TradeMark Gunderson and Christy Brand

00:04 Okay, my name is trademark Gunderson. My age is 50 and 53 write today's date is Sunday, July 28th of 2019 were in Columbus, Ohio and I'm interviewing Christy brand. She is my wife between makes me her husband. My name is Christy brand. I am 51 years old. Today is Sunday, July 28th, 2019. We are currently located in Columbus, Ohio and today I am interviewing my husband trademark Gunderson.

00:42 So, let's see. I guess I'm the one with the list so it probably means I get us going here. And I one thing I was thinking that we could start about which would get us onto the the sort of brought her topic a burning man would be the Burning Man. Audio art project that I did. Yeah, and so just let's see. So that was God. When did I do that? I guess I was doing that in about 2,000 I believe so, I think you started that project before you and I met and take Ashley with you. I even have the project going before that where I was putting cheap tape recorders out with a blank tape in them. Just asking people to record something and pass it on. Boombah. The instructions are painted on the cassette recorder. And so I was curious to see what story is that I would get on there and Sony actually hate being around. I am at storycorps wanting to see like what that looks like in a better way maybe or something like that and

01:42 I don't know, but did you ever think I guess I never really asked you like what you thought about that whole project because you certainly witnessed it enough times and heard enough stories come back from cassette so that we would get back while we are camped at Burning Man and here I would be excited leave listen to at night. I can't remember if you ever told me what you thought about that difficult thing. I really love storytelling. I'm a big fan of This American Life. In fact, I'm such a big fan that when Ira Glass was here and did a talk at the University. I was there in attendance and he walked past me and I nearly fainted with with fandom my geek fandub with for Ira Glass. So I've always loved storytelling and I used to imagine myself actually doing some form of public storytelling. Although I've never done it other than radio which is kind of a form of public storytelling but I left the idea of being a burning man in and you putting out these cuz that work

02:42 Orders and having them go out and have adventures and then make their way back in and see where they have gone in and what people had set into the into the tapes and like most things some of the stories were better than others. Yeah, but I think to this day like it's still gave me, you know, I seen that we've all seen so many pictures of Burning Man which is something that really has changed so many so much over the years since we met there in 2002 and but the recordings that came back on these cassettes or something. It really gave me an insight and a feeling of for the general feeling of being there more much more so than photos and videos ever did especially the nightlife when it's just so dark there that most that many photos and videos just don't work and the recordings the audio would give these intimate stories and sort of confessions from people. I mean, some of them were ridiculous party meals.

03:42 Things and it really gave me this feeling for the likes of power of that kind of document or something like that. Like, you know that is being able to store and save that story from someone was really powerful. Was there a story that is that you could stand out to you? That was a particular favorite of yours. I know I'm putting you on the spot here to see if you can remember one good ones. I'm remembering one where there is a guy and you can hear him walking across and we must be far away from things. That sounds like he's kind of man. He is alone in the desert save for the however many thousands of people that are you know, a few thousand feet from him and he's sort of saying like, I'm I'm kind of in this different headspace everything Sonic and feels new and different and strange. I pooped yellow this more.

04:42 And I think my pants are falling down, but I'm okay with that kind of admissions that I thought like wow. That was really I mean in a way very open and kind of vulnerable, of course on the other hand. I've never met him and I never will and I never will know who it is. It's not like I buy hand off these tape recorders and they go on their own way. I never see who has them. So in a way these stories come back that can be very confessional and very meaningful and authentic yet at the same time of I'll never meet these people and couldn't find them. Do you think that people are more confessional with things like tape recorders or when they're not face-to-face with people or do you think that people open up more with each other and interpersonal I would say probably when they're alone there a bit more open.

05:41 At least with the recordings that we would get back to stories that I heard. I think the ones that set with me a bit more were the ones where it seemed like people were either alone or at least talking alone the ones where people ready group they tend to be often kind of competing with each other and they tend to have a little bit of a guard up where is with it when they're alone. They tend to open up a bit more and I think of something else about like the nature of a burning man at self as an event as a place that you go to that you stay at the end people are expected to be participatory and in so they just hit me with it. It worked out to be sort of a perfect storm for this project to get people talking and then maybe this is like a good time to maybe talk a little bit about Burning Man culture in and of course, this is how we met were married. We've been married 2008, right?

06:41 7 mm to at Burning Man. And so this was with I was living here in Columbus, Ohio. You were living in San Francisco. That's right. We just happened to meet what late one night just before Dawn. He was camping with us name Bethany. And you had you had met her previously at Burning Man. So you had been visiting our camp to to see your friend who's also my friend but things that we had maybe a past each other in Camp, but yes, it was late. Well, I was going to stay late one night, but really early one morning at about 5 a.m. That you were in Camp and we were all everybody going to go out and watch the sunrise and I kissed you and ran away.

07:41 You the next day and I got you. All right, you know it's it's like, you know, if you've mentioned burning man today, it would probably conjure up something pretty different than what we experienced back. Then when you say probably as you said things evolve over time and burning man certainly has evolved a lot since 2002 when we being in Ohio, you don't get the experience of the sort of culture that is around it. Especially if it's out in San Francisco because in San Francisco, it's practically a city holiday and but there's this whole sort of ancillary culture that's around us that I guess in a way it's kind of like not I've been to Grateful Dead shows but I would imagine Grateful Dead culture to be kind of like that in a sense. There's the band there's the shows but then there's also this whole culture

08:41 That revolves around it that exists on country on its own and burning man has that it away too and there was much more prevalent than acknowledged and find a revered maybe back then I would say there is the spirit of

08:58 I don't know less of a party kind of atmosphere. I mean that certainly was there and always has been but yet at the same time, he was a much harder experience because you're going to the middle of a desert and there's not so many things. You can rely on on the way there to make sure everything's going to work out. Okay, and it just wasn't quite as established and there was more of a frontier maybe spirit with it. I think. Yeah. I know that the Burning Man organization initially really liked the location of Black Rock City, which is in Nevada at a dry dried lake bed because of that aspect that you're talking about. The the terrain is so rugged and then so difficult that you really have to work together as a community to sort of survive it and that has led to I think one of their principles of radical inclusion, you know, really allowing everybody and taking care of one. Another is really important. That was something

09:58 Was really notable. When I first went out there was that sense of community in one and everybody taking care of one another which out there could be really vital. It could be a matter of life and death. I think that it's still probably exists now, but now is 70,000 people. They definitely have much more of an infrastructure happening then and they did when they first started really felt like 20 years ago. Like you could really feel like you could really feel big out there and you know that risk is something that I don't know if you can really feel that way anymore. I mean you could but he would he would be very different sort of way. They wouldn't be because you'd wander off in the middle of the desert. No one would find you someone who can find you now and like back then it it seems like there was moving more freedom and it sounds like freedom to fail or feed him to succeed in some ways to I think that atmosphere of community definitely led to the development of some really close bonds.

10:58 For obviously for us we met out there and here we are married. However, many years later having succeeded in a long distance relationship from Ohio to San Francisco for so long after we met that was one thing. I was thinking that I mean that was so daunting, you know, we're separated by thousands of miles. We met once at a festival for just a few days. Why make that work? Why pursue that?

11:33 That's a great question. I mean there were things that happened that helped us along going on, you know, a couple months few months after burning man going on tour together in Germany was definitely a bonding experience, you know, that was another survival experience of being on the road together when we didn't know each other very well and go traveling from City to City to see you know, how we're going to survive with each other and in the country that was foreign and in a relationship that was new about time. I was performing a lot of music and so I looked into being able to set up my what I had six years in Germany and a few else in Europe. And so I didn't and I wasn't performing or traveling with anyone else and so you became yet. Why did you ever say yesterday? Actually, how could you ever say? No, I remember it being the end of the year was in December and having some extra vacation time.

12:33 When being a project manager by vocation, I I saw an opportunity to be a tour manager help you along on that. What's a little bit group grueling considering that like you said it was 6 days in Germany back-to-back plane in different cities playing at night and driving. I remember racing along the Autobahn the next day to get to the next city to make it in time for your performance. And that was somewhat Intense or whatever. It was perhaps just as daunting as going out into the middle of the desert and trying to find this big event and even though that has certainly had plenty of structure to but then again so did our tour about all those things were really pushing Us in ways that I guess in a way may be revealed.

13:26 Probably or would have revealed ways that we wouldn't work and I guess it didn't or maybe I did and we were okay with it. Right? Well, I remember going into it thinking about how intense The Experience would be to spend so much time with somebody that I didn't know very well and that it would either be the kind of situation that would cause us to fall in love with each other and never want to see each other again. Obviously we ended up at the end of the tour falling in love is supposed to the the opposite where we would never speak again while we were already in love. It was that we know we've solidified it we made it realer

14:13 Yeah, so maybe surviving that kind of an experience or solidifying our relationship to that sort of an experience gave us the motivation to overcome the long distance the distance of 3000 miles to where we could be together in the same city with y'all together then it's like well, we're already in the same country. We can make it a few thousand miles.

14:42 Do you think there any I was thinking back to sort of Burning Man days since we've we haven't been there since 2010. It's 2019 now, so we're separated from that now. Yeah, we still always watching we still over always interested in it. And of course part of that I worry about that. If we ever got back there of that would be sorely disappointed if maybe because it might be so different and then also, of course, let's CIA Iran. I was managing the radio station there for many years and then also did audio art installations for a few years. And so we kind of had a good there in a way like we had things paid for and some privileges and whatever.

15:40 Good enough.

15:42 I have it all the time too. So, let's see. So I'm going to Burning Man and being involved with the radio station and doing art art projects by commissioned from them really give us some privileges of going there. And I wonder if we go back, you know, just as mortal civilians, you know, it's going to be as good of an experience. Maybe it'll be even better. I don't know but then again it's such a huge thing. You know. It's gotten what 20,000 people bigger than the last time we were there I think yeah something like that. Well, I you know, I have a couple of different thoughts about that one is that you know having the perks that we had when we went we're really nice and made it much more comfortable. But then again, it's the kind of situation where it's it is what you make of it. So I think when you go to a place like that where the possibilities are sort of endless, you know, you kind of make your own experience out of it you can

16:42 Either be miserable in the heat end with you know, a large population of people or you can be adventurous and go out and experience, you know different forms of arts and meet new people and celebrate that I think it's just really what you take to the experience which is maybe true of anything in life worth. I'm old now. Can I go back to something like burning man and actually Thrive or survive? I don't even know if only you would know but a lot of old there are older people out there kind of experiences.

17:33 That's a good question. I think that some of the things I took away word to try to bring and wonder until life. I know that something that I found really inspirational when I first went out there where the really massive artworks or maybe not even that's of artworks, but just the amount of art that was out there that only existed for the time span of a week and then disappear or you know, we're taking taking back to the artists Warehouse or in some cases burned and that people would work so hard for something that was only experienced for a short. Of time and that they had you know, their ego didn't get in the way that they were able to let go of it at the end and I thought that that was something that was really inspiring and something I try to take away from that is, you know, doing things without necessarily a means to an end or needing, you know accolades or or appreciation to do things because you're inspired.

18:32 Yeah, funny thinking to this morning's Buddhist session that we went to where there was a discussion about. What was it when the brakes or whatever you have a cup or whatever that once it's broken. It's no longer a cup and this thing ceases to be the thing. You remember it in your life. Of course. This is all talking about help things are only going to last a little while right the discussion about the impermanence of things that everything is constantly changing and you can appreciate the thing for for what it is in the in the shape in the form that it is done in a way that making artwork for if you're going to Burning Man or a I suppose any Festival that's just a limited mealtime. People are only going to experience it for that little while being at that Festival but knew you were none the less we'll do it. Anyway, even if it's you want to know maybe there's less reward for that then having it in a museum for

19:32 Months or years or something like that? Yeah. I think it's just about you know, preciate and things as they are and and accepting change.

19:50 Trying to think of like some of the lessons or whatever that Burning Man or those experiences of has stayed with me or taught us that no, I mean after all we we met out there and we were really and we made it our experience to go back every year for so many years since when you meet at burning man, you must celebrate your birth anniversary out there, right? So, I don't know if other people celebrate you think about like all that trying to think of other people that we know that really made a huge connections friends wives, whatever out of burning man. I'm sure we must have a few but that really did Forge a lot of connections with people. I mean for that matter Bethany's our friend that we met through I'm so

20:50 No friends to this day. It's why she's one of the few people I speak to regularly. And I know I think that says some a lot for that experience for that event for that culture as well. Yeah, it is a very unique.

21:06 Environment and I always would joke with people that I would see relationships where people would either fall in love and commit to their to each other for the rest of their lives or they would have a very passionate but very short-term relationship seemed like things either went one of two ways long commitment or quick burn out of course burning man gets associated with drugs a lot and I think it away Burning Man itself is is almost like a drug like drugs tend to get amplify your your personality will be the best parts in the worst Parts get turned up to 11 and it away Burning Man does that to it's sort of this extreme environment and challenge that brings out the best in you or the worse than yeah, usually brings out both and everybody out there. I I find, you know at some point of people here had a Breaking Point whether it's the Heat or the dust storms that come up where you're in a white out in

22:06 Can't see in front of you or you know, maybe your campmate ate your food. Do you have any regrets from those times?

22:20 I don't think so. You know, he's a very

22:27 Interesting time and I feel like I learned a lot and got a lot from going to the to that Festival. I feel pretty good about what I did there. I mean doing radio work, they're doing having those tape recorders out collecting my stories of my art project. I'm doing art installations was pretty you pretty rewarding. I feel like I I did everything as well as I could have or should have maybe if you want to tell each other about

23:05 The first burning man that you went to listen to you first went in 2001 and I know that year it was the only year I missed since beginning to go in 1999 until I stopped going in 2010. But what was that you're like for you well, so yeah. So my first year out there was two thousand and one and when you live in San Francisco, you hear about Bernie Mac quite a bit cuz it's it's pretty close to to where the event is held and that's where their headquarters and so when you're living there you hear about it or you know people that are involved in it. And when I first heard about it, it didn't have any appeal to me whatsoever. It was hot. It was Dusty. It just didn't sound like something I wanted to do. I wasn't really into camping or anything like

24:05 That but I had been in a serious relationship that broke up and found myself with vacation time and nothing to do with it and was kind of at a Crossroads and had some friends who I knew we're going out there. And so I Shiba sheepishly said, well, should I go and somebody who I who I didn't know but would have been camping with said go and I'll tell you why later and so I decided to go kind of at the last minute. I think I decided in July and the event happens in August. So, you know at that point you can you can kind of do that fairly easily. And what happened was I went out there and all this sadness that I've been feeling around my my breakup. It had been bottling up just came out and you know, I have joked about how I was up at Burning Man, but I was crying woman because what I noticed was it that in my day-to-day life u p

25:05 Just didn't want to know they got uncomfortable. If you cried. They they they got uncomfortable seeing me in pain of any kind. And so when I got to Burning Man and I was in this extreme environment, I couldn't keep it under control. I couldn't couldn't keep it under wraps. And so all the sadness that I felt just came pouring out and the people that I was around weren't bothered by it. It was such an incredible gift to be with the community of people. Who were there were like, oh she's crying again here. Why don't you chop up some tomatoes for dinner? And you know, it was just it they were okay with my expression and I felt very grateful for that and it felt so refreshing to be able to just be and have a have your community kind of rally around you. So I determined to go back after that and really make a contribution the next year. So I sort of took over the camp that I was

26:04 Camps with and do we made up? We had a theme camp where we gave away something that I called love accessories which were kind of like jewelry that had condoms in them. So that people can be decorative and safe if they wanted to be sexually active. So I really came back and wanted to make a contribution to this place that had made a contribution to me. Yeah, I think back to let's see if the sum of the first Bri Windows 1999. And of course, I went there from here from Columbus, Ohio, so it's not easy trip now and certainly back then there was no easier and a much lesser-known kind of thing Burning Man was only really I think they only start selling tickets 1996 or so. It was still a fairly young event.

27:04 I could certainly felt like a pretty different thing like even from a few years after that even from 2002 and we met 1999 was sometime where it really felt like this year. You really are going to the middle of nowhere and you know, it's almost like you're wondering if anyone's going to be there when you get there, like maybe it was just all a big prank or something like that because it isn't really remote and you don't see much evidence of other people getting up to it and I can really understand why they would want to have an event. There are really feels like the end of the world like both and remoteness and an extremity and with the potential with the kind of like the idea of the the freedom to really do just about anything, you know, if you need if you know, this was back when they would

28:04 Have a shooting ranges of stuffed animals. And so you could do not today. I was into that but you know what, they have potential that you could just have something like that set up and you do things like guns or something. They get really shunned these days and four obviously some good reasons, especially at a potentially drunken Festival, but at the same time it also is something of a symbol of freedom and it's interesting to see like the difference of that time vs. You can just a few years later when more rules came into play and I'm sure they were necessary especially is the festival group but also that culture changed too and I can remember back then thinking about what it must have been like a few years earlier because people would lament even back then for the freedoms that we lost even on the first year that I went. And so

29:04 So I couldn't really understand until maybe a few years later when I start seeing more freedoms go away. Like okay, I get it. Now, I guess the larger the more people that you have coming together, the more that rules really have to be put in place but still think back to the first year that I wanted and Wunderlich man. What is it that you'd like. Me to drink Mio to travel thousands of miles go to this like awkward newbie Festival that's in the middle of the desert like you it's not like there were a lot of people that I knew that were going. I went with one friend. Who is he still goes more than I do even he really got hooked into it and I don't know but for whatever reason like it did get connected at Saint guy or sink into me.

30:01 What kept you going back you? What kept me going back. I'll talk to you this quickly. We need to get something else.

30:26 Actually, I die. Do I move on to something else though other that but I can relate it. So after we met at Burning Man and we made our long-distance relationship work and I think some go to San Francisco and we live together there for what 8 years 7 years something like that and then we moved here to Columbus, Ohio.

30:50 So you're now a California girl born and raised they are and living in Columbus, Ohio, and I wanted to eat for you to talk a little bit about that transition. I mean, it's been very tough for you. I know and I guess I know I want to hear like maybe some things like what do you think was really the hardest thing like looking back to us now that move was what eight years ago. Now you've had at least a little bit of time now to hopefully adjust what's been the hardest thing about that.

31:27 That's a good question about what the hardest thing. I mean being born and raised in on the west coast being in from California. I was familiar with both the Southern California lifestyle and the Northern California lifestyle but living near the ocean all my life and then coming to a landlocked state with a with a bigger change than I anticipated in the seasons. You know, I joke about how the seasons in California that we have them. They're just very subtle the change the Lord roke but you don't have them. Yeah. I know you think that that the California doesn't have any seasons. Did they do that's just very very subtle there. Where is here? Definitely this the change in the seasons is very significant.

32:15 Yeah, I bet sometimes joke about being allergic because there's it's so green here. But the grass is in the trees in the pollens are killing me what was important you out there because it's not like you swam or served or did really very much. I don't know if I ever even saw you text the ocean out there.

32:37 I grew up with being near the ocean. We did go camping at the ocean every year when I was a kid. So maybe that was when my Affinity for it developed was all the Summers that we spent camping on the ocean and definitely the the ocean in the Southern California area is much warmer than Northern California where you and I live together. It's pretty bitterly cold up in Northern California. That doesn't stop people from still surfing up there. So perhaps it's it was something that develops when I was a kid being really young and spending so much time there with my family camping that I always sort of retained and carried with me and just being able to see it was something that there or nearby

33:32 What's the what's the best thing about moving to Ohio?

33:38 I think the best thing is been that there's just a lot more space here, you know living in San Francisco. It's such a small City really in terms of geography and it was getting to feel like we were just people are really on top of each other. They're here. There's more room to sort of spread out and breathe and you know, you can have some you can have a big yard here. You can you can own a home relatively easy here. So just being able to have sort of more of your own space to to breathe and this is nice. I never felt more claustrophobic then when we lived in San Francisco, I just died always I mean I'm I'm taller than many people so already I feel a bit more like I'm taking up more space and I guess I am but that just means that like the the I remember like all the stores had the aisles that were so tightly packed and

34:38 That I can do I ever remember like going us going out to brunch one time. And I know I think I leaned up against like a a separate or whatever the restaurant and some kind of Catty gay guy was like you're invading my personal space and I'm sure he was right, but at the same time I wasn't really used to that you're claustrophobic kind of sense of space for living in San Francisco, and I'm really not I'm happy to not have to feel that again. Well by by its nature the geography the only way it can grow is up and that puts people on top of each other there much like New York City, although I've never lived in New York City, but I guess in some ways they're they're similar like that and in terms of you know, when you add more people to at the only place to add them is is on top of each.

35:38 And yeah that same sense like that sort of compression or that density or whatever makes her Blake such vibrant culture. There's something about that that breed section interesting place in people and ideas and so unlike that I know maybe that forced claustrophobia is a good thing in a sense. I don't know I definitely draws a lot of Art and expression thereof of different sorts. I don't know if it's from you know, the Nostalgia of the Haight-Ashbury sixties era or how it does get romanticized and so people want to be there and you get more variety but

36:27 You know, I miss my friends. I miss the people that I knew there more than anything else. You know, I think that's probably that's probably true for everybody's you know, the things that you miss the most are usually your your friends and your family more than than the place in and of itself.

36:49 Is there anything you'd do differently now moving from there or would you even move from there?

36:57 I think I still would have moved. I don't think I regret that at all. You know, here we own a home and we have a dog we couldn't do that there. We have a lot more space and a lot more freedom here things are calmer and we've got room to create and make things and that's really nice. So

37:23 I'm thinking back to us talking about burning man in hell that end of the world nests gave open space enough to do big things and try things and possibly fail or whatever in a way like moving away from a dense City like San Francisco of words one to open the SIM freedom to try new things.

37:46 Yeah, one thing I've learned about Columbus is that you can do anything you want here, but you've got to do it. You got to make it you're on your own, you know, there's not a built-in Community that's ready and wait if you want to do something you got to strike out on your own hearing and be kind of a Pioneer in that way to remember things about it was that it was empty or canvas anyway, but a canvas

38:19 I know we have just a few minutes left. I know what haven't you asked me that you would like to.

38:26 Etsy

38:31 I don't think I have any questions. We always get Nostalgia this time of year for Burning Man and when we met and

38:40 So it's Punta Cana look back over our our time our life together and look at what we've accomplished and

38:49 I guess what would you like to do? Have you got anything in the future that you'd like us to do that? We haven't done yet.

39:04 We've done a lot together I think back and wonder if you're we had such a great tour a few months after we met first met and while there was a great experience. I wonder if we really even be able to pull that off again. But traveling with you is always a good experience and I can I buy retold so many stories about those travels. It's hard not to think that we shouldn't be doing that again sometime in our future as well.

39:39 Well, that's about it. We're about out of time. So, all right. I love you, honey. I love you.