Melissa Julien, Cassie Riding, and Mari Bott

[00:02] CASSIE RIDING: All right, my name is Cassie Riding. I am 42 years old, and today is May 10th, 2025. I'm here in St. George, Utah, with one of my favorite friends and co-workers. Melissa, your turn.

[00:21] MELISSA JULIEN: Ah, well, my name is Melissa. Melissa Julien and I am 56. And today is May 10th of 2025. And we are here in St. George, Utah. We've got red rocks here. And my relationship with Cassie, we are very best friends and we work together. The two of us. It's great.

[00:48] CASSIE RIDING: Awesome. Okay, so, Melissa, I was just. thinking or we were just chatting about what were we chatting about when we first started? About what brought you joy as children. Oh yeah, we were talking about what brought us joy as children and what I love is how our conversation naturally led to like how much we have in common that we both love nature and we love being outside and I loved how you were describing your childhood in Paradise, Utah. and it made me smile as I thought about how crazy it is that we both grew up in Cache Valley, even though when you were graduating, what year did you say you graduated?

[01:27] MELISSA JULIEN: It was 1987.

[01:29] CASSIE RIDING: 1987. So I was five years old.

[01:32] MELISSA JULIEN: Yeah.

[01:32] CASSIE RIDING: And I was five years old when you were graduating, and who knew that years later the two of us would meet and become the dearest friends. I just love it. It shows like friendship knows no age, right? And And it's funny too because if we were to stand up in this room, it would show that how tall are you?

[01:51] MELISSA JULIEN: About 5'10.

[01:52] CASSIE RIDING: Yeah, and I'm like five feet. So we're kind of a hilarious duo because I look so short.

[01:56] MELISSA JULIEN: Yeah, there's a big difference there.

[01:58] CASSIE RIDING: And yet, and yet our souls are like, one. I feel like we just like get each other and understand each other, which is kind of special.

[02:07] MELISSA JULIEN: When I first met Cassie, you were very just friendly and you just had a brightness about you and you made everyone just feel so special. And when she works with children, the work that she does, it's just the perfect job for her. And while we're not working and when we just chat, just the two of us, there is this bond and I really appreciate her values and her family and my family and what's important to each of us are so much alike. So it's just like we said, nature. I'm shocked that you're from up north.

[02:43] CASSIE RIDING: I know.

[02:44] MELISSA JULIEN: How is that, right?

[02:45] CASSIE RIDING: I mean, how does it happen?

[02:46] MELISSA JULIEN: We're like neighbors who never knew each other.

[02:49] CASSIE RIDING: No, it's awesome. I appreciate how sweet you were sharing that about those kind words you said about me. I feel the same way about Melissa. It was funny when I first met Melissa. This was her name sign, and people have done M's for tall because Melissa's tall. But it kind of looked like Chomp, like we're all like, that is not an appropriate sign for Melissa. And so it was really beautiful when, who gave you your new name sign? A deaf mentor. Okay, so the deaf mentor group up north, they gave Melissa this sign. And it's just beautiful because it just.

[03:22] MELISSA JULIEN: Symbolizes, I mean, it just encapsulates so well.

[03:25] CASSIE RIDING: It's kind of like the vibration, that vibe. She gives out vibes of love, acceptance, friendliness, like she's always in a room. We said that at the same time. Every time you walk in a room, it's true. You just light everything up and people feel drawn to you, comfortable with you. It's a real gift that you have. I think it's the same way when you and I do home visits together. I love it when we, so Melissa and I work for USDB in the parent-infant program. We work in early intervention. And so I'm an educator for the deaf and Melissa is our deaf mentor. But what's really cool, my job as a parent advisor, is that we're going in and a lot of times we're meeting parents. I mean, we know that deaf children, most deaf children, what's the number now? They always say like 90% or 95% of deaf children are born to hearing parents. And often these hearing parents have never met a deaf person before. And so it's sometimes a little, they're nervous. They're unsure. They don't know what the future holds for their children. And it is so awesome when we go in there and we're like, Hey, We're here to help provide language and communication, and we just help them realize your kid's gonna do everything possible out there. They're gonna have this amazing journey in their life, and they're gonna do it all. They're just gonna communicate maybe in a different way. Some of our families, the kids have hearing aids, some have cochlear implants. A lot use ASL, but what I love is the second that we refer a deaf mentor, if they're interested in learning sign language, and they meet Melissa, it's like you just see this wave of relief. Come over their parents, these parents, because of you and because of how incredible you are. You're so educated, you're so intelligent, you're so fun. You use this language so beautifully and they suddenly feel like, oh, I've got, like, you're like a role model, I feel like, to them. And you just give them this peace of mind of, okay, we've got this. Like, my kid's gonna be just fine. What do you feel like when you first meet parents? Do you see that ever? Like, can you see the demeanor in their faces change? When they meet you?

[05:22] MELISSA JULIEN: Yes. Yes. First of all, thank you for your kudos and what you had to say about me. With working and collaborating with Cassie here, the parents' advisors as Cassie has that role, she gives the parents hope as well. And she's very detailed in what to do, all the things that need to happen. And so, It helps me to have safety or feel safe and have that confidence in Cassie and what she does. But once I enter the home and see the children, I am absolutely fascinated there because I'm an advocate there for that deaf child and deaf children. And that's really my goal is because when I go into that home, you know, I didn't have language in my own home. And until 1969, what early 1970s, that's when really ASL It was taboo prior to then. And so I really didn't have the opportunity to be able to learn sign language until I was 13. So can you imagine all those years I missed language? And then to be able to see the deaf children and how it automatically just had that bond with the parents and the child, and then they can see that the language comes first. But there's one time, one family that I'm thinking of, the parents, they didn't want to have a deaf mentor. Remember that, Cassie? Oh, yeah. And you and I were there. Anyways, you know, we did the introduction.

[06:48] CASSIE RIDING: We're trying to respect their opinions, but also being like this fear of language deprivation for the child. Right.

[06:56] MELISSA JULIEN: So anyway, we went in and, you know, as soon as we met with the child, they were all so fascinated with the signing and the parents, they saw what was happening between me and the child and they were like, oh, like what did they say? And the child was able to express back and I understood what the child was trying to say. The child and I were able to communicate just instantly. And then when the parents saw that, they realized them, they had a change of heart.

[07:23] CASSIE RIDING: It's actually so, I think that's one of my favorite parts of our job. My most favorite part of the job is working with you and working with these beautiful children and families. But my second most favorite is watching these parents go in the three years. We usually get them around, you know, sometime between age birth and age three, and I love watching them by the time this kid turns three, and here comes the hardest part of our job, is they turn three and we have to transition them out to preschool and we like cry because they're now our families and babies too. But I love that change in the parents, like what you just talked about. Like their first impression was like, no, like a lot of times they've had sadly misinformed individuals or professionals who've told them, oh, don't sign with your child or they'll never talk. And such a myth, such a falsehood. And sadly we do, we meet parents who are like, no, we don't want to sign and we know our kids will never talk. Right? But it's amazing that you know, we have a variety of children, like those with cochlear implants, those with hearing aids who are going on a listening spoken language path. It's amazing that when they sign with their child, their child actually, I mean, let's talk about the truth is like anatomically, they can sign before they can talk. And so they gain confidence. They gain confidence in communicating, just like what you were saying, that parent witnessed you communicating with their child, their child having like communicating back. And they thought, oh my gosh, my kid has so much to say. And how, I mean, how many times think about all of our kiddos without breaking confidential hand? I won't say any names, but if you and I looked at each other and we think about a number of those who once the child started signing and took off with confidence in a visual language, all of a sudden their auditory and spoken language followed suit and they are like far above age development for milestones for communication, right? Like, It's beautiful.

[09:05] MELISSA JULIEN: You're absolutely right. And it's because I would say, I mean, I get it. I understand the parents are hearing and they want their child to speak. I fully get it. There was one family where the baby was a newborn and they wanted the baby to talk and we said, that's okay, we understand. But, you know, we tried to make a promise with them and they said, okay, we'd like you to sign first as their first language and let's just see. Let's just see. I can't guarantee anything. But I'm pretty confident that their language will develop. So we made that agreement and we proceeded to go on and go on. And the children brought their personalities out. You could see their personalities.

[09:44] CASSIE RIDING: Oh, that's so true.

[09:44] MELISSA JULIEN: And it was beautiful. All of a sudden they saw this and the parents were like, I mean, they could see that the barriers were broke down. The barriers were all torn down. once they were able to learn sign, and then we were able to go into the home and they knew that, you know, I was deaf and our parents are hearing and the child is only like two and that they can do that switching. They know when to sign, they know when to speak.

[10:11] CASSIE RIDING: Well, and they probably see you do that.

[10:12] MELISSA JULIEN: They're really just brilliant.

[10:13] CASSIE RIDING: Yeah, like, and I think you're a great language model of that because they see you, they see you being able to talk and communicate and do so well, and then they see you signing. What I love, one thing that I love that you said about, I appreciate how you noticed the child, you said their personalities really came out. Like when they, you know, we have to, like, respect that. Like, sometimes if they don't have access to sound, they can't hear. And so it is hard to communicate what they want to say. But yet you said that once you got down and could communicate with them in a language that they could communicate, you said their personalities came out. And I was curious. I mean, I think, one, that's a gift you have that you just, they feel accepted and love the minute they meet you. But do you feel that way, Melissa? Do you ever feel like for you, you didn't learn sign language till 13. Do you feel like, It helped you, your personality come out or helped you feel more yourself? Or do you feel like you were always yourself even without sign language?

[11:05] MELISSA JULIEN: Yeah, I did not realize how much I missed just being honest with you. Let's see, we're talking about what, age four? The first time I was trying to talk with a hearing aid. I was so delayed with my language skills. But that didn't stop me.

[11:24] CASSIE RIDING: No, you're driven.

[11:25] MELISSA JULIEN: I worked so hard and I was mainstreamed in school. So I went to a school and I went to a hearing school where they were hearing children and some deaf children, which is what we call mainstreamed. And it was extremely different, but I wasn't shy. I was outgoing. I was assertive. If I didn't understand what somebody was trying to say, I would ask. I felt more responsible for my own education. I just, you know, if I missed something, I mean, I had to really work. I had to work hard to read lips. It was really a challenge and I had speech therapy. And then would you go outside and play for recess? You know, the girls would talk and like kind of mumble and I was like, ah, forget them. And so I would just go and play with the boys.

[12:14] CASSIE RIDING: That's why you were such a good athlete.

[12:16] MELISSA JULIEN: Yep, sports. That's exactly why. And now, I play basketball, volleyball, I play all kinds of sports. I played for college. Yes, yes, I've coached. And then actually coaching volleyball for high school. I did that for junior varsity for what, like three years?

[12:34] CASSIE RIDING: Yeah.

[12:34] MELISSA JULIEN: And, you know, I had them, I asked them if they would provide interpreter and it was fine and...

[12:39] CASSIE RIDING: But I just think you're such an amazing example to me of like perseverance because I sit there and look at you and I'm like, oh my gosh, you had to work so hard every day at school. Right? Like how many of us who are hearing just take for granted, like I sit in the classroom and I can hear the conversation happening behind me and the teacher turns her back to write on the board and I can still take notes 'cause I know what she's saying. And it kind of makes me frustrated that you grew up in an era where you didn't have guaranteed interpreters. You didn't have, you know, the American Disabilities Act was 1990. You said you graduated in '87. And so like I'm so happy that you have, you are guaranteed that right. Now, and you get interpreters and education today is such a different story, which is beautiful, but it makes me sad that you missed that growing up and that you had to work so much harder than most of us. But it probably has developed who you are today, right? Like maybe that experience is why you are so resilient and why you're such a good life coach. We didn't mention that, but you also on your resume besides teaching and coaching and being such an awesome photographer, you are a life coach. Do you feel like you mostly do life coaching for deaf and hard of hearing individuals or do you ever do hearing as well?

[13:47] MELISSA JULIEN: I just do deaf and hard of hearing individuals. That's always what I've done. You know, we do it virtually. We can do that. It's just something I do. I think that, you know, all through my childhood and the resolution has always, I've always been able to resolve things and find solutions for problems. If there are problems, I found a solution.

[14:07] CASSIE RIDING: I've noticed that in our work, you were like, we'll problem solve.

[14:12] MELISSA JULIEN: Exactly, we'll figure it out. You know, we just figure out how to make it work.

[14:17] CASSIE RIDING: Yeah, I like that. I like that about our friendship. Oh, go ahead, what were you going to say?

[14:23] MELISSA JULIEN: Well, I was just thinking about the families who sign and the families finally, you know, see how they take off and the child, you know, speaks well. and it's because they had their ASL language first. And it's kind of like when you have an apple and you're trying to say apple on your lips and showing them the apple and the sign, and they can make that connection with the language and, you know, what the word is.

[14:47] CASSIE RIDING: Oh, 100%. And I think that's like another common misconception is a lot of people assume, like, I mean, even if you look at neurological studies, like they used to think, oh, there's a part of brain, the part of the brain for, listening and talking, there's a part of the brain for vision. And then they found out actually right here in the hippocampus, there's a language center. So it's really cool to me that spoken language and sign language happen in the exact same part of the brain. And so like you said with these kids, give them a foundation. In birth to age three, that's when all these neuro receptors are just so active and they're developing. And it doesn't matter if the language is visual or auditory. Once you start to develop language and vocabulary, it's going to be easier, like you said, to then build that second language and to communicate. And that is why, I mean, we can be living witnesses of that. I mean, if we wanted to document and pull up all of our, our B tots records, but we could show, like, all of our kids that have the highest language scores. They are there.

[15:45] MELISSA JULIEN: They had both.

[15:45] CASSIE RIDING: They're signing and, and their signing took off. And now they, some of them only talk and don't sign as much now. But it doesn't matter. That foundation was so crucial for them. That reminds me of a foundation that I think has been crucial for you and I. And I think part of why we love our job so much is our commitment to motherhood and the joy we often talk about how much we love our children, even when we're like, how do we raise them at this stage? But I think that love and commitment to family and to motherhood is a big part of why we go in these homes and we connect so well with these families. And I've worked with other- I agree.

[16:24] MELISSA JULIEN: With you on that.

[16:25] CASSIE RIDING: Yeah, I've worked with other deaf mentors who are great individuals but had never been a parent yet and maybe didn't have children of their own. Doesn't mean that they weren't successful too, but there's something about being an experienced mother that when we go in there, not only do we love and connect with these kids like they're our own, but I feel like we are able to Reach the moms on a different level. We just have a, what do you think? Like that level of compassion, connective connectivity?

[16:52] MELISSA JULIEN: Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes. I feel like there's that relationship. Like, of course I have children. I get you, you get me, we get each other.

[17:05] CASSIE RIDING: And.

[17:07] MELISSA JULIEN: It just seems like we can be more open. But when we go in and we see the children, it's like it's my own son or daughter and like, what would I do? How would I do? And so, you know, I work hard with them and just my time is just everything. I put everything into it. 100%. 100%.

[17:26] CASSIE RIDING: I love that. And I love that they come to trust, right? Like after a while, they're not just asking us about our expertise in language and communication and development, but they're like, They really care, like help us, help us in how do we parent these hard behaviors and we get to troubleshoot with them and it's kind of fun to be on that level of trust with them. I want to ask you, Melissa, what do you feel like, what are some of, what's one of your favorite visits that we've ever had together? Do you have any memories or times that you've just loved? Or favorite lessons, topics to teach? Like what's your favorite topic to teach?

[18:01] MELISSA JULIEN: I would, well, let's see. I remember one home visit and we were trying to teach them how to eat. Do you remember that one?

[18:09] CASSIE RIDING: We have a little gal who's almost two and she has major food aversions. And so we actually, when mom was telling us how concerned, that's one cool thing about our job is we come in and we always talk about like, what are your priorities? What are your concerns? And then we help provide resources. And so when mom was saying, I just worry that she's not eating enough. Like she's so selective and she has food aversions. And so I was like, let's refer an OT. And so our occupational therapist came. And what I love about collaboration is that as occupational therapist came, she saw, she's like, gosh, this little one is really, really receptive with Melissa. What if you guys came and we did a joint visit together? And let's try to help her work through like experiencing food, like even before tasting and trying things like experiencing, like being willing to look at it, being willing to touch it or play with it or smell it. And then as we were doing it, we were giving her language with signs. 'Cause even though she's a hearing aid wearer, she's a new listener, and she's very visual and she communicates far more with sign language. So I loved, that was one of my favorite visits too. They brought over that stool, so she was right up at the counter with us. Mom even had like a child friendly knife. I'm like, go mom. And that was so fun, teaching signs for peeling and chopping the banana. And then you and I would model and were you the one that put peanut butter on your nose so she wouldn't be afraid of it? Or was that the OT? I think that might have been you. That was Lauren. Yes.

[19:31] MELISSA JULIEN: So the occupational therapist put peanut butter on her nose.

[19:35] CASSIE RIDING: We tasted it. We modeled. And then she did?

[19:31] MELISSA JULIEN: Yeah, exactly. We shared the banana.

[19:33] CASSIE RIDING: We shared, you know. She fed you or mom, and them feeders. But it was so exciting because at the end of that visit, I mean, she tried banana. She touched the, she actually did take a bite of peanut butter on the chocolate raisin, even though she was not having anything to do with it on the piece of bread. Like, she totally overcame some food aversion. And I really think you're right. That wouldn't have happened without you and your modeling of signing. It was powerful.

[19:57] MELISSA JULIEN: Right. And so the children learn sign by playing.

[20:01] CASSIE RIDING: Yeah.

[20:03] MELISSA JULIEN: You don't have to just sit down.

[20:05] CASSIE RIDING: And learn a new language. Sitting in a new flashcards does not affect that.

[20:07] MELISSA JULIEN: Yeah, that does, yeah, that does not work. So when we play and we bring in games and stories and books and, you know, just hands on, I, what do I call it? Like living room method is what I call it. that doesn't work.

[20:25] CASSIE RIDING: Yeah, play in the children's classroom.

[20:27] MELISSA JULIEN: Yes, it's all child-led and we kind of see what they want to do and you know we have one boy they said, oh you want to see the train? They come on over and you know look at the train and how it you know can topple over and all those kinds of things and become super animated and the parents come in and they're watching all this take place and like well how are you making that happen? How is this you know, and I try to tell them, this is part of my job.

[20:51] CASSIE RIDING: Such a good language model.

[20:54] MELISSA JULIEN: Dad, this is what it is. This is how it can be. It's not just we sit together, we play.

[20:58] CASSIE RIDING: I love how you model that for them because then they see it and they're like, oh, I can do that. I also loved how you said living room method because I was thinking about how you and I, we always talk about like, we know we've graduated when the parents, because when we first start coming, it's like the living room's spotless and that's where we stay. And then when you finally hit the day where they're like, oh, he's playing trains in the bedroom. Come on, let's go. And we're like, we graduated past the living room. And we go into their bedroom. into the kitchen. And it's like such an exciting milestone for us to go and be a part of them. I also loved how you said books because when I was thinking that, like when I asked you, what's your favorite topic to teach? I have two favorite topics. It's like a toss-up between reading, reading aloud primarily, the power of that. I mean, I'm a firm believer that children are made readers in the laps of their parents. I don't care if that's spokeN language, auditory, or if it's sign language. Those kids become readers. They become amazing at language when they are in the laps of their parents and they're being read to. And so I love reading. And I'm so glad you shared that because you've been such a good example to me of, like, showing them you can, you know, reading can look different. It's not just sitting down and going through every word on the page with a kid. Like, sometimes it's just book sharing. We just talk about the pictures that we're looking at. Sometimes we are literally building a stack of like a block tower with books, just so the kids enjoying the books. Like book sharing is powerful. My other favorite topic that we teach is music, specifically music and movement, just because the power to activate the whole brain and to cross the midline and use both hemispheres. But Melissa, what are your thoughts? Because some people ask this a lot. They're like, well, do deaf people even enjoy music? Like, do they even like it? And so what are your thoughts? Especially in our PIP groups? We have like a parent-child class where we come and we do a little pip group and part of it is music time. I love music time because I love to pull out the guitar. I love to make the kids shake and move and all that backdoor learning that happens when they don't even realize it they're getting vocabulary. But I always wondered what's your thoughts on that? Do you find as much joy in music time?

[23:05] MELISSA JULIEN: Oh, yeah. Music is so good. And I think because of the movement and it's repetitive.

[23:11] CASSIE RIDING: Yeah.

[23:12] MELISSA JULIEN: And then, to give you an example, like we're doing five little monkeys jumping on the bed, one fell off and broke his head, you know, things like that. Mom called the doctor, you know, it's just repetitive over and over, the facial expressions, the movements, all that. And then instantly, yeah, the kids are.

[23:36] CASSIE RIDING: Just, you're right, 'cause there's such visual learners.

[23:39] MELISSA JULIEN: They're in there and, yes, and they feel it too. I mean, it can be loud, right? We can show them how they can touch their body and they can feel vibration or they can touch any piece of furniture.

[23:50] CASSIE RIDING: Yes, yes.

[23:51] MELISSA JULIEN: And even some like to get up.

[23:52] CASSIE RIDING: And try and dance.

[23:53] MELISSA JULIEN: Yeah, profoundly deaf. She likes to dance and she feels something.

[23:58] CASSIE RIDING: I love that about one thing I love about how, again, like I love having a deaf mentor. I think it's such a critical role for any deaf and hard of hearing child, regardless of what language modality they're using. Having a deaf role model who can not only answer the questions about what's it like being deaf? What was your childhood like? How do you, what did you do in school? Like all those questions. I love the real life model you are like in music time. Like when I'm playing the guitar and you can't hear it, you come and put your hand on there, or you take our sweet little profoundly deaf child who has no cochlea. So, you know, hearing technology won't work, but you bring her over and she touches the guitar while I play and she feels the vibrations. or when we're doing the everyone can shake, shake, shake with our egg shakers, she's feeling that rhythm. And I love when you- I love when you put your hand under hers and you do hand under hand or hand over hand and you shake with her so she can feel that rhythm and beat. Because really rhythm is so important for all children. And it's part of what's one of the successful indicators for literacy, right? Like you've gotta learn rhythm and rhyme. How do you do rhyme in ASL? 'Cause I think that's fascinating. You know, we rhyme with the sounds at the ends of words in English, spoken English, but how do you rhyme in ASL?

[25:13] MELISSA JULIEN: The brown bear, brown bear, what do you see?

[25:17] CASSIE RIDING: Yeah, it's like you do it.

[25:19] MELISSA JULIEN: Yes, it's all visual. It's how I do my body movement.

[25:22] CASSIE RIDING: It's a body movement for rhythm.

[25:24] MELISSA JULIEN: And I see a red bird. You know, it's just positioning and how you're shifting and your facial expression over and over again. Yeah, the repetition.

[25:33] CASSIE RIDING: It's powerful. I like that. Do you have, okay, not even related to our work or anything, do you have a favorite song? Like you told me once you like to listen to music sometimes when you work out. Is it for the beat? Like, so what's your favorite music? Like are we talking AC/DC, like heavy metal? Or are you like digging Beethoven?

[25:51] MELISSA JULIEN: No, no, no. So I like working out and I like feeling the beat to techno music. Oh, yes, techno music where you can really feel like the bam, boom, boom, boom, you know, and the beat.

[26:06] CASSIE RIDING: I love it.

[26:08] MELISSA JULIEN: And to relax. I can remember, I can't, I may not understand the words.

[26:17] CASSIE RIDING: The words and lyrics are gone. Right.

[26:20] MELISSA JULIEN: But when I read the lyrics, and then I can feel the music, I make that connection, and I really do enjoy that.

[26:28] CASSIE RIDING: I like that.

[26:28] MELISSA JULIEN: You know, it makes more meaningful, if you will.

[26:32] CASSIE RIDING: I remember when we were driving back from one of our recent We drive up to Salt Lake City, which is about four hours away, a couple times a year for our workshops. And I remember one of our co-workers was playing one of her favorite songs, and you were totally dancing in the front seat. And I'm like, How much of this are you hearing? Because you were on beat. You had the rhythm. So it was fun. It was fun to share that because I love music's a huge part of my life. I feel like it can communicate a lot of things we can't. So I love that you also find joy in music.

[27:02] MELISSA JULIEN: Yep. I love it. I do.

[27:05] CASSIE RIDING: Awesome. Can you guys talk about your memories together since you answered so many memories?

[27:14] MELISSA JULIEN: Yes.

[27:16] CASSIE RIDING: Memories.

[27:17] MELISSA JULIEN: Yeah.

[27:17] CASSIE RIDING: That's a great idea. You want to start or you want me to?

[27:25] MELISSA JULIEN: Well, memories with you. You know, Cassie's taught me a lot. She's very, a very, very positive person.

[27:38] CASSIE RIDING: Thank you, Melissa.

[27:40] MELISSA JULIEN: When the situation is difficult or what have you, all of a sudden she has a way of changing the mindset and it's like, okay. And I'm like, yeah, I'm like, wow, okay, she's got this. And, and so working with you, I feel like it's Safe? She knows what to say. She knows exactly what to say.

[27:57] CASSIE RIDING: You're so nice.

[27:58] MELISSA JULIEN: And she has a lot of compassion. And you know the parents can be grieving and devastated, and she just always knows what to say.

[28:05] CASSIE RIDING: You know what?

[28:07] MELISSA JULIEN: I might feel like, I don't know what to say, but then Cassie, she takes right over. She jumps right in.

[28:13] CASSIE RIDING: You're so sweet. You're so kind. That reminded me of one of my favorite memories of us. oh, I might get emotional. You know what I'm talking about. One of our sweet little babies, he had charge syndrome, and there's such a spectrum. So we've had other kids with charge syndrome, and with charge syndrome, one of the indicators that is the A for auditory is often they have hearing loss. And so we've had kids who have just beautifully developed. some use sign language. Gosh, I don't think we've had any that have been able to talk, but like, verbally, because I don't think they've often had the auditors. But we had a really special one that we loved. And sadly, with his other complications connected with charge syndrome, he passed away while we were servicing him. But one of my favorite memories when you were talking, I'm like, here I'm crying and you're talking about positivity. But I remember we had a a home visit when it was, gosh, what? Like an IFSP review. And so they're reviewing the goals and they're doing assessments. And it's hard. Sometimes it's really hard to talk about progress when, when really, let's be honest, mom's worried about keeping a baby alive. And so I think the two of us were a little annoyed with the service coordinator. We were like, would you just stop with this stuff? But we were able to see that mom was struggling. And you and I went over and together kind of gave a group hug to mom. And that was one of my favorite moments because nothing had to be said, right? There were no appropriate words, but we just held them. And I think that relationship stayed true because when we lost our little guy, maybe six months later, it was just so beautiful that they asked you and I to be a part of the funeral and I have never felt so much humility and love that a family would trust us and turn to us in their time of sorrow. Sharing that sad part, that funeral is one of the hardest things we've ever been to together. But likewise, we had some fun, awesome memories in that house. That was a house, this family, man, they party like the Islanders party, and they knew how to make home visits fun. And I loved when, I think one of my favorite visits was when you gave all their kids their name signs. They'd been learning sign language. The kids were signing with their little brother, and they were so cute. Some people don't know, but a name sign in the deaf culture is a huge deal, right? Like, I can't just make up a name sign because I am not deaf or hard of hearing. So even though I might have some cool ideas, it's not legit. I don't do it. I can't. But it's a super big honor when a deaf or hard of hearing individual gives you a name sign. And Melissa actually gave me mine. My first name sign was Cassie, because I, my undergrad, I am, I studied sign language interpreting. at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque, and I worked as a secretary in their office while I was in the program. And so the secretary before me was Wendy, and before her was Kristi. So they just gave me Cassie, like same name sign. And so it was like, yeah, I have a name sign, but not meaningful. And so it was really fun when Melissa and I became friends, and she was like, wait, that's why you got your name sign? She was like, uh-. So Melissa thought about it, and when she gave me Cassie right here, feeling it on the heart, Oh, it meant so much to me because it was personal and it was meaningful. And I noticed that that family, that like the joy and acceptance I had, I was like, Hey everyone, I have a new name sign. Like I had to tell everyone. But they were the same. They were so excited to get name signs. It made all the brothers and sisters like feel a part of this language, kind of have like a special bond with their baby because this is theirs and it's special and only they have it and they would tell their friends at school about it. But that was one of my favorite home visits was watching you give all of them their name signs. and I thought that was really beautiful.

[32:00] MELISSA JULIEN: Yeah.

[32:01] CASSIE RIDING: Yeah. Oh, yes.

[32:03] MELISSA JULIEN: The baby.

[32:04] CASSIE RIDING: I know. I'm trying not to say names.

[32:09] MELISSA JULIEN: Anyways, you could see it in their eyes.

[32:15] CASSIE RIDING: Yeah, he never could talk.

[32:16] MELISSA JULIEN: You could see it in their eyes. Like, a big smile came over their face, and he understood. He understood. Absolutely, without a doubt. Without a doubt. So when you, I think that you give them all the name signs, I was like, hey, you know, I gave name signs. I'm like, I'm, you know, telling them things like where in the story and.

[32:37] CASSIE RIDING: They look over and they look around. He was able to start developing like a social emotional bond with his family. Yes. Because he, like you said, you would sign the name sign and he would look to the right sibling. And that was super rewarding too, because you're right, sometimes when a child can't talk. We don't know all that they are able to understand and communicate, but that was pretty rewarding to be like, oh my gosh, he is understanding us. Or to see how exciting sometimes we use tactile touch. I love that too. That's some of my favorite memories. Some of the families where we've had children with vision and hearing loss, our little deaf blind kiddos, sometimes we use a lot of tactile touch cues or tactile signing, and that's really special too. It's a lot more intimate and it's really rewarding when Mom would come and and sign something like, Bath on the baby. And all of a sudden his face would light up and he'd kick his leg because he loved water and he loved to be in it, whether it.

[33:25] MELISSA JULIEN: Was the pool or the bathtub.

[33:27] CASSIE RIDING: Yes, he loved it. He's so excited. Yeah. That was probably one of my favorite memories too. Okay, but be honest, when it comes to giving sign names, because those of us who are hearing are like, Yes, we've arrived, we've been accepted. Is it stressful for you? Because you have to like, everyone's like, so Melissa, I need a sign name.

[33:47] MELISSA JULIEN: You know, or when we go to these family visits, you have to be creative. Is that ever hard? Yes, very creative. You really have to take a good look at the personalities, at the behaviors, and their facial expressions and make that connection with that name sign that you decide to give. Yeah.

[34:03] CASSIE RIDING: You're very thoughtful about yours and getting to know them and I appreciate that. It's been fun.

[34:08] MELISSA JULIEN: Yeah, it's really fun. And sometimes it's hard for me to remember like all of them. Like, you know, we've got 30 plus children.

[34:16] CASSIE RIDING: Did you notice I started recording? I'm like, okay, Hey, Melissa, we're gonna record you guys doing the new signing so you can share it with Dad and Grandma and Grandpa. And what I don't tell them inside is, and so I can keep straight which new name signs are given, 'cause.

[34:31] MELISSA JULIEN: I won't forget by the next time we come and we have 30 kids to visit.

[34:35] CASSIE RIDING: Yes, yes, that was, thank you. That was really smart. It took me, I learned that one after I had to be like, oh, what was your kid's sign name? And when one mom's like, oh, I can't remember, I hoped you would. I was like, oh, great, come rescue us.

[34:50] MELISSA JULIEN: I know. We get smarter.

[34:51] CASSIE RIDING: I know.

[34:52] MELISSA JULIEN: We learned a lot of tricks along the way, don't we? Yep, that's right. We're such a good team.

[34:55] CASSIE RIDING: Which is why my heart is breaking. How can you leave me? How can you retire and move to Oklahoma? What does Oklahoma have that I don't? Or St. George? Oh wait, maybe I shouldn't ask that when we're in a hot trailer on a 93 degree day in St. George, Utah. You have a breeze, but you don't have our mountains and red rocks. or me. So I guess rather than like crying about what you're gonna, maybe I should ask you like, what are you gonna miss the most about St. George when you leave here? And what are you gonna look forward to the most about your new adventure and your exciting stage of retirement?

[35:32] MELISSA JULIEN: St. George has been so good to me. I've lived in Nevada. I've lived in Bunker Hill.

[35:41] CASSIE RIDING: Bunker Hill, Nevada. Yeah.

[35:44] MELISSA JULIEN: For like 15 years, you know, raised my kids there and COVID hit and then we made the move here to St. George and it's so beautiful. The red rocks, all the people, my job. I absolutely love my boss. It's been, we have a wonderful boss who works so well with us.

[36:05] CASSIE RIDING: We're like a pit family. Like, people don't have jobs like this. Like, I don't know how we got so lucky, but we are. We're just a part of a big family, and it's so exciting. And I think you hit it right. You were explaining St. George, and I kind of felt like, I get you. Like, I was gonna go like this.

[36:20] MELISSA JULIEN: Because we are like, we get each other.

[36:22] CASSIE RIDING: Yes. You nailed it. But I feel like St. George is like the golden heart of Utah or of the desert. It is the golden place. because it's just there's so much love and kindness. Like, I probably shouldn't brag about how amazing our community is because it's already getting busy. I'm more populated than when I first moved here. But it's such a beautiful hidden secret because you're here in this desert and you're just surrounded by love, warmth, sunshine, and goodness. Like, it's hard to not be happy when you live in the desert, huh? In St. George of all.

[36:57] MELISSA JULIEN: I shouldn't say the desert, but our desert. I mean, there's hiking, there's biking. I mean, you and I, we've done that, right?

[37:03] CASSIE RIDING: Oh my gosh, probably my favorite part, like PLC, professional learning communities, we have to like monthly have our PLC meetings and we are smart because we're like, well, yeah, let's go talk about what we can do better in our jobs. Let's go talk about everything and let's do it while we play pickleball or while we go hike Owens loop. And it's the best kind of work meetings to have. Yep, it is the best. Yeah, we're pretty, we are pretty remarkably blessed to be here. So I will. Yeah, you're gonna miss all that, right?

[37:33] MELISSA JULIEN: Yes. I will definitely miss my families that I work with, my co-workers I've already, you know, kind of become real skilled, you know, thinking about, oh, my gosh, I'm moving here in two weeks trying to hide. Yeah, it's setting in. It's really hitting me. I'm leaving. And...

[37:55] CASSIE RIDING: It's probably not gonna hit you till you're there, till you're gone. Yeah.

[38:00] MELISSA JULIEN: I think it's gonna hit me real hard. But thankfully, oh my gosh, thank you. We have social media.

[38:06] CASSIE RIDING: Can you imagine?

[38:07] MELISSA JULIEN: You know, we can still see the children as they grow up, what they're doing, you know, we can reach out to the parents, and that's the most rewarding job ever, ever. I will miss them.

[38:17] CASSIE RIDING: And you can remember that I have a basement with a guest room, so anytime you miss it too much, you can come back and stay.

[38:24] MELISSA JULIEN: That'S right. Yep. I can use you as my furniture.

[38:29] CASSIE RIDING: Yeah, because I'm inheriting some of your front room furniture. So you'll come in my house and feel like you're just at home. Yeah, I should have just hired you to like design my whole home. You are such a good, we didn't even talk about that with your list of many talents. You're an incredible home designer. You are. You have more skills in your life than I even dream of having. in mine someday. I look up to you.

[38:54] MELISSA JULIEN: Oh, it's just about motivation, you know, just trying, just going and doing it.

[38:59] CASSIE RIDING: Yep. Yep. Can I ask you one last question? Oh, of course you can. Yes. You guys talked about role models. Who were your role models growing up? Or if you had any.

[39:13] MELISSA JULIEN: Oh, no.

[39:14] CASSIE RIDING: If you had any. oh, we definitely do. You want to go first? You want me to go first? I was like, maybe if Melissa goes first, I'll have a minute to think. I have so many. I'm, like, trying to narrow it down because I think in life, which is kind of the beauty of life, is, like, you have so many different facets, right? Like, when I think about role models in my life, I can look at different facets and find different people. When I think about, like, family role models, I have a little sister named Chelsea. and she and I, we, I grew up in a big family. I'm the fourth out of eight and Chelsea's number five and the two of us, we grew up thick as thieves and we look a lot alike and so it's really fun because the nieces and nephews are always like, Is that Cassie or is that Chelsea? And their parents are like, Just pick one name and stick with it because they get stressed out, right? I can open her iPhone from one angle because we look so much alike and it's been fun because when her children were young, especially her youngest, daughter Quinley, she wouldn't want to go to anybody else when she was like in that attachment phase, but she would come to me because I looked just like her mom. And so I was like, yes, and I'd whisper in her ear, Aunt Cassie is my favorite. And I'd brainwash all my nieces and nephews that way. But I loved her so much, and Melissa knows this, but Quinley was diagnosed around age three with D-I-P-G. It's a a cancerous tumor in the brain stem. It's in the pond, so it's the one area that you can't operate on. And so most children with the IPD have about nine months to a year to live. We were incredibly blessed, and we got our little cub bugger for almost three more. She had her golden birthday. She turned six on ######## ###, and three weeks later she passed away. and it's one of the hardest things. I mean, you talk about positivity, and I'm like, I've had a really blessed life, and I have so much to be grateful for. And I, you know, people often will tell me, gosh, why are you so happy? And I just think, why can I. How could I not be right? My life. I'm just surrounded by so much goodness, and I just feel like I'm forever living in this Wheel of Gratitude because of all I have. But probably the lowest I ever felt was when we lost our quinley. primarily because I watched my sister suffer and I could do nothing to take it away. She was such a role model to me because she took her pain and she created something beautiful out of it. Her daughter, Quinley, was just a vibrant light. She was our sunshine girl. She loved butterflies and rainbows and all things light. And Quinley loved flowers and gardens, and they had. They had had a little. they'd taken a caterpillar and they'd put it in a little butterfly. You know, you can watch the caterpillar develop into a butterfly. And they had it, one of those, and it had, it snuck out of the, what do you call it, the little cage, and it had created its cocoon on a little branch right outside their kitchen window. So they had set up their camera on a time lapse, and they watched, and they left it there, and they were able to watch and see this butterfly break free from the cocoon. It was, it was beautiful. And so there's all this. symbolism of flowers and life. And actually what's really beautiful now is that they just were able to put in her monument at her graveside. And a brother-in-law of mine that does a lot of cool 3D work, he was able to take the visual pictures of the butterfly and that caterpillar and the chrysalis and created 3D images that they then power coated and welded and put on the back arch of the seat of her monument. and it is so stunning and touching. But what's been beautiful is that, that growth, growing through pain. My sister Chelsea, she took this pain and she realized that there's other people around who are struggling. And so up in Cache Valley, up in River Heights, right next to the Providence Cemetery, there's this land that was just there that was unused and they were developing it for a park in the community. And she worked her tail off. She created designs. She reached out to countless people. She went to city council meetings and they approved to create it into a memorial garden. And it has become, and it's so much work. I have just watched her take this pain and just put hours and love and heart into this project because she knows there's others. And so they've created this Quinlan's Memorial Garden up there and there's now a walkway and people came and planted trees. People could donate money. to Quinley's Memorial Garden and they could plant trees in honor of loved ones that they've lost. So you walk this path and on both sides you have these trees of a loved one's grandmother, another infant that was lost, someone's child or best friend or sibling and you walk through and there's name plaques on there. They're working on creating a butterfly garden. There's just amazing people in the community who donated all these plants for the butterfly garden. Children at the elementary school from Quinley's first grade class they all painted rocks and they're putting them in the shapes of a butterfly and you can come and walk through it. They're still, you know, they're hoping to earn enough to make a gazebo and they have slats and memories or stones on the path that you can put ones of loved ones. But what I just thought was so beautiful is that she took this unimaginable pain, a suffering that, you know, no parent should ever outlive their child. And she took this pain and she's using it to plant and to grow and to make something beautiful. And I just, to me, that's a role model to, to be able to take the hardest and rise above it and connect with and have compassion or, you know, sympathize with people who might be suffering just like you and reach them on a level that none of us can unless we've gone through it ourselves is just. inspiring to me.

[45:02] MELISSA JULIEN: Well, my mother passed.

[45:04] CASSIE RIDING: Yeah.

[45:04] MELISSA JULIEN: And now's the time.

[45:06] CASSIE RIDING: Days, just days apart from Quinley. So we both suffered together.

[45:09] MELISSA JULIEN: Yes, yes we did. And my role model for me, I would say, are my parents. And the reason being is let's start with my dad. I can remember he had told Me, he says, you,'re deaf. It doesn't matter. You can do anything you want, except you just can't hear. I'm not going to treat you different. Now go get out there and you work and you play and you go and you do it. And I remember one time I went in and we were playing basketball and I think it was for seventh grade or something and, you know, I'd been working and I'd been playing and I didn't make it. And so I came home and I told my dad, I didn't make the team. And my dad just looked at me and he's like, okay. Next year, you try again and you do it. And the two of us, we're gonna practice every single day. And so come summertime, we played every single day. You know, we'd come home from work and eat. We'd go out and we'd play outside. And, you know, he was teaching me what to do. And then the following year, I was able to try out for basketball, and I made it. And from there, I just took off. And, you know, I played college ball and.

[46:19] CASSIE RIDING: So inspirational.

[46:20] MELISSA JULIEN: Why? Because of my dad. He believed in me. He's like, you're deaf? That, what does that mean? I don't care, you know? It doesn't matter. So he said, I'm not gonna treat you different. And then there's my mother. Wow. You know, when she found out I was deaf at the age of two, I. She was a school teacher, and then my babysitter had noticed, you know, like something was quite off, you know, like she would.

[46:44] CASSIE RIDING: Oh yeah, you were watching the television. And she's like, oh, I remember the story. You were watching the television and she noticed that you were like putting your head right up to it and you were turning the knob louder and louder and louder.

[46:57] MELISSA JULIEN: And she's like, oh my gosh, I.

[46:59] CASSIE RIDING: Don'T think this little girl can hear. Yep, yep.

[47:02] MELISSA JULIEN: And so my baby parents didn't even know you were hearing loss until age 3. My parents had no idea. No idea. None. And then anyways, my mom quit her job. And she was a school teacher and she put all her attention on me. You know, okay, what do I got to do with this and, you know, to help her with school and getting hearing aids and, you know, she just was so involved and, you know, she really wanted to be involved in my life in school at home, you know, she would help me write, you know, writing English was really hard for me. So she would sit there and practice with me and she taught me every single night we would sit down. What love and in the kitchen and devotion.

[47:35] CASSIE RIDING: What a selfless woman to see this is my priority. I'm very much a sacrifice.

[47:39] MELISSA JULIEN: My mom is absolutely my role model.

[47:41] CASSIE RIDING: Role model for me. That's so beautiful. And what I think is beautiful is if your mom was here, she would probably say, Melissa's a role model for me because you not only were an inspiration to her, but you took care of her. You built an entire gorgeous Casita right next to your home so she could move in with you in her last few years. I mean, I just think it's amazing the love you took care of your mom. I think she'd be. If she was here, she'd probably be saying, wait, I'm your role model. You're mine, you know? Isn't it kind of cool how in life oftentimes we look at and we feel like, gosh, I look up to that person so much. I want to be so much like them. And then later we might find out that maybe they had similar feelings towards us, right? And we don't realize that. It's a good reminder to just make sure we're always thinking of, speaking of the best in people because you never know where you're going to leave an impact. Signing the best. I should have said signing the best about people because I know you've impacted my life for good and I will forever be grateful to you for that.

[48:47] MELISSA JULIEN: I feel exactly the same. You know, it doesn't matter what it is, you with whatever you're faced with, you face it with positivity.

[48:58] CASSIE RIDING: See, that's why I hang out with you. You always make me feel better about myself. Keep it coming. No, I'm just kidding.

[49:06] MELISSA JULIEN: Right.

[49:08] CASSIE RIDING: I think so. We just gotta turn that AC back on because it is hot in this trailer. Just kidding. Oh yeah.