Mitchell True and Patti Lancaster

00:03 Hi, my name is Patty. I'm 66 today is October 25th. 2019. I'm in Mendon Vermont. My conversation partner is Mitch and we are strangers.

00:21 My name is Mitch true. I am 55 years. Old. Today is October 25th 2021. I'm in Fairfax Vermont and I'm talking with Patty today and we have just met.

00:38 Okay, excellent.

00:44 Alright, so here's your first question and Mitch. Why don't you ask Patty this first?

00:49 Play patty. What made you want to do this interview today?

00:55 This is one of my biggest concerns is the division in the country and I thought I could, this was one small step that was being handed to me on a silver platter and I wanted to be part of it.

01:10 Good. And now Patty, you can go ahead and ask Mitch. Same question. What made you want to do this interview today?

01:16 I also have very similar concerns. I have a feeling that despite some of the polarisation that we see, I think there has to be a large core of middle ground. And I was. I was hoping that this could be an opportunity to find some of that.

01:38 Great. Thank you. Okay. Now is the stage where I'm going to put your bio and and I'm going to start.

01:48 By putting patties bio in and Miss. I want you to read it. Exactly as written. And then go ahead and ask her some questions about it.

01:59 It says I am nearing retirement age. I'm the grandmother of a two year old. I grew up in New Jersey, graduated law school there and it become a public defender there. And in Vermont, I presently work with prisoners Statewide. I am the mother of three I come from very close to large extended family. I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school for 14 years. Although I began questioning formal religion at an early age. I worry about the environment for the next generation and the divisions in our country.

02:40 And go ahead and ask her some questions based on her bio really good. Well, I was wondering after reading about this a grandmother of a two year old is she local or in New Jersey to get to see her much, my daughter, the mother of the two year old just had a little girl. So the oldest is a boy and a little girl 6 weeks ago and they live about 3 hours away in our grade about wanting to come to Vermont for a variety of reasons, but hopefully mostly to see us and make sure the kids know, their grandparents. Well, so they were in the Massachusetts, just over the New Hampshire border.

03:19 Very good. My daughter, just got married last year, just bought a new house. And so now every time I see her I'm kind of like, you know, was there a baby on the way yet? And I got a lot of dad, definitely thinks you're not supposed to ask which I asked all the time.

03:42 Got anything else you want to ask her Mitch before you move on? Or just all kinds of questions if we can just go to roll conversation when you want. Yeah, just thinking a little bit about the things you put in concerns about the the environment is so much to be concerned about. Was there something in particular like that are water? Global warming animals. What what what is it that you that kind of keeps you up at night?

04:20 Our disagreements in this country, come down to whether or not what we are worried about that or not, and that it's going to be expensive to if we believe in it. It's going to be expensive to work on and I'm worried that we were going to lose that opportunity.

04:39 So are water, everything, but I made you lied to me. It comes back down to clean water, fresh air.

04:47 No fires. Yes, which in Vermont as you know, we've been lucky to be.

04:55 Protected largely protected from.

04:59 So far, yes.

05:06 Good. Thank you. I'm going to go ahead and put Mitch's, bio and and Patti white. You read that at threatened and then ask him some questions about it. Okay, if I grew up in rural Vermont after serving in the Marine Corps, I returned for college, eventually. I became a high school, teacher got married. What a house and raised two girls. I always believed in old fashioned words, like for her to service dignity honor and respect as a Christian. I hope my faith has shaped me into a person who can be of service to others in my community. About 10 years ago. I remarried and have enjoyed it back to the land Lifestyle on our Homestead.

05:46 My first question was, what did you teach? I am. Yes. I left Public School teaching and I'm now working in a private to special education school, which I really enjoy. So, that's more of a variety of subjects, it is. But when I was in public school, I taught for 23 years. And that was social studies, mostly Global Studies and Civics. And right now, I'm still teaching a variety of the social studies courses history, Civics US history of the gamut, which I really enjoy the variety.

06:28 Terrific.

06:30 Are you I'm going to say it back to the land lifestyle. Do you mean growing your own food and things along those lines? Yes. I always had a passion for it. And my wife was several steps ahead of me. So when we first started dating, we're just talking a lot about sort of our our dreams about it. But yes, we have we have chickens for eggs, and we raised for meat. I have some beehives, we have sheep. So we have but wall, but I spin and weave that I really enjoy doing. She has a couple of courses and we have a family milk now. So we we've known her and we make cheese and and those those kinds of things. But everything is just very small scale, but it's so we find it, just throw a rewarding, wait to spend our time.

07:26 When you use the term Christian, do you mean that in a? Like I grew up thinking Protestants and Catholics were Christians, but I understand that much for broader or in Summit case is different.

07:43 Since now.

07:46 You know, it said it, it it's interesting how that our interpretations of what that is changes over time and denominations kind of struggle for identity. Your eye. I consider myself a Christian. I believe in Jesus, I believe in God, I am in the word. I pray daily. I have a Bible study group. That's my fellowship group that I meet with regularly. So for me to be a Christian is to believe in and live into a a Biblical lifestyle. You can write, none of us, get it, get it. All right, or get it all perfect. We make mistakes which is sort of the definition, but it's that it's that effort to live into it that I think at least defines me as a Christian.

08:43 And you had 14 years of Catholic school. He had yeah, College. Tell me a little bit about that. Well, you probably remember that. I said, I began questioning at an early age and, and I did.

09:02 I,

09:07 You know, I'm having trouble like consolidating. That's what it's for this moment. Put in any event. My parents sent me to Catholic High School because I thought, I'd like to put too much at that age. And there I met my husband at a regional Catholic school. We would have never met otherwise, so it was a fortuitous were married 44 years and and and then I went to a Catholic college and only left that school after my second year because I was my major, they weren't offering what I really needed for my major and so

09:49 And I love learning about different religions. You know, I loved all the college courses related to religion, that were mandated. So I never

10:05 And yet, all along, I find myself not to be a believer. I I am more a believer in this is the connection between people and you know, is that sprayer on another level? That's fine. But my it's just not formal for me. It's much more being. I love your words, there. They're my words, dignity honor, respect service. Those are all things that go to the heart of who I am and how I was raised. So,

10:41 But I don't, I don't formally partake in the religion of it of any sort. So

10:48 Okay.

10:52 I will let you know, I guess, you know, as most as many people will say the thoughts that God would let a lot of this go on. I think it's probably what I think. It first began to make make making me question. My mother suffered from a really serious mental illness from the age, from my age of 10. And among the things that I couldn't imagine that the god. I was learning about would allow Ashley for chip for children. Was that, you know, that was just such a difficult thing for me to make sense of and I wonder now, talkin with you at maybe the first time I've ever put those two things together. So, thank you and

11:36 You know, that may well have been a big chunk of it for me.

11:42 Because I grew up in the town where you can see a lot of poverty. You didn't see minorities. So it wasn't I didn't have those other experiences with like unfairness. That would have prompted me at an early age without that was a big one.

11:59 Yeah, it is. If it continues to be challenging for me to, to see to see God outside of my personal experience, and personal wants and needs my bubble to see the to see the cosmic Beyond me. That's still sometimes work. I like that term. Those thank-you, the cosmic Beyond you.

12:26 So what do you think of, you know, religions been politicized, you know, so when you, when you read this and you said, okay, he's a he's a Christian and what, what what does that mean to you?

12:43 You know.

12:48 What you've described strikes me as my understanding, George Bush, George W bush. And that may have been the first time that I became aware that there was this other way of being Christian. And I did not grow up with that. In my, my church or in my school's. I went to and I guess I have a large family and I'm not aware of that. From any of my brothers, were their families, who continue to be quite religious, but in the

13:23 As far as I know in the traditional catholic sets, so I figured that was but then I see the reason we both raised that I guess is because they asked us to talk about it. So it's not that you live with that, but maybe you would have yes, so I do.

13:44 I hate to generalize, but I do associate the word Christian with conservative and

13:52 And when I see someone in Congress, let's say who was says, there are Christian, but seems so mean to me.

14:04 That I have a real hard time saying, okay. So let me know how that turn Christian can justify this mean, it needs spiritedness this anger. This the lies or what I perceive. How does lives.

14:24 Yeah, I think that in the Marine Corps, you know, you've had that certain history of of, of service to country, but through through the military and then a Christian struck me that that was and I didn't know about the homestead part. But now you have, you know, you've sort of packaged it for me in a way that it just kind of a package I gather. And I didn't I didn't think that through before I I met you, but it's interesting, very interesting and you seem like such a nice person. I suspect you are.

15:01 You said you didn't you, too.

15:07 Before we move on to the next question. I am just curious. Mitch. Do you want to ask Patty any anything about her work with prisoners across the state?

15:17 Yeah, actually, thank you.

15:23 Tremendous respect for you for what must be a, a, a, a difficult job is a public defender. I just can't imagine all the, the different people. The different cases, the different stories you work with. There must be some, some chaos involved with it. And when I think of the things one could do was a lawyer. This is this is where you have put your, put your time. What what? What led you to spending your time as a public defender.

15:59 At some level, you know, I grew up in the

16:05 The sixties and seventies.

16:09 Insecurities, that women felt might have led me not to want to be this high-powered lawyer. I also thought I would never appear in court, which I've done for most of my career. So there goes that. But I, I, by Chance. The clerk for a judge who was a classmate of mine and clerks, where she just sort of, said me to him. And because I wasn't the top student in the class by car, and he had a criminal courtroom trial court room, which the public defenders were the majority of the young at the majority of chases them. And

16:50 So I got to watch in action public defenders and was very fascinated by the substance of what they were doing. And

17:02 After a year of, you know, in the job that locally became available after I finished with the judge, the public defenders had an opening and I got fired.

17:17 Do we lose Mitch? I'm here. You are here.

17:22 I'm sorry. Did you appear to freeze an outline of a man? Not your outline? I have an outline for Karen as well, but you're clear.

17:36 Karen are you there? I am here. Yep. I just turned my video off so I won't be a distraction. But can you see me now? No system.

17:50 I'm at it could be, it could just be sometimes, you know, if the internet starts to lag, it will turn the video Porsche enough so that the quality remains. Okay, I think as long as you can still hear us, we can we can try to press on, but if it becomes a distraction are, we could leave this this virtual space and re-enter. If you want to try that, are you all right, going. So I am if you are. So it's whatever you want to do. Yeah. I have your face in my mind, Defender work is. So those initial jobs were in Jersey City, New Jersey wide, a bit different from Vermont. So,

18:36 I came to appreciate the different, you know, race and ethnic groups that I worked with getting an insight into into lives that I couldn't even imagine your people living in the projects, and

18:53 Shockingly.

18:56 I'd life.

18:58 So high last night, I think I've always been good at connecting with people that are struggling and and so for the most part I have a good working relationship with clients. There's always the guy that, you know, lots of Miracle on Guess really angry. So I certainly doubt with my share of that, but in general, the benefits of the job are a, you know, a husband and wife whose whose marriage is affected by his anger, and violence, and drinking and drugs, or whatever combination is and to see them work through that, with support services. And what have you and make it work again.

19:41 Because it's very hard to be divorced to be in poor, not enough cars, not enough houses, not enough money, not enough, anything to life to to work, even when they were together. So there are parts of the job, being an addict, get into recovery in and really, really change right before, you know, my eyes and the judges as a result. So, I think it's been fulfilling work. It is Hardware kits.

20:16 Sometimes you just can't with all your best intentions and all your hard work, you know, muscle somebody into taking the right track and muscle or care for somebody somebody into taking the right track and you know, so there they were plenty of Flesh frustrations. My husband's a lawyer to and he deals with bankruptcies and all these other things and he still has clients or yell at him. So, you know, the nature of our times and maybe the nature of the Beast.

20:46 I suspect by the time you need a lawyer, passions are pretty high. Anyway, well, it sounds like as you're talkin, there's a lot to a lot of the system may be a lot of us, don't know about the legal system. I'm hearing a lot of connections with wraparound Services, Social Services agencies. It's not kind of like someone, you know, violated the law of our committed a crime. So here's the consequence. It sounds like there is a, a lot of behind-the-scenes work that goes on. That sounds may be more compassionate than the average person knows about. Does that sound right? Yeah, that's really interesting because I was in my been involved in Rutland and starting up a truck or hear it for decades now and

21:35 I was telling my daughter, something about how I had learned as you're describing the criminal justice system Everything at Once. When the Hammers, you're only told everything. Looks like a nail. Well, I sent a lot of years where that was the criminal justice system and we did not know about addiction. We did not understand about poverty and effects on children and and it in but slowly as social science began to understand some of these subjects, or at least. And I do mean began to understand, cuz we change our understanding all along to improve mental illness, children treatment, as so as time understanding to change. So did my ability to advocate for clients in a different way, and

22:32 And Along came a ultimate, leave the judges in the prosecutors to a lesser extent. But sometimes if you can convince the prosecutor that you know, this guy's the real thing is what's going on. We need a little time to be able to lay out a nice package for you and the judge, but the things things are going really. Well. They're willing, it said good.

22:56 Why do I want to die with a big record? That can't get a job?

23:00 Right after he's made all these changes and nobody's going to hire them excetera. So I think the criminal justice system has matured and I've been lucky enough in a sense to have, watch it, do it. Who knows what comes next? But I think you make a good point that people don't and that's what my daughter said to me. She said, people don't really understand all of that. So I'll have to think of a way to

23:27 To bring that the humanity of the system.

23:32 To a larger public.

23:35 Yeah. Yeah, cuz I was thinking we know we both work for state public service institutions, you know, at least I did before I went private.

23:48 And it struck me that a lot of people don't actually know what happens in school. What the curriculum actually is, what their student, who really required to do, what the students are, how much work the teachers are really doing with the student, what's available for help, you know, people think that, well, I went to high school 30 years ago. So, I know what that's all about and Reporting on budgets and so forth without without really, very much information about what what goes on in the school. And I've often thought that, you know, I'll probably be improved with, you know, what, more transparency, not that anyone's hiding anything. It's just it's not transparent and it strikes me that the same might be true with, you know, the criminal justice system.

24:38 That's a great point.

24:43 And you know course I'm aware cuz we do juvenal work here to we didn't in Jersey City, but I'm aware of what teachers are dealing with with kids that are impossible to control taking away attention from other other students. I mean, it's I don't know what the answers are, but part of the answer is

25:07 Getting to the bottom of you know, what? What why are we suddenly, I guess it feels like suddenly having so many children that are

25:17 You know, expressing some sort of emotional disturbance or learning disabilities, or whatever, and

25:28 I'm getting to the bottom of it because I like I imagined, I mean the teachers have been required suddenly to teach about you. No anger control and communication skills class in a so much that wasn't part of teaching social studies, you know, you have to incorporate that all. Now in order to work on children's. Well, you said you talk subjects. So that's an important part of what I'm talking about is educating kids about democracy and

26:05 Yes, and you found something important this, the reason why I I left public education, after 23 years. It wasn't the kids so much as it was it was the adults. And it says you say I found myself not teaching just social studies or reading and writing or skills even like soft skills around manners and respect. Would go to jobs and things teachers who have always done but you're right. Now, I was being asked to teach things that were in my view probably more appropriate for society or counselor or or something or someone else and I thought well

26:52 Maybe it's better that someone who has

26:55 Better suited to these two teaching, these things was was here with the kids, you know, I left teaching three years ago, and there was so much happening around even back, then polarization political correctness. What you couldn't couldn't say? And as confused as we adults were, the students were even more. So and that was that was hard, hard to watch is well, and and a huge distraction from what I kind of felt I should be doing. I've always believed in educating the whole person and so forth. But same time, it seems like I was doing an awful lot of Social Work and parenting as well. And it was it was not necessarily the right balance for me, but you're right. It's changed changed drastically.

27:48 I asked your dad that my daughter speaking of political correctness. So my middle kid is.

27:56 30, just turned 30 and she's one of these.

28:03 Like way over-the-top political correctness people. But I say to her, are you trying to make our political divide worse by trying to make people change overnight? And you know, think about your audience. I'm constantly saying that to her. How do they feel? Do you turn them off to? They stop listening? You know, what why?

28:34 You know, people can still speak their minds or have a conversation anymore without you interrupting to say, oh, that's Politically Incorrect, you know, so I I to see that as just a certain barrier that has been put up and that prevents.

28:56 Common ground.

28:58 You know, I suspect if we tore apart, you know, broke into pieces. What is it? You're after with fighting about every term every notion. What it what do you what do we gain as a society by forcing changing people's faces rather than just growing together.

29:20 So I hear you. Yeah, my wife's expression is Live and Let Live, you know, it is as basic as that sounds. I do kind of keep coming back to that. The culture wars are such that.

29:39 You know, we feel like we have to make these huge monolithic decisions with every little small step we take and it's like it doesn't doesn't work out that way. Not everything is linked to the broader culture War. Kind of, we can go have diversity even though we have people who feel differently about things to me, that's sort of the definition of diversity. And I'm sometimes hearing people who talk passionately about diversity, not necessarily wanting to hear.

30:14 You know what props are more conservative or an older Generations. You point. It's like you say like, please, you have it your way, but don't ask everybody else to subscribe to. You can do what you want and stop alienating people, you know, we don't need more of it with so much. We don't know where to begin to go. Get Beyond it. You know. Yes, I work hard. I don't do a lot with technology. Like, I don't have a cell phone, and even when I teach, I'd certainly use the computer, is as a tool, but it's not my primary instrument. So I have a, I have a Facebook and I'm very careful with what I click on because I keep thinking my clique has my vote. I'm somehow contributing to the great algorithm. And, you know, I wonder how many other people think about that. So, you know, I kind of get my

31:14 My stream of of use, and I have some pretty

31:18 Pretty conservative friends were pretty much out there on The Fringe, you know, you know, I'll read what my friends put up but it's like I can't click like on that is humorous is it might be its its destructive, it's dangerous if it's wrong I can I'm not clicking on that scroll through those interesting because that's what they're saying is the things that get so many likes or the things that Facebook's you know, algorithm is designed to

31:52 Accentuate. So by taking a principled stance like you are, you're helping to prevent some of those, you know, extreme ideas from being, you know, the best ideas.

32:08 But unfortunately, we're society that wants entertainment, you know, we want the stuff that shocks we want this, and I don't know if he cause, as you point out.

32:19 So many people that live on their cellphones, right? That's their world.

32:26 And what we're all listening to our own.

32:33 What is it corn sources sources of information, which is a really hard one for us to break through. I don't know how that'll happen. But at least, I mean, I was figuring anybody who signed up for this one, small step, you know.

32:53 I knew you were.

32:57 Topsail.

32:59 And so that's over all the world needs. I think right? Is the thoughtful group to be heard. But where were The Quiet Ones? Cuz we're not.

33:12 S.

33:15 The squeaky wheel, I guess. Yeah, exactly.

33:19 Yes. No, I think I have a similar view about that, that that broad core of a people that are out there that are thoughtful, reasonable, understand that, you know, you're never going to get all of your way willing to make some compromises. You know, I think right now, one of the, one of the lines I use is, there's plenty of blame to go around and everyone wants to point their fingers are well, let's media, you know, well, it's from, well, it's it's, it's technology and the internet. Well, it's this group over there. And I think, I think it's all of us. I mean, if we really are, we, the people and government gets its power from Austin, our votes were in charge, we did this. So, I think we all have an individual role to play in terms of fixing this. So plenty of please continue to point the fingers at everybody.

34:19 High point one back at you. Cuz, you know, we all we all have a role to play to fix this cuz I think we all played a role get then do it. I thought that I have a very good point.

34:33 Are your daughters in Vermont?

34:36 One is there, they're both adults. And my older daughter is 28. Now the one who just got married and she's always been the home body always wants to be by dad. Always enjoys. You hanging out with Dad and so forth. So she only lives about 15-20 minutes away. She teaches my younger daughter was always the adventurer and when she was when she was younger. She always wanted to be what she said, was a dungler love to play out back, like in the brush. It looks lobby area, go back and collecting bugs and wanted to be a jongleur. Will it be colder?

35:19 She found out, you know, the word Wildlife biologists are graduated a couple of years ago. So she just spent the summer Rock counting prairie, dogs in Utah. Have a daughter in Salt Lake City. Is she she's actually in the southwestern part of the state. I think she'll probably end up moving up toward Salt Lake Area. Beautiful, there. Have you visited?

36:08 In California though. It really affected their air quality for your daughters about this. Not naturally, as I as I do my children, that there are the ones going to be stuck with this, if we don't figure it out.

36:26 Yeah, I die. I do like you. I'm concerned for the for the Next Generation. The problems that were that were leaving them with. It. Strikes me that for a long time, government has has been broken. It has not been doing its job, and I don't think we've we've helped people, you know, are our leaders accountable for that. I think about, you know, I you and I both know. I remember, when Hillary Clinton was talking to the senate about Healthcare reform back in the 90s. And, you know, we still don't have, we still don't have that. We've been talkin about carbon emissions for 20 years and we've been talking about, you know, an immigration policy for a long time and reforming that. And we, we, we still don't have that. So

37:14 You know, what's left is, is the people and, you know, we're behaving badly and I think we need we need we need our government to step up right now and really start taking some risks of the sense of, you know, standing up for some things representing passing some laws. When was the last time it was past, you know, instead of these continuing resolution government is broken and and and probably will be until we the people ask them to

37:52 Figure this out. It's hard work, but that's, that's what they are for.

38:00 So Karen is prompting me to ask you who has been an influential person in your life. And what did that person teach you?

38:10 Wow, I feel like not answering the question, but I'm going to kind of answer the question. I have been blessed to have had really throughout my life that has always been someone I have found or is found me. That's been an older man and she was worked as a mentor not formally or anything like that, but it was just always sort of understood that. Hey, we're buddies here. We're friends, but you know, you there's something about you that I can learn from. And, you know, I'm I'm I'm actually at 55 now reaching the point where I'm becoming that person for other people too, and I'm feeling blessed about that as well, But certainly you notice to the question. My father has always been very influential in my life.

39:10 I think he is one who put some of those ideas in my head, about service on her dignity virtue character traits. When I start teaching, there was a teacher who actually grew up in my hometown, but he was older. So I didn't I didn't know yet, we figured that out later. But Larry Trombley was was a great mentor for me as well. So when I always looked up to, I have a friend who's a good Christian and a spiritual leader who I've looked up to. So I've been lucky that in different parts of my life. There's always been someone that I need to learn a new skill from character development.

39:56 Maturity wisdom, how to handle things, you know, one of that, one of the other teachers I worked with I'm waiting ski and play racquetball. And you know, I have a beer once in awhile, but all along the way just talkin, just his calm demeanor about life and how to handle challenges and taking the Long View just by telling stories to each other and sharing our lives. He, you know, Jean sink rubbed off on me too. So I have a lot of people influential. Yeah, how about you or your influencers? Nana who I am now on, it's my grandchildren. She

40:49 I'm the first to go to college in my family. We did not come from money at all. And my grandmother Nana was first generation born here or father was born in hungry. Her mother died when she was really young and her father was a terrible alcoholic tiny cute. Little adorable young man old man who still spoke Hungarian and

41:18 She had stories of going to the bars on payday to swipe the change off the bar and the bartender would give them an egg her and her brother, an egg out of the what they sit in vinegar or something. And yet she worked hard cared about each other. People took care of people, her whole life was a union worker. So I got some of my union values from her.

41:52 Took care of my mother and us before kids because many times somebody had to

42:02 And there was something about her joy and living. She always had a bunch of friends than words Garden together. Whatever the heck go to the ocean together, always hiding Floyd despite the struggles and that she worked her way up to be.

42:24 Scuse me. Sorry. I apologize for the phone. It's not.

42:28 That'll be the last one.

42:31 That's okay for that.

42:35 Bought me that.

42:39 You know, you could come from nothing and with a lot of luck, and I, she never

42:46 I never gave herself credit for it all, but a lot of luck hard work and just sort of love life. No matter what. And so I I feel that most of my my values came from watching her.

43:07 Unflinching.

43:10 Goodness, really end. And yes, she was a little bit of a wild woman. She wasn't like a saint, but she was unflinchingly, good, and kind and caring, and loving and, and joyful to. So that was my idea. And I learned those things from her. I hope I do with them, Justice, to evens, a small extent compared to her.

43:34 I wonder how much of your passion for.

43:38 Being a public defender representing those with, you know, who who are marginalized themselves. Might have been influenced by your respect for her cuz my father was quite conservative and

43:55 And so we we butted heads with our politics, but

44:02 But he was sorry. He had a lot of those trades to as did my mother but my mother had her own struggles, so they didn't warrant as prominent to me I guess. But yeah, my father found a way to be proud of what I did with my career to even though I'm sure there were times what he thought was what is she thinking, you know?

44:31 And I wasn't mature enough when I was younger.

44:38 And living in New Jersey where he lived where they lived to.

44:44 Synthesize what I've learned as much as I can, as I'm getting older. And so, I wish I could have actually shared some of these stories with him. He would have definitely appreciate it and understood.

45:00 Right here. We had a kid. He took under his wing in the neighborhood that just, you know, was falling on hard luck or whatever. So, I did, I learn from my from both of my parents as well. But there was definitely so much from Nana.

45:18 Yeah, she lives a full life of so many experiences that they

45:24 They came to the fore in her being, you know, and so I was lucky that way.

45:31 That's great. That's why don't you go ahead and ask Patty this question? First. Sure. Could you briefly describe in your own words? You are personal political values.

45:47 So,

45:51 Fairness, you know, I don't think the world would wouldn't be a great place if we were all equal, but

46:03 But the ability to

46:09 Get a decent job and make a decent living. Be able to pay your bills. Be able to look forward to college for your children. All those, all those things would be, are my political values that is there is no fairness in the country in the world that allows

46:30 People to think beyond their immediate circumstances. Can I get through the day the week? Is there enough food for the month? What will those things? And that's really what drives, my my thinking that there be good treatment available? No matter what year.

46:48 Your car, if you had if you're still struggling from mental health issues or substance abuse, and we're actually making big progress with substance abuse. I'm I'm proud to say but much less. So with mental health,

47:10 So, I covered it all with those words.

47:16 Stimulator in in in many ways.

47:24 You know, is that as a as a person, you know, I remember watching Bernie Sanders on the, on the campaign Trail and

47:33 I had so much respect for him because he continues to raise important issues that need to be addressed. The middle-class Working Families environment. Do those kinds of things. He and I quickly part company on the solutions to those problem.

47:55 But I really felt like well, thank goodness. We have Bernie Sanders out there at least raising substantial issues that government can and should be addressing and others. Wanted to talk about a whole bunch of other things. So my my, my political values attend to be about small government is better government. I like to let you know, business and industry do what they can as far as the jobs and regulation as much as they can, but should they show themselves unable to regulate themselves themselves? Vulnerable to government intervention, is we're seeing for example with social media, you know the degree to, which government should be involved in regulating some things that that they're not self-regulating. And we've seen this

48:55 With food safety and so forth. Well if the industry's not doing it then yeah, you make yourself vulnerable to, you know, to government intervention, but generally I think I would like to this idea is that

49:09 We are that land of opportunity. Whether that's, you know, I I do think that's more than a mess. I think America is that land of opportunity and I think a big part of the role of government is to ensure that those opportunities are there for people to take. It's not about making sure everybody takes the opportunity so that the opportunities are all the same or lead for the same thing, but I think there's a certain amount of human dignity and respect. The government should be promoting around Health Care, dignity, educational, dignity, freedom for violence, dignity Clean, Water, and Air dignity, you know, these are some of the jobs of government to create opportunities for people to find these things. Whether they do it or not, that those bets that's individual choice and individual freedom, but

50:09 My fear is that I'm not sure how much opportunity government's been creating as we talked about. You know, we spent a decade talking about a shrinking middle class what was done to create opportunity for that? You'll people to stop falling out of the middle class, and I'm not, I'm not sure too much was done. So, yeah, I think that's, that's what I want government to do create opportunity.

50:40 Great, we're going to move on to our next.

50:41 Christian. And

50:44 Mitchell, why don't you ask Patti? The first? Sure. Cuz here's here's the $50,000 question, right? How can, how can we come together after the pandemic and a divisive election this past year?

51:03 I wish I knew the answer.

51:07 I I don't, I mean I'm happy for this opportunity because I think you and I are both seeing that.

51:16 At a very core level, our values are the same.

51:24 I mean, I think for instance, I forget what we're spending a ton of money on. I think I'm buying a bunch of more rum of the vaccines today and

51:38 So, I wonder obviously, there's this unlimited source of money, somewhere that, you know, why can't we?

51:47 Use it in other times, but in any event, the divisive election is a tough one because there are people who, you know, firmly believe it was not the product of a democratic election, and I don't, and I don't know how we we change Minds on that. I wouldn't begin to be able to get.

52:12 Take away cell phone.

52:23 The Sun is setting. How about you?

52:30 Well, like a Boy by bottle at if I had the answer to this one.

52:38 You know, I think, I think you're right.

52:41 After the elections OPP and all those who say they lose the election was stolen and so forth and nnn the reasons people kind of postulated for that. And what they were saying as a, as a Civics teacher, I was somewhat horrified like, okay, like I have not done my job. It just sounds like a whole lot of people didn't understand the way elections work.

53:08 The electric Electoral College, the Constitution. People talk about, I want to change the Constitution and I still have your read. It will know what's in there.

53:27 You know, there was a there was a lot of that, a lot of that, very dramatic, kind of kind of talks.

53:37 When the, when the talk was the election was stolen it. Sadly just kind of developed into this power struggle of. Yes. It was. No, it wasn't an insult worth and we ended up with January 6th. I think what I would like to have seen out of it is an understanding for both parties that

53:57 We have a responsibility to make sure that all Americans, understand, respect and believe in the electoral process. That's the issue. Facing our nation, not who won the issue facing the nation. As we have a large number of people who don't understand respect or believe the electoral process and you eat in a democracy. That's that's fundamental. And so I think we, we missed the boat there and if we can come back to that one, that's a.. Might be a a a star but it is interesting. The Perfect Storm of the that the pandemic happening during this, you know that we had this increasingly divisive time does exacerbated by

54:47 Hopefully, when the pandemic is over, that takes one of the one of the elements away and maybe that reasonable Community will respond. I don't know what his history will have to look back at this one and say yeah, this is the thing that changed it cuz trying to research other points in history. And what was the the change? Maybe, you know, the answer to some of those, right?

55:15 Watch write about this historically, you know, you think about reconstruction in the south after the war. And, you know, you no hard feelings, still going on for Generations, but eventually yeah, we kind of got over that at other times. We've had divisions, you know, I'm thinking of even, you know, race riots a Wars of the, you know, that the race will rock hits of the sixties and seventies and soap or I can wait, you know, we still have our problems but we are not burning down anymore. We do get through it. But I think you're right. Doesn't trigger something happens that we sort of set it aside and and and move on to something else. And

56:05 Maybe I just keep my eye out and

56:08 See what that see. What that is as it unfolds.

56:14 Well, we're going to move on to our last question now. And Patti, wouldn't you start by asking this?

56:20 Mitch was I who you expected me to be.

56:25 In many ways. Yes.

56:29 Just reading your biography. You do come across as a Nana the lawyer piece. I was like not really sure what that what that meant. You know what public defender, I can't say. I've been admiring your barristers bookcase in the back. I think so.

56:55 I think yes, in many ways you were willing to have the conversation with me. I think we both needed to be a little bit Brave. So I see that spark of Love adventure and bravery in you. And I think I would say I'm I'm I'm pleased to say that we could find such common ground on on so many issues, really. At the heart of of of the issues. The details can work themselves out but I think could work was done today. I completely agree. And for the same reasons, I I knew we could talk only because we both signed up for this.

57:40 And so we could and I think your values which are too high out. Now for me to reader our values all say

57:53 Are the kinds of things that Society should get back to sharing?

57:58 I think that was there would be a lot to be said for Less anger and and snap judgments and

58:09 Me versus you, and right and wrong, you know, there's so much gray area and I can, if we start from that, that common ground up.

58:22 Dignity and honesty, you know, yes, I think that would go a long way. So we got to get out of our bubbles, you mentioned earlier, you know, sometimes you're preaching to the choir, right?

58:39 That's right. You ain't talkin about everyone's nodding their head. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

58:46 Yeah, thank you. This is wonderful. Pleased to meet you.

58:51 You too. Thanks.

58:57 Well, thank you both so much. I am just so pleased with how the conversation went going to stop the recording here.