Michael Payne + Jim Hassmer

00:00 I'm Michael Payne. I grew up in the Charlottesville area, and I'm still in Charlottesville today.

00:08 I'm Jim Hassmer. I grew up in Alexandria, Virginia, northern Virginia, and been in Charlottesville for about 18 years now. Okay.

00:26 And if you could each read one another's bio, we'll start with Michael. Sure. Greetings. I grew up in northern Virginia in the turbulent sixties, married 42 years with two grown children. I'm retired from 30 years United Methodist pastoring and now work part time recruiting volunteers to rescue nutritious food from being wasted and transporting it to low income food. Insecure persons or groups serving them. I teach beginner square dancing at the senior center. Increasing justice and well being for the many lower income folk worldwide is very important in living sustainably.

01:09 Okay, so I'm Jim Hassmer and Michael's bio city counselor from Charlottesville. Care about affordable housing and climate change. Okay.

01:27 And you can both go ahead. If there's any questions of interest, feel free to read them out. Or if there's anything that strikes you about your partner's bio, feel free to ask. Turbulent sixties, what was going on in Alexandria, Virginia?

01:45 Well, if you've seen the movie remember the titans, that was Alexandria, Virginia, when integration was just beginning. Actually went to George Washington High School, which was the high school that was first integrated before TC Williams was completed and occupied. So that's what was going on. Just changed from whites only and colored only water fountains and restrooms and the public buildings to getting rid of all that terrible stuff.

02:31 Yeah. What was the attitude of most of the community like? Because I know northern Virginia is just so different today, but I guess at that time, southwest Virginia had more people than northern Virginia. This was still like a white, racist, southern Democrat state.

02:52 Well, I say a large part of it was just a lack of contact between the two races due to their generations of prejudice and white supremacy separating themselves from the blacks. And the other basic thing is whites don't want to give up their status, their wealth, their control of politics. And so any threat to that from blacks or any other group was a threat that made them uncomfortable.

03:43 How do you visit Alexandria? Like, frequently, or how long did you live in northern Virginia?

03:50 I lived up there till I was 18, graduated from high school, went to Rochester, New York, for college, and then Pasadena, California, for seminary school, and then back to Virginia for various places around Virginia for 30 years in ministry.

04:15 What was it that led you to pursue seminary school?

04:23 Well, actually start out thinking I'd be a math teacher and have a positive influence on students. That way. And then I got a college and ran into higher level math at college, and that was a bit above me. So that led me to look for alternative ways to have passive influence on folks. And seminary and ministry seemed to be. I had had some previous experience as a teen speaker, preacher kind of thing. So that was a reason, background for going in that direction.

05:11 You said you ministered throughout Virginia, like, different places.

05:18 So eastern Shore, five years, Staunton three years, Shenandoah Valley for three years, Richmond area, four years, and then Charlottesville area, six years, and Covington way out west, two years.

05:52 Did you have a least favorite place where you were at in Virginia?

06:00 Probably Danville, because of its conservative and prejudice, as well as its economic poverty was increasing back then. Furniture factories were losing to companies moving overseas.

06:25 Is that in the eighties or.

06:29 Danville was early nineties, 89 to 92.

06:38 Yeah, it's interesting because I guess, you know, I guess, like a lot of communities, that deindustrialization started in the eighties and nineties, but even today, Danville hasn't really recovered economically. Of course, now they want to get, like, a big casino in there. They think they'll turn it around, but I don't know what that'll really accomplish. If I can interject for a moment, if you would both want to go over anything about your political belief system that you feel is particularly important, especially since, Michael, I know you didn't get the time to outline that as much in your bias or anything.

07:30 Well, let me throw in a question before we do that, and that's in relation to your bio, Michael, where you said you care about affordable housing. And one of my interest is in affordable housing. And the specific question is what metrics there are available on the supply and the demand for affordable housing in Charlottesville. And a follow up question is, has there been any progress measured by those metrics in the past decade?

08:14 Yeah. Well, the demand side, I think, is a trickier to get, like, a specific metric. But on the supply end, you can look at number of new units constructed. You can look at number of permits approved. So housing units in a pipeline, and you could also look at the number of specifically affordable units constructed that have some kind of subsidy for people who are zero to 30% of area mean income or really even zero to 60% of area mean income, which could be a family making 50, $60,000 a year as a household at the higher end. And so you can look at those supply metrics and see that mix of how much is being built for specific income levels, how much total housing in general is being built. And over the past decade, I think there's been new affordable housing constructed, and there's a lot of new affordable housing construction that's underway, but not yet online. But overall supply hasn't increased that much. And I don't think we know the specific number of, if you perfectly match how many people want to live within city limits and the housing units, what the demand is. But it clearly is not even close to what the demand is. So over the past decade, I think we've just seen the trend wherever more and more people want to live in Charlottesville and people who have the income to do so rent or purchase houses, and people who can't afford to move out into surrounding counties, and increasingly, not even Albemarle, but Buckingham, Nelson, Fluvanna. And that trend, I don't think, is really reversed. So if you look at metrics of the average income level of the city, one metric, you know, the percentage of the city that is black, both of those every year, continue to decrease. So that trend hasn't reversed in terms of gentrification and displacement.

10:43 On the one hand, I feel like it's the responsibility of local governments to make progress in equity towards those disadvantaged for historical reasons. And on the other hand, I understand that the local governments are handicapped by just the structure of voters and voters that have money versus voters, or she don't. Well, and the current situation? Well, there are a lot of factors.

11:27 As far as housing goes well, and I think in the past couple years, there have been some significant positive changes. The city created and adopted an affordable housing plan, which called for $10 million a year invested in affordable housing. In the past two years, it's been at $10 million, or a little bit more than that. In total investment, there's redevelopment and expansion of public housing, whereas to my knowledge, every other locality in Virginia is tearing down and privatizing their public housing. And Charlottesville went a total opposite route. You've got a number of big projects, some of which have broken ground, new public housing on South First street, groundbreaking at Friendship court to expand that, and there's been investment in some big affordable housing projects on Park street. It's not Charlottesville city limits, but now tomorrow you have habitat doing Southwood, which is really big. So there's those things. The question is, is it enough to completely reverse the macroeconomic trends which are driving gentrification displacement? I think because the university is located here, because with the digital economy, more people can move to small towns and work remotely and want to do so. So I think it's making a positive impact. But, you know, I don't. I quite frankly, I don't know if local. I think local governments have the power and money to stem the bleeding some. But without legal changes in money at the state and federal level, I don't know if localities on their own can completely solve all of it. How would you define your relationship with the community in Charlottesville, you, as a city council person, and then being a religious leader within the community? And how have your experiences in Charlottesville shape your beliefs over time? Well, I guess, you know, as a city counselor, I guess I see my relationship with the community being a lot of listening and trying to be out at events and talking with people and just really trying to listen and hear from people what specific issues are, what concerns people have and seeing what, if anything, can we do at local government level to try to address that? And there's really big questions like affordable housing and economic inequality, the racial wealth gap, job opportunities. But there's also a lot of really small, day to day constituent services stuff. Someone is having an issue with a permit or they have an idea for. We should have a crosswalk at this intersection, or, you know, we need debris pickup at this street. And it's a lot of connecting people with the relevant resources or staff to address those smaller things. But as city councilors, I mean, we're also just community members. You know, on a busy week, city council could take up, you know, 30 plus hours, but some weeks it's less. So it's still a part time job, technically. You know, we're making $18,000 a year, the big bucks, for being on council. So, I mean, we're also just part of the community, and we experience the same issues that some community members face with affordable housing or, you know, our public transportation system. Inequality in our community. So, you know, we're not entirely separate. But it's kind of a weird thing because I realized, you know, once you're in that position, to a lot of people, you almost become like a symbol. It's like you're not a real person. You're like an avatar of government at large. So you have a lot of people who are, you know, maybe will express anger to you or disappointment to you, and you just got to realize that, you know, you just gotta. You take it. You're in that position. And sometimes it's really about government at large, not you specifically.

16:02 As part of my relationship, I live outside city limits, close to Albemarle High School. So I got sort of divided loyalties between the city and the county. I'm involved with the Charlottesville clergy collective, and we have a few folks from outside the city, but primarily in the city, concerned about the city issues. I'm a member of the Charlottesville Albemarle NAACP, and so they have concerns both with city and county. And, of course, my part time work as Charles Valerie gleaning coordinator for the society St. Andrew, a national nonprofit hunger relief agency. I'm engaging and recruiting volunteers to rescue food from being wasted, and so I've been engaged in distributing the friendship port and midway Manor and Crescent halls, and on our own, and Piedmont House and Salvation army and Woods Edge. I had contact, direct contact with those places of poverty and need, and a member of the center, formerly senior center, and that's wealthier group of people for the most part. And so I have connections in that relationship, living a nice little subdivision with cul de sacs and, I guess, moderate income housing there. So contact with that level of folks right around.

18:29 Yeah. And I think for most people, Charlottesville and Albemarle are really just one community. You know, they're technically different governments, but if you live in the urban ring in Albemarle county, or further out in Albemarle county, and drive in every day to work at UVA or service sector or wherever, you don't really care about the boundary distinctions, and every decision both localities make, you know, ends up impacting you in some way.

19:00 His main issue is just voting. You can only vote for one of the two governments, and yet both of them impact the quality of living in the area. And so I want to address city issues, but I know I'm not an official resident and don't have quite the same standing.

19:26 Yeah, it's interesting. I've always wondered about Charlottesville. City government gets way more attention and energy than Albemarle ever does. And I guess maybe it's Charlottesville's more compact, maybe so it feels like a civic center. We certainly generate a lot more drama than Albemarle county does, and that maybe attracts people to pay attention. But, you know, an average council meeting will have every public speaker slot filled up, and if not all of them, you know, ten. And there's a lot of supervisors meetings where maybe no one will speak on an item. Nobody speaks at all. And it's interesting, you know, I've wondered about what is it that makes Albemarle seem to get less attention and viewed less as a site of civic action? And sometimes I think they get off the hook too easy. Because of that, for example, we're spending $10 million a year on affordable housing and got a lot of pressure for that. And people pressured Albemarle, and they did create a $5 million fund, but they're, like, four or five times our size, and they're investing half of what the city is. So, yeah, I mean, and that speaks to it. But, like, for most people, you don't care what locality is investing in housing. You just need it all over the place.

21:00 One of the questions was about August 2017, and that certainly jolted me in terms of awareness of the disparities and tension and division sort of under the surface that surfaced a bit there August of 2017. And, of course, the whole vinegar Hill gentrification business kind of came out more after August 2017. Another concern, of course, is with UVA and its original history with enslavement, and it's ever increasing utilization of land in the area for housing for students, and the impact that has on affordable housing for non students, and the whole issue of universities not paying taxes. So they have certain level of wealth that could make a difference to the quality of living in the local people, but doesn't, because they're not forced to. But I'm appreciative of the improvements UVA has made over the past 510 years.

22:55 Yeah, and when it. Yeah, and when it comes to UVA, their annual operating budget is around $2 billion. The entire city government's operating budget is around 200 million. So, you know, they just have so much more wealth and power than even local government to do things. And everything they do affects. Yeah, and that's separate from their endowment, which I think is around 14 billion, maybe. And over the course of the pandemic, it grew 30%. And like you said, they pay no property taxes, and if they paid the same rate as everyone else, I think it would be like twelve to $15 million a year just to the city. That doesn't even count all the properties in Albemarle, which would be enough to completely fund the affordable housing strategy. So, you know, Uva's relationship with the community is just so critical, because in a lot of ways, it's like its own government, kind of. It is, yeah. That's for the, you know, the summer of 2017. You know, I don't know. On one hand, it's very. To me, it's a very personalized. I was. I was there on August 12, and it had been paying attention that whole summer.

24:25 So where exactly were you on August? Well.

24:30 On Water street, getting ready to turn on to Fourth street when the terrorist attack happened. I wasn't hit. I wasn't right on the street, but sort of saw the impact and aftermath. You know, it's very after the violence at Market Square. Yeah. And I had showed up with counter protesters that afternoon, and by the time we got there, I think there had already been an unlawful assembly declared at the park. And afterwards, there was like a marsh that was almost, like, celebratory because the, you know, the neo Nazi and alt right people had basically been dispersed and left. So that was when the attack occurred. And so part of it is very, you know, just personal and individualized to the point of, like, there's still a lot of people who are there who still have unpaid medical bills, aren't able to work, and just that impact on the community that's still there. But more broadly, you know, I had been involved in organizing, especially after the election in 2016, with groups like indivisible Charlottesville and Charlottesville DSA. And I think everything that happened that summer, I think, definitely created more attention to what can be done locally, because more broadly, I think it made a lot more people pay attention to local issues and see as outcome of it what are the tensions and inequalities that have been papered over in the narrative of Charlottesville as, like, the number one place to live or number one place to retiree that we could try to change and make better? And, you know, that was obviously a huge part of it, and then just getting involved in being on council. And it sort of still, I think, reverberates throughout the city that summer and its impacts and how people trust, or more accurately, don't trust local government. And seeing, I think, a lot of changes has happened. There's been a lot of awareness, but how difficult and how long of a slog it's really going to be to try to make some more fundamental differences in the city.

27:53 I'd be interested in what your goals are for city council for the next nice year.

28:01 Well, the next year, I think there's specific. We're working on the rewrite of the city's zoning code, which hopefully will be done within a year. And that's a huge goal to get that done and have it have inclusionary zoning to require affordable units in developments if they're over a certain height or density, as well as just allow for the construction of more affordable apartments, duplexes, triplexes that currently aren't allowed under our zoning code. And part of the problem, and that alone isn't going to fix the whole problem, but it's necessary and important. We're working on the climate action plan. So I think in the next year, finalizing that and having it attached to specific deliverables and dollar amounts for the city's budget will be important. And hopefully we'll be able to start implementing all of our affordable housing strategy in a more systematic way within the next year and see the creation of a land bank. Hopefully, in the next month, we'll get collective bargaining done to allow that for our city employees, which I think will be huge, not just for employees, but the regional economy, to establish a base of unionization in collective bargaining for the first time. The final thing is we have a police civilian oversight board, which has had a lot of controversy, you know, been a subject of a lot of debate. But we did approve a board that has subpoena power, investigatory power. Most expansive power is in the state of Virginia. But we need to really get it off the ground and fully running so it can really start taking on cases and exercising its powers. So there's some stuff we just have to finalize with the board operating procedures, just nuts and bolts stuff to really get it off the ground. So those are probably the big things, but all of those, you know, we'll be busy.

30:34 I guess. Another issue of concern is the large amount of turnover and leadership positions in the city, from police department to city manager to all the other ones where there's been so much transition that obviously cut back on the effectiveness of the government.

31:12 Yeah, and that's really been the biggest issue. I started council in January 2020, and since January 2020, we've been through four different city managers. Five if you count a candidate that accepted the job but never even quit before he even started. And then a six, if you count a city manager recruitment firm that backed out. Cause they said the city's too dysfunctional to even find you a city manager candidate. So, I mean, it's been tough in the most discouraging part, because in that environment, you're not really getting a lot done. So you're dealing with a lot of drama, a lot of time without a whole lot getting done. And, like, beyond just the city managers, there were over 20. And again, just the time I've been on council, over 20, like, senior level department heads who left the city from basically every department you could think of, city attorney, the IT chief, even left public works, parks and rec, Department of social services, Department of Human Services, just across the board. So, I mean, yeah, and the thing is, we're a city manager form of government, so the city manager is kind of like the CEO who runs things day to day. The council is kind of like the board who sets the policy direction, but they implement. So if you don't have a city manager or staff, you're just not going to be able to really do much. But I think, you know, I think it's settled a little bit. A lot of the department heads are starting to get filled. We had to rely on a firm to provide, like, interim city manager services, but I think it's been. It's allowed us to still make progress on stuff and just create enough stability to start filling out vacancies in the city manager's office. The search is going on right now for our next chief of police. Finally, we finally got an HR director after, like, over a year. So it's all, like, very in the weeds stuff that a lot of people, you know, their eyes may glaze over. You start talking about department heads, the city government, but the impact is on people day to day in terms of, like, how many are bike lanes getting built? Is the bus system effective? Do we have enough school bus drivers? Can we get collective bargaining done? Get a police civilian oversight board fully up and running, implement the affordable housing strategy, get affordable housing units built? It's all part of that. So, I mean, but there's no question it's been the biggest problem I think, the city has faced. But I think the trajectory is better than it's been any time since I've been on council. And hopefully, once the chief of police is done, the process for hiring a city manager happen, and we'll just be able to do more, because there's no shortage of problems in Charlottesville.

34:34 Do you have any thoughts about ways to improve the quality of living for the lowest, for the folks on the bottom? And you might say, aside from city government.

34:57 Yeah, I mean, I guess the way I've thought about it is at a high level. The issue in Charlottesville, like in a lot of cities, in every college town, I think, is economic inequality, where you have a very wealthy, highly educated upper class, and you have a working class that provides the food and services and day to day needs of that highly educated professional class. But there's not really much of a middle class, and there's not a whole lot of opportunities in Charlottesville for someone from a working class background to build wealth, become a business owner, buy a home if their family doesn't own a home that they inherit. And so I feel like what's needed is a strategy for community wealth building that opens up those opportunities to more people. And I think it's really an across the board thing. Unionization and collective bargaining is part of it. Opportunities for job training to enter into our tech industry, our renewable energy industry, building housing so people can afford to buy a home, building rentals so people can afford to even rent in the city and not need to, you know, drive an hour plus to get into work every day. And I think community land trusts, which is a model of affordable housing, I think would be key to that. The work of our nonprofit sector, but just all kind of different initiatives from the city, but also in the community for volunteering, with nonprofits being part of community initiatives, because everybody, I think, has a role in fixing this problem across our country, really, Charlottesville is just one city dealing with this problem. And even stuff like groups like the literacy volunteers who provide one on one tutoring for kids and getting in at that early level to reverse our achievement gap in the city. But I don't know. I mean, it's just so many different things. There's not really one solution. But I think if it was done in a more systematic way, where the community almost has a strategy for community wealth building, so it's less people operating in silos and more building and infrastructure of land trusts, community development corporations, co ops, community gardens. And we have a lot of those assets, but sometimes they're maybe too siloed or in their own world to switch. I mean, you talked about the being on committee at the. The center at Belvedere, right? What are some of the stuff they're working on and some of the problems you see that the center needs to change? Because I remember just going around things at the city. I mean, younger people might forget about it, but, I mean, it's really like a critical civic institution in our city that does a ton of stuff, like, every single day. And I feel like younger people sleep on how important it is, and whatever changes there could be pretty impactful.

38:39 Well, to some extent, it's similar to the situation of the whole city, county area that going back to civil war, basically, and the wealth, power, all the disparity, education, healthcare disparities. The membership of the center were the same people that lived in the community that had that ongoing structure, racism. And so whether it's more or less intentional, cassette wasn't very diverse. But I am excited by its efforts and progress over the last two years, in particular, in terms of, number one, focusing on the issue, and number two, developing a 25 point plan for making the necessary improvements in diversity, and then some of the implementation of that that's already started. And I'm grateful to be a part of that. I'm on the diversity equity inclusion committee, which is more programming, and on the racial equity special committee that developed a 25 point plan, and so was more involved with the sort of organizational level of the center and the process processes that it put in place to decrease the bias and the lack of diversity. So one of the main challenges is transportation, and I know the center has been in dialogue with the city and the county to try and improve that and Covid and everything else hasn't. helped

41:10 Yeah. When you were pastoring in different localities in Virginia, were you individually or were the churches you were part of involved in local political issues or local, just community issues in general and kind of active? I'm just curious what kind of, you know, what kind of stuff, you know, was being fought and changing in these different areas in Virginia throughout, you know.

41:47 From my situation, for a variety of reasons, I was in smaller churches for the whole 30 years, and smaller churches tend to be more conservative, and so that's kind of where that was at. I. In one location, well, Eastern Shore, I engaged one of my two churches that I had in interracial Thanksgiving celebration for the first time, and that was a bit rocky. And the other church wouldn't have anything to do with that kind of interracial interaction. Even one time as a pastor, there wasn't a whole lot that I could do to change those attitudes.

43:02 Yeah. And would you have a lot of, like, ideological, political differences within different members of the church, or was it sort of. A lot of them were just sort of uniformly conservative and didn't want to confront issues of segregation or inequality in the community. They're a part of.

43:30 I'd say, like, in most churches, there is a variety. Well, actually, united Methodists maybe have a little more variety within their churches as far as political views go. It's in general, more liberal denomination, and so as opposed to, like, some of the Baptists that are really narrow in their membership.

44:09 Yeah. Would you ever, like. Yeah, I'm just interested, you know, it's a tough divide and situation to try to navigate, I guess. You know, you're a pastor of a congregation who maybe you disagree with, or there's a big split within the congregation itself and how that's managed and even just sort of. Yeah. Navigated.

44:40 Yeah. Well, I would preach on it from time to time, and that probably contributed to my being moved more often than some pastors were. I was engaged in the. The board of church and Society of the conference as a district coordinator, and going to some of the statewide meetings of that board. So that was kind of how I fed my passion and concern for social justice. So it was kind of just educating myself through those connections without being able to implement a whole lot of it in the churches I served.

45:49 Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, I feel like of people of my generation and younger, I'm 29, so pretty, pretty young. You look at the data on, like, church membership, church attendance, like, self reported religiosity, and it certainly decreased a ton. And I wonder how much of it is. There's this sense that the institutional churches of different denominations weren't involved on important political or social issues going on in the past or within their lifetimes, or if they were involved, they were perceived to be primarily focused on opposing gay marriage or, you know, other social issues. And of course, that's never been the full story. Obviously, the civil rights movement and plenty of activism beyond even the sixties, you know, had a huge base of religious leaders involved of all different denominations and faiths. And here in Charlottesville, you know, I know the clergy collective and many churches have been explicitly engaged in local political and social questions, but, yeah, I don't know.

47:30 Yep, I'm going challenge. Is there any kind of support that you'd like to. Are you receiving from community members as a council member?

47:54 No, I mean, I think just the city connecting with community efforts and nonprofits is critical, and a lot of it is. I think the past two years with the pandemic really eroded a lot of community, because necessity or not, the fact that life was pushed all online, I think, pushed people onto social media platforms, removed in person interaction, and I think a lot of community efforts, community organizations had a lot of drop off and people attending, paying attention. And I think the digital world opened up a space for a lot more division and infighting and conflict. And so I think a lot of it is just trying to rebuild community post the past few years, and that's not a city, it's just community wide thing. And I think it's happening. People have been returning, some more cautiously than others, to in person life and kind of restarting some community efforts and organizing efforts. But I think there's a lot that has to be rebuilt, and I think a lot of damage was done in the community over the past two years in terms of even just mental health, substance abuse, people's economic in a situation. A lot of people who maybe were on the margins lost the final thing, sort of keeping them tethered from losing a home or not relapsing. And so I continue to see a lot of damage in the community from the past few years. And I think all of us just trying to recognize that and get involved will be important. I mean, even just the achievement gap in schools, the impact on kids in terms of attendance, literacy, numeracy, I mean, it's just devastating when you look at the numbers. And that, I think, is the big challenge. And it accelerated all the existing problems our community already had. They're not new. It's just accelerated. Okay, we are beginning to wrap up, but I would like to ask Michael, if you could read aloud the second to last question. Do you ever feel troubled by people with the same beliefs from you, people, you know, your own side of the aisle, and how they communicate those beliefs to other people?

50:50 I do, I guess not. Not so much locally directly, but in the media, you know, folks like Steve Colbert and Pelosi whatever her name is, that I think I agree with politically, but they're much more negative and kind of in a way that I don't think is helpful.

51:36 Yeah, well, and I could just. Locally, I think this is where the biggest infighting and intentions I always see come from. Not people with totally different beliefs, but people who are in the same organization are fighting for the same cause. I don't know. Maybe it's so much of politics as, like, team sports, and maybe it's kind of like a in group out group thing, where if you're seen as deviating from the group, you're part of, you know, you become scapegoated. But the biggest denunciations and attacks I see and experience are always from people who agree on the same issues but disagree over a tactic or disagree with some action taken, especially the past couple years. I feel like I've seen it really accelerated by social media. It would be whatever tensions exist. But I see it lead to a lot of infighting and breakdown of organizations who were doing good stuff or could have achieved more, and they just sort of fall apart because of infighting over ultimately pretty small issues. I guess they call it the narcissism of small differences or something. Okay. And I wanted to give you both the opportunity to ask, are there any final questions that you wanted to ask your partner or anything about one another that surprised you today?

53:25 I appreciate getting to know you, but Michael and I appreciate hearing your positions on things and concerns, and certainly I share them and feel like we're working for the same values and wish you well in your position on the council. Well, yeah.

53:55 Say it was good to get to know you a little bit and do this. It's always interesting to just hear different ways people are getting involved in the community and advocating for things. And especially the experience in pastoring across the state is really. There's just so much packed into that that you can't get to all of it in even close to the time we have. But no.

54:24 Yeah.