from the first conversation that we held but I there is a really tangible anticipation from everybody that showed up and then we had two more conversations and the second one was okay, and the third one was like, okay, we have to like figure out how to become more organized and make this more.

05:37 Productive right? Did you feel that in the third gathers? I mean, I remember I think you and Lauren mentioned in the second even this idea of you know, if you're interested in charge of helping because you guys prepared for those he wasn't just like less show up and talked you had some topics and questions you had established and reading list suggested reading for people and I was aware of, you know, especially cuz we've been in school together. I think that there was preparation involved that you had a showing up and you don't even securing locations. And so I think at the second one I was aware that has also like a little bit in awe of both of you your ability to organize and sort of present that and stand up in front of everybody in and deal with many different personalities in Viewpoint. That showed up. I think the second yammy. I think the second one was the first one where there was some

06:29 It was Mark. Baker in the back and forth and strong opinions. Yeah, cuz we were past maybe the immediate morning and we are more in the like, okay, like let's delve into this and then yes. Oh and then the third one I was really wear it cuz we started to talk about neighborhoods like and I had been specifically interested in that and that meeting was actually right near where I work until we were in that northeast side of town and and it was it was just this is sort of coincidental but it wasn't there was no OU football game and it was the state fair weekend and so the show but not a lot of people showed up and that pisses me off when people do but I remember being I don't know if you asked at the second one, but I think maybe the second or third like, hey guys, you know, if you are interested in helping with whatever is next on this in collaborating and I just remember thinking

07:21 Man, like they really you know, like

07:24 It would be cool to help and also like you totally need more people cuz you can't carry this by ourselves. But also thinking like we're all busy and I already have commitments and I don't know what I could offer to this kind of thing. What were you guys thinking after that? They're going like what where were you going to where were you heading from there? I don't know. I remember feeling like super disappointed that people were I mean we had done a lot of preparation but a lot of people come to those moments where you kind of give them the framework that okay, we're going to talk about Ray. So we're going to talk about racism and they show up and a lot of people just really want to vent and so it's really hard to Wrangle a large group of people who all just want to like about their opinions everywhere and you know part of I mean it's very much in my nature to want to be respectful and like

08:23 Welcoming of all of those opinions, but after awhile, it was like big I roll so I think after the third one we were feeling like we have to figure out a way to become more organized to be more effective in guiding the conversation to be better facilitators of dialogue and really started asking like what even are we doing? You know, like what is that look like, what are we even want to do with this? So I was really happy when you reached out to us about collaborating after the S putting that out there and it was good because there were people who said that they wanted to help but maybe weren't I didn't feel like they were necessarily with us are on the same page about what we wanted to accomplish. So when you sent that Facebook message was like he s cage drove. I want to know what you thought.

09:23 In those moment reaching out cuz I know that you were feeling something then. Yeah. I mean, I do remember after that third one being frustrated with the with the meet up at 9 with that conversation and then but also feeling like I didn't know like I knew that I didn't know what I could bring, you know, I wanted to help but I didn't feel like I had anything to add in particular. I mean I can be involved in conversations, but I sent that message to you and Lauren and Hillary Conan who's our fourth collaborator. We both know from grad school also and it was on November 9th 2016 the day after the presidential election and you know, I want to say I was definitely active on issues that I care about before Trump, but I do think through those conversations, even the first three that I realized how being passive is being complicit just because I wasn't an active racist.

10:23 Trish suhr to complicit and I mean obviously I was energized by that year of the the presidential election and I was like, all right. Well, it's time and I felt confident in honestly and people that I knew in Oklahoma and I think you know in some ways to feel like you're going against the grain like you feel alone and you feel like it's tough. But also that the people that are in there with you are pretty awesome and you can really lean on each other and I mean part of what you just said before that I was so impressed with as far as you and Lauren and I still am like this is still such a strength that you bring to the group is your patient and your ability to listen and thoughtfully consider before jumping, you know back at someone or you know, and that's kind of the premise of our whole Workshop. But yeah, so I messaged you and Lauren and Hillary and

11:15 I was like, let's do this. Let's meet and

11:20 You guys responded and I don't know it wasn't maybe that next week or weekend. Then maybe it was pretty immediate that we were able to just organize and I feel like within the first meeting. We already had like a list of to do Sleek. We already knew what exactly we were shooting for it. I don't I don't think that we knew how how like right or how big the project would be. But now we're at this place in the conversation Workshop. So just the life of our group where I think we're ready to present something to the world.

11:59 Which sounds really like golden? I don't know Powerpuff girl or something because I feel like we're about to like launch this really big beautiful gift and it really started because of people we loved and wanted to take care of an Oklahoma City and it's really cool to like think about what that could be. I think just while I'm talking about I'm thinking of some of my favorite parts of the workshop, you know, and how how how many Beautiful Moments we've been able to experience with participants just some of their like really thoughtful discussion and the way that they respond to some of the unique things that we asked them to do. I think one of my favorite things that we do is actually something that you it was like your idea the backpack exercise.

12:59 I really like the simple idea of having participants just close their eyes and really becoming turn on like self-aware is so beautiful to me to you. I've never asked you this but like where did that come from the idea of leaving it that way?

13:17 I don't know I think as we develop the curriculum, you know and we had some exercises. I don't even remember if this was before that because ideas like a lot of thinking and writing in it and you know and asking people to do group work and I think you know just like imagination is powerful and and and the idea of mental pictures cuz I think you don't end in some ways. I feel like it's kind of from laurenzside because she's always bringing us back down from like the Ivory Tower and she's like, okay like that. I've got it. Yeah, it's so just you know, like being imaginative and creative and keeping that in mind and so the idea of just taking a breath and closing your eyes and it kind of just immediately changes the a mindset I think so. Yeah. I think I just think what you need is like our ability to take people through like kind of establishing with her implicit biases are and then

14:16 In like the second part of the workshop. I mean, how would you describe?

14:20 Really what we're asking people to do.

14:23 So yeah, the meat of the workshop is the it's a conversation style that were teaching. I mean, we kind of move people out of the sort of some of the natural like things that they want to do which is talk about history or talk about hard things in their lives related to race or just like systematic Injustice has and so we move them out of that into the second part more talking with them about how to engage that with like healthy conversations. And I think something that's really unique and beautiful about what we're doing is we're not asking people to like

15:07 Rally with a large group. I would I do that and I think it's powerful but we're really asking people to just like press into those that they love and those that they know well already which is so much harder because if you have a relative or a best friend or somebody who says something that's slightly racist or totally racist or says something that's offensive to a large group of people or even to themselves.

15:43 When you have that fragility of a relationship that you want to protect it's more difficult. I think to engage a topic like that and to be transparent about how you're feeling or even just calling someone out when they're wrong. So I think that it's really helpful that we do this we call it invitation on dialogue. It's actually developed from another model from feminist Theory. But yeah it very much does what it says you were inviting people to see your perspective you're giving them the opportunity to invite you into their world and I think it works in in relationships that are fragile. I know that Lauren and I use it a lot and visit just like unrelated to race like it. It's a useful dialogue style for any precious relationship.

16:43 Yeah, that like the political climate is just like I yell my opinion that you had to convince you that I'm right and that you're wrong and then you do the same back at me and like no one is making any changes and I think just I've come to believe that this system, you know of Invitational style dialogue. You don't like making making helping people make changes and see different perspectives kind of from the Grassroots level. Because I think some of those, you know, we know so many people who don't have the same views about race as their parents or their grandparents or their spouses or their friends and those are precious relationships. And so because those are contentious that the content rating of the content just topic and they know they can't afford to lose their mom as a person in their life. They don't talk about that anymore. And I'm it's been really cool to see some people be like, wow. Yeah, like that's something that can work like that's a way to preserve that relationship and and also, you know make a change because and it sounds a little cheesy and I've certainly had people be wrong.

17:43 My eyes are roll their eyes at me. But you know, if you can talk to your mom who can talk to her friend who can talk to you know, and that's how we may change and I think like you said we all believe in, you know, we believe in rallies or marches or we believe in sometimes you just have to you know, tell someone to stop something that's dangerous or harmful. But but for the most part or you know, at least in in these these relationships built on trust and respect that we all have in our lives I think, you know learning how to talk to people about difficult things whether it's raised or something else is it seems like the greatest way to make to make it and yeah, and I really think that like sometimes the most where racism is concerned sometimes the most damaging

18:30 Moments are the ones that are underneath the surface not the ones that are super over. So like yes the conversation Workshop started because of something really in our face that happened in the news, but it's the I think back to one of our first conversations.

18:50 A participant came and he was talking about his dad music. I love my dad, but I just can't talk to him about I just can't talk to him about philando Castile it. I mean this guy just doesn't believe that there's any racism happening in that moment. And I think that like those comments from people like I love my husband but he's shutting down and we're raising two white men, you know, like I I don't know how to talk to him. It's those comments from participants that I'm like yo like this is real and if we can figure out ways of making those conversations happen at giving people avenues for that. It's it's really powerful, you know, the aspect of bring of approaching us and pre-existing communities, you know, we're not asking people to show up in a Faraway City for a weekend of training.

19:50 People that they don't know you know what we're hoping as the curriculum launches at the end of April for people to go into, you know, facilitators to be in church groups or what groups or schools for, you know, any kind of pre-existing Community where these relationships exist and then certainly, you know, once they've gone to the workshop, they can't have these conversations with the people. They love. But I think you know people have lives and you know, they have the communities that already exist in those lives and I think they can make the biggest impact if they work within those and be like another just much more likely to to take up as challenge when there an environment that doesn't already challenged them to do something new. That's so true. So I love that about it. What are you

20:39 What do you think has been like the most challenging part of bringing all of this together?

20:46 That question. I mean the most challenging. I don't know. I mean I think so many.

20:52 I think you know for us just getting this right is so important, you know, this is not I think they're so grateful that all four of us really understand a weight of where we fly high stakes. Yeah, and I think you know, I feel so glad that we're all we care so much about that and we're not just going to toss something out there into the world that you know, what has not been thoroughly vetted. I mean being able to do the run our pilot series at Oklahoma State University and work with faculty group student groups of groups and you know get their feedback and you know, this is working this isn't working and just run through the workshop ourselves and see that has been so valuable. You know, I think two would be remiss to overlook. Can we talk about it some but it's like we're two black women and two white women and not only you know, are there, you know, I think we've been tried we tried to be open about what would come up between us, but also and like I think you would learn a good about bringing this up because

21:48 You know, the two of you are from Oklahoma City and so you have been in in a culturally, you know, what things are like you're more than Hillary and I and this idea that people are looking at us like how is this going to work? How is there Dynamic? I don't know if that's a challenge, but I feel like the pressure and the stakes of that way. There is we had to get over a hump of like

22:17 Knowing each other professionally like as colleagues and grad school, you know, the three of us you me and Hillary like we ran in this very like professional. I think that's how I saw you guys and there wasn't much room to talk about personal experiences or family dynamic or whatever. And so I think that we got over a hump at some point where we started breaking down our own walls between us and like sharing the truth about what it's like to be a white woman in Oklahoma City or a black woman in Oklahoma City or even like you and Hillary are both transplants, Oklahoma City. So what you saw from an outside perspective has been really helpful to us because we've just been so steeped in this culture. I also think it's super interesting more than I talk about the cell actually.

23:14 We think it's so interesting that we're two women who are like Christian and we bring a lot of Life Church knowledge and I think even sometimes we have to like excuse some of the language and rituals as like growing up in church from our Workshop. Like I have to remind myself not to like do an altar call at the end of our works and you and Hillary are a little less that way and I think that we've had to just be open and honest together and I feel like a lot of freedom between us about just being who we are. That's a good point to yeah, and I think that's so I mean cuz in Oklahoma and and we do hope this will I mean if it's closed Nationwide great, but you know, our first investment in love is like to do this here where we can see what's actually know what what you know, what's needed but I think for me moving to Oklahoma, you know, I will have been here.

24:14 And I've been here almost six years now, but only in the city for about 3 and you know, seeing how much like communities within churches like that is I can say that I don't you know, I'm not part of a church Community but like I have to acknowledge what communities are here that are important people are irrelevant what my communities are when I'm thinking about what's needed and I think obviously you guys bring me back to the night. We talked about it a lot and race in, you know churches in Oklahoma, for example, you have more knowledge. But yeah, I mean, I think you know, we have I just think that the fact that all four of us. Well at least two three four five different backgrounds, you know, in terms of location and upbringing and even just how you know race has played in our life is I know it helps the curriculum to be you know, what sort of multi-sided and and I I believe that that is important to you no mint connected helping it connect to

25:14 Any participant? Yeah, I think that helpful. Yeah, I think that people see themselves in some ways, you know, like they can identify with one of us. If not all of us at some point through the workshop, which is always been good rather than us being like another homogeneous group out there. You know, I think that way I like that I think that's a strength then, you know, either in running the workshops are just through this process has been most surprising.

25:44 Oh, that's a good question. I don't know.

25:50 So

25:52 I think all of the cash there so many things coming to mind. So yesterday when we worked through like all we counted up all of the hours that we've spent on this thing in like started trying to put a value on those things, which it's invaluable. I don't want to do that. But just seeing the amount of work that we all put into a project like this was really surprising and I know along the way like we all felt the weight of it in some ways like we were taking off work to drive to Stillwater, you know it to rent a workshop or or sacrificing hours in the evenings to do a conference call or whatever to collaborate spread out doing different things during the day and trying to come together and collaborate. So I think that was surprising I didn't realize

26:50 I didn't I guess what I'm learning by looking at those hours and numbers and the value of it is that we all really care about it, you know, like there's like significant sacrifice that each one of us have made in order to like see it come this far and even just like the level of care that we take towards production Valley View and like the the workbook itself the materials we are meticulous. And I think that's the second thing. I was surprised about is like how proud I am of the physical product and what it feels like to be in one of our workshops.

27:34 I mean it's a far cry from where we were with the original iterations of the conversation where we were like trying to figure out ways to deescalate rants, you know, and now we have these beautiful thoughtful conversations with people because of yeah all of the time and all the sacrifices from everybody. What about you? I was just thinking that I mean this is yeah, this is for sure. I didn't think I could think of one, but for sure the positive feedback along the way I mean, I think all four of us are perfectionist and I mean we better be in this business. It's not business but you know because like like I was saying I don't want to put something out there. That's not

28:15 Mina that I don't feel like it's good quality, but I think you know every time we did work chapter in the pilot, you know, just especially from YouTube because you started the conversation in Oklahoma City people would constantly be you know asking you what's next what's happening with all this message be back in at workshops. Like this is amazing. I was I was surprised every time you know, cuz I think we worked on it worked on it and we're in our sort of little bubble working on it. Just hoping it doesn't stink and then we show up and it's like really like yeah you really think is effective and it's exciting because I think when we started doing the pilot, we had been working so long without showing it to anyone and we and like you said so a lot of sacrifice and hard work and feeling like man, like I know this is worth it, but like I'm tired and I'm not making any money right now doing this and and so that was just like so much fuel like, you know, because I think just hearing a that people thought it was called.

29:15 B&B that they were hungry for this. I mean I have been shocked by that, you know, I think it feels like man like if people

29:23 You know what gives you hope for people to you know, and just like this idea that people want something to help him talk about something that's really hard to talk about it. Like it's a pretty neat concept that you know, people want to delve into something and I think I mean ones who works app, you know, and they're like this is what it really has like, you know, what the reality check for people, you know about how difficult it is, but I think that you know, it's and honestly like I think about it relative to the to the nation and representing, you know, flyover country and they have the middle of the country where you know people, you know, don't think much of this region and I'm totally one of those like when I'm back Easter, you know, I'm you know, I kind of want to brag about it because I'm like love like you don't actually know what's going on there and there's a lot of cool stuff and a lot of people that are motivated to make change, you know, I think it has to come from here, you know, no one's going to come from New York and change Oklahoma. So I mean I can from New York, but LOL. Okay. No one like me.

30:23 You know how long before I get to be like at Hunter Aoki. I think I'm like almost there. I think you're at the like so inattentive season 2 Oklahoma City. I think I have so what are you what are you most excited about in terms of obviously building up to the launch of our Crazy Love in the future future Focus person. Like I'm the kind of person who can see like details of 20 years out and maybe I'm just dreaming I don't know but I just see this like spreading I really do. I think I think well, let's just say what I hope I hope that

31:07 That people will

31:11 Really really want to dig in and want to become facilitators of the workshop. So I really want to train as many people as we can to take our materials in our Craig come into their communities and and and start disseminating these dialogues that we're trying to to do and I think on that level I can I can already see like places where your universities and churches and school districts and even just like Mother's Day Out groups or book clubs. I can see them all finding a value in a used to the conversation workshops. And I think when I when I think really far out, I'm also thinking always and still motivated by Future generations, and I think I don't have children right now, but I think about them and think about grandchildren and I think

32:08 What this will look like to them and I'm I'm really thankful that.

32:14 Then we get to like engage something that instead of like being a passive bystander. I love the stories of my family where my grandfather talk about bike the Million Man March or my grandmother talking about students. Like I want to continue that Legacy. So anyway, that's part of my big future. I mean, hopefully hopefully we'll get there has been a huge like your ability to do that. I think I don't know that I'm not that that's my natural inclination, you know, but I think you and Lauren being so, you know, young female small business owners is I mean impressive in itself, but it gives I think you're able to do that because like you have entrepreneurial spirit and you wouldn't be doing what you're doing if you couldn't see if I had because like this is pointless. And so I think I may be a little bit more cautious. And so I mean I always just reminds me about it. It's one of those things where it feels like how could this have been into?

33:14 Group of people. Yeah, I mean, I think it's challenging we are different and we ran again we're all like invested in these other jobs and projects. So like it's busy but I always think that it just feels like you know, it supposed to be the four of us doing this and we all bring different things and that for thanking, you know makes me also exactly like just sort of recently. I've started by the end of the pilot when people were given at the feedback like this is awesome. Like you should like charge big lots of money for you to do, you know for them has been said and you know, we

33:53 Nothing much have the power to create change but like can Empower people through, you know sharing this with them to create change in their communities, which is exactly you know, what the goal has been a long so I thank you for for being so forward-thinking and so for the future minded I think in times but I don't know. I just haven't you know, that's where that's not my natural. Yeah. I think we balance we're balancing all the time the four of us balancing each other out and bringing different things to the table. I want to ask you the same question. What are you most excited for maybe even just like centered around the lunch here and in Oklahoma City. I meant just as it was cool to get the pilot like going and have people hear it. It was so the pie, you know, I'm just like this is it like we have to be finished. We have to have all the pieces that we want out initially to be out and it's a lot to think about but I think we'll get there and just to you know between having

34:53 Reading. Do you know what the local poet at a local new independent bookstore and then having a fundraiser and having sort of an opening night with it. I mean I just want you know, I'm like so ready for people to know about this excited as we've been but also like, you know, they I think people will take it and run with it in ways. You know, I think I'll be a little bit hard as we've talked about to let it go and why is he here? But I think I think we'll be amazed at like the way that people can interpret and take it with them and we'll really start to actually see this making changes in Oklahoma City, I think so it kind of I can't wait for yeah, it's going to be big and it's coming up still feel like there's a lot to do.