Amanda Keller and Lauren Jacobs

[00:04] LAUREN JACOBS: My name is Lauren Jacobs. My pronouns are she, her, and hers. I am 27 years old. It is March 2, 2019. We are at the Magic City Acceptance center in Birmingham, Alabama, where I work and my boss, my partner in this interview, Amanda. That's how we know each other from our work here.

[00:27] AMANDA KELLER: My name is Amanda keller. I am 34. Today is Saturday, March 2, 2019. We are at the Magic City Acceptance center, where I also work, and my partner is someone who I've worked with for five years.

[00:44] LAUREN JACOBS: I should say we're friends, too. I meant to say that I had it in my head to say that, and then I. Yeah, also, I just want on record that you one upped me by saying Saturday, March 2nd.

[00:58] AMANDA KELLER: I think I forgot my pronouns.

[00:59] LAUREN JACOBS: So do you want to share your pronouns?

[01:01] AMANDA KELLER: My pronouns are she, her, hers.

[01:03] LAUREN JACOBS: Cool. So, like we said, we are at Magic City Acceptance center, where you are the founding director of an LGBTQ center in Birmingham, Alabama. So I would like to ask you to tell your coming out story, or coming out stories. Plural.

[01:27] AMANDA KELLER: Yeah. So my favorite thing to tell people is that I'm the founding director of Alabama's or Birmingham's first and only LGBTQ youth center, which I happened to be the director of for a solid two to three years before anyone had any idea I identified as LGBTQ or part of the community. You were the first person I ever came out to in a parking lot outside of a school where we had just visited a gsa. And I remember panicking because they asked us to go around and identify ourselves. And I felt that as the director of an LGBTQ center, I should be able to identify myself. And instead, I excused myself to go to the restroom while that exercise happened, and then had a moment outside afterwards and had to explain the reason for my meltdown. So thanks for being there as the first person I could come out to and feel safe in doing so. And then over time, I slowly started to tell people more, and I was bi, and I felt comfortable being in that place for a while and having that space as someone who had a male partner. And then I just finally really came out more recently in, like, the last year, feeling very comfortable identifying as queer, publicly identifying as queer. And it's out there now, so that feels really good.

[03:08] LAUREN JACOBS: Was I. You've said that I was the first person that you came out to, but was I really and truly the first person that you. I'm the first person that you said an identity to?

[03:19] AMANDA KELLER: Yeah, you're the very first person I spoke the words to besides myself when.

[03:26] LAUREN JACOBS: Did you realize.

[03:29] AMANDA KELLER: I. We've talked about this. I think. I think you have those moments with yourself where you have little things happen and you're like, oh, that's new. That's interesting. I'm feeling this way. I'm noticing this about myself. But what's interesting is I had several experiences in my life with members of the community who informed me that I would absolutely know. If I was certain, I would absolutely be sure or I would have some sense. And my favorite thing about doing this work is that I get to tell people, you don't have to be certain. You don't have to know. Because I spent a lot of time going back into the closet throughout my life and didn't come out officially until I was 28 years old because I had other people in the community tell me I wasn't enough. I wasn't sure enough. I didn't know enough about myself to be able to be who I was. And now here I am, looking back, thinking about all the years where I could have just been living more authentically.

[04:35] LAUREN JACOBS: Yeah, I've heard you say that you feel like you missed out on things by coming out at 28. What do you think you missed out on?

[04:49] AMANDA KELLER: It has been really challenging for me to watch young people be able to live so fully and authentically and know at 10, at 14, at 17, at 21, like, exactly who they are and how they feel. And it's certainly not easy for anyone. It has not been easier for them. I know that they're different challenges for young people in coming out and their safety in coming out, but they at least are able to live that life and know versus coming out later and changing the narrative around who you are and trying to prove to people who you are as an adult, trying to change the perceptions of who you are and constantly having to fight in environments just to be seen the way I want to be seen again as the director of an LGBTQ center and not being seen as part of the queer community. That's been the most interesting challenge of my life, is being viewed as straight and regularly being called straight because of my presentation. So that has been so frustrating for me because I exist in spaces and it is assumed that my existence in that space is work related and not because I could possibly identify as a member of the community.

[06:12] LAUREN JACOBS: You said your presentation. What is your presentation? What do you mean?

[06:15] AMANDA KELLER: I am super feminine. I'm very girly. I love lipstick and makeup and heels and dresses. And so I am often a victim of femme presentation in which I just don't look visibly queer.

[06:33] LAUREN JACOBS: Unlike me.

[06:35] AMANDA KELLER: People know I am not a butch. So. Yeah. And that's. That is one of my favorite things about also having you as a friend. And I've told you this so many times. Like, I love when we are in public and people notice you as, like, a person who is visibly queer. And I feel like I get that high, that secondary high of possibly being seen as queer because I am just with you. So by association, I have that street credit, finally, versus if I'm just by myself somewhere. There's. There's no possible way to the point where, you know, I've considered getting a tattoo so that people know, like, there's something visible on me. To let people know you need to.

[07:20] LAUREN JACOBS: Get a side shave. That's my best suggestion.

[07:26] AMANDA KELLER: There's still time that can happen.

[07:30] LAUREN JACOBS: So in the period of time before you started telling people more publicly that you did identify within the community, do you. Were you comfortable letting people assume that you were straight? Did you feel pressure every single time that assumption was made? How was that?

[07:56] AMANDA KELLER: It was awful, I think because of that silent struggle that I was having of each and every time you make a decision for your safety, for multiple reasons, about whether or not you're going to come out and to whom and why, and if it's something that's even worth your time and if you want to have an argument with that person about it. And so it was a struggle because I was trying to balance supporting my male partner and making him feel affirmed and comfortable and not threatened by my identity, which in and of itself is a. Is a separate conversation, but then also just wanting to be seen and felt, be acknowledged and feel that I can just be myself. And so I think the anxiety that I had during that time, it was deeply painful and frustrating, again, to be doing this work and be so active in the community and constantly struggling to just feel seen when my entire job is to uplift the voices of the LGBTQ community and support people in being who they are. So the dichotomy of, like, me supporting everyone else while not being supported myself and trying to just be who I am was really interesting and deeply painful for me some days, I think, which is why I kind of shifted my narrative to. I remember the night where I got on the microphone and I think I announced that I was aggressively bisexual, which was a completely unintended, like, word vomit. But that happened because I just. I think something clicked in me and it just snapped or I just needed people to know I needed to be heard. And so I Got a lot more vocal from then on.

[09:47] LAUREN JACOBS: I think I am pretty practiced at not assuming anyone's identity. Like, by the time I met you, I was really. I really and truly try not to assume things, but I think I heard you say a few times that you were straight. And so I was like, huh, that's interesting. I think I told you this, but you put into conflict for me, like, two very, like, opposing ideas. One, that nobody ever owes anybody their outness, and two, that LGBTQ people should run LGBTQ things. And I had never thought about, like, those things being in conflict with one another until you. And then I was like, whatever she does, good work. We'll figure it out. So I think I felt relief when you came out. I was like, oh, good. But I think I can't remember if I knew at that time as much about your dad. Do you want to tell stories about your dad before you knew anything about his identity?

[10:56] AMANDA KELLER: Yeah. So, growing up, I had a father who was very different than everyone else's father. My dad made all of my Halloween costumes, and they were gorgeous. I was sent to school as Scarlett O'Hara in the fourth grade with a full hoop skirt in Cleveland, Ohio. They didn't know who Scarlet O'Hara was, but I did. And I was offended because I was perfectly costumed. He cooked. He had elaborate dinner parties. I had so many uncles who I could never quite understand their relationship to our family. We were in the circus because he was a theater director and somehow landed a gig where the entire family was put in the circus. I had an incredibly interesting childhood until I was 17, and I was sat down and I was told.

[11:56] LAUREN JACOBS: Will you tell that slower?

[11:57] AMANDA KELLER: I'm sorry. Yeah.

[11:58] LAUREN JACOBS: I'm like. I've never. I don't think I've ever asked you to talk about that in detail. Like, how did they come and get you? Do you remember?

[12:05] AMANDA KELLER: Yeah. So my parents were going through a horrific divorce. It started when I was in seventh grade and kind of ended by the time I was a junior in high school. From what I remember, it was bad. It was a really bad, really ugly separation. And the sad thing is that my dad was incredibly sick, and he wasn't acting like himself, and my mom just wanted out, and I wanted out, and I wanted nothing to do with him because he didn't make sense. He wasn't the person that I knew. And so by that point, he was living in another house on, like, the edge of town. And it felt like a place that was inaccessible, and it was inaccessible, and I didn't Want to go there? It felt dark and sad, and it was a negative place for me. And my brother had moved in with my dad, and I lived with my mom, and my brother and I weren't speaking. It was a really weird time for all of us. And finally, my dad had been doing all these tests, trying to figure out what was wrong with him. His whole family had a long history of cancer, and so we were like, it's some kind of cancer. Like, he's sick. So one night, my parents asked all of us to come together, which was an odd moment for me because my brother and I hadn't spoken. My dad and I weren't on good terms. I wasn't allowed to go visit him. So I remember we gathered in this negative place in this, like, dark house that didn't feel like a home and sat down at his kitchen table, and my parents told me he was HIV positive. And he had been so for over 10 years and was dying and was given six months to live. And so, as a teenager, my entire life changed. I learned that my father had identified as bi and had several partners throughout his life. And so I spent the last six months of his life getting to know my dad authentically and the person he wanted to be and the person he wanted to show us but didn't feel safe to do so or comfortable being that person. He was a huge community figure. So he. He worked in the schools. He was a theater director in our local high school. He would have lost his job for being a gay man. And so the story, as I understood it, was he just wanted a family. And so he married my mom. He was crazy about my mom. He married her. He loved her. He did his very best. But they had a family. They were married for 23 years, and then he started getting sick. And I think they both realized they couldn't make it work anymore. So in the last six months, I spent time. I remember he loved this one diner where a lot of the drag queens liked to go and eat lunch. And so that was my first introduction to drag queens and that world. And I just. I loved it. And I loved getting to know the real him. And I felt like I got closer to him in the very last stage of his life. And so he died in November 2018. Gosh. Not 2018. 2003, when I was 18. And I have spent the last however many years working to make sure that other people have spaces to be authentic and be who they are and have an opportunity to not have to wait until the end of their life. To be who they want to be. Which is ironic that I created the space for others, but not for myself. So that's why this is so important to me now, to be open and to talk about it.

[16:30] LAUREN JACOBS: I am remembering that I think, um, the. I think I did know the story about your dad at some point before you came out to me. And I think it sounds awful, but I was like, oh, like, that's. And I think you kind of used this story. Not used it, but you told that story because it's true to why you were doing the work that you were doing. And so it's been interesting to see you talk more about yourself and your identity as opposed to your father's. Did he use the word bisexual?

[17:08] AMANDA KELLER: No, I actually had to ask. Like, he just said he was gay. And it's funny because my mom. It's so funny that I identified as bi to make my previous partner feel more comfortable. My mom, when she talks about it, says he was bi. And I think that she says that to make herself feel comfortable. I'm not sure, but he just. He never really labeled himself. He was just like, I am who I am. Like, so I don't. Labels are hard, but it's. I have been told bisexual, so that's what we're gonna go with.

[17:50] LAUREN JACOBS: What else did you ask him after you found out?

[17:55] AMANDA KELLER: I had a really hard time engaging with him directly in conversation. It was less about, like, who are you? How do you identify what relationships look like for you? Because at 17, 18 years old, that's a really hard, really advanced conversation to have. It was more just like spending time with him, eating food together, sitting down over a meal, and just sitting and being present with one another. He wanted to talk to me about a lot about my relationships. He was very interested in me and what I was doing, which is why we've talked about this, why fun home means so much to me, because fun home is such a distinct parallel to my life of the. Like, me coming out and realizing I was coming out to myself. And he might have also been realizing it. And so he was very interested in my relationships and talking to me about my life and what I was up to and what I was interested in. And I'm sad that I can't go back in time and, like, have a more intentional conversation with him about him and his relationships. And I think since losing him, I've tried to do some of that work and reach out to old family friends and learn a little bit more, but I didn't get to ask him as Many things as I wanted to, and certainly it felt taboo. It didn't feel okay to ask him all the things I wanted to ask. And so we kept it very pleasant. But I'll never forget he was in love with this nurse he had who was a trans woman. And that was the first time in my life I had ever been around a trans person. And it just to be 17 and find out that your theater director father is in fact gay and shocker and HIV positive and incredibly sick and like just trying to catch up with all of that and then on top of it being introduced to his nurse who he's just in love with. It was all so much. So I was, I was doing well just to like speak words sometimes that makes sense.

[20:12] LAUREN JACOBS: Did you, did you. I know I don't think you would have thought about it in these terms for sure, but did you have any sense of yourself as queer when you found out that your dad was gay?

[20:30] AMANDA KELLER: I think that there were parts of me I'll never forget. My quote unquote best friend in high school who probably was not my best friend in high school, had aided in spreading some rumors which I worked really hard to combat. So when he came out, my understanding of being gay was very negative. It was bad, it was. He was sick, he was dying. Like, this is what happens to gay people. That's what was taught in my school. So that was the first time in my life that I immediately tried to go back in the closet from like any feelings I even potentially had. I was, I was like, oh yeah, no, this is not good. This is absolutely why you're not gay. And that's horrific to experience that and see someone else going through that. And that have been my takeaway. But I think that was the first time where I was like, this is not who I am. I'm not this. As if that's the only experience that the community could have. That was my limited interaction with the community at that time.

[21:47] LAUREN JACOBS: I like said I was going to grill you and I feel like I'm doing it. I'm curious if there's anything that you. This is such an open ended question. Is there anything that you haven't told me about? I feel like you're like really protective over some parts of the story. That's not a question. Oh no, I'm losing it. What don't people know? You are a very public figure, like you said, like your dad was and doing similar kinds of things. Like what don't people know that you wish that they did?

[22:56] AMANDA KELLER: I wish people knew that.

[23:02] LAUREN JACOBS: It'S.

[23:03] AMANDA KELLER: I think that because I'm a public figure and because I've told this story so many times, it sounds like this lovely thing, right of. You know, I came to an AIDS service organization because I lost my father to HIV related complications. And I did work for the community because it was important to create that space. But what people don't realize is the. That representation burnout we've talked about, like, the pain, the hurt, the amount of processing I've done in sharing that story. I have a deep fear that I'm not doing my father justice. I'm not honoring his memory. It was a very long time ago, and every time I talk about it, I hope that I'm doing him justice and myself justice. And I think as often as I tell it, there's a deep insecurity in telling our own personal stories and the way that they have to be changed and kind of zhuzhed up to be better for people. And so I. I wish people knew the pain in having to retell your stories over and over and over. No, I love telling you. I've told you everything. You don't need to make a face. I think with you, it felt natural and authentic because you were the first person that I met and we did this work together. And it's important that you understand who I am and my background in order for us to trust each other. Right. Like, you talked about questioning me. And I appreciate you allowing me to, like, lead and share in this leadership and share in this role and figure out what it looks like to create this space. But we couldn't have done that without trust. And so there are very few people I felt comfortable really sharing the whole story. And so I kind of appreciate the opportunity to share more now, like a more raw and real way and not just the peppy little fundraiser speech that we do.

[25:24] LAUREN JACOBS: I was gonna ask if you felt put on the spot to, like, bring out your traumas as I'm putting you on the spot to tell this story.

[25:36] AMANDA KELLER: I think it's something that a lot of us do in this work, right? Like, we have to talk about our traumas. We have to have speak from a place of knowledge. Because it's not fair or right for me to speak to other people's experiences, so I can only speak to my own. And I'm incredibly grateful that I have these experiences that have shaped me to help me do this work. But I mean, HIV has changed so, so, so much. And I constantly fight the rhetoric around it being a death sentence, and it being something bad. But I remember when I first started doing this work, I was frustrated because HIV to me was a death sentence the first time I heard it. It also was coupled with, and he has six months to live. And so that was my understanding, and it was awful. I watched him waste away. I watched him change physically and mentally. I watched him not be able to communicate in a way that felt logical. He sent me a birthday card one year and told me Bill Clinton was going to come play saxophone at my birthday. And I actually believed him. And I remember how much that hurt to have to have someone explain to me that when people are HIV positive and it progresses to aids, they're frontal lobe becomes affected, and the frontal lobe is where your reasoning occurs. So I had to grow up really quickly. And so my relationship to HIV and the understanding of it is, at the time that was. It is that it was a death sentence. And it is a terrible, tragic thing, and it still is. But I wish people had the experience that I have now, which is working at an aid service organization for over nine years, being able to expand into LGBTQ work like we've done, and having a totally different view of people can live and be healthy and happy. And I am deeply appreciative of this organization giving me a different view on what HIV looks like and what LGBTQ looks like and thriving in the south and having all of those things be separate and unique and doing okay in the south. Like, it's. It's okay to be HIV positive, it's okay to be lgbtq, it's okay to exist in the south and thrive and be here.

[28:18] LAUREN JACOBS: I'm gonna ask you a horrible conjecture question.

[28:21] AMANDA KELLER: Okay.

[28:22] LAUREN JACOBS: What do you think your dad would think of what you do?

[28:29] AMANDA KELLER: I've been told over and over how proud he would be as a theater director. His big saying to me was, always, sing out, Louise. I was very quiet when I was little. I liked to be in the background. I don't think he thought I had a voice. And because I lost him, I found a voice. And so seeing me do the work that I do and speak at community events and stand on a stage with 1500 people and emcee LGBTQ events, I think he would be so proud and so shocked, and it makes me sad because I think we would have the best relationship in so many incredible conversations. And I hate that he's not here to talk about that with.

[29:36] LAUREN JACOBS: I hate it, too. I do. I like. That's not fair.

[29:55] AMANDA KELLER: You.

[30:04] LAUREN JACOBS: I'm thinking. I'm sorry. I'm, like, trying to, like, I'm coming back. Okay. You said something about, like, wanting to do him justice and, like, wanting to, like, honor his memory. I have another horrible conjecture question for you. What do you want people to remember about you?

[30:30] AMANDA KELLER: I am aggressively queer. I just want people to remember that, first and foremost, I'm a human. Like, I am. I'm human. I think so often we expect community members doing this work to be on all the time, and people forget that I have bad days and I have trauma and deep pain around things, and I'm doing my best, and I love this work, and I'm so honored to do this work. And I hope that people just remember how much I cared and how much I fought and how much I worked to create the space and continue to create this space. And then I'm, like, super funny and charming and lovely, and I don't know. I just want people to know. I'm more than this work. I'm more than my story. I'm also a human. I'm also someone who's fighting for myself, for all of us. So I hope people can, every once in a while, just see me as a person who just happens to have this incredible opportunity to do this work.

[31:52] LAUREN JACOBS: Favorite work Memories.

[31:57] AMANDA KELLER: When we had the lock in and watched Cats, because that is what the youth wanted to watch is we watched the entire musical of cats in separate YouTube clips, and while everyone else was asleep, we sat in the middle of the center floor and I think threw pound cake at each other out of being completely delirious and feeling so lucky to be able to do this work and be in a room of 20 plus sleeping LGBTQ youth who were safe inside of our building and so happy after watching Cats and having watched a musical in this space, which I know my dad would have loved. It just was such a full circle moment for me. That was one of my favorites.

[32:48] LAUREN JACOBS: I don't know what I expected you to say. I knew that was one of your favorites, but I kind of. The one that danced around the room is Rum Tongue Tugger at whatever it was, like, past midnight. I was the one who wanted to put it on. Yep. Because they had been Rum Tum Tugger in a production. Gay people in musical. What? Well, this is like, backtracking. You've told me that there are so many similarities between you and your father that, like, I just imagine him as this, like, guy, you in the 90s in the early 2000s. Will you talk about similarities between the two of you?

[33:44] AMANDA KELLER: We both have very big personalities. We both have the same laugh he. I think I've tried to find it to play for you, but we both. I remember when I was younger, hearing his laugh echo from the back of the auditorium. He was known for this, like, mixture of a cackle and a. I don't know. It's just. It's a very unique laugh. And I'm pretty sure we have the same laugh, which initially embarrassed me, and now I embrace it so deeply.

[34:15] LAUREN JACOBS: I can hear you laughing from across.

[34:17] AMANDA KELLER: The building when I do my big laugh. Yeah, like, put my head back and laugh. That is when I hear Bob come out. I love that. He taught me so much of what I know about organizing. He taught me what having a temper looks like. And he taught me what it means to be, like, structured and hardworking, but to also have more heart than anyone would ever expect you to have. He was one of the warmest people I knew, but also so deeply respected and revered that, like, people didn't expect him to have the heart that he did. So I'm so pleased. I think I learned that from him.

[35:00] LAUREN JACOBS: Yeah, that's you. There's one day we should talk about your mom.

[35:07] AMANDA KELLER: She's lovely, too. She's great.