Michael Lindsey and Patricia Liner

[00:03] MICHAEL LINDSEY: My name is Michael I'm 49 years old. The date is October 23rd, 2024. I'm at Columbus State. I'm here with Patricia my One Small Step conversation partner. Pat's bio I have lived in Columbus in the Columbus area all of my life. I've been married for 40 years. I am a real estate agent as well as full time caregiver for my 39 year old son who was paralyzed in a car accident 17 years ago. I have a large vegetable garden that keeps me busy. My husband and I met at college where I earned a degree in political science. I have always had a deep love of politics. When I was younger I was fairly vocal about my political beliefs, but it's a different time now.

[00:56] PATRICIA LINER: My name is Patricia I'm 63 years old. Today is October 23rd, 2024. I'm at CSU and I'm here with Michael, my one step conversation partner. Michael's bio oldest of three, lost my father at 11, mother at 16 and my 25 year old son a year ago. I have five amazing grandkids. I tend to believe the vast majority of people, regardless of where they stand on politics and religious issues, want the same things. They just have different ideas on how to get there.

[01:42] MICHAEL LINDSEY: So why did you want to protect participate in the one stop, one small step conversation?

[01:49] PATRICIA LINER: I like to participate in the community as much as I can and this looked like a good opportunity. And like I said in my bio, I used to like to talk about politics back in the day but I avoid it like the plague now and I thought it'd be something different to do. It was a good opportunity.

[02:15] MICHAEL LINDSEY: Pretty much sounds like me.

[02:19] PATRICIA LINER: Did you have any, did you tell any family members you were doing this?

[02:23] MICHAEL LINDSEY: Not really.

[02:24] PATRICIA LINER: Yeah, I haven't. I told my sister and my daughter.

[02:29] SPEAKER C: Is there a particular reason why?

[02:32] PATRICIA LINER: Because they both listen to NPR and they know what StoryCorps and I knew they'd be interested.

[02:42] MICHAEL LINDSEY: Yeah, I just, I tend to stay away from politics as much as I can around the house or certain people just because it's a slippery slope. I'm not really conservative. I'm not liberal. There are things that I like about both sides and I feel if I really like it, I feel strongly about it and I'm not backing away and that tends to get me in trouble at times.

[03:19] PATRICIA LINER: So it's my turn however we want to do it. Well, tell me about growing up. Did you grow up around here?

[03:29] MICHAEL LINDSEY: Well, I was born in Opelika and once my father passed we moved to Tallassee Stayed in Tallahassee until my mother passed. Moved back to Opelika, graduated, moved back to Tallahassee. Just young and stupid, crazy. Acting like a little moron for a while. Came back, ended up getting married. Was married for 23 years, I think it was that just didn't. Just didn't work. Met my girlfriend, what, it's four and a half years ago now, and moved to Smith Station. So.

[04:22] PATRICIA LINER: Cool. Well, I grew up here, but I've lived in Alabama, too. I never lived more than 20 miles from the medical center where I was born.

[04:35] MICHAEL LINDSEY: It sounds like my girlfriend, she tells her, my stepson all the time. You can move, but only 30 minutes away. That's your radius.

[04:48] PATRICIA LINER: Yeah, I. When I was growing up, my. I was my father's only child, so I was never encouraged to go anywhere. I was always encouraged to stay right here. And I was very obedient, and I did it.

[05:04] MICHAEL LINDSEY: It's kind of funny. You get away for a little bit and, you know, you come. You come like Tallassee's not far, but you come back. When did they put that there? When did they build those? Like, it's crazy.

[05:22] PATRICIA LINER: It is unreal how much our community has changed. I mean, Smith Station used to be just so little. Just a little outlying from Phoenix City, and it's a huge place now. A lot of people moving out there. Okay. Was there a moment that you witnessed or experienced that molded your current political beliefs?

[05:55] MICHAEL LINDSEY: Actually, I like to think about whatever the issue is, and I like to think about it from as many different sides as I can. Like I said, when I was younger, I was more conservative, much more conservative. Like the issue of abortion. I was firmly. No, it should not. Just from a more, you know, a morality point of view. And it was actually a conservative argument that changed my mind on it. I was listening to a radio program, and the guy was talking about, well, you know, if. If a woman has been assaulted, then we can, you know, we can write that into law to make it okay. And I'm going, wait a minute, hold on.

[06:55] PATRICIA LINER: How could it be okay for a while?

[06:56] MICHAEL LINDSEY: How can you write that into law? How is that going to work? If you. What proof would she need that she was assaulted? If you say she doesn't need proof, you haven't done anything. All anyone is going to do is say I was assaulted. If you say she needs. What proof does she need? Is it just a police report? Is it something from a doctor? Assaults can happen that really don't leave any physical. So what. How is that going to work? And the more I thought about it, wait, no, you can't really, because even though it may be morally wrong for me, I haven't been in those situations. So it may be morally wrong to me, but I've never, like my wife, my daughters were never assaulted. I don't know what my advice to them would be. I just don't. And because I don't know or can't say for certain what I would do in that situation, I can't tell someone else what they must do. And that just kind of.

[08:21] PATRICIA LINER: Yeah, I have always been agreeable with abortions. It's not for me. Luckily I never had to face that. But I did hold the hand of two friends when I was young while they went through it. And these are grown women now that I do know still. And I'm glad they're comfortable with their decision and they got on with their life. But I wouldn't want to be the one that said you can not take care of this however you want to. And I also raised a daughter, so I think it's important to keep in mind that teenagers are irresponsible and dumb. Mine wasn't, luckily, but there's a lot of. I have a sister in law got pregnant when she was 15 and had the baby and it impacted everybody's life for still, still this many years later. So I think it's important to be able to help young ladies get on with their lives.

[09:44] MICHAEL LINDSEY: So have you ever felt misunderstood?

[09:47] PATRICIA LINER: Oh, always. I'm constantly misunderstood. I worked for many years ago. Well, I tell you what year it was. It was when Clinton and Gore were running against Bush 1 and I worked at this large corporation and I got tickets to go see Al Gore and Bill Clinton down at the Trade center right here next door. And it was during work hours so I had to tell them where I was going. And my boss was a big Republican and all the other guys in the office were big Republicans and so they were messing with me. And I went and I went to the event and I came back and I was all excited and they had put a big note, boss wants to see you right away. They were messing with me. I knew I was misunderstood and I knew I was the odd man out, but it was their messing with me was good, spirited, which you don't find anymore. I would if it were now. I'd never tell anybody where I was going or what I was going to see. That's a shame.

[11:00] MICHAEL LINDSEY: Exactly, exactly. That I remember. And this is kind of going back, tying into the earlier question too. I tend to be more conservative than liberal. But I'm, you know, maybe 60, 40 or so, but I had a friend at work that was on this Facebook page, Trump supporters or whatever. And this was during the what, during the 20 campaign? I believe it was Alabama and LSU were playing at Alabama. Trump was coming in. There was a group that was there to protest Trump. They had brought the baby Trump balloon or whatever. This complete imbecile decides, hey, we don't like that. Y'all watch this. Jumps out, jumps out of the car that he's in, runs up with a box cutter, slices the balloon. Well, they arrest him in this group. These people are talking about how horrible it is this guy's been arrested, how they need to donate money to his legal defense. And I'm just going, wait, wait. Because I distinctly remember just a few years ago, there was a young kid wearing a Trump hat into this college. I don't know if it was a cafeteria or, like, just, you know, recreational area. This girl gets mad, sees the hat, snatches it from his head, takes off. And these same people were screaming, oh, she should be arrested. That's his private property. You have no. You know, you have no business destroying someone. And. Wait, hold on. Consistency here is the key. Like, if it's wrong for one, which I don't disagree with, it has to be wrong for the other. You can't. And try to explain that to these people. Oh, my God. You would have thought I were the devil himself.

[13:32] PATRICIA LINER: Yeah, that's an issue I have is being vilified. I'm vilified on the news all the time. People that believe the way I do, and they talk about. I don't. I don't know how to say it. Lost my train of thought. We need another question. Oh, I got one. Do you consider yourself patriotic?

[14:10] MICHAEL LINDSEY: That depends. I absolutely believe in the things this country was founded on and the promises that were made. I absolutely believe that. Whether we have lived up to those promises to the point that. That we should, is the question. I love the idea of this country. I love the idea of the principles behind it. But I think too many times now, we have let the symbol become more important than what it actually symbolizes. And flag burning would be. You're absolutely. You have every right to protest. If you burn the flag in protest, that's the symbol you. We're not free if we don't have freedom of expression.

[15:17] PATRICIA LINER: Correct.

[15:18] MICHAEL LINDSEY: You've got to be able to think for yourself. Part of that means you can go out and do this thing that everyone else hates. And be okay for that reason. To me, the flag never represents freedom more than when some idiot decides to burn it. Because that means you can do something everyone else abhors and walk away. And that's what freedom is. I don't like it. I wouldn't do it. If you do it, I'm going to think you're an idiot. But you should have the freedom to be an idiot.

[16:17] PATRICIA LINER: I agree. Unless that freedom involves breaking into the United States Capitol. I don't think that. That. That's part of freedom. I think that's anarchy. No, that was frightening, and it was anarchy. And I'm so afraid we're going to see something like that again. And that's not the place I thought I grew up. I didn't think that was our America. I never thought I'd see anything like that.

[16:48] MICHAEL LINDSEY: No. And I think a lot of it now, you watch the news and the media has. In my opinion, they have a vested interest in pointing fingers.

[17:05] PATRICIA LINER: Well, they gotta feel time. They gotta feel 24 hours.

[17:09] MICHAEL LINDSEY: Your side pointing fingers at my side? Those people are the problem. Those people are the evil ones. My side pointing fingers at your side? No, it's those people. They're the. And there's no conversation. There's no middle ground. So people that are easily led, that don't really like to think about things that just. Oh, okay, well, this person said, this is what I should think. That's what I'm gonna. And that's why we are so far apart now. I think if we could actually sit down and talk to one another. And you know what? We're different, that's fine. I respect you, you respect me. We sit down, have a conversation, and at least. At least when you walk away, you can feel like. You know what? I don't really like what Michael said here. I don't really like his idea about this, but I do understand how he came to that. And he's not a horrible person, and vice versa. And if we can spread that around enough. But I don't think the culture that we're in right now is really conducive to that.

[18:36] PATRICIA LINER: I agree. They talk about. These last few weeks are before an election are normally the time that they're trying to change undecided voters. I can't imagine that there's an undecided voter. You might not know if you're gonna go vote. But it's. It's. The choices are so completely different. I believe that there can't be anybody sitting on the fence.

[19:01] MICHAEL LINDSEY: I don't think well, yes and no. I think there are things that I look at that I lean this way. There are also things. And I'm an independent for the most part, but there are things that I look at lean right. There are things that I look at, I lean left. I know that I'm not voting for either main party candidate. It's just what independent candidate am I going to vote for? That would be to me, that's the undecided part.

[19:45] PATRICIA LINER: I can see that. But I've always said that politics is a team sport. You got to vote for the team. Back in the day when we could vote straight party, I did. It was easier for me. I really believe that especially at the state level, they're working together in groups based on their party and same thing at the national level. I think that you've got to pick a team.

[20:20] MICHAEL LINDSEY: See this my thing honestly, I think we would do better. We would get better politicians because the current crop that we have is just out of touch in so many ways on both sides. I think we'd do so much better if we just completely dissolve political parties. You stand there and tell me when you watch the campaign ads now it's all he said this. She did that. Vote for me. Wait, you're telling me what she did and I should vote for you? You're telling me what he said, so I should vote for. Why don't you tell me what you believe and let the election become and who's better, whose ideas are better, who is going to. You know. And then you tell me why I vote for you. And that's just my. And I can see. I definitely see the appeal of a party because many is always better than. Well, always greater than one. But I just personally don't think we're ever going to get where we need to go if we continue to just. Well, you know, he's. He's in my party, so yeah, I don't really like him, but I'm going to vote for him. I don't think we can really get there going that direction.

[22:10] PATRICIA LINER: Well, I will say I didn't vote for Herman Talmadge who was a Democrat. This was way back when I first started voting. So sometime in the 80s and I voted for Matt Mattingly as senator announced that the only time I voted nationally Republican. But it. Because the candidate was not of good character. I just could not in good conscience. I don't care what his party was. It wasn't a good man.

[22:42] MICHAEL LINDSEY: Let me see. That's that.

[22:44] PATRICIA LINER: So there's a limit. There's A limit to everything.

[22:48] MICHAEL LINDSEY: Yeah, I try to look at, okay, you may be in the other party, but you've said things here and here that, you know what, you've been married for 30 years, you've got a family, you've got roots, especially on a local or state, you know. Yeah, I'll. Okay, yeah, I'll vote for you. You may not be the party that I used to support, but yeah, you're a better person than this other guy. So you're going to get my vote.

[23:25] PATRICIA LINER: I see that. So what's extremely important to you? What's going to make you get out of the house and tell somebody this is important?

[23:52] MICHAEL LINDSEY: Family. And one main reason that I cannot support Trump, his stance on giving police federal immunity I think is just absolutely moronic. You will be held responsible for what you do. If you go out and sell a home to someone and you are just unscrupulous in the way that you do it, you can absolutely be held accountable for that.

[24:30] PATRICIA LINER: Yeah, I pay every month for errors in omissions, insurance just because of that.

[24:35] MICHAEL LINDSEY: If a doctor goes out and commits malpractice, he's going to be held accountable for that. And I'm not anti law enforcement or anything like that. But if a law enforcement officer goes out and does something in error, he should absolutely be held to the same standard that anyone else would be.

[25:00] PATRICIA LINER: I agree. I think the military to some degree holds people to a standard. You can do things in the military and be court martialed for not doing it correctly or mistreating prisoners or whatever. And I think it should be the.

[25:16] MICHAEL LINDSEY: Same for law enforcement, the military, actually their law, their rules of engagement are so much stricter than what our police have. Like they, and this is in a war zone, you know, there are certain things that have to be met before you can use force. Police officers can escalate things, escalate things quickly. Use force and then say, I'm a police officer, you know, and I just don't, I don't agree with that. So I, for the. If that issue alone is just no, I am so far against anyone being able to abuse their authority. That, that issue alone just.

[26:19] PATRICIA LINER: That'S a good.

[26:23] MICHAEL LINDSEY: So what's extremely important to you.

[26:28] PATRICIA LINER: I am a month away from being 64. Social Security is top of mind, top of mind and insurance. And I think it's a very complicated thing. I will be transitioning to Medicare at some point in my near future. That's a little frightening. Healthcare in general is a little frightening. And dealing with. I have an. In law that's being put in a retirement facility and we're having to net. My husband's having to navigate the insurance, et cetera. It. It's unreal. And I worry about people, people that don't have it. You know, I have a grown son who is a paraplegic. And when he had his accident, he was covered under two insurances. He had all the coverage. We got the best care. And the whole time I was thinking, there's got to be young men who don't have coverage. What is happening to them? Who's taking care of them? And because my son went to the facility in Atlanta, and one of the things they look for is family support, they're looking for good outcomes. They're looking for patients that are going to do well. And I think there's people out there that are really getting lost because they don't have the great insurance. They don't have the ability to pay for great care. And the Affordable Care act didn't make it affordable. It made it available. It should be called the Available Care Act. But I don't think that's what Obama started with. I think that's what we ended up with. And that's just the way politics works. Universal health care turned into, okay, you can buy it. That's a step. It was a big deal for people in my industry who have coverage, and it was always a horrible problem for any kind of independent contractor to have insurance coverage, but it's still so expensive.

[28:50] MICHAEL LINDSEY: I can imagine.

[28:55] PATRICIA LINER: I'm very lucky. My husband still works for the large company I used to work for, and we're still covered. But if I had gone straight into my industry without him, I would be paying I don't know how much per month for healthcare.

[29:15] MICHAEL LINDSEY: Just in case.

[29:16] PATRICIA LINER: Just in case. Just in case something happens. Yes. Well, let me ask you, since you lost your parents young, how do you think that impacted your growing up?

[29:40] MICHAEL LINDSEY: Well, not. I can definitely understand the importance of having a father around because, you know, my father passing when I was 11, there were a lot of things that I struggled with. Just, you've got to figure this out on your own. And that for a boy, you know, that's. That's really difficult. And then my mother was in such bad health that, being the oldest, that I enroll my youngest sister into kindergarten. I had to take the half a day from school in the seventh grade and be the one to walk her in.

[30:36] PATRICIA LINER: Oh, wow.

[30:37] MICHAEL LINDSEY: Get her paperwork. If there was anything that required a parent's signature, I had to take it to my mom. But Basically I met the teacher I talked to when she passed and we moved in with my aunt and uncle. It was a burden off my shoulders. But at the same point in time, it was such a change that you've been the one, you know, making sure they got fed. You've been the one making sure the bills got paid, whatever it was, and now you don't have that. It just kind of, you know, you kind of feel like you're in a free fall to an extent. But yeah, it forces you to grow up early. But at the same time, when you get a little relief from that, you go a little off the deep end.

[31:39] PATRICIA LINER: I can see that. So do you have political discussions around Thanksgiving at your house?

[31:50] MICHAEL LINDSEY: Oh.

[31:52] PATRICIA LINER: Or in your workplace?

[31:54] MICHAEL LINDSEY: My brother in law, well, we were actually talking a little bit of politics earlier today, but it was pretty much how horrible both parties are. But my brother in law, oh, I ran him out of the room a couple of Thanksgivings ago. Basically telling the same story that I was telling earlier about just being consistent with, hey, if it's wrong for this side to do it, it's got to be wrong when your side does it. And you have to be, it's more important for you to call out your own side when you see your own side doing something that you feel is wrong. Because light most favorable to you, your side is golden, they're beautiful, nothing wrong. The other side is the evil side. That's the. Why would you want your side to be corrupted by the same thing that's got the other side? Call it out when you see it. And he, this man was red in the face. You could tell. Walks out of the room. Well, like, it is what it is, dude.

[33:31] PATRICIA LINER: Yeah, I, especially with co workers, I just avoid it or change the subject if it comes up because people oftentimes assume that I believe the same things they do and they just start talking to me. I'm like, oh, I had a different experience. I don't know.

[33:51] SPEAKER C: I've got a follow up question for that. Okay, so with those conversations with family members, let's say at Thanksgiving, how do you navigate those conversations with family who you don't agree with? And do you have any tips on how to have a better conversation?

[34:13] MICHAEL LINDSEY: I try not to start the conversation when I know that there's going to be a disagreement just because it's easier to. But if the conversation is started, stand your ground, you don't have to back up. You don't have to apologize for feeling the way that you feel for believing what you believe. It's nothing personal. Don't make it personal. Don't call names, but don't back up. Whatever you believe, believe it and stand on it.

[34:57] PATRICIA LINER: Yeah, I think there's a lot of lack of people agreeing to disagree, which sometimes you just have to.

[35:06] MICHAEL LINDSEY: Exactly. You just. You know what? I don't agree, but that's the way it is. She's entitled to her opinion. He's entitled to believe what he believes, even if it's wrong.

[35:23] PATRICIA LINER: So is there a historical event that occurred in your lifetime that changed the way you view America?

[35:33] MICHAEL LINDSEY: Well, it's kind of cliche at this point, but September 11th.

[35:38] PATRICIA LINER: Yeah.

[35:41] MICHAEL LINDSEY: When the Patriot act was passed. You know, everyone at that point was America first. But I saw the Patriot act pass and I was. Hold on, wait. All of these things I thought we believed keeping government small, doing with. Had, you know, keeping government small, believing that people have individual rights. And those are sacrosanct to. What do you mean? They can listen to my phone conversation without. Without a warrant, without any evidence that I've done anything, with no suspicion that I've done anything. How does that work? And that's fine with you? I. That really started.

[36:45] PATRICIA LINER: Yeah.

[36:51] SPEAKER C: What about you, Patricia

[36:56] PATRICIA LINER: A historical event. I know that there was a. Okay, I'll tell you. I was raised alone. I have a half sister, but I'm much older. And we had a little camper in the backyard and daddy put it up close to the house. And this was in 1968, the summer of 68, before the Democratic Convention. And I camped out in there and I had a little tv and we only had two channels then. So I watched the Democratic National Convention. And I remember distinctly, remember as a child watching Shirley Chisholm give her speech, and I just. It just warmed my heart. I just have always felt aligned with that group of people. And I think that might be where it started. But I guess if there has to pick an event, that's probably. That's my origin story.

[38:02] MICHAEL LINDSEY: So do you think the Democratic Party is still the party that. And I'm not talking about mainstream, like, I'm not talking about you, but do you think it's. It's still that party for the most part, or do you think it's being kind of carried too far to the left by this new group that's coming in?

[38:27] PATRICIA LINER: I don't know if it's too far to the left. I certainly think it's portrayed that way. The 24 hour news cycle has had an incredible impact on our lives. I mean, you think about when we were kids you're going to get your news twice a day in the paper and once in the evening with Walter Cronkite, and that was it. And there wasn't a time where you, like I did in 2020, and leave the TV on all day and you're watching the news and you're staying riled up about it and, you know everything that's going on. Yeah, it's too much. It's too much information sometimes.

[39:11] MICHAEL LINDSEY: And see, and that's. That's the thing, too. The media drives the narrative. It's that there are people on both sides that if you listen to the media, these people over here on the right are so far, you know, so far to the right. These people over here to the left are so far. Well, yeah, they are. Like, those people exist. Those people exist, but those people don't represent me. Those people don't represent you. And they're a smaller fraction than anyone wants to, actually. They're just vocal. They're just so loud that you can't ignore them.

[40:07] PATRICIA LINER: I do think, certainly in our community, I think on the right side, they're very loud and their yards are very decorated. When I go down my street, it's a lot of Trump signs. I actually saw a Harris Wall sign. I don't know where I was. I was out somewhere in the country and I saw the sign and I had to stop and think about what it was because it's the first one I had seen. It's just. It's incredible how one group of people is really into signs and T shirts and decorations, and I hope they all show up to vote.

[40:51] MICHAEL LINDSEY: You know, that's my thing. I don't like what happened to, you know what, you go in the voting booth and that's like, you vote for who you want to vote for and you leave it there. I go in and I vote for who I want to, and I leave it there. And then we come out and go grab a beer or, you know, what happened to that? That's really what we.

[41:25] PATRICIA LINER: Yeah.

[41:26] MICHAEL LINDSEY: What we remember is not.

[41:30] PATRICIA LINER: Yeah, I was always. I grew up different from my family. They are big Reagan supporters, Bush supporters, and they knew I was the outlier, but they blamed it on the college. You know, she went over there and they formed the way she thinks. That's why she's like that. But anyway, yeah, I.

[41:56] SPEAKER C: Talk more on.

[41:57] PATRICIA LINER: That about being different from my family.

[42:00] MICHAEL LINDSEY: Yeah.

[42:01] SPEAKER C: How did that impact you? How did that develop your beliefs?

[42:04] PATRICIA LINER: Oh, I think it probably made me double down a little bit more. My especially, I remember The Reagan years. Yeah. My family was very, very pro and I always felt like I was put in a position where I have to defend everything I thought about. But being young, I didn't mind telling them my opinion. I'm not like that anymore. But yeah, I think it makes you a little bit. It doesn't build up confidence of your family when you're different like that. They think, oh, well, you know, she doesn't know how. If she doesn't know how to. If she can't handle politics, can she handle money or children or a career? But yeah, I think it always made me a little different. But I always had this hippie mom. My parents got divorced when I was real young and my mom was super hippie. And I remember she came back to town and my dad said, and she's voting for McGovern. And I thought, well, that must be interesting then if she's voting for McGovern. There must be something else going on there that I don't know about. And maybe that's part of my origin story too, is I had two very different, very different parents.

[43:34] MICHAEL LINDSEY: But that. Do you think being questioned like that, being different like that, and feeling that you always had to defend your beliefs, did that make you better at like researching what you believe, why you believe it?

[43:52] PATRICIA LINER: Yeah. And you certainly have to give some thought to things if you're going to defend them. You better have thought about it. And to think about it, you better have read something. Which is a little bit of a problem I have now because I'm trying to get off the 24 hour news cycle, but I'm kind of on the 24 hour NPR cycle right now.

[44:19] MICHAEL LINDSEY: That's. I just, I'm sorry. Let me. Okay.

[44:32] SPEAKER C: Like Patricia shared, you know, like watching the Democratic National Convention when she was a child, you know, and how that kind of like was like that starting point.

[44:42] MICHAEL LINDSEY: Do you have a story like that? Well, I remember, I remember watching some of Reagan's speeches when I was young. Actually, I do remember vaguely the, the hostage crisis in Iran when I was like four, watching the news when that was going on. I was interested in politics when I was a kid, but it wasn't, you know, front and center. That really didn't happen until high school. And at that point it was, it was Clinton and Bush. And right now I think I would be happy, as I would be happy to go back to Clinton from what we've had in the past few, few years.

[45:54] PATRICIA LINER: Well, speaking of former presidents, I, of course, was not a Bush supporter, but I had respect for both Bushes and Reagan as adult men who know how to act in public and talk to people. And I was, I was never ashamed to have them representing my country and dealing with other people. I might not have liked the way they did things, but I wasn't embarrassed by them. And I kind of feel now like America used to be the referee of the world and the contents of the world and I don't think we're that anymore. And that bothers me.

[46:39] MICHAEL LINDSEY: It's almost like when I hear people say, well, Putin didn't do this when Trump was in office. Okay, that's true. Putin didn't do certain things when Trump was in office. This other country didn't do certain things when Trump was in office. But that's because it's almost like you've got a hormonal 13 year old girl, you know, I don't know where she's going with this. And it, I feel the same way. It's not like, okay, please just don't say anything stupid this time.

[47:26] PATRICIA LINER: Don't do anything. Yeah. That's what watching 24 hour news cycle used to be. Turn out of morning to see what he, what he said yesterday or last night. That. And that's not interesting to me. I'm a big Jimmy Carter fan. I know he's not considered widely to be a great president, but he's a great man and I just admire his respectfulness of other people and his ability.

[47:58] MICHAEL LINDSEY: To be a peacemaker and that's what we're missing now.

[48:03] PATRICIA LINER: And he's a devout Christian and always had that front and center. But he did it in such a way that I think it was, I just liked the way he did it.

[48:16] MICHAEL LINDSEY: Well, there's a way to, you know, you can hold a belief and hold it vehemently for yourself and not disrespect someone else. Someone else's belief that doesn't share that or you know, like 180. There's a way to do that and not to disagree without being disagreeable.

[48:45] PATRICIA LINER: Yeah. If your faith leads your life and points the compass for you, it's good. But when you start wanting it to lead other people's lives, I think is when it gets difficult.

[48:59] MICHAEL LINDSEY: Exactly, exactly. That was, that's another reason that I really cannot support the mainstream Republican Party right now. When you have people like Lauren Boebert going on Fox and talking about we need to have biblical literacy tests in school.

[49:27] PATRICIA LINER: Yes. It's very narrow minded.

[49:30] MICHAEL LINDSEY: I cannot support that because, well, what Bible, what version, what version of Christian, what denomination? Who Gets to decide. Is it you? Is it like.

[49:45] PATRICIA LINER: Yeah, I just think you're right. Your religion shouldn't be private, but it should be personal.

[49:54] MICHAEL LINDSEY: Exactly. You can tell people what you believe. You can be an advocate, but don't. You can't legislate my morality.

[50:05] PATRICIA LINER: Right.

[50:05] MICHAEL LINDSEY: And I shouldn't be able to legislate yours. And the thing is, we know American politics is so cyclical. Why would I give your evil side the power to do something? Or why would I give my side the good and righteous side? Why would I give them the power to do something knowing that in four years and eight years, your side's gonna have the power? And now your side has the power that I just gave to my. Why? It makes no sense to me at all, but that's. That's me. You guys want to do one of.

[50:50] SPEAKER C: The wrap up questions? We're out of time.

[50:54] PATRICIA LINER: Oh, I got one. What's something that's been bringing you joy lately?

[51:00] MICHAEL LINDSEY: Well, just this past summer, we started a. We started a nonprofit to honor my son. He loved football. He loved wrestling. Wasn't very good at. But he loved it, and he worked. So what we decided to do was start a nonprofit to give kids that don't have or wouldn't have an opportunity to play football or baseball or whatever to. We raise money and pay their fees for them to participate in sports. And that's.

[51:44] PATRICIA LINER: Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. Because it's not cheap.

[51:46] MICHAEL LINDSEY: No, no. And we were just able to help our first kid with wrestling this past season. And that was huge for me that I don't cry. But I was. I told my ex wife, I'm like, no, you. And the girls go, I can't. When they took the check, I was like, no, I. I can't do that. Y'all. Y'all be the one.

[52:14] PATRICIA LINER: Well, that's a nice nonprofit. That's. That's interesting.

[52:18] MICHAEL LINDSEY: So what about. What about you?

[52:22] PATRICIA LINER: What brings me joy lately is puppies. I have four dogs. I'm a dog lady. Got one of my Halloween costume. We wore it yesterday. She was a cow. I was a farmer. We did trunk or treat. I don't have any grandkids like you do. You're lucky. So I have. I have doggies. That's about it.

[52:52] MICHAEL LINDSEY: I may be lucky. My wallet is not.

[52:54] PATRICIA LINER: Yeah. Well, I'd like to thank Michael I think this has been a very good experience. Very different. And if Michael and I had met, we probably would have chatted. But I don't know if we would have gotten this deep. We certainly wouldn't have. So it's been very nice.

[53:23] MICHAEL LINDSEY: It has. I've really. I've really enjoyed it. It's. It's different. It's nice to be able to sit down with someone that you don't. Wouldn't necessarily agree with or wouldn't agree that much with, but to be able to sit down and have a conversation, not a debate. Yeah, it's.

[53:50] PATRICIA LINER: I agree. Thank you.