Miriam Hossaini and Virginia Anderson

00:00 Hi, Miriam. My name is Virginia. I am 68 years old. Today's date is November 1, 2022. I am recording from my office location in Charlottesville, and my conversations partner name is Miriam Hossaini How do you pronounce your name?

00:19 Hossaini

00:20 Okay.

00:21 Yeah. Hi, Virginia. My name is Miriam Hossaini I'm 22 years old. Today's date is November 1, 2022. And I'm recording in the school of Architecture in Charlottesville, Virginia. And my conversation partner's name is Virginia Anderson

00:39 Wonderful.

00:39 Well, thank you both for the introduction. The first question we always start with is, what made you want to participate in a one small step conversation? I can go first. Well, my studio, my architecture studio professor suggested it to all of us, and I think also having heard, like, the whole, we went through, like, a whole one step workshop earlier in my studio. And it's something, one on ones are something that's semi familiar to me, being a student organizer, but not in this format of people from different sides of things and having more of, like, a curiosity conversation, more than, like, using one on ones for, like, a certain objective, which is normally what I'm used to for organizing.

01:34 That's interesting, Miriam, to hear you talk about your interest coming from the student organizer's point of view, where you're directing the conversations a lot. As a journalist, I obviously direct conversations a lot and have done so for almost 40 years now, where people have to answer my questions all the time, and I'm deciding the tenor of the discussion or the priorities of the discussion. So that's interesting. So that's one thing. The other thing that really interests me and that I'm concerned about is the lack of respectful dialogue in our country and really in the world, but particularly our country right now. And so I just think that this is a great idea. I'm grateful to one small step for doing this, because anything that we can do that helps people to talk and listen, really listen, I guess, more than anything. So that's why I was interested.

02:35 Well, thank you both again for taking that initiative to sign up for a conversation. The first thing we do to kind of introduce you both to each other is have you read out loud the short biography that your partner wrote about themselves. So, Virginia, you'll read Miriam's, and Miriam, you'll read Virginia's. And once you've each taken a moment to read your partner's bio for the next, you know, five or so minutes, if there are immediate questions that you want to follow up on from what they've written, you're welcome to ask those. And then I'll kind of nudge you to go through some of the questions.

03:10 On the sheet, and I'll let you.

03:12 Take it from there.

03:12 So you can choose who reads the.

03:15 Bio first, and then you can move forward from there.

03:23 So I'll read Miriam's bio. Is that. Is that the way it goes? So we read the other's bio? Correct. Okay, so this is Miriam's bio. I grew up in Richmond, Virginia, in a working class home, which is where a lot of my identity is rooted. I quickly realized how different my experiences with trauma have been in comparison to the average well off suburban uva student. I've experienced the loss of numerous loved ones through a variety of circumstances, medical, mental health, drug abuse, etcetera. I know that it did, but I don't know how it shaped me. Definitely not with this word count. I also care about the community from loss.

04:09 And then I'll read Virginia's. I'm a journalist with more than three decades of experience in major newsrooms, including the Atlanta Journal Constitution and the Lexington Herald Leader. Whereas a Pulitzer Prize finalist for specialized reporting for a six part investigative series on shenanigans in the thoroughbred breeding industry, I've written and edited stories on topics ranging from sports to courts, from opioids to open enrollment. I'm the mother of two daughters, a prosecutor and a corporate lawyer. Wow. When I read your thing, I loved all of one. Congratulations for Pulitzer Prize finalists. And being in all these major, I didn't know what to expect, because when I wrote the thing, it was like, oh, like, name things that shaped your experience. But the only examples they gave were, like, loss or, like, sad things, which I guess in my head, I was like, okay, well, I'll be a rule follower, but I like that you wrote about other, like, more success based things that shaped you. But I was interested in. So you're a prosecutor and a corporate lawyer. Is that in conjunction with being a journalist, or is that like something one came before the other? Or, like, how's that in terms of, like, the career path?

05:30 You.

05:30 You've had experience?

05:32 Those are my daughters. Those are my two daughters.

05:35 Oh, your two daughters. That makes more sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

05:39 Exactly. Exactly. Wow. So, actually, it's interesting, Miriam, because I really like what you wrote for a number of reasons. But let me tell you, first of all, one thing I noticed is that you focused on the things in your life that are real, and I focused on things that were professionals. So that I find that interesting for a number of reasons for which I'll come back to. But I wanted to also tell you that there are remarkable similarities between you and me, even though the things that we shared were very different. I grew up, too, in a home of trauma, this incredible addiction history and mental health history. And my father abandoned my mother when she was four months pregnant with their fifth child, and we never saw him again. He just left us. And so those are things that definitely shaped my life. And when I was at the University of Georgia, like you, I mean, it wasn't Uva. You know, Uva is such an elite school, so it's a little different. But there was still the contingent, certainly, of the well to do Atlanta kids and the well to do suburban kids and things. And I had always. It had been a very hardscrabble existence, and so I, too, felt very different. So, anyway, just find it really interesting that you chose to mention that, and I admire you for that. And so, I don't know, it just makes me. I got to ponder that for a few days. It's like, it seemed like I went into this saying, okay, this is what I've done, almost as if I was. I don't know. I wonder if I. I don't know. I got to ponder that. But that's just an initial observation.

07:28 Yeah, no, I feel like, especially with the word count they gave, it's hard to do, like, this holistic of, like, what I came from and what shaped me to do the things that I've done today. So I guess, like, we kind of did. Like, I did the first half and you did the second half. Almost.

07:41 Yeah.

07:42 Like, yeah. Success was, like, I'm. I'm double majoring. Like, I'm doing a lot of student organizing and very happy with all that, and, like, also have, like, a lot of successes I'm proud of, but I wasn't. I guess, like, it almost felt like, I don't know, like, to give background on, like, why I did those things. I was like, I can't even begin to, like, describe, like, what shaped me to do those things that now shape me as a person. So. So we like, the cause and effect of, like, what makes you a person? Kind of, uh. The word count really got me with that one.

08:16 Yeah, it's very interesting. And then also, as I said, I mean, I think it's courageous to talk about that stuff. Probably in my life, I've spent. Well, one thing I discovered, I don't know if you ever went through anything like this, but I was a very well spoken. I was also a student organizer. I was chairperson of a political party at the University of Georgia back in the seventies that promoted gay rights. And, oh, gosh, we were trying to get rid of the playing of Dixie at football games, if you can believe that. They still play Dixie at football games. And so I was a campus activist for sure. And so back in the seventies, back when it was University of Georgia, didn't know the Vietnam war was over. We were so behind. So anyway. Oh, what was I going to say? What, there was a point in bringing all that up? What was it? Oh, yes. So I've been thinking recently, because I'm at an old, much older age now, and I'm thinking back on my life reflecting, and I'm also thinking as I, near the end of my working life, I don't know how much longer I'll work, but, you know, I'm going to be 69 in December, and so I may retire at some point in the next few years.

09:31 So I guess I kind of, I.

09:33 Guess that kind of has me in a reflective mood. And I, too, was wondering, like, how much of my essential self is a caring and compassionate person and how much of it is because I saw so much injustice and pain when I was younger and that then became a part of me. Or did it start with a base and then go more in that direction or, I don't know. I mean, it was. So what do you think? What's been your experience with that? It sounds like you've always been very, because you've been through a lot of, a lot of stuff, too. Oh, I know what I was going to say. Here was the point. Here was, the real point is that people didn't want to hear it. It's like I was attractive, a great student, very active, and people expected me to be in a box that, oh, you know, it's like, oh, but look what all you've got. And it's like, oh, but you don't know what's like when you go home and your mother's drunk and passed out on the floor or you don't have money to get through the week or whatever it is, you know. But, but I found that people didn't want to hear it. So I guess maybe getting back to what I wrote in my bio is I just learned to stop talking about it because people didn't seem to want to hear it.

10:50 You said that that's why you, like, started talking about it, because people didn't want to hear you say you stopped talking about it.

10:55 Stop talking about it. It's like, you know, because I I used to wonder. It's like. It's like, oh, no. I knew that I was different. I knew that my brain worked differently. I knew I had all these addicts in my family, and I knew that there was depression and there was a lot of stuff. I didn't know what the name for it was. I knew something. It's like, I knew as a kid, I can remember thinking, my cells are different. People in my family's cells are different. And yet, if I ever tried to talk about that, it was like, huh, what? You know, they were talking about. Or in college, you know, what. What party they were going to that night? Not. Not necessarily. So I don't know. But how about you tell me about your experience growing up? I want to hear more about yours.

11:39 Yeah. A lot of. I've been lucky enough to have, like, more losses, like, almost not in my nuclear family, but, like, extended family, like, cousins and aunts and uncles. And I think, like, a lot of that also shaped, like our family dynamics are. But I think especially coming to Uva because, like, we have more vocabulary than you probably did, like, in your college experience about talking about, like, home lives and mental health and drug abuse and stuff. Like, it's a little bit more talked about, but it definitely is still, like, seen as taboo or, like, something that doesn't happen to me. Like, people don't. People know, like, the words for it, but they're uncomfortable or don't necessarily know how to react, because it's something that, like, I've casually talked about with my family a lot because it's something that, like, my mom has experienced a lot of. And, like, now my sister and I have experienced. And so, like, we talk about it pretty casually in terms of, like. But, like, openness and, like, comforting, of course. But I think just, like, that weird line between, like, knowing about it and experiencing it was something that created, like, somewhat of, like, tension between. Between me and a lot of people. And also how I found really great people, people who are, like, open, having conversations about stuff that they may not have experienced before, which is definitely rare, but that makes it more valuable, which is kind of what I was trying to get at at the very end of the sentence, but I kind of made it, like, a crappy sentence, but, like, that, like, community you find during loss. Like, it's like, that, like, really strong and, like, loving community that I love and try to, like, find within organizing both around things that I may not have experienced personally, like, for, like, more political advocacy, but for, like, I'm starting, like, a union at the school of architecture. And, like, that's very personal. I'm a student worker in the school of architecture. So, like, finding a group of people that care passionately about the things that, like, I, like we have personally in the community experienced is really important. And I think in the beginning of community organizing, I like, was just like, I'm empathetic and I care about a lot of problems. But, like, coming on my fourth year here, I realized, like, it's hard. It's like, easier, it's more draining, but also easier to, like, be so passionate about things that you've experienced and, like, finding a community of people that have experienced the same thing. That's why I've been, like, really drawn to, like, my union work and stuff because, like, it's like a communal struggle and it feels like, really empowering to, like, find people that care.

14:01 And how do you find people that care on a campus nowadays? Because I don't know, like, as you were say, I think that things probably over. So what would I be 46 years older than you? That's a generation and a half. That's quite some time. So I'm just curious. I mean, what is. What is that life like on campus now? Trying to have support and having real conversations instead of just about what you're going to do that weekend?

14:27 Yeah, I mean, it's definitely hard. I think Uva, like any school and it's not like any big party school. Like, it's definitely really hard to find that community. I think I was lucky enough to have my roommate who was like, we were basically random. We ended up being very aligned politically, socially, just like very similar people. Still my roommate to this day, but I think finding that bigger community comes with just joining clubs and talking to people. And you slowly learn that not every conversation is going to be worth having another one with that same person of just putting yourself out there. And I think I've also been very lucky. Like, the school of architecture is very small and very, like, tight. Like, we, we trauma bond with our all nighters and stuff. So I think, like, finding like, those smaller communities that are just like formed either through clubs or through like, smaller schools or programs has been my main way of connecting with people. Like, I'm also double majoring in global studies on the middle eastern and south asian track. I'm a quarter iranian, so I kind of got into all those kinds of studies and regaining some cultural mindsets. But that's also a very small program with people who are more liberal and left and very strong organizers and all about talking about the world in a very new and fresh perspective. So I think that's how I've been able to find people through programs and clubs of smaller and more passionate interests. But it's definitely a long, long route. Is that like something similar for you, or do you think it was very different when you were in college or even now, like, talking to people and doing the work that you do?

16:08 It's interesting because my daughters always kid me because they, they remember from their childhood whenever they come home from school and tell me something. And I would always say, well, how does it make you feel? And it gets so sick of hearing that. And, but, yeah, I'm trying to think on campus. It was just very, very different back then. And it was just a different era. You know, it was just, it was a different era. People did not talk about addiction in their families, for example. Yeah, there was, starting in the nineties, there was something called adult children of alcoholics that got real big. It was kind of an offshoot of Al Anon. But gosh, by that time, I think I was in my late thirties when I started going to adult children of alcoholics meetings and then Al Anon started going to that. But there was nothing really on campus to deal with there. There weren't very good mental health services. There weren't, there just wasn't a lot of talk about it. There was talk about the social, political, the larger macro. But there wasn't a lot of talk about how these things affected people individually, which is so interesting. I'm glad that that's happening because it seems to me that a lot of people in, I don't know this, I don't know what the numbers would suggest on this, but that a lot of people who grow up in poor neighborhoods don't ever have a sense or an ability to even imagine that they're going to get out of that environment. That I wonder, I've long wondered how much innate depression exists in those neighborhoods just from hopelessness. And so you live in an environmentally unpleasing neighborhood with no sidewalks or bad grocery stores or whatever it might be, and that's what you grow up around. It's just this. So I wonder how that built environment, maybe you could tell me from an architectural student's point of view, like what that, what you know about how the built environment affects people and their expression of their, who they are.

18:32 Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, that's kind of like what I want to do my entire thesis about is, like, looking at that.

18:38 Really?

18:38 Yeah, like specifically in Richmond. Cause there are really massive housing projects in Richmond, and they're just God awful. It's really, like, depressing and stark. You know, you're in the neighborhood of one, like, just by the sidewalks, just by, like, the lack of trees. And, like, those, like, small things impact someone's daily life so much. So I'm doing in my studio right now, we're working with the marginalized community to, like, help redesign and give them some, like, advocacy tools of design. And that's what I want to do my thesis on. But I think stuff like that is really impactful. And I think that's something that, like, when I mentioned, like, suburban students don't understand. Like, the idea of, like, what it means to have, like, this, like, stark community, especially growing up in the city. Like, even though I, like, didn't live in one, like, I was adjacent and very aware and, like, went to public schools. Like, I witnessed, like, truly, like, that, like, literally, like, design segregation that exists between those spaces. Like, literally driving from, like, a rich neighborhood where it's, like, all walkable. There are trees everywhere. It's, like, so comfortable. Like, people want you outside. And then to go into, like, a poor neighborhood or a housing project, and there's not a single thing to make someone want to be outside. Like, there's a whole, like, there was this older study, I think I remember reading in California where they're like, we took out all the trees so that you could see people better, so street crime wouldn't happen. And I was like, that just makes people waiting at the bus stop who need the bus because they don't have access to cars, because they don't have access to money or a stable income uncomfortable and takes away their daily. I could talk all day about how the bullseye environment intrinsically affects our day to day lives and also reinforces that cycle because it's, like, what you live in every day and, like, what you get used to is something that's, like, not standard to living at all. And, like, in comparison to people who live near you or adjacent to you that have completely different appearances and design.

20:47 I like that term. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Oh, no, you go first, Regina. Oh, I was just going to say I like the term design segregation. I'd not heard that. But that's really. It really is what it is, right?

21:02 Yeah. So while we're on the topic of kind of growing up and places that have shaped who you are, we have a couple of questions that I always like to ask when we're in this part of the conversation. The first is, is there someone who has had a particularly strong influence on your life or your way of thinking.

21:24 And what they teach you?

21:27 And then the second is, and you've.

21:29 Kind of alluded to this a bit.

21:30 And I hope you can elaborate, is.

21:32 What is your first memory of politics.

21:35 Growing up and how did that impact you?

21:37 So I'm going to throw those two.

21:38 Questions out there, and then you can take turns answering them and, of course, asking any follow up questions. Yeah, I can go first, if you don't mind. My mom, I think, was the first person who came to mind. And this kind of answers both those questions. Very connected because she grew up in a lot worse situations than I did, thankfully, God bless her. But she definitely experienced a lot. And she also doesn't take any shit from anybody, though, excuse my language. But she's a very confident and proud woman. And, like, always, like, advocated for herself and for us. Like, my sister had a very hard time in school and they did not advocate for her. So my mom was a very strong advocate for both of us and kind of got us into the world of, like, politics and the world of advocacy in the world of, like, equity. And, like, not everything you're given is not always fair or what you should be given. Like, it's okay to, like, ask for more. Like, get accommodations or, like, the world is not automatically equitable. And, like, you have to speak for yourself a lot of the time, and your family is someone that helps you with that and you're not alone in it. But that was kind of a lot of things that early on shaped how I approach advocacy work and political work. I guess. I think you're muted.

23:13 Yeah, sorry, I was trying to unmute. Yeah, that's really interesting. And hear about the experience of a really strong woman like that. And, you know, women are the heroes throughout history who we never hear of the things that they have done in raising millions, billions of children. I guess it's the beginning of time and we never hear. We never. We so seldom hear about the things that they do. So I'm glad that that's changed. And I, too, would have to cite my mother again, though it's interesting because of the generational difference. So my mother was, in a lot of ways, a pioneer, but she. So she would have been, let's see, her Yort site for the anniversary of. The date of her death was just Friday. So I've had her on my mind a lot the past week, and she would have been, let's say she's born in 25, she would have been 98. So that's a, you know, it's a big, a big difference. But she was, she was a working girl who grew up in Atlanta during the depression, and opportunities for women were very, very slim at that time, particularly for poor women. And so it was also. She was also coming. She became a young woman. Let's see, she would have been 16 when World War two started. And so she lived that period in Atlanta. It had several army bases where gis would ship in and ship out. So the war loomed large in her life, and she married a soldier who was getting ready to ship off. And they had a baby, or she had a baby, actually, after he left for the war. And the guy she married was italian American, which at that time in Georgia, if you can imagine, that was a huge, huge no, no. She has this beautiful little italian american baby, and suddenly she's going through that ostracization. Then they got divorced, and that was another ostracist. Ostrac. What's. How do you say that word? Ostracization? Anyway, so, and then, so when she married my father, who came from a well to do kind of southern, his parents had been cotton growers, and so they thought she was no count, and she hadn't finished high school. She was divorced, and she had this, this half italian baby, and they were just, it's like, oh, my God, you know, where did they go wrong? How could this, how could this guy be marrying this woman? And so when my father left, they did nothing to help her at all. So she really, really. So she had, so she had. So, first of all, she gave birth to my sister five months later. And so she has a newborn and four children, and she can't work because in 1958 in Georgia, you're not going to get a job. Nobody's going to hire you when you're pregnant. And also, there were no real strong child support laws. So. So anyway, it's interesting, though, miriam, you talk about your mother wouldn't take a, um, crap. Mother did. Because, number one, I think in some ways, she didn't think she, um, that she could ask for anything. But then also the laws at the time, when she was growing up, as I just mentioned, the child, there weren't child support laws in the books that people could really enforce, and nobody really cared about enforcement. Nobody wanted to help us. Poor woman. So it's interesting, I saw her stand up for herself to the degree that she could, but she was not a political. So getting back to your question about politics, I didn't see her so much get involved in politics as maybe perhaps seeing her not getting involved in politics, because the social times in Athens, Georgia, at that time, in the sixties, we were just integrating the University of Georgia, things were happening. I guess that was one big memory of that. And, of course, Georgia was really fighting all that and fighting integration and the end of segregation. So I saw, and I saw what happened to mother and how she had no clout and would try to go to sheriff's and whomever to try to help her find her husband was basically no help. So in a roundabout way, kind of the opposite way of what you're speaking of, I saw how laws, it was essential to change laws. It was important to. To advocate for oneself. But as I said, so I guess mother did advocate for herself. I mean, she did go to city attorney. She did go to sheriff. She tried to find her husband, but the laws weren't on the books to support her. So I took that and saw, holy cow. Because I could see how differently people were treated. I saw how black people were treated in our small town. I saw the ruckus that people were making over integration. And it was like, what in the world? That kind of led me to be. That sort of led to my politicization, I guess.

28:46 Wow. Yeah. I mean, I think it sounds like your mother did, like, really did try to pull out a lot of stops, but I think it definitely aids my mother because, like, one, laws, like, are lenient. They're just not in force, and they're often ignored. But also, I think more recently, like, there is that bigger community of sport and there are more people advocating for the same thing and finding each other who are advocating for the same thing. Like, I think especially back then, it was probably, like, a lot more isolating of a thing to advocate for. And, like, advocating for yourself is important, but it's harder to get things done and, like, harder to not be ostracized as, like, this, like, if you're a collective versus a single person.

29:32 Yeah, I think that's a good point. I think she was ostracized to some degree. She was a beautiful woman, and people wondered, you know, who is she with these five kids? And so instead of welcoming her into a fold and saying, we're going to help you, it's like, oh, no, we're going to keep, you know, you're going to take our husbands away from or something like that. So, yeah, so I saw the effects of that kind of isolation, too. And so I'm sure that that helped. So I went from being like a campus activist. And then I realized that maybe I could do something in journalism that would advocate for people. So that's sort of what led me into journalism, but. Oh, I see something from Sam here. Let's see.

30:21 Encourage us to read the question five on the.

30:24 Okay, do you have it? All right, let me get out of here.

30:29 Yeah, I can read it out loud.

30:30 Okay. Thank you.

30:32 Could you briefly describe in your own words your personal political values?

30:42 Do you want me to answer that or you want to ask you?

30:46 You can go first. I answered a few of them first earlier.

30:49 Okay. Okay. Well, I am, as a journalist, I'm not supposed to be a member of either party, so I'm not, but I very much believe in a, that all governments should be concerned with trying to create a just society and trying to bring about equity and fair treatment for everybody. So I guess that kind of summarizes my politics.

31:24 Yeah. And then you vote.

31:29 Oh, that's okay.

31:31 No. Were you, were you done or.

31:33 No, I was just going to say, and then, and then I vote for the person who represents those ideals the most to me.

31:39 Yeah, I definitely agree with everything you said. I think, like, first and foremost, like equity and fair treatment and access to things, I think. And also by saying that, like, acknowledging that, like, a lot of things aren't equitable in life and being able to acknowledge it and vote for someone who acknowledges the inequity and also promotes equity and public access to human rights. And I'm not a journalist, so I can have a little political affiliation, which I think always bounces because I think they're extremes in, like, individuals, but as a whole, I guess identify as, like leftists and somewhat liberal, I guess, but more left preferences. I struggle with the idea of identifying with a certain system structure in terms of capitalism, socialism and communism. And I think everything has its faults. And I think there's something in between that can work with, like, the systems we have now and moving those systems to something that serves the people better. I think those are my beliefs. Is it hard to be or like, not identify with, like, a certain political system or party as a journalist? Or do you think it's almost more comforting to not have to do that?

33:11 That's a good question. It probably, yeah, it's hard. I mean, you have to really watch it in reporting. We were just discussing right before I came in here, we were discussing our election coverage for the week, and I was sharing with my staff my personal views about the election. And it's really hard right now because journalists have been trained to be fair and balanced and all that kind of stuff and where we're supposed to be. But we also, there have been a lot of discussions in recent years about not having false equivalency, for example. I mean, so, like, I don't want to give an election denier the right to espouse their beliefs because their beliefs are wrong. And that's just, that's been proven. That's just been proven wrong. And I don't want to, and I don't want to give a racist an opportunity to give their point of view because that's not even, that's not necessarily a fact. But it's not, it's just not right. It's not. So we've had a lot of discussions in the newsroom about how often, to use Richard Spencer's name, for example, when something comes up about the unite the right rallies or I've suggested that maybe we just say the guy who led the rally or something like that. It's like I don't want to even give him publicity, but I can't really do that. So they reminded me I can't really do that. I would like to do that. But, yeah, so it is, but it's, yeah, so it's interesting to hear what you're saying about capitalism and communism, socialism. It's like nothing's really working right now.

35:06 Yeah, I thought it was really interesting, the point that you brought up of the fact of like, what was the word you used, not giving them like a platform affair throughout what you just said. But the idea that, like, especially with like insurrectionists, like election deniers and all of that, like, the idea of like misinformation making like on certain sides.

35:40 In.

35:40 The way that, like, it's not like, like two fair parties anymore. It's like a lot of misinformation and just like blatant, like bigotry. So I think, like having to draw that line and be like people that do that must be like very difficult because I think there's like a, like, even in, like on grounds we have a group called Young Americans for Freedom and they're basically just in the pocket of Fox News and like spread misinformation constantly and say that as conservatives, they are oppressed on campus, which is a really crazy thought. And my roommate is in student council, which is doing really good work. They're all like leftists and promoting really good equitable orgs and diversity and just overall doing things that benefit the public good. And they're constantly complaining that, like, why aren't you guys sharing our stories? Why aren't you promoting our events like you're supposed to be for every student, but it's like you're actually not promoting things that are good or alright or, like, legal. Like, they have doxxed students and doxed literally, like, people my age for, like, just promoting, like, good, like, undebatably, like, good things. So I think that that's something really interesting that, like, definitely bleeds into, like, the work that we both do of, like, acknowledging everyone's perspectives and making sure people feel heard and, like, included so that you can have that, like, discourse. But then people who spread misinformation and hatred, like, also don't get a platform. But it feels like a point of tension to be someone who, like, decides who gets, like, a platform or not, or, like, who decides what's, like, misinformation, which is, like, exactly what they want, is like that confusion in that blur that was kind of where my mind went with what you just said.

37:37 So, miriam, so y'all are growing up with this. I mean, this has become, you've come of age with this disinformation and this manipulation of, well, it's just really, it's disinformation, misinformation and lies is what I would call it. So how does that affect your worldview and how does that, I mean, do you, how do you feel about it? I'm asking, I'll guess my daughters. How do you feel about that? Does it, do you feel. I don't know. I mean, what's it like to be living in a town in which they're really, there's so few leaders to really admire.

38:19 Yeah, I think it's both really, like, almost just, like, depressing and can be, like, make the world feel, like, really impossible. But it's also the reaction of, like, student leaders and, like, student organizers feels really powerful and, like, it's like, truly, like, the people have each other's back. And it's not about this, like, one leader, because, like, basically every leader has been, like, removed from their pedestal in my eyes, especially with my global studies classes, like, learning just, like, dating back to, like, you know, many centuries ago about, like, any leader at any event I've ever heard, there were lies and deceit from America, and I don't trust a single person in it anymore. So I think, like, it can be really disheartening at times. Like, depending on how, like, what lens you're looking at it, depending on what article you just read. Like, sometimes I'm like, crap. Like, no, one. No one is good. The system is ruined. There's no saving it. But I think sometimes remembering and, like, being able to fall back on, like, those organizations that I'm a part of and friends and have friends inside, like, knowing that there are people that truly can, like, truly believe that there is, like, some way past this. And, like, I. There are these good people that truly do just have people's best intentions in mind, can be really powerful. So I guess there's, like, a constant tension in my head of, like, complete optimism and complete, like, nihilism, like, pessimistic views. So I think it's, like, really extremes all the time, almost.

39:51 That's interesting. What do you think about the. There's a lot made these days about the generational divide between zoomers and boomers. And how does that. What are you experience? What's your experience of that on campus? I mean, even within the workplace? And then when I read different news outlets, I read about animosity that Gen Z has for the boomers. And. And is that. Do you think that that's real? It's like this, you know, it's just one more divide in our country. And if it is real, then how do we close it?

40:31 Yeah, I think the, like, biggest divide that, like, I often feel, but I'm also surprised when I don't feel or excited when I don't feel is, like, that idea of rewriting the system. Like, a lot of students and my peers are, like, we need, like, this very large, systematic change. But I think for a lot of people who have, you know, lived in the system for much longer than I have, and we have are like, well, it's just the way things are, like. And they, like, still believe in change, but maybe believe in change through the system. But I think a lot of organizing that, like, my generation is working towards, and I know, like, there's a lot of other people who, like, still very much believe in the system, are very, like, strong held democrats and such. But I think a lot. It's, like, a lot bigger of a movement of this. Like, we need, like, to change the system as a whole. Like, there's no way to gain equity and, like, equal rights by just working in the, like, games the system has set up for us almost. So I think that's, like, the hardest thing to get people to feel can actually happen. Like, I think it's all about, like, showing, like, how. Showing that there have been successes in the past, maybe, like, some in America and some in other countries that have done, like, very large systematic changes. I think that where, like, the bigger divide comes from, it was like, how to get that change? Like, everyone wants it. Like, the people I'm talking about want it. And then the divide comes from, like, how do you get it? And, like, how do you think, like, what's, like, actually feasible to you? Which is also, like, something I struggle with, like, working in a system that's already there. And then also, like, how do you create a new system but in a system that doesn't like your system? It's like a whole mind flip.

42:19 Gotcha. I'm just gonna jump in here for.

42:21 A second because I couldn't help myself because you touched on the very same question and subject that I was going to bring up, which is, especially when we have conversations between across generations where maybe the political differences aren't super strong. The question that I always lean into is, what is your, like, what are your systems of change that you believe in, and how does your. How do your personal values kind of affect those?

42:47 So you've already kind of started touching.

42:49 On this, and I'd love to keep on that train. I also just did want to give a small time check in that we are around the 45, 40, 45 minutes ish mark. So definitely keep talking about this. And then the next question after we talk a bit about systems of change.

43:04 That I just want to throw out.

43:05 There was about dealing with misunderstandings in your life, whether it's people that you have a hard time wrapping your head around their belief systems, and also the other way around where you feel like you are maybe misunderstood by people who are different than you.

43:20 And if you could just share any.

43:22 Memories or experiences associated with misunderstanding.

43:27 So I'll pass it back to you.

43:28 But you guys are reading my mind, so I'm just enjoying being in the background. Thank you. Virginia. Did you want to say anything off the, like, systems of change kind of thing?

43:44 Well, I think the main thing that we need to do, personally, I think that would just go to help. I don't know how we're ever going to get any sense of economic equality or have people who were making minimum wage ever had a shot at a decent lifestyle in this country, is if we change the tax structure. And so that we need to. In my mind, we need to not give corporations the huge tax breaks we give them. And then we also need to change the inheritance laws so that people can't establish trust that pass on money to the next generation without being taxed. We're at a place in our country where we have. Where white people basically have a 400 year head start on black people. And that's just one group. That's just one difference. But poor people are so, so, so far behind that. It feels to me like sometimes that, I mean, I'm not saying that the one on one isn't important. We have to do that because there are people suffering around us every day. But I think we've got to have wholesale change with our tax structure to make things equalize. And we may need reparations. I'm not sure how that would work. But I'm very concerned about economic inequality because I think of the children who are unhoused and the children who are going to bed hungry at night, and there are millions and millions of them. And then I think about their parents and how hard they're working and how we ever going to get out of that. So I think we've got to have very big structural change at the top in terms of our finances. So how about you? What do you think in terms of the systems change?

45:35 Yeah, well, I think I agree with all the economic changes and stuff. And I think a lot of, like, our education system, our entire education system is broken. And that's something I really felt firsthand. The Richmond public schools, like, terrible, terrible. They get such a bad rating. It's like a d minus whenever they do their reviews. And I think, and I think, like, all of those changes, like, I think I struggle with, like, I can acknowledge, like, all the things we need to change, but I don't know how they're supposed to change. Like, I don't honestly have faith in, like, our american government system to, like, ever let those changes happen because they're so self interested, especially economically, to keep that. Like, they don't want us to ever think about changing that. And I think that's also, like, why our education system is so flawed is because knowledge is power to a certain extent. So the idea of, like, not giving us great education, especially people who are already marginalized, it's a way of keeping them marginalized. So I guess that's what I've yet to, like, figure out of. Like, what? Like, how do you change it in the system and out of the system? Like, I believe, like, advocacy work within, like, one of the organizations I'm in is like a part of a national PAC that advocates for it. But then I also experience that we're restricted with how much we can advocate for certain things in the vocabulary we get to use because we're trying to appeal to a system that is trying to oppress us. But then it's so hard to work outside of the system as someone oppressed because you don't have so much power. And it's really easy to silence people who don't have, like, money and power. So I guess that's kind of where my political system ideological pathway is. Do you have anything more to that, or do you want to move to the misunderstood question that she gave us?

47:47 Yeah. Do you want to go ahead and talk about when you felt misunderstood politically?

47:55 Yeah, I don't. I don't know if I have one. Just if you have one, feel free to go. I can think of something, though, if you don't either.

48:02 Okay. Okay. Well, yeah, I mean, because I come from a part of the country, the deep south, it's. That has turned very, very, very. I don't even know it's conservative. I don't even like that, that adjective because I don't even think that captures it. It goes beyond conservative. It says just, I don't get it. But, but I have, and a lot of my friends have a good bit of money. I mean, they're not necessarily billionaires or anything like that, but they're very comfortable, and so they don't want the system to change at all. And I. So I'm not so sure that they misunderstand me so much as we just don't even talk about politics because we don't go anywhere. I mean, if, like, I have a close friend from high school, and when I had stayed at her house before, I've actually heard her husband use the most worst, the worst racial sword that you can imagine. Or, you know, it's known in our, in our language. And she's married to this guy. I mean, you know, I couldn't stay married to a guy like that. And so, but she doesn't understand. If I try to talk about something, I pretty much get shut down. So we basically just don't talk politics. So I don't know if that's not. If that's not. I guess it is me being misunderstood, and yet at the same time, I can't understand them because I just don't. I just don't get. I just don't get that type of thinking. And so I guess I bring some of it on just because I don't think the way they think.

49:49 Yeah, no, I definitely agree. And I feel like a lot of misunderstanding, I guess, personally and in general, when it comes to, like, the two parties of, like, I think something and a reason that I find myself. I don't really have a lot of people that have differing political views than me is because I think a lot now, especially with, like, a lot of the deceit, lies and, like, misinformation that exists is like, it's not just politics and it never has been. It's like ethics and morals to me. And I think that that's where a lot of misunderstandings people were like, oh, like, just, just don't talk to them. I'm like, no, because if you have especially a certain subsect of political alignments, like, I want nothing to do with you because I truly believe that reflects you as a person. Like, your political beliefs are not some tangential thing about you. It's like who you are saying. That's where a lot of misunderstanding comes from. When people are talking about when to have dialogue and when not to. I'm like, if you have these beliefs, I'm trying to change your complete identity and moral alignment and I can't do that as a person and don't think I have to. I think you need to do some soul searching eventually. But I think that's, like, the biggest misunderstanding of, like, a lot of people believe that separating, like, politics and who you are as a person, I think sometimes you can, especially depending on their politics. But I think when it comes to, like, there's more extreme politics that we're seeing, like, butt heads, it's like the word politics just doesn't really capture it anymore. Yeah, yeah.

51:21 I hear what you're saying. It's that it's like, okay, hitting an 82 year old man over the head with a hammer and almost killing him. In no scenario is that okay. In no scenario is it okay. Like, my friend, whose husband is a racist doesn't understand what people don't want to be around him. And she doesn't understand why I don't want to visit. And it's like I'm just not going to. Just not going to be aligned with that. So I hear what you're saying. It's like, it goes, it is, it is deeper. It's like, what? So I don't know. It's the talk about reaching across the aisle and that kind of stuff then therefore becomes really, really hard because you're talking about things that are, as you said, basic moral ethical issues.

52:13 Yeah. And I feel like that also comes into, like, people who are forced or, like, trying to, like, bridge the party gap. It's like, but then you're put in that position of having to compromise your morals and compromise, like, your political beliefs and moral beliefs in order to talk to these people because you have to give them, like, a platform so that they feel heard, so that they can, like, come over to your side. But, like, will that ever happen? Is it worth, like, compromising your morals? Becomes, like, such a difficult thing to answer when you're talking about trying to change our system in general. Therein lies the greatest challenge of this, which I think it is interesting because I think more often than not, we find that people do share a lot of common ground. But I think one of the. This is just anecdotal, but as you wrap up this conversation, I think one of the challenges, an interesting aspect is.

53:10 We rely a lot on self identification.

53:12 When we put people together, especially for conversations as well. And I think going back to the early, early point, I think you were both making in Virginia, talking about the collective versus the individual, people place themselves on these spectrums in very different ways. But when you boil it down to kind of those values, if you just remove the kind of partisan framework, I think we found that people share a lot of core values, which I think is interesting, but it does make it hard to know if we're capturing the full scale of who's out there. So just to wrap up this wonderful conversation, I just wanted to give you a moment to, I think, the last question or two on the guider. But is your partner who you expected them to be, and is there anything that surprised you about them?

54:08 And I'll give you each a minute.

54:10 To reflect on that before we close out. I don't. I don't know who I was expecting, but I guess I just, like, don't know if I'm ever surprised because I'm never expecting, but so much. But I was really surprised to hear a lot of, like, similarities in growing up and, like, relationships, like organizing. I didn't expect that you'd be an organizer. That was so exciting to hear. I think that's something that surprised me and something I didn't expect. I wasn't expecting to love this conversation as much as I did. I thought that, like, I didn't know what I was, didn't know what it was when I signed up for it, and then really didn't know what to expect when I got the workshop. So, like, this was, like, a really awesome thing to experience.

55:01 Yeah, it really was. I'm so grateful to one small step into you, Miriam, because it's been just a great conversation. And I feel like in terms of surprises, not all that surprises, just very happy and felt good about. I just kind of warm inside or something that to know that there's someone who cares so much is working at trying to make it, really trying to work for social justice. Because I hear a lot sounds like you and your friends are really thinking about concrete ways. Might not have all the answers yet, but you're really thinking in concrete, specific ways. And I'm not saying concrete just because we were talking about the built environment, but just talking about ways that.

56:02 I.

56:02 Think this is going to take a lot of thought and a lot of care on behalf of a lot of people of goodwill to try to get through this difficult time in our history. So I was very happy to meet you and to hear that you're doing as much as you are. So that's. That's great. And also, I love to hear about the. I want to stay in touch if we can, because I want to hear about your thesis project and what's happened in terms of getting the. This improving the environment for kids. And not just kids, but adults, everybody who lives in these very, very unpleasant looking neighborhoods.

56:40 Yeah, I love that. And thank you so much for sharing all of your life with me. It was really awesome and unique to get to talk to someone just pretty in depth and open about who we were and who we are and what we've been through. So that was really nice. And thanks for sharing and making a comfortable environment to talk about it all.

56:59 Yeah, absolutely.