Michael Ostermiller and Nicole Ostermiller

[00:01] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: My name is Mike Ostermiller. I'm 50 years old. Today is Monday, October 3, 2022. I'm here in Ogden, Utah, with Nicole Ostermiller, who is my daughter.

[00:16] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: My name is Nicole Ostermiller I'm 21 years old. Today's date is Monday, October 3, 2022. We're in Ogden, Utah. I'm with Mike Ostermiller, who is my dad.

[00:29] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: Nicole, at what point in your life did you start to suspect that you might be queer? And can you talk to me just a little bit about what that awakening process was like for you?

[00:45] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Sure. I think as I've gotten older, I've remembered more and more things where I'm looking back, I'm like, ah, that's such a, like, I should have known, like, so many things. I think one that I didn't even, like, remember until probably like, a year or two years ago was we were in Disneyland. I was a little kid, and we were on Main street, and you and mom were doing something, trying to get us all riled together to, like, get us to a ride or something. It's very chaotic. And in all of this chaos, I looked up and saw two girls kissing, and that was the first time I'd ever seen it. And literally in my head, I was like, that's the coolest thing ever. Like, you can do that. Like, I did what? Like, that's the thing. Like, I. It was like a kid. I just walked into a candy shop. I was so excited, and the distractions of Disney took me away, and I got excited to probably buy some food or something after that and kind of forgot about it. And it was very meaningless for me. And shortly after that, circumstances and where we had lived kind of had. I very quickly learned that that wasn't okay, and that wasn't something that, at the time, I wasn't supposed to do. And so I kind of just forgot about it. And it was kind of whatever I went on, as every kid does, and I had many, many, many moments like that as a kid where looking back now that I have the language is how I felt. I'm like, oh, I should have known that that's what that was. Had I had the language, I'd probably known when I was probably about, like four or five. But when I actually started to figure out and got the language and, like, put it all, put all the pieces together was when I was probably about 1314, and I had. I had started watching, like, coming out videos on YouTube, and I think I started watching them by accident. Like, I think I was watching a different type of YouTube video at the time, and they, like, autoplay, and I had, like, switched to being on my phone, so I was playing in the background, and it was like, auto playing, and this video came on and, like, something caught my ear, and I was like, oh, that's really interesting. Like, what am I watching? And I looked down and I realized what I was watching, and. And I had just started listening and watching this video. And one video became five videos, which became 20 videos. And every single video, I'd just be like, oh, my gosh, that makes so much sense. That's what I'm feeling. That's how I feel. That's exactly how I feel. That makes so much sense. That's the language I've been looking for my entire life to describe it. And it was this very almost brief moment of, like, oh, everything makes sense. Like, all these feelings, all these things that I thought made me weird or was different, or, like, things that I had suppressed had, like, finally come up and I was like, oh, that's I'm queer. Like, that makes so much sense. And it was, I mean, shortly followed by that realization of, oh, I'm queer. Now I gotta deal with that. But I would say that's, you know, probably the point when I really realized. And it was definitely, like, a combination of a lot of different things coming together to finally getting that language and finally being like, oh, that makes sense. So, yeah. So now I want to ask you kind of the same question from your perspective. What were there things that happened throughout my childhood that you may have noticed or different things? What made you suspect that I was queer, if there were any things? And when did that happen?

[04:13] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: Well, it's funny because memory and perspective is a really. It's a funny thing. When I look back retrospectively, yeah. I can think of lots and lots of little tiny things, little experiences that we had through your childhood that at the time didn't mean anything to me or for sure didn't mean that. But now when I look back with the knowledge I have and I add all those together, I think, of course, but at the time, that wasn't what we thought. You know, we. Our brains weren't programmed to think that that might be the case. You know, I'll just give you one quick example. I remember once you were maybe seven or eight years old. You were little, and I was in your room. I don't know if you remember. I hope you remember, but I had a tradition of reading bedtime stories to you and to your siblings. Every night and tucking you in for bed. And I remember I was laying in bed with you, and I read you a story, and after the story, I was kind of just getting you ready to go to sleep, and I leaned over and was cuddling with you, and I was like, oh, you're. Aren't you daddy's little princess? Or something like that? And you looked at me and said, well, maybe, but I think I'd rather be daddy's little prince. And I just kind of laughed, and you laughed, and we cuddled, and I left, and I didn't think much of that. And that's just one of a couple hundred examples like that that I can see now were starting to tell me and you. But I think really, you were 13 or 14, and your mom and I could tell you weren't happy. We could tell you were struggling, and we could tell you were in emotional pain. And we didn't know why. We didn't know what the problem was. We didn't know whether it was a phase or whether you were just hitting puberty like a brick wall or whether it was hormonal or just whether something in life was causing you to struggle. But we could tell you were struggling. And this was one of a lot of possible explanations. And frankly, I think maybe because I was hoping at the time it wasn't the case, I put it sort of at the bottom of the list of possibilities until you and I had a conversation that we'll talk about in a minute on the way home from one of your soccer practices. But that's kind of about the time we started to suspect.

[06:47] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Do you think that you also didn't know when those things happened? When I was a kid, because you also didn't have the language, or it was like, that part denial of, like, oh, I don't really want this to be the case. You know, like, oh, she's, like, so young. Like, we don't even know. We haven't even gotten there. Like, do you think that's what was happening? And Vinci was really just like, I don't even know what that meant.

[07:06] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: Yeah, maybe a little bit of it was that we didn't have the language, and maybe a little bit of it was. I was just hoping that that wouldn't be a challenge that you or I or your mom or our family would have to deal with, you know, for a lot of reasons. I just was hoping maybe that wouldn't be the challenge. And then I also think that it just wasn't, for the longest time, it just wasn't even a possibility that I even had considered because I had dealt with the issue in the abstract.

[07:39] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Yeah.

[07:39] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: I had dealt with it from a theoretical perspective, but never from a realistic, this is part of my life perspective until you and I talked for the first time.

[07:50] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Yeah. Isn't that interesting that we both didn't want it to happen in the beginning and, like, was so afraid of it, and now it's like part of the most beautiful moments of our life.

[08:00] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: So, Nicole, tell me a little bit about what it was like for you during that time period when you realized, okay, I'm queer.

[08:10] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Yeah.

[08:10] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: But before you and I talked and you came out, let's call it coming out, you officially came out to me. There was a period of time in between those. Can you describe what it was like for you, especially emotionally or from a psychological perspective during that period of time? And then next I wanna ask you about the coming out process.

[08:31] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Yeah. So I've described it this way before, but it was probably about. So the timeframe is probably about a year to a year and a half from when I first started to realize and knew that that's what was happening and got rid of that denial. And before I finally got to the point where I was like, okay, I'm confident enough, I'm okay enough. No matter what happens, I can say it and it's fine. Even if the reaction, which I knew it wouldn't be, but even if the reaction was really bad, and it was worst case scenario on all fronts, I would be okay, because I was comfortable with myself as much as I could be at the time. But I think during that time, the best way I could describe it, it was like I was in a room and it was completely dark and I couldn't see anything around me. I knew there was a way out. There's a window somewhere, a door somewhere, but I had no clue how to get there. I had. There was no one else there. And no matter how much I screamed or helped or ran around or kept stumbling in this room, I couldn't find the way out. And it really did feel like that. To paint the picture, we were living in suburbia, Utah, where everyone was pretty much the same. And if you were different, you were pretty much pointed out immediately.

[09:48] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: Middle, upper class, white, mormon, heterosexual, suburban.

[09:54] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Right.

[09:54] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: Is where we live.

[09:55] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Exactly. And, you know, it was like no one talked about it. I mean, it's better now. I can see that there's making growth in the culture now, but especially at the time, like it was either the word gay was either used in a joke or was really taboo and a really weird subject to bring up. And so it wasn't anyone I could talk to about it. And I didn't feel like I was so scared that if I uttered the word that everyone would hate me and it would destroy my life. And I also hated myself because of it. I also wasn't okay with it. So it wasn't just me fighting the world, it was me fighting myself and the world. And so I felt like for a year and a half, I was just trudging through each day just trying to navigate life. No matter what happened that day, I, to be honest with you, don't remember, like, bits. And, like, there are good parts of that time that I think my brain is just, for now, shut out of my memories because it was just such a dark, like, gloomy time for me, and there wasn't a lot of. A lot of hope and light that it would get better. And I just had, like, no clue that there was any. Like, I thought I was the only one in the world experienced that. Like, I thought I was the only one who was feeling this loneliness and this hatred of myself. And, like, you know, I grew up being told that being gay, being queer, was the same thing as being a murderer on, like, sin level, if that even exists, right? Like, those were the same thing. So when I figured it out, it was, like, crap. Like, I. This is the one thing I feared the most in life. I remember having thoughts as a kid, like, you know, being like, I. I'm glad I'm not that. Like, that would be so terrible. And when I first started to realize it, it was those thoughts of, like, holy crap, I now have to, like, deal with that, and I now have to, like, tell people that or it's gonna consume me. And so it really was every day of just, it was this constant battle of, do I let it consume me and do I give in to it or do I keep fighting? And. And when I really started to, like, get to that point of, like, okay, I gotta. I gotta do something about this. Like, it's either do or die at this point, literally, like, I was doing so bad. Like, I hated myself so bad. Everything in the world was telling me that that was the correct feeling, that I should be feeling shame, I should be hating myself. That's how I was internalizing any. Everything, at least, and everything I could use as another example or another piece of evidence as to why I was valid in that feeling. And so it really was just a lot of, like, loneliness and feeling like I was the only one. And it was the most beautiful experience to come out of that and to start telling people. And I remember the first person I told, you know, my best friend at the time, and I literally, I don't know if you know this, but I came out as bisexual to him. Like, I couldn't even say the word gay. It wasn't gonna happen. And he knew. He knew. He didn't say anything at the time, but, you know, I couldn't even, like, utter the word yet.

[12:57] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: You had to ease into it.

[12:58] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Yeah, I had to ease into it in some sense, which I think was crazy. I started to tell people, and then I met people online who started to validate good feelings, who started to be like, it's okay, you're okay. You're valid as a human being just the way you are. And definitely, I still struggle with that internal, no, you're not okay. It's not okay. I still feel that voice, but it's so small now compared to that was this mean voice in my head. Now it's this little nagging voice in the back that I can just say, shut up. Get out of here. That's not how we think anymore. And so really, it was just this beautiful, like, oh, I can finally, like, it's okay. Like, I can tell people and it'll be okay, and I can ask for help, and it'll be okay. And, like, when you first sent me to. When you. Well, I guess second time, but when, you know, when I went to therapy and told my therapist the first thing my entire, like, this is who I am. Like, this is how I got to this point. This is all the things that have happened. I finally, like, felt this, like, oh, I'm not in that dark room. I found the door. I, like, found some way out. Someone reached in and just yanked me out of this room. And then I was finally, slowly. So I just had the process of telling you and mom and telling my siblings.

[14:15] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: And so I want to ask you about that experience of actually coming out. And then I'm hopeful you'll ask me, so I can. We can each share our perspectives because they're different, but the same. Right. And same situation, but vastly different perspectives. But I think I would just add to what we were just saying during that time period from a. Every parent that I've ever known just wants one thing for their kids. They just want their kids to be happy. Yeah, we could tell you weren't happy.

[14:45] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Yeah.

[14:45] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: And that caused your mom and I an incalculable amount of worry and grief and pain and anxiety, because we could tell you weren't happy, and we didn't know why, and so we couldn't fix it. And as your dad, as your daddy, I'm programmed, I'm hardwired to fix your pain. That's all I want to do as your dad. And I couldn't do it because we didn't know what was causing it. And so I stayed up lots and lots of nights just worrying about you because I could tell you weren't happy. I wanted you to be happy, and I didn't know how to help you with that. So can we transition now? And let's talk about from your perspective. You mentioned a minute ago you came out to your best friend, but talk a little bit about the first time you came out.

[15:32] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Yeah.

[15:33] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: I think to me and to your family. And I think that's really when the process started of coming out. I think to yourself officially and also to the world is kind of after you and I talk. So can you share that experience from your perspective and then I'll share it from you?

[15:50] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Yeah. I mean, some people, I think, do coming out so much more graceful than others. I mean, I guess more than me. I think I stumbled into coming out, like, just tumbled down a hill, which is how it happens. It's how I do life. I'm learning, and I wouldn't change it for the world, but I, you know, I didn't have that, like, oh, I'm coming out on social media, and everyone's gonna know right at once. Or, you know, I didn't really quite have that process. For me, it was more of a process of, like, who do I, who in my life do I care that I tell them in person and have that conversation with, and then the rest of the people can just find out and it'll be a part of me. And something I didn't know at the time and something that I learned and I think a lot of people don't even realize is, you know, for queer people, coming out is a constant life thing. Every time I meet a new person, it's, do I, do I tell them that? Do I not, do I openly share it? And. Which is so unfair.

[16:45] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: Like, straight people don't have to come out as straight. Right. It's just, that's something that society has created for queer people.

[16:53] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Yeah. And now that I've gone on this journey of, like, questioning my gender, too, it's like this whole world of, like, do I even talk about that? How much do I talk about it? It's this constant feeling of, like, do I feel comfortable with this person? Do I. Am I ready? And really, the first time I came out, I mean, that was just, like, a really heightened experience of that. It was, you know, like, figuring out, okay, like, who am I gonna tell, and how am I gonna tell them, and when am I gonna tell them? And leading up to that moment, you know, I really, like, had gotten to a point where I was, like, I need to come out or I'm, like, gonna kill myself. Like, that was the point I was at. Like, it was either come out and face it and fight it or hide from it. And that was the path that. That led to. Cause that's how bad I was doing. And so when I started to tell people, I still couldn't even say the word gay. Like, I couldn't even, like, get to that point. But I started to, like, open myself up to just showing that part to people. And, you know, from my perspective, this also a moment happened that, like, kind of the best, like, scared me back in the closet a little bit. And I don't even know if you know about this moment. I don't talk. We haven't talked about it a lot, but there's a moment. I was watching more of those. Like, I was just watching queer youtubers. Like, there was whatever trend was popular at the time, and what all other 14 year olds were doing were watching their favorite youtubers. And one of the videos had, like, a picture on it of two girls kissing. Like, that was the, like, thumbnail picture. And I had left my computer open, and that's what was open. And I had walked away and gone to the bathroom and came back in, and mom was sitting there and, like, looking on my computer. And, like, my heart had just dropped into my stomach, and I was just like, oh, no. And mom thought I had just been watching videos of girls kissing. Like, that's all I was watching. Cause she just saw this one thumbnail. She's like, why are you watching this? Like, you know, like. And kind of got at me, and, you know, I can recognize now that was just a lot of fear coming from her. But at the time, it was a lot of fear. Like, I was very scared, and I was like, I don't know what's gonna happen. And so, you know, you know, she go to this moment where we are sitting in the car. After that moment, you know, it was fine. I kind of. Mom tried to put locks on my computer. I undid the locks as I often did, and then, you know, we went on with life. Mom thought she had the locks on my computer, but, you know, and then go to this moment where we're sitting in the car and we're coming home from a soccer practice, and, you know, when you started to bring it up, all I could think about was a mom told him, like, I'm about to get it. Like, I'm about to get talked to. Like, I'm about to, like, get a light. Like, something. Like, I don't know what's gonna happen, but am I. Am I gonna get a, like, lecture? Like, I don't even know what these fears really were like, but I, like, was convinced I was gonna get in trouble in some way, and so I was really prepared to, like, be in trouble for that. And so when. When I realized that you weren't in trouble, like, when I wasn't in trouble, you weren't getting me in trouble, that you really just wanted to talk about it. It was almost this moment of, like, shock. Like, I was like, oh, that's not what's happening. Okay. I was on the defensive now I gotta, like, figure out how I'm gonna do this. And at the time, I still wasn't confident enough. Like, I couldn't say, yeah, I'm gay, like, yeah, like, like, I could now like it. I couldn't utter the word. And I was so scared. And I was so scared I was gonna get a negative reaction because I had in the past. And it, like, was. I've just heard such terrible stories. And, you know, you asked me, and I don't remember the exact words, but it was something along the lines of, like, do you think that you could be attracted to girls? Like, do you think that's even a possibility? Cause I was so just, like. But, you know, and you asked me that, and I was like, I don't know. Like, that was. I think my response was, I maybe, like, I've thought about it, and it was really unsure, and I really had a hard time. Like, even being, like, I couldn't say I was, like, at that time, it just wasn't gonna happen. And, you know, your response to me was like, okay, well, wait, I'm gonna think about it. I'm gonna do some research. You know, we're gonna talk about it again. And I just, like, I really. And from my perspective, I don't call that my coming out, because I. In my head, I didn't come out. I, like, I wasn't true to myself. I was so unsure. I, you know, was on this defensive. Like, I didn't know what was gonna happen. I still was so scared. And I had this. I don't know why, but I had this thought in my head that I was gonna get. I was so convinced I was gonna be in so much trouble that. That I wasn't even open to the idea that I wasn't gonna get in trouble. So I was always on the defensive.

[21:16] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: You don't call it, you're coming out because you didn't use the words I'm gay or I'm queer.

[21:20] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: I didn't, like, confidently say, I'm gay, like, I'm queer.

[21:23] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: But I think it was that conversation that for sure started the process.

[21:28] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Yeah, it started that. I mean, for me, it was like that. Like, okay, now I gotta. Now I gotta start getting. I gotta be able to say it, and I gotta be able to actually come out. So I think it was, like, two months later, maybe a month and a half, that we were sitting, actually, in my therapist's office, and I had kind of called this meeting. I'd kind of been like, mom and dad, you're coming to therapy with me. We're gonna all get together. I didn't tell you why. I just said, you have to come talk to us, and I'm sure and you'll share your perspective, but I'm sure there was some amount of, like, okay, I kind of know what's about to happen. But, you know, we sat down, and I remember, like, I was in this chair, which I now still go sit in, and I think about this moment all the time. But, you know, I was in this chair, and I finally said, like, mom, dad, I'm gay. And it literally was, like, months and months of therapy to get to that point. So I could just say, mom, dad, I'm gay. It was months and months of, like, rehearsing it and working it out and, like, having art therapist give me practice, like, responses and responding to that. And, like, it was so much work and time and effort and, like, years of battling that made it to this moment. And it all, like, I could feel it. Like, it felt like you took a 50 pound weight off my back. And, like, all of this, like, beautifulness and just, like, freedom, like, was pouring out of me. And, you know, I know that, like, that was a hard moment in and of itself. And it started, I think, this beautiful journey, but for me, it was such a beautiful moment of. There's one point that I never thought I would ever utter these words that I would be so, like, there's one point that I was so scared of even uttering these words that I thought I was gonna die because of it, and now I'm shouting it out to the world. It felt like. And so.

[23:09] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: And from your perspective, what was our.

[23:11] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Reaction during this conversation? I think, well, I knew you had already kind of known, so I think for you, it was mostly just like, okay, now it's for sure. Like, you've come out, like, now we're gonna. Like, now we're gonna, you know, now we're gonna. I don't like the word deal with it, but I feel like that's the best word to use. Like, we're gonna deal with it now, and we're gonna, you know, talk about it and work through it and figure it out as a family. Like, that's what I felt. Your reaction was, okay, like, now it's official. You've told me. Like, thank you for telling me, and now it's a. Now it's time to, you know, work with that. And I I did, you know, I did know that there was some level of, like, grief for, or, like, pain when I first came out, coming from both you and mom. I think I felt it more from mom, more of that, like, emotional, like, oh, I'm like, you know, grieving, which, you know, now I know that, like, in going and picking apart our story. Right. Like, I think one of the things is, like, I saw so much grief coming from you and mom within the next coming, like, six months, that it was so hard. Like, there are so many moments I was like, why am I doing this?

[24:20] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: Well, we feel like we knew, however things worked out, it wouldn't be an easy path.

[24:24] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Yeah.

[24:25] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: For you. Right. And for the family. We knew that it would be fine, but it wouldn't be an easy path. And I think there was some degree of sadness.

[24:33] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Yeah. Which makes sense.

[24:34] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: Or concern.

[24:34] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Yeah.

[24:35] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: But go ahead and ask me now my perspective on that. I want to tell you my take.

[24:40] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: So, like, tell me a little bit about your perspective. I want to know a little bit about before. Like, before I had come out, and you kind of touched on a little bit, like, what you saw in me and how you were feeling about it and then that coming out process.

[24:53] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: Well, I remember that your mom found a video or something of two girls kissing, and she brought it up to me, and I, for the first time, thought, oh, I wonder if that could be a reality. And maybe that could be explaining why Nicole's obviously not happy that she's struggling emotionally. So we were driving home from a soccer practice, like, we had done, I don't know, 732 times up till that point in your life. And we were on the way home, we were stuck in traffic, and I thought this might be a decent time to talk to Nicole. She's in a good mood. She's talkative. She's talking to me. And so I asked you, and I think I said something like, have you ever wondered if maybe you could be attracted to. To girls instead of boys? And you said, yeah, I've wondered that. And, yes, I think I could be attracted to girls. And from there, Nicole, I was just overwhelmed with this feeling of, this is one of those moments of truth in life, that what happens right now in this car over the next few minutes could determine whether my daughter and I have a relationship for the next 50 years. And they could determine her mental health, and they could determine what our family looks like and what. Whether Nicole's. And I just became overwhelmed with an instant knowledge that that was a pivotal, critical moment. And so I remember saying to you, Nicole, thanks for sharing that. I can tell that took a lot of courage on your part to say that to me. And it occurs to me that I only get one chance to get this right, and I don't want to blow it. I don't want to mess up. I don't want to say the wrong thing. I really, really, really want to do this right. I want to get it right. And I asked you if I could have some time. And you said, of course. I think you were relieved not to talk about it anymore. And I went home, and I don't know if I remember how long until we talked again, but I do remember reading tens of thousands of pages of material as fast as I could. I stayed up all night, and I read and studied and read and studied, and what do I need to know? And I became embarrassed at how woefully under read and uninformed I was on this subject. And I consider myself a pretty educated person. And I like to read. I like to study. I like to learn about things. And I thought I had some basic understanding. I realized I didn't. And one of the things that I read over and over and over and over again was, if this happens and you're a parent and this happens to your child, the first thing you should do is save your child's life. Number one, save their life. Number one, give them statements of affirmation and let them know unequivocally that you're with them because you have to save their life. And I thought, naively at the time, I thought, well, that's ridiculous. I can tell Nicole's not happy. I can tell she's struggling, but there's no way she's suicidal. I mean, she's being raised in a, in the quintessential loving home environment. There's no way she's suicidal. And so you and I talked, and I don't remember exactly how long it was, but I remember in this conversation, I expressed my love to you and just said, it's going to be fine. We're going to figure this out. We're with you. We're okay with it. I'm okay with this. I'm okay. And it's. And you're going to be okay. And we're worth you no matter what. We love you no matter what. And we had a, a really good conversation. And at the end of that conversation, as almost as an aside or an afterthought, I remember saying, oh, hey, I'm supposed to ask you, because I read this, you haven't really ever considered hurting yourself or ever considered committing suicide over this. And I remember you looked at me and you don't cry very often, and you got tears in your eyes and you said, yeah, dad, I've considered killing myself every single day for the last year and a half.

[28:51] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Some days, every minute, every hour.

[28:53] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: Yeah. And some days I go to bed at night and I think, well, I lived through today, but I'm not sure I want to be here to go to bed tomorrow night. And I remember just instantly feeling tapped into that pain and feeling so bad that you had been experiencing that without us or without anybody, that you are all on your own. And so I said, well, this is going to be maybe an awkward process on our side, but we're going to figure it out together and just know that no matter what, no matter what, we're with you. You have our love, you have our support, and we're in this together. We want to try to do this together. And then from there, we got some things right, we got some things wrong. And we kind of went on, embarked on a journey, I think, together as your parents and as family to try to navigate that process the best we could. And so I know we're running short on time, but just quickly, if you could articulate maybe just one or two things quickly of things we got wrong and maybe one thing we got wrong and one thing we got right after that coming out happened, maybe you could share your perspective on that.

[30:09] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: I think. I mean, the biggest thing, and I tell people this all the time, and I will say probably for the rest of my life, the biggest blessing. The biggest deal to me was just the effort. The fact that you, mom, my siblings, it was no question in your minds, no matter what it would take, we would get there. It may be a hard journey. There's going to be mistakes made on both ends, and there were, and that's part of it. But at the end of the day, like, we got there, and I think seeing that even from the very beginning, like, even when, at moments where, like, I didn't feel like there was hope or like, that we could ever get to where we are today, like, I saw that there was so much effort and love and support coming from you and mom, and just the fact that I never, ever had to worry about being loved. Like, you know, there were. There were days that sometimes I had to worry about the specifics of the journey and how things would pan out and all of that. And, you know, that was hard. But just the fact that I knew you loved me and I knew everything was going to be okay because you were willing to always put in that effort and fight. And, like, that's what gave me that motivation, to also put in the effort and fight. And I think, like, from going for so long feeling so alone and, like, the scariest thing in the world was to tell you, to just knowing that it's more than okay. And, like, I think most people have an experience where they tell their friends before their parents. And my experience was kind of opposite. Like, I told you and mom before, besides a few exceptions, before most of my friends, and that was because I really, like, I mean, I think that was the hardest thing for me, but it was also, like, the biggest deal for me. Like, I. I wanted you to know, and I wanted you to be a part of that journey. And it was so relieving to see that you also wanted to be a part of it and showed that. And so I think, for me, there's a lot of specifics that prove that point. But overall, the biggest thing was that you loved me and you were willing to fight for that.

[32:10] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: Thank you. What do you wish we would have done differently?

[32:14] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: I think the biggest thing for me is, especially in the beginning, it was a lot. And, I mean, looking back, 100% understand, like, the line of logic and how you. Why you responded and why everything happened the way it did. But, you know, as a kid, I had no grasp of what was happening or why it was happening. And I think there is this, you know, especially with me leaving the Lds church, of the part of it, I think that that was the biggest thing, and that I think with that struggle and, like, feeling like you would never. Like, you wouldn't let go of. That was the hardest part for me. And, like, feeling, like I had almost destroyed this perfect family. I think, like, that was a constant feeling, and that was, like, a journey that we went on for probably about a year, where we, like, were constantly, like, worried about that and trying to figure it out and, like, where everyone would fall. So I think going back, like, I don't think I would regret the way everything happened, but I think that was the hardest part for me, was just seeing the way that, like, sometimes I felt like a. Like a burden, or sometimes I felt like I was ruining this perfect family.

[33:20] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: We got there eventually, where we supported you transitioning out of church, but it took us longer than it should have been.

[33:25] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Yeah, probably about a year. And that was probably the hardest part for me. But now I want to know, like, from your perspective, what was. What do you think you did right? And if you could, like, what do you think you're.

[33:36] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: Well, what I'd rather talk about is what you did right and wrong. Is that okay?

[33:39] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Sure. Since you gave that perspective.

[33:41] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: Well, you did everything right. Everything right, except just one thing. And that is that what keeps me awake at night right now. The thought that I still have all the time and I wake up in the middle of the night is the thought that you went through the kind of pain and confusion and emotional turmoil that you went through without us, and that we could have lost you without even knowing why, without even having the possibility of helping. And I just. So I wish that. I wish that you would have come to us before I understand why you didn't. I get it. You were an impossible situation. But I wish that you would have come to us earlier so that we could have helped and been involved in that earlier, and maybe. Maybe we could have saved you some of those thoughts of self harm or suicide. Maybe we could have saved you some pain that you went through all on your own. Or at least we could have been there to hold your hand while you did it. Went through it. Or we could have been there to go through that pain with you.

[34:52] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Yeah.

[34:52] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: And I just. I wish that we would have known sooner. That's it. I think everything else, you did perfectly, and you did exactly right. Except just that.

[35:00] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Thank you.

[35:02] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: So, Nicole, we're about out of time, but let me just ask you one final question, and that is, if you could say anything to a 13 year old or 14 year old boy or girl or somebody who's out there, who is in the same situation that you were in when you were 13, 1415. If you could just name one thing that you wish they knew or understood in the way that you know or understand it now, what would that one thing be?

[35:29] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: I think. I mean, it's easy. It's. You're not alone. There's millions. There's thousands and millions of people. There's people around you, people you walk past in the hallways at school you don't even know about that are going through the same thing that you are. Like, you're not alone. And it's gonna be okay. And there's so much beauty to being yourself. And it's sometimes a struggle, but there's so much beauty to it. And I just urge you to fight for that, to be yourself. And, of course, when it's safe. But I think the other thing, I think the biggest message for me, I think, from our experience, is to parents. You know, I tell people all the time, I have the best parents in the entire world. Like, I think about it. I think about it all the time, like, you and mom, like, I am so fortunate and so blessed to have two amazing, amazing, amazing, amazing people behind me. And so, you know, I sometimes, like, even go, like, wow. Like, I. What makes me so special? I have deans of amazing parents who have been behind me. There's so many people who don't even have. That don't even have support from their parents. And I think my message to parents is, you know, one, love your kids. Support your kid, you know, no matter what, no matter what they're going through. Like, your job as a parent is to love and support them for who they are, exactly who they are, and not who you want them to be, not who your values and your beliefs think that they should be who they are. And I think even you and mom, who I think are the most incredible parents who are so amazing. And I could go on and on. I could spend a whole 40 minutes just talking about how amazing you and mom are. Even you and mom. And this is mostly just because I think I'm so good at hiding it. But you and mom didn't even know for so long that I was doing so bad. And I think I would just urge parents to realize that there's a lot that you don't know. And you may think you know a lot about your kid, and you may think you know everything that's going on, but, you know, it's. It's really easy to hide that, to hide not doing well. And so I would urge them to give them that space, to share that. So now I want to ask you, you know, that same question of, like, what would you share to a parent who maybe suspects their kid is queer or kid who just came out as.

[37:53] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: Parents unintentionally, we so often send messages to our kids that our love is conditional or that our love and support might be based on them making certain decisions or being in a certain way or doing a certain thing. I love you, but I only love you if. Right. And we sometimes do that. Bye. Making comments about other people, what they're doing, and our kids hear those and go, oh, wait a minute. Well, if they said this about someone else, then they would think the same thing about me. And so I think if I could say anything to parents, it's just every chance you get, every way that you can give statements of unequivocal love to your children in every way possible, you know, from the time that they're little, it doesn't. I hope one day you'll grow up to do something like this, but if you don't, it doesn't matter. I'll still love you just the same. And even telling them from the time they're little. Yeah, it wouldn't matter to me if you were gay or queer or lesbian or bi or trans or anything. It wouldn't matter. I'd love you just the same. It won't matter to me what you decide to do for a living, because I'll love you the same regardless. So often we don't mean to, but we send mixed messages to our kids. And I think we instill a fear or an anxiety or an insecurity in our children that our love might be conditioned on something, and especially on this. And so I would just say to parents, in every way, you can express your unequivocal and unconditional and priceless love to your children so that they know that you're a safe place for them. Whether they're queer or with whatever they're worried about or struggling with that they know they have a safe place to come, and that's it. Well, Nicole, thank you very much for being willing to sit down with me. And I know these are hard questions to answer, and it's emotional, mostly for me. So thanks for being willing to do it.

[39:54] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Yeah, thank you.

[39:55] MICHAEL OSTERMILLER: And thanks for being patient with your mom and me as we struggle through parenthood and figure it out as we go.

[40:01] NICOLE OSTERMILLER: Always.