Mattie Sheafor and Amy Skinner

00:05 I'm Amy Skinner and I am 55 years old today is June 10th to 2018. And where in Jackson Wyoming I'm here with my dear friend Maddy Schaefer.

00:19 My name is Maddy Schaefer. I'm 51 years old hunts June 10th, 2018 or in Jackson, Wyoming and I'm with one of my oldest nearest and dearest friends Amy Skinner.

00:33 I feel like we've been having this conversation on going for all close to 30 years. My friend feels pretty familiar.

00:42 Do deer fire pit sand?

00:45 Campgrounds and climbing routes

00:50 Identity

00:52 Lately on the phone on the phone a lot. Yeah, you know this is better.

00:59 I was just talking to I think I told you I was talking to my friend who I felt buyers with in Alaska way back in the mid-80s and I hadn't had any contact with her since late 80s, I believe and she just reached out.

01:19 Few days ago and asked if she could call and we had this amazing conversation after all those years. It felt like we'd missed a week maybe and it made me think about you because the question she was asking where

01:40 Her nephew had been involved in a climbing accident on El Cap and he survived but his the two other men in the party did not and so she was reaching out to me asking how you go forward and that led me to you because you've been such a key to hell we go forward and I think that's gun both ways. Have a nose job.

02:08 Play how to do how did you feel when she reached out to you that that bring up all all those memories it did and she was worried about that, but

02:18 I tried to cancel her saying that those memories are there and it feels good to remember them as hard as it is, but mostly in a wheat field in whether someone's asking about his or not, but I really took me back.

02:39 To how thankful I was to have friends like you she kind of help me move through those hard places, you know, and I started on that list that we all have in this small world of fighting fires and then also of rock climbing, you know, it's such a small world of people who have been in a salon and we've lost so many dear friends too many young.

03:09 Yeah, so was what 12 years ago? We lost your husband Todd.

03:14 Yes, yeah 12 years ago, but you know, I I thought back like how those experiences have changed our lives in your chest that summer it started that summer losing Karen, right? And that was a bad year. It was even before that. It was a

03:34 Bad year in the Tetons. We lost Heather Paul. We'd lost gymratz. We'd love to me Doug Coombs and then we lost Karen and then that's all we lost hard. Now. That was a rough year that was.

03:51 Not exceptional. Unfortunately, you know that happens and that was her question to me is like this happens. It seems like it happens all the time. And how do you

04:05 Go forward and

04:08 The only response I could come up with was he know you rely on your people you ask for what you need and feel good about no learning from it. You know what I thought she asked that classic question. Like why do you keep doing it? And why did you want to keep climbing? Yeah, but it seems to me like the only

04:39 I guess if I

04:41 Had to choose between

04:46 Climbing and being outside with all of you people that I love so much.

04:52 And risking the possibility of losing you.

04:57 Or

04:59 You know not having that risk, but also not knowing you pretty easy. Yes to just go with.

05:07 Take the rest. You know, that makes sense. Yeah, it does. I think I think my response to our losses are mutual losses over the years hasn't been ever to have that figured out. I think I go.

05:22 Season-by-season and decide if I'm still a climber and so far the answer has been yes. I still want to go. I still want to make those memories, but I've gotten a lot pickier about who I want to invest time in because I'm so

05:41 I feel I feel like we've been Shattered by those losses.

05:46 I wouldn't give up the time.

05:49 I had SE with Karen McNeill before Ginsu disappeared on.

05:55 Unoriginal ASCA and I wouldn't give up anything. I know you wouldn't give up a moment with Todd but I I guess that's it feels like the pain that we feel after our loss is the price of that love right? And I I don't I don't feel like it's in the mountains are.

06:17 The arbitrary and it's an unrequited love that we have for them and for the rocks.

06:24 They're just

06:26 A space where we discover ourselves, but they're still in inanimate object. Right? So I don't I don't know that I have a greater love for climbing that I have for these exceptional people. We lost it's just been the place that we've gone to learn what we needed to learn.

06:50 I've learned who I am and what I can do and I learned that I'm wrong about all of those things. I thought I knew.

07:01 Because you

07:04 I think for me climbing has been a great vehicle. It's been the mechanism. That's brought me my most treasured friendships.

07:13 My deepest relationships. It's been a place where there's always gravity. There's always the rules of safety is always inherent risk that must be managed.

07:26 It isn't.

07:28 Ever

07:30 A place that gives way with those rules, so it's a place to

07:35 Measure myself through the seasons of my life

07:39 And find it's like a touchdown I go back there and I see who I am again and again.

07:46 Did you feel so different after you have children about your climbing?

07:53 I felt more grateful for it. I think.

07:58 And I felt more careful with my choices.

08:02 I definitely

08:04 Pulled back from alpinism and and spent more time sport climbing in training for sport climbing.

08:13 And when I had to go back to guiding to make ends meet when I was going through my divorce, I have made a focus of becoming really strong physically so that I could

08:23 Be a good mom and still come home. That was critical, but I I wanted to get

08:31 I wanted to work on my you know education degree in my my bachelor's for that so that I could get a teaching job and not put myself In Harm's Way quite as often and then choose the safest. I love climbing I could and that's in a climbing with you most of the time someone I trusted the most.

08:51 Come on, and that's what I guess what I mean by becoming more and more picky.

08:56 You know, I feel like

08:59 Climbing with people who have been through the same shared losses that we have have a greater respect for the the risks that are inherent in the sport and for the necessity to mitigate the risk.

09:13 I remember when I was guiding at Devil's Tower and Todd would go along to go climbing and I'd be working so I couldn't blame him and he just plain people in the parking lot is terrible. You just say, hey, let's go climbing not knowing anything about them. That was terrifying.

09:36 But I was thinking about

09:39 How long my relationship with you is probably my longest relationship with anybody except my parents and my siblings are you we've been through marriages and children and expeditions.

09:59 Intercept coming back. I know.

10:07 How you first met?

10:09 Each other

10:12 I don't remember the first time I saw you. I remember early on seeing a photograph of you in Teton mountaineering and thinking I want to meet her cuz you were so strong and that was kind of back in the day when you didn't see a lot of women climbing certainly not two women climbing together very often and I want it. Yeah, I think I'd rather buy you in National magazine climbing magazines as you are putting up some of the hardest routes in the United States then

10:46 I was in awe and then when I I think we met maybe nsync's I can't remember for sure. But I just remember you greeted me like an old friend and you were so warm and if they say if I was like so tickled that you would let me into your circle that I just went along with it. I knew you could get the Rope up there for me. I think it was the other way around then my chair. So that was probably 91. I think 92. Maybe it's been a long time and makes me laugh cuz I remember them coming with you just a few years ago and we met some young kids. So must have been all right then.

11:28 And we were in the cleft and Kings Canyon and they were asking some questions. I think they were just barely twenty maybe and they were asking you about routes around the corner from us and how hard they were they and what should they do and then as they're walking away I overheard him say that's so cool. I wish my mom climb and we realize we become the moms at the Crag.

12:02 Well, I remember.

12:05 A scheme we had to have an all-women's Full Tang and new Roots weekend at Baldwin Grace Jones. I Lander with you and Nancy Faith. Can't remember who else was with us. But that must have been early 90s. Yeah. Yeah. We drove me a little Chevy S10 up there. I'm not rough road. Yeah and then kind of hopeful 10 and find new lines and oh my goodness crazy. It was fun. My favorite times those claiming with you are either at Wild Iris, of course down by Lantern, but at hueco tanks when you come down there because when Todd night winter down there, it was such an amazing exciting place to be because everyone came to us on their vacation. So even though we were there for 5 months people,

13:05 There for a long weekend or two weeks or even three weeks but it was their vacation that they had planned for they were psyched. They were hungry and that's how you were when you came down. There was such a short trip that you wanted to be out there climbing hard everyday and doing all the things on your checklist. It's was so exciting. That's when I really understood your power. Do you know it was first in hueco tanks?

13:35 Because you and Carol took me out climbing think the night before I'd arrived and you asked me what would I like to do tomorrow myself? I'd like to go climb, you know something as hard as I possibly can and for me, I think right now that's you know, whatever. It was great wise and I I thought you forgot or I would have not slept at all.

13:55 And I thought you and Carol forgot. Thank you serenaded move flute music or something. You guys are silly and and we went out the next morning and we watch some guy up on this route and he was hanging and swearing and not able to get up the root having a devil of a time and you were like don't look don't look cuz you can on sight if you look you look so much stronger than me. I can't do that. And then you're like a that you're going to do it and then he came down and he sat off to the side and numb you and I went up to the road and I tied in and and I got up part way and it was such a struggle. It was not pretty at all and I'm still not hanging in and I look up and I know that I have to die now. I feel like cut loose and jumped for that. Hold and is forever way and I'm going to fall and I can hear you going. You got it. You're so strong.

14:56 She's so invested in me. And then I don't know what happened. But I was like, well, I'll just shower I can't do it and I sprung up and and all the sudden has done with that move and on the anchors and I still don't know what happened. I came down and it was like you were a snake charmer and head make the climbing rope Coast if all the rides anchors left being there with you. I love to watch you guys come in. So strong.

15:30 I just think about what makes our friendship so strong and I think it's those stories that we had so much fun and we laughed over silly things but most of all, I think it's the safety.

15:50 When I think about you I think about being in uncomfortable places. I don't know who I'm sure how I feel about that. But I do I feel safe with you. I feel absolutely confident if we're in an airplane if we're on the grand if for sport climbing

16:10 If we're talking about parenting challenges, that's the one where they come back to his safety. I almost feel.

16:22 That you've got my back. Absolutely. No question. And that's a rare thing. I feel lucky. I feel lucky we have been in some amazing places together and tight spots and hard spots.

16:41 And that summer that Todd died. I I kind of remember it's kind of a blur now, but I remember you Lucas was a tiny baby and I think you arrived. Very first day and everything cuz at that point, I knew you had my back and I could just

17:05 Let you take it even though you have that tiny baby with you. You just take it on and I'm grateful for that.

17:17 Remember opening your door and you looked at me and said I thought about this day a lot of times and it's so much worse than I thought it would be.

17:27 Can I think

17:32 That is something that I could talk to Leo about is that we had thought about that possible outcome. We had with Karen we had with all our friends because it wasn't

17:50 Outside the possibility and what could happen?

17:54 And I think that was probably helpful to be realistic to know it wasn't a possibility.

18:06 I always struggle with that. I mean there you were with the twins in kindergarten and Hannah was in second grade at night, but

18:18 I don't know that year was We got so beat up that you're losing all these?

18:25 Treasured people that the world would be so much better off if they were still here.

18:32 And I remember talking to a friend about it and he's a trauma nurse and he was saying well this is actually life. You know, it's not just climbers and you feel beat up cuz you're in the the storm right now losing people, but it doesn't always like this.

18:50 And I thought maybe he's right but lately watching these next generation of young people losing friends.

19:03 Yeah, I don't know I mean

19:07 You know, I mean you're a pilot climber.

19:14 It is decided to take risks, but these aren't you know, flying isn't a crazy rescue always safe about it.

19:26 I think it this requires that we you still follow her heart, but but hopefully just tried so carefully knowing how fragile it can be, right.

19:38 I learned that from you.

19:41 I remember that first time getting in an airplane with you. We were in Wisconsin therefore we were at your mom and dad's yeah south of here with that drug detox custody, you know that was on your pregnant with the twins. And yeah, that was early Earth. I came to Wisconsin and you and your dad for flying a lot of my pilot's license, right? And I think that's the first time I ever got to sit in the right bill. I was in the right seat but in the front seat of an airplane, I know you're in the left seat room. Yeah, he took the right seat and you were in the pilot in command seat.

20:23 Remember we got you your own log book. That was a good memories. I was a kid here, but I think about in all our time together are those really strong Vivid instances when we were doing something pushing the limits a little bit but not really. I mean we were comfortable at the most part. I think not extremely yeah, I agree. I agree.

20:54 If you took you could talk a little bit more about Todd and what he was like as a person.

21:04 I've been thinking about Todd so much lately because we're working on some projects in and there been a lot of stories told lately because the kids are asking for stories again be kind of go in waves.

21:23 But Todd was this dripping.

21:26 Amazing amazingly focused person, but when you pulled back from that, you know. Do you remember to seeing him read to the kids? So holding a little baby anytime hand in his lap and be in the fall on Dad and he really loved that. I believe you would have continued to be a great dad.

21:58 But it was hard to get him to spend time at home. He'd rather take the kids and go out into the desert exploring her. Yeah, you remember your first meeting with Todd now, I think so. I mean, he was sort of a charismatic warm person when you're standing there talking to Todd. It was like no one else was on her if she just made you feel like what you had to say was important and he wanted to hear it. But I always told him that he was he was able to be Todd Skinner cuz he had to Amy Skinner behind him and man. The rest of us could be something really creative weird. Amy Skinner standing behind us to

22:41 Oh, he acknowledged. I was right. I appreciated that I met Todd.

22:53 At hueco tanks, Texas my boyfriend and I drove into the parking lot at the campground Quonset hut at Waco Pete's Mexican Pete's.

23:09 And we had just been rinsed in Chattanooga and we'd heard about hueco tanks and wanted to go climbing there. So my boyfriend and I pulled into the parking lot and there was Todd leaning on the pillar by the front door at the Payphone we hits.

23:31 I would find out was where he often stood. He's been a lot of his life on the phone, but that was gosh 86 maybe 1986 in and we climbed with Todd for a week or two and then off he went to Mexico and I didn't see him again for another year, I guess until I was a Ricky smokejumper up at Redmond, Oregon and I was climbing at Smith rocks and ran into him there and that's when we had our first date we man out for a spaghetti dinner in, Redmond, Oregon.

24:16 And then off he went to Europe. I think he was in the World Cup.

24:21 Tour the summer so he went off to climb in Europe and I went to Ricky Ricky training ended up blowing up my knee and was out for a while. It was a very spotty relationship for the first few years. We kept running into each other along the way and then losing track of each other.

24:52 I think those blue eyes just told me right in he had this amazing days that he made you believe you were the most important person and I was so attracted to the lifestyle. We had Ben clymer's on the road for so many years at that point and it was exciting to kind of be on that front edge of what was possible not me myself but watching him push the limits was really exciting.

25:32 I loved that lifestyle F climbing and doing slideshows for a hundred fifty bucks to get a few.

25:42 Thanks for the gas to get to the next place. It was just good fun and

25:48 Met so many people. That's what it always was for me with meeting all the great people along the way. Who are we are still friends with after all these years.

26:02 What was he like as a climber?

26:07 I spent so many hours on belay man. I believed that man forever. He was tenacious and focus and he dream so big we were talking about our first visits to Wild Iris.

26:29 Where he looked at these Cliffs that were so far beyond what we could imagine climbing and said with certainty that this will be climbed and now 12 years after he died the guys around Lander are still red pointing just now finishing his roots, and he believed that they were to happen soon. I think that was the biggest

27:03 Positive thing that Todd contributed to the sport was his certainty of what was to come remember you and I sitting around a fire and and recalling that cannacity he had to take something that seemed impossible and work a plan backwards to make it inevitable.

27:27 Just breathtaking, you know, right?

27:31 Yeah, it was fun yesterday just yesterday. We had a little surprise party party for Todd's.

27:41 Favorite climbing partner of all-time call Tiana they did the cell if a free cellophane together and it was the 30th Anniversary there for their free Ascent of the cell that they will remember where I was when I heard the news really? Yeah, where were you I was in a climbing shop. You might believe that's a big deal that was huge. And that was a that my story was so different because we had been in Yosemite Valley while Paula and Todd were working the root and the morning they decided to go up and for that final push to do the route. I dropped them off at the base and I left the valley and I was going to meet my friend Bonnie to go climbing and so they did the route.

28:36 And then they got hurt at the top and Amy nopales leg was broken and touch ribs were broken and they had this terrible epic pick it up at the top but that was way before cell phones and I've always been thankful that I didn't know because about their accident because I was camping in Utah somewhere and I didn't hear until a week later that they had had that accident in.

29:10 466 hours people were searching the base thinking looking by their body and done with that rockfall. Yeah. Thank God their way to the top when they actually practiced siren coming down the trail to hell. Yeah, that was a crazy time so different than what is now we're so in touch up, but at that time and even a couple years later when we got our very first cell phone.

29:43 He still have to do more up the wall a couple hundred feet to get a signal out of the valley so that he could call home and check in.

29:52 A different time

29:55 Can you talk about how God died and what happened I can

30:03 So well, I can't talk about exactly what happened when Todd died because I wasn't there.

30:11 I was home in Lander.

30:15 With the children, we have three children at by that time and I

30:21 Todd was in Yosemite working on his a new route. They're freeing freeing in Adrian there with his partner Jim Hewitt and

30:35 I was

30:38 Picking Hannah up from ballet and the twins and I were to standing around in the parking lot, and I don't remember.

30:47 If someone came to get me but someone told me there was a phone call for me at my mom and dad's and I remember suddenly being there and talking with Jim on the phone and he said there'd been an accident and that Todd's harness had broken.

31:09 And he had fallen.

31:11 And then it's kind of a blur. I don't remember very much about the next.

31:19 Day or so until you arrived. I think you are right the next day next morning. I was there. Yeah, your dad called me that night. So I don't I don't have a very good grasp from might my standpoint about what happened the first hours.

31:40 But

31:43 I have the reports of course from Jim and and everybody who was on search and rescue and they were so great. You know, there were they took care of Jim and he was so of course he was so shaken, but the accident I think thankfully the accident was Todd's fault because he had a harness that broke because it was too old and he had used it to hard which he was kind of famous for and it's always been kind of thankful.

32:20 There was no one else to blame because I can't imagine.

32:25 Flipping with that

32:28 Burden, so it's hard as it was to lose Todd.

32:34 I think if we had to lose him, I'm just thankful that it was just him and not his partner and that it certainly was not as partners fault.

32:46 What do you remember about getting the news?

32:52 It was surreal because Todd was sort of a larger-than-life figure in our community.

33:02 He was the superb climber and he was safe and he was skilled and he thought hard about his projects and he prepared for them. They've been to try and go in Pakistan. They come home. They achieve their objectives Against All Odds.

33:18 Keep calm and all over the world doing things that appeared impossible.

33:23 And so I think I'd I'd believe that we'd have him forever.

33:29 And them so it was

33:33 Not believable, and I just got home myself from a climbing trip in Arizona that very night. My name is Dad called me in.

33:43 Told me we'd lost him and I said I've got to throw a load of laundry in and I'll be over with a baby in the morning left my toddler.

33:54 And drove to Amy's and she has Amy's.

34:05 So sorry.

34:08 And I drove to your house.

34:10 To find you and I open your open the door and said I thought about this.

34:16 Before and it's so much worse than I imagined. It would be.

34:21 And when I looked at Jake and Sarah's little faces think there were five.

34:27 And Christina

34:31 I was just adding 7 for the time.

34:34 You know, I realize that we were in and I'm brand new.

34:39 Set of circumstances in the new terrain that we'd never crossed before.

34:45 But one of the things that I've always admired about you the most is the way you've built Community around you and the people you care about you voice put people in touch with each other who needed to know each other or find what they need from each other.

35:01 And that community.

35:04 By that evening was amazing and I asked your friends were coming to the house and bring you food and taking care of children. I said what can I do with man? And they said no your only job is to hold your friend's hand and be there for her. We got everything else.

35:24 And that was the beginning of the week and I think four days later. There was a memorial service for Todd.

35:32 / 750 people and there was a huge bonfire and people had flown in from all over the country. If not the world. I forget. I think there was a couple of Europeans present.

35:43 Huge slideshow in an outdoor field

35:48 And there was food for everyone and music and remembrances Into the Night.

35:55 And a couple days later when the that group of women from Lander that you would they friended and who had your back so thoroughly I had to think about getting back home to my toddler and they were sitting in a circle in your living room deciding who's going to write. Thank you notes for what and who was going to return what I said. You're amazing. You're a really powerful group. Maybe you should think about peace in the Middle East.

36:25 They laughed but you know, that's that's what you build because that's who you were for every one of these people.

36:33 And that's why your friend called you the other day because you're the rock to so many of us.

36:40 Well, and you're a part of that too, and that's what you do. So well too and you've been in this game so much longer than I have in terms of

36:53 Your alpinism in that big ice climbing days, you know, I I turn to you for advice about how to

37:06 Continue and I realize so much on you.

37:11 For that for can a direction and how to move forward? I'm thankful.

37:19 I don't have any answers, but I I think that's that.

37:26 You know that we wouldn't we wouldn't trade.

37:30 The Memories We have with these important people that pain is the price of love

37:36 I were younger than we're going to be.

37:39 Can I settle for more?

37:43 Yeah, I remember that group of women in Lander. That was the best thing just these women had.

37:51 Food for a favorite taking care of my children. They were planning. Amazing party and speakers and school buses to transport people to the memorial now and that's what I think.

38:10 I'm so thankful for that huge group that huge world of climbers to tell my children stories about their dad cuz my kids have memories of him. But a lot of stories that were before they were born and people come to them all the time with another story for just such a gift for them. We sometimes we have Daddy movie nights and watch those silly old movies that he made for that uspn. Yeah. That's right. They and the kids shake their heads and laugh and agree. He was not an actor was a good thing he could slime but we love all the stories and I think that's a great thing to come out of this huge community of people.

39:03 You mention your friendship and it's the strength of it and I'm just wondering how that strength impacted the process of.

39:15 But, did you experience during and after Todd's death?

39:21 How are you there for each other?

39:24 Well, I kind of think that in all these losses that we've had we take turns carrying the other person for a little while. I think that's one of the strengths of our relationship is that

39:42 We're both in it together. Yeah, but maybe one day one of us feels a little stronger than the other.

39:52 Does that make sense? I you have.

39:57 Even just that one year when we you know, Bobby had his accident and was not doing well in Todd died and Karen died. And I think you carry me when I need it and I can relax into it and know that you're going to do what needs to be done and vice-versa. I think just that absolute knowledge that. There's nothing to worry about while you've got the controls.

40:26 I feel the same way. I feel like when I look back at our our friendship and we were those young strong women in the picture. Maybe we didn't maybe I wasn't always honest with you about what I needed or what I was scared about and then in my thirties, I think I trusted you more and more.

40:46 And then

40:48 There's certainly I couldn't have navigated the last 10 years without you. I don't think I'd

40:54 I think my successes are yours.

40:58 Same well, I appreciate that Honesty. Peace, because you know everything about me so I can't really take it and get away with it very much. So I love that you hold me to truth and help me figure out how to move forward and

41:19 And that's the most important piece maybe or an important piece.

41:28 Not agree with that that that you've sometimes said things I didn't want to hear but I'm so grateful. You said then I'm so grateful that I heard them in and had what I needed honesty.

41:43 It Made Me Stronger I needed it I was

41:47 You've been my true north.

41:53 Compare a lot.

41:59 Yeah, I have a couple minutes left wondering if there are any

42:06 Vinyl record player

42:11 Keep on

42:15 I don't know why I want to remember that most of the time most of our life together is laughing and having so much fun.

42:26 No, I love playing with you and I think we might have to pick that up again after we get our children off to college maybe. Yeah, but I love the fun that we've had right and that carries us through to yeah, so many fun days either sharing a rope or flying an airplane somewhere or whatever it is or just laughing so hard. Yeah, yes or teaching that's some of the funniest times that we've had is on the boat across Jenny Lake or

43:06 Teaching a woman to rock her right one of the rock climbing clinics together. Yeah, totally just the funny comments we get from people. I'm glad I wish my mom find

43:21 I have actually to follow up questions. I'm wondering if you

43:29 Amy and Annie if you could talk about

43:34 What it felt like to climb after Todd's death and how it might have changed your relationships the mountain aside from safety, but on a more emotional level if if that Rings true for you.

43:51 Yeah, it's it. Absolutely I remember not wanting to climb for a little while after Todd died. I was so scared. I didn't climb I didn't fly the airplane that just sat in the hanger. I realized that I was a single parent and I was scared for a while. But then when I started coming out of the fog I realized that I didn't want my children to be afraid. I wanted them to do whatever it was that made them happy and if it was flying or claiming or reading a book it didn't matter. I didn't want my fear 2

44:41 Ruin their chances at excitement or Adventure

44:48 And I so I think you might remember this better, but I don't think I was scared for very long and I think when I did start climbing again, it felt like I was home.

45:03 I remember you being so scared. I remember coming over to Lander and saying well, let's just go for a walk cuz you didn't want to go climb that I talked you into walking up to the Crag to blame me and then you took shoes and I would saved why you just take a lap and you'd say well, okay, and then I could see your body. Love it I get to see.

45:26 You are like back to what you knew and loved.

45:31 And that Arena that you'd spent so much time in that was home. I'm sure it felt like home.

45:38 And laughing and you know having snacks and just letting it be what it was without pressure. And then I remember

45:49 You just got after it more and more that was such strong work and you would bring Sarah and her friends and Hannah and Jake to the Crags and we'd introduce them to it.

46:00 We felt like we hadn't done that as much as maybe we should have you know, but we were so busy.

46:08 Yeah, I was thinking about that on the drive over today. I thought one of my proudest accomplishments with you with getting six children on top of El Roco in one hot spring break day in the lab talk about it. No doubt man. That was huge desert Tower with six kids and we were with that date palm. And yeah that were we thinking

46:40 And then my other fellow question in there for someone who might be listening to this recording.

46:52 They might be wondering and I might have gotten this question before you know.

46:58 Why Climb by keep going why?

47:02 Take that risk.

47:05 What is climbing means you that it's worth the risk? What does it provide for you?

47:15 Oh, I got that.

47:19 I'm sorry, just cuz my voice will be.

47:22 Rephrase the question. Like I don't know if people that do that before.

47:29 Yeah, like climbing a tall and why continue?

47:34 I think it's human nature to want to explore your own boundaries and know who you are better. And so climbing for me has been a vehicle for that not only to have found my closest friendships and most meaningful.

47:50 Longest lasting friendship

47:53 But also that bump up against fear.

47:56 Cuz fear

47:59 It's always been something that I've felt in my life since I was a little girl and when I go climbing I have to confront it or it's paralyzing so I have to listen to it. I have to identify if it's valid.

48:17 If it can inform me, I've spent some years or Liam and climbing career trying to push it away and just be Fearless but that wasn't working and it took me awhile to realize that it just wasn't on authentic solution. What I needed to do was realize I had a lot of fear and I needed to hear what I had to tell me and go through that like a checklist and evaluate what it meant that I have control over any of those things that it was identifying for me was I mitigating those risks sufficiently in order to continue. I think of it like a bank account in a way that the dad that the addition am I keeping it in the the gray area at least not the block another way to my am I staying where it's safe enough to be here, or do I need to turn back?

49:13 Do for me. I think it's given me wings and other parts of my life that I would be to locked up and afraid if I hadn't learned how to handle fear.

49:25 Yeah, and I've learned that so much from you and for me it was even more basic than that.

49:33 That time that I was too afraid to go climbing. I just missed my people I missed being outside. I missed the fun of the movement and the satisfaction of getting to the top of something. It was really

49:52 Basic stuff that I thought I can stay home and be afraid or I can go to when I left to do with the people. I want to be with. What's the big thing for me?

50:08 Thank you so much. Thank you.

50:13 Thank you, my friend. Thank you.

50:19 What's the lad isn't it though? It's really 40 minutes.

50:27 Oh my gosh.