Meredith Dank and Amy Farrell

00:00 Dank, today's date is Tuesday, May 11th, 2021. I am located in Brooklyn, New York. The name of my recording partner is Doctor, Amy Farrell and she is my research partner friend and confidant.

00:15 Hi, my name is Amy Farrell. I'm 48 days, date is Tuesday, May 11th, 2021. The name of my recording partner is Meredith dank, and she is my friend researcher and colleague.

00:31 Great. I'm going to go kick Ryan and Amy always a pleasure to speak to you. Now. It's being recorded times. But how and why did you first get involved in the trafficking field?

00:48 So I had to been a researcher for a few years looking at a lot of different questions related to disparities in the treatment of people in the criminal justice system, race, and gender and equality. I taught courses on Crime & Justice specific to race and gender equality. And I done quite a bit of research. Looking at Pacific Lee. It questions around while why I hate crime laws were not being enforced. Help local law, enforcement struggled to identify hate crimes and she had been following the passage of the, the federal trafficking victims protection act had been thinking a lot about questions about trafficking really since the late 1990s and when the national chief justice, put out an RFP in 2005-2006 right around there they were specifically looking for research.

01:48 To address questions about why law enforcement struggled to identify and find and respond to human trafficking which is very similar to the research that I had done in many ways about hate crimes so myself. And my colleague Jack McDevitt here at Northeastern University decided to apply for that Grant with some other colleagues elsewhere and we're really fortunate to receive that. Grant. It was my first real for real into doing a really mm foot perspective. Look at how a sample of wheat, we surveyed up about 3,500 state county and Municipal law enforcement agencies about their understanding of human trafficking trafficking, trafficking trafficking of foreign Nationals. Minors. And adults. What did they think about when they thought about trafficking problems? Do they have laws in their states?

02:48 Training. Do they have resources and capacity to identify trafficking and respond to those cases at and then we looked a little bit more deeply at the cases that they had started to identify and it was a really revealing study in many ways. We we learned about the surf lack of capacity, amongst the local law enforcement to respond to trafficking. We, we learned a lot about how they prioritize the problem locally and it just opened up a whole new world of question that from there, you know, if you and I I think we're lucky enough to start working on. I think the second project ourselves together that we we undertook in part because you, in my opinion, researchers that are doing this work, look for other people that are colleagues and and we certainly did with you. All of you doing good work in the space and trying to figure out how we can leverage our our skill sets and capacities to answer more complicated question. So it was just like every project has been paid pulling back the layers of an onion to reveal more question.

03:48 About, you know, if we do first while the system fails to respond so I could lay. What are these cases? You know, thirdly, what are specific kinds of cases that they really never find me. How do we create more effective responses and on and on so each project has led to two two more interesting questions. What about you Meredith? How did it, how did you get started in traffic in space? And I am excited to kind of talk more about those questions that keep coming up and if they're ever answered you, how I got involved.

04:26 Honestly, it's not that exciting of a story. I wish it were, but I was a doctoral student at John Jay and I was on the verge of dropping out of the program because I couldn't really find a issue that I was passionate, passionate enough about to spend, you know, a very hard. Your to work at a dissertation focus on sale around the same time. You got your first round of funding. Some folks, some professors at John Jay received a Nash hosted about this grant as well that focused on the commercial sexual exploitation of children, who was the first study funded by the federal government. And it was focused on that New York city. So I was in my curiosity with him immediately because I knew I wanted to do something around victimization.

05:25 And the idea of being able to do primary data collection, was really exciting to me, and I kind of just like was diving into the deep end from there, and it was a really exciting project. It's the findings were both the loved and hated across the country, but I think it was really Illuminating and not, you know, we came in to that thinking, we had some preconceived notions as far as what the csec population consisted of who who was primarily a victim of SeaTac. And what we got out of that project was it's a lot more, complicated, and nuanced and not black and white at all. We were told it was going to be primarily pimped girls and that we would only be able to get access to a handful of them. And we ended up doing over 300 interviews with young people, across the city, which included

06:25 Lots of boys trying to use that really painted a much more complicated picture of what the commercial sexual exploitation of children. Look like, we were kind of, I'd like to say the first that brought boys into the conversation and I know we'll talk a little bit about this later. I'm sure is that it's only been recently you since I think, boys is become something that's more commonly talked about when we talk about sex trafficking in particular or Seaside. So yeah, I kind of. That was my first Delvin taste into this and similar to, you haven't looked back and been able to build a career, really exciting career around it. And yeah.

07:14 That's that was my first foray into the sort of hinted at there. Being some essential questions that have really motivated us over the years. So I guess I'll ask what kind of questions about human trafficking or the responses to human trafficking have been interesting to you over the year-end and why isn't why I love the idea of continuing try to complicate what trafficking looks like? Because I think that it's easy to put it in very black-and-white terms. Not only sex trafficking but two degree labor trafficking and I think you know what I had said, it's way more complicated than that and I think if we're going to come up with some effective responses to the prevention and intervention in combating human trafficking in general, we really kind of need to understand the nuances of

08:14 How people get pulled into it? Why people get pulled into it? What it would take as far as if they're looking for other options and alternatives are getting out of that situation. What what what is needed? And I think that our research has my opinion done a good job of kind of asking the important questions relating, you know, some of the recommendations that, you know, policymakers service providers law enforcement prosecutors should be considering when they are developing programs and these interventions and laws and policies. And I feel that on some level, some of our recommendations have been taken the heart and implemented on some degree, but I think, you know, just like any issue. There's a lot more work that needs to be.

09:14 And I think that issue of trafficking is ever evolving. So, you know, even when we think we've done a good job of at least understanding one part of the issue, I think what we learn is that we probably need to do a lot more work. That's my research will continue forever continue to be done. Thank you. I mean, I really like that idea. The notion of complicating, write this question of drug trafficking and I'd say that I almost have like stuff to too kind of really primary to someone. Is this, how do, how do we, how do we think about what trafficking is like, how how do we create shared understanding says a culture about what trafficking is and why it is important to both understand and to prevent sand to stop and eat that whole notion of framing problems and thinking about what why does some

10:14 All of a sudden take off as a problem. And how do people strategically use the framing of problems that they know with her tug on the heartstrings and and motivate people to be interested in something. And what are the consequences of their choices in France with trafficking. I think it's a very clear example, right? We've we've utilized some motivational framing techniques about identifying. Iconic victims are certain kinds of victims and then we've been stuck with that, the right? Which is means we've had this uncomplicated picture of trafficking victims. And so I think it's the responsibility of researchers to the continue to complicate that picture. Because that that picture is so much, you know, created by Framing, which is a political exercise, in many ways to get people to buy into an issue, to support it to vote for legislation. And and for me in the criminal justice collar part of that framing is the framing of trafficking as a crime, right? That that I think is important to complicate, right? Which is that we had this idea that there are innocent victims in this area offenders and so, would

11:14 Will don't fit into the model that we're looking for of whatever those terms means do to, for all kinds of reasons, about the diversity of the victims and offenders in this situation of intent with in traffic, in that that we as a society dismiss it. And write that the justice system actors in. Or not space aliens. They don't come from other place. They're just members of our society. And most of the time their understanding of trafficking is largely informed by the same thing that, you know, it motivates, you know, our family members to understand trafficking, which is TV, show the news and media. And you know what they've heard about traffic and so, one of this, the really important questions for me, has been to understand why it is that the criminal justice system and other system surrounding the justice system have not been effective at as effective. As we would hope it at combating trafficking stopping trafficking, or identifying trafficking solving the problem of trafficking. And I remember very early on in my career, when I was

12:14 Very young perceived as very young. I think as a woman in the field, oftentimes your perceived as young even when you're not at this conference with people who work much senior to me about in my 2006 about asking, what was the explanation for why I'm trafficking cases weren't being identified and a group of social scientist said this is an interesting question is just the it is corruption. Wright police are corrupt. Prosecutors are corrupt. Police are bad. Prosecutors are bad. I think they just don't want to see it right. There are bad people. They've made bad choices. And is it just us in this administration's call her? I don't see it that way at all. I see this is a fascinating question, right? That in fact about corruption in the United States that might be about please corruption other parts of the world where Crush crushing is more rampant. But really, this is about structure. This is about organizational, for me, the thing that I'm fascinated,

13:14 Is about how is it that was in large, complex bureaucracies you you can ever get people to change what they do, just thinking different ways to find the solutions, to problems that we had easy solutions to in the past. Right? And so I've been fascinated by these questions about why I don't see the justice system response to trafficking in there in ineffectiveness times, in their response as being any different than their challenges. They face in responding to other complex problems right there with me. And none of us would sit around and say off the police and the justice system really gotten responses a sexual assault right over time. I see there's that it's been years and up of learning how to do that better. And and we know that there are a lot of imperfections in the way. The justice system responses trafficking isn't new. It's not, it's just a different type of problem has been identified. This very complex for which these systems are not well-suited to nimbly change at to respond to.

14:14 I think they need training that we all the pieces. We think about, they need by and they need organizational support a tent. So I'm fascinated at continuing to really unpack those issues around. We've defined trafficking as a crime problem. What are the challenges that the criminal justice system faces in Spalding to the problem. We've talked about many times is that it's the criminal justice approach the really the right approach to the issue of human trafficking. And you know, I'm not a lot of other countries around the world. They definitely take more of a public health framework and trying to address it and in the u.s. Is very much as you pointed out. Like who's the bad guy who arrest? And I think sometimes it is more harm and it creates more issues. And I think you know, not to say that law enforcement doesn't have a role in all of this, but I think very much

15:12 What we as a country of focus on in addressing this issue over the last 20 years it is it's very much like to do. We arrest, would we prosecute and not necessarily looking at the root causes of what continues to allow traffic going to happen in the US? Which is a lot bigger of an issue like poverty and systemic, racism and lack of education, for certain communities in that sort of thing. So, I think that's something that we still as a country needs kind of work on and figure out what role everybody should be playing and all of this and not just leaving it to the criminal justice system to some more generally write as a solution to all kinds of social problems. I said since certainly, since the 1960's, we've we've relied on the criminal justice system to be the solution for drug addicts.

16:12 In for poverty rate, would we could go back to thinking about the the failures of the war on poverty? Right? When the war on poverty is, right. We, we, we created a war on crime, right? At that, we could solve, we could solve crime problems or ready-made Solutions within the justice system. Now, I think we would all say we haven't exactly solve crime problems. Right? No one would argue that the the War on Drugs, led to the reduction in this addiction, right? It was, but what it did lead to is, is very recognizable responses. We've hired police officers. We put them on the street. We made them visible. We arrested people, we had incarceration rate. So we are very proud of right now, we're not. But, you know, so now we're having this rethinking, and I think criminal justice is is is as the as the framework for the responses, to trafficking wasn't fully unanticipated. When when we saw people talking about trafficking as a human rights issue and a gender equality issue for decades, even though they didn't use the

17:12 Trafficking, you know, it really just had very little motivation. And as soon as it got classified as a transnational crime threat and a crime issue, very deftly under the Clinton Administration, in the United States, who had a habit of making, lots of things, crime problems and giving them the harsh criminal. Justice Solutions has found it found a foothold and so I'm not suggesting that the police don't have rolls and some I think it's important to when things are harmful to actually name them. It's harmful, maybe name them at the vehicle. Maybe think about punishment for an accountability, for people for those things. But, but not to say, like always solve this problem. We passed a law criminalizing it. And now we have police out there making hundreds of arrests. I'm clearly that's not solving the problem at all. I'm going to give us an opportunity to

18:12 Methodologies. What do you think is that been really Innovative and an interesting way methodologically in which not only us, researchers brother research in the field of kind of approach this issue in some ways to have been illogical Innovations. I also think that there's, there's a lot of innovating still to do, right. So I think that in many ways that the field has relied on a lot of traditional research tools and impart. This is we are as we all know very well, this has been a huge challenge because they're just, they're dated didn't exist for every project we've done. We've had to go out and collect our own data. And when you have trouble with populations of victims, not being found, I do think there's a really innovative ways to use new sampling techniques and recruitment techniques to find people who never were identified by the system as victims. And I think that's been a really important turn that the field

19:12 Taking which is to say, we're not just going to stop just relying on police data or administrative data. And we're going to we're going to go out actually into places where people haven't been identified. So that's, that's been really important. I think sent to you. I sent you some rest of your work with Sheldon and thinking about how to build trust in those communities. And I also think that there are some really interesting things that other folks are doing right now related to using like other sources of data that we don't prediction Ali, think about, right? And trying to figure out, can we find indicators of trafficking within those sources of data? Can we think about leveraging go sources of data as explanation? So our vast array of administrative data around visas around inspections around, you know, it feels like there could be lots of lots of gems within that data. That no one's really looking at it from the perspective of trafficking. So I think Bri,

20:12 You know, people from other fields has been really interesting that bringing in people from computer science, and engineering and, you know, economics and some other areas to say, here's how I would approach this from my vantage point, which I think has pushed us further and it's helpful to have those Partnerships. Were you have the subject matter expertise, but you can push, you know, push forward night. I can't agree more. Cuz I think that, you know, as far as what were you able to do it to be limited and then, you know, there's some really interesting ideas coming out of other fields and some of them are great. Some of them are not so great and against, which is why I think I'm having content of matter. Experts in addition to having people who have lived experience as part of every conversation, which I will say, you know, it's kind of shocking that it's only becoming more of the norm to have an Advisory board or have trained.

21:12 Experiences that collection of that sort of thing. I think, you know, we've come a long way and in that regard as something that probably should have happened earlier on, but that kind of stuff correcting in that way. And I know both of us, than, in any of the people we work with her. Making sure that they're all part of that conversation now and part of, you know, you know, I think, you know, as far as Innovation goes. There's there's some really great ideas. But you know what is feasible on the ground? And as far as like, you know, outside of I think you're really, really good client with. Why don't we kind of mine? What's already collected to see if there's anything that we can find, that's useful, but continued primary data collection, you know, some of the work that I am doing globally. There's some really brilliant people out there, but I'm always in the one on the corner of being like, actually,

22:08 You try to do that on the ground. You're not going to be successful. I'm like the buzz kill almost every time but, you know, having that balance is really important, but I think that, you know, as we continue to bring people in from other fields, I think that's where methodologies become more Innovative and interesting people within the justice system, right? We're bringing them in a text for it's creating trust amongst on this really important for you can do the whole bunch of different methodological tools, but they really help provide us so much of the guidance in terms of the right direction to buy those tools and I think it helps with the notion of the Ivory Tower. 900 people who are be like your researchers and

23:08 The conversation or lead, where the goals and objectives of the project are incredibly valuable and important to talk about this in a future question. But this Society of like, also being able to do more quick. I think you and I both are very have some skills in spending some time with people and before long, they realize we were talking about, we're not completely out of it. We feel like we have some legitimate or not, just completely egg headed researchers, but that has often times taken like sitting in an office with people for an entire day, as we look, for case files and just having informal conversations or it's hard to build a trip or right away. So I think the ability for us to help have people that will trust us in the field to help facilitate that that going faster process doesn't need to be a barrier everywhere. But yeah, I think it is. It's a major challenge for people entering the field to sleep.

24:08 You know around survivors. Let me think about it. Like these different methodological approaches. Are there still questions that you wish we could answer? But that you, we've struggled to answer.

24:42 I think at least from in the US context whether it's helpful or valuable or not. Like they don't understand.

24:55 What trafficking looks like in the United States? I think it's something that is always the elephant in the room and what also prevents maybe from legislators and Congress or moving forward with certain resources in programming and that sort of thing. I mean, the fact is that we only just got funded last year to do the first that he looking at child labor, in the US. I think it's interesting. I mean, I'm excited and I'm grateful for particularly the federal government for, you know, entertaining or ideas and kind of, you know, we do a lot of exploratory research. Like, you know, they were talking of US citizens. And I think kind of laying that groundwork has been really important and will continue to be important. Because that's how you know, which discuss it's an ever-evolving.

25:45 Issue. And, you know, it's hard to keep up research by scuzz research projects, take about three years. So just as you're completing one project, things probably look very different on the ground. And it's kind of like, well, why didn't you include this that, and the other thing or so, it is, you do with researchers also limited based on funding and

26:08 Soap and access what you can do. So, you know, there are both forever. The minute. I think I stopped coming up with ideas of for research and exploration within this issue that I know it's time to peace out. I was like, what things we really need to know to understand cuz ultimately it's providing help and resources to those individuals who are the most impacted by this. And I think pretty good. From a programming standpoint. We have a long way to go.

26:50 What about you? I pick up on that from from a program example and I'm missing, they're still just so much more work to do about what the effective responses. I like. What is the just started to do having some real? You know, there's a lot of reasons why it's really challenging but I understand is true sort of program evaluation right at which types of programs which types of responses are effective and why effective means a lot of different things. And one of the reasons why that's been so challenging is because being able to figure out whether or not outcomes, improved for people requires the ability to attract them overtime, and population has been very transitory and very while system involved also hidden in many ways. It was particularly feminine, both labor trafficking and sex trafficking Realms, but for different for different reasons, and so I think really knowing if there's tons of programming out there and we have some ideas of reasons why some types of inter.

27:50 Pensions may be more effective than others. But we really do lack good, systematic data on program, evaluation, and that could be within within law enforcement approach shoes. Like the idea of what types of Criminal Justice is. It is it actually one of the things I've been thinking about was like, some of the labor trafficking cases were looking at, is that we're thinking myself in this? This team of researchers from engineering. And I was looking at this notion of disruption. Like, how do you create catastrophic disruptions? How do you stop people who are hurting other people from continuing to hurt them? Right? And we think of the Criminal Justice System, you getting federally prosecuted for an offense, will be a catastrophic destruction. But we're finding out. Is there really isn't actually just keep keep moving along. Very, very rarely. Is it ever a cat? It's potentially catastrophic in the sense that the victim actually gets out of that situation, but the victim isn't usually in a bunch of a

28:50 Replace, they often very often. Go back into other situations of exploitation. So it actually hasn't been. It's been a speed bump, Not A disruption, right? And it certainly hasn't been catastrophic. So it does make us question all of these interventions that were doing and how truly effective are they at making people's lives more safe and secure and for recognizing their humanity and you have, we have so much work to do when we think about the fact that we're we're starting from is the premise that some people fail to recognize the humanity of other people. And I think at the core, that's what all of trafficking is about, whether you're talkin about commercial sex or you're talking about Labor, exploitation. This is a group of people who've decided. This is other group of people isn't worth recognizing as a human being with rights, right? That they would be treated like other people within their social network that they would be given the same.

29:50 You know, I got it again, right benefits as humans. A tend to me fundamentally that, you know, that's a significant challenge to think about how we begin to reframe, how we look at each other in those situations.

30:07 I think part of the thing is, you know, these are my demands same plane as its. You know, what is again, is the criminal justice deterrence. What's going to prevent somebody from harming somebody else? Or is it more like a second, their bottom line and so disrupting their actual company or industry in the finances? And that's where the thing is that the wake-up call that's needed. But that's the most people feels even unnatural, right? Or smoking in your office. Right? Everybody is a smoke in their office all the time. Right? Nobody smokes in their offices. Any more right to what we say. Something just isn't right. Okay, you know anymore, right? This isn't this isn't the norm that were willing to support anymore. And I think there's a piece of trafficking that some of that might come from enforcement and make sure it looks like drunk driver.

31:07 We can say, like some of it came from the thought of people saying, like, I don't get arrested for drunk driving but also just became socially unacceptable to drink and drive, right? So how do we actually move the needle on some of those pieces where you say? She's actually just not, okay, to not pay my, you know, you know, landscapers or to not ask questions to ensure that no one in. This crew is being injured. Right? That I have that responsibility as another human that that's actually just something to do as people in the Civil Society. So different, and the one thing they have in common is like, some person was a complete jerk to another person who was really vulnerable and that, that is the common elements of them. Absolutely. Not agree more.

31:59 As far as may be lightning. Things up a bit. I don't know, you know, as far as the work that you've done. Is there any moment that stands out funny or not funny or just, you know, that that always if somebody were to ask you to tell you to tell them a story about, you know, the work that you do.

32:22 What is Brentwood? I usually tell them, I think, I think I'm going to go back to the Denver interviews. We talked to his interview that sticks in my mind, that it's so representative of so many conversations I've had with you, and I were interviewing a survivor of Labor exploitation, who was recounting these horrific things that had happened to him over a course of sometimes of being exploited and, you know, as a conversation moved on, she was the most grateful. He was just so hopeful about the future hopeful about the United States and the opportunities presented in the United States. Despite the fact that his primary experience United States has been someone exploiting him or ethically, but he wanted to go be a nurse practitioner who wanted to go into like you being a nursing assistants, right?

33:22 CNA he was training to do that. He wanted to just help other people and meeting so many people who have been through these very traumatic events who who come out of the other side with this resilience in when and I recognize that when were interviewing survivors were interviewing potentially, you know that those survivors that were the most resilient. That's how they got out there. The most resilient. That's how they're in an okay place today to do an interview, but I've been floored many times by the resilience that people have shown under incredibly dire circumstances, and their ability to find humanity, still in places where people have failed to find their humanity, and it just really has been reaffirming of The Human Condition, I think for me.

34:14 I think that was beautifully put and you know that I think resilience is the word that I always use. When somebody ask me. You know, how do you keep doing what you're doing, or what have you? And I'm like, just like hearing how resilient people are his face and in some cases like the worst of the worst, right? And who managed till I pick themselves up every day and go out there, you know, and in some cases have a positive outlook and be grateful. It's you do. It's definitely helps provide perspective, you know, as far as when you're having a tough day. It's just sometimes you want to have that tough day. But other times you're like and I want that person was in a waiver situation and it is has a way better Outlook about things that I currently do. So I agree I think resilience is it's the thing that keeps me coming back.

35:10 And I just answered my own question. When it comes to me, you know, obviously met lots of interesting people, maybe some not so interesting people. I think one of the things I've always taken away, at least for my International work, is to always have prescription drugs with you. Cuz the amount of times I've gotten sick and felt like I was almost going to die for their beef from food poisoning, or there was a time when I was in Myanmar in bed, and I had sex, my family and said, you might want to look and see if your passport is valid to pick up my body cuz my doctor prescribed me antibiotics before I left. But she says, for the upper and the lower and luckily, I was able to survive that experience, but you might have thought that this was lights out for me permanently and has managed to carry on. So, when people ask me, you know, International where it is,

36:09 But you also have to have a very strong Constitution. And in addition to mental health wise, a strong be strong emotionally. Cuz there have been plenty of times and now, but at the moment when it's happening, that's too much.

36:28 So that that's usually get my advice to people who want to do International work Cipro, be prepared. Be prepared for a

36:40 So I guess along those lines it is that in terms of the advice that you would give to someone who wants to have a career. In this this field. My advice is, you know, we talked about a lot and I know something we wanted to touch pain in it.

37:04 Serious trauma. And you know, I think this this work is tops and we've been doing it for 15 years. And so, you know, I think we have our good days and her bad days and you know for folks, I think that there's an element of this work where people, you know, whether it be through the baby Sensational stories, they've read or what-have-you. We're like, I really want to do that work. I want to make a difference and yes, would agree. I think that's obviously really important but I think the emotional toll it takes on you. People don't necessarily take that into consideration when they are looking to do this type of work and this is you know, stuff that will will forever carry for the rest of your life. That you know, there's the good interviews that you do where you walk away and they're like, oh my God, that persons in a really good place that that gave me hope that was inspiring, but there's going to be plenty of people that you

38:02 Encounter and you speak with who make you question that if this is something that you can can continue doing. Cuz it's just sometimes it looks like no matter what you do and how much work you put into it. Nothing changes. It's almost little glacial. And so I think for anybody who's looking to do, this work is kind of really taken to a cow, you know, what a day today, you'll be doing and what you'll be processing. And having to, you know,

38:34 Think about it at all times and if that's something you feel like you can do then that's worth pursuing and I know we've got one minute left. What would you give? As far as advice goes to somebody, I would agree wholeheartedly all of that and and I guess I would also say, you know that this is a this is a field to where they're there. There's a lot of theirs. There's some fracture in terms of the width of the beliefs about the root causes of the problem or what the problem is. There's this, you know, intersections about sex work and exploitation and abolitionists versus Sino decriminalization Alice and I think it's easy to get caught up in that and not know how to navigate through those Waters. And I think both of us have been on the sides of people as a researcher. Your job is to be a researcher in to take you kind of where the facts lead you into try to recognize devices in your own work and to be explicit about those. But to think about how to actually navigate

39:34 Through some of these Waters where you're not, so closely affiliated with one-third of dogmatic position that you're unable to actually, ask a wide range of questions, engage with a wide range of practitioners and and Advocates who may disagree with each other, you know, and that would be a place where I would feel like I had failed as if someone had said I couldn't work with that person because of xyr and sometimes those perceptions are wrong and we work hard to overcome them overtime, but it is a real challenge of this field and people very quickly label you into camps because it benefits them politically. And I think it's it's it's a challenging piece to navigate those Waters. We both been on both sides of the punching bag. And, you know, at the end of the day, yes, acknowledging your own biases, but making sure that your work doesn't reflect. Those biases is incredibly important and I think with that, always a pleasure.

40:34 Yes, this is a fun. I can't believe 40 minutes went too many questions that we could get to know each other first one.

40:51 All right.