Moira Ross and Emily Hanover

[00:03] EMILY HANOVER: My name is Emily Hanover. I'm 25. It is May 19, 2023. We are in Logan, Utah, and I'm here with Moira, who's one of my best friends.

[00:15] MOIRA ROSS: Cute. My name's Moira ross. I'm also 25. Today is May 19, 2023. We're in Logan, Utah, and I'm here with my friend of 10 plus years, Emily Hanover. I said your full name, so I hope that's okay. Your government name.

[00:36] EMILY HANOVER: My government name.

[00:40] MOIRA ROSS: So I guess we'll start with that one question we have. You want me to answer it? I think we should ask it. Ask me it.

[00:47] EMILY HANOVER: What is your fav. Wait. What is your first memory of me?

[00:52] MOIRA ROSS: I feel like. Well, there's maybe like a boring one that I can't remember right now. But the first memory is when you were hanging out with me and Kenzie. And I don't know whether it was me or Kenzie that decided that you should join our shenanigans. But you came over because we were buddies from soccer and we went up to like the dance room at Kenzie's house and listened to Kelly Clarkson. I do remember that. I don't know what song.

[01:25] EMILY HANOVER: And we rolled on those chairs.

[01:26] MOIRA ROSS: Yes, the rolly chairs that are like. And then we got in trouble with Kenzie's mom and she's like, don't break the rolly chairs. And we didn't care.

[01:33] EMILY HANOVER: So I think we proceeded to break the chairs too.

[01:36] MOIRA ROSS: We. No. Well, we broke something. Yeah. But no one was ever up there, so it doesn't count.

[01:40] EMILY HANOVER: I forgot about that room.

[01:42] MOIRA ROSS: You forgot about that? It doesn't feel real memory. It's liminal space in that area, so that's understandable. I don't know if you have anything to add to that first meeting, but I do think that was our agreeing that it was the first time we met.

[02:00] EMILY HANOVER: I think that was like the first time we hung out. I feel like. Didn't Cheyenne drive us both to school before that moment? Maybe. And I remember coming to pick you up and you would always be late.

[02:13] MOIRA ROSS: Always.

[02:13] EMILY HANOVER: Always. Like we would be sitting in the car for like five minutes waiting for you for like five minutes. And your dad would be petting the cat in the window. It's a vivid memory. And then writing to school in silence.

[02:24] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah.

[02:25] EMILY HANOVER: And I think the Kenzie situation happened after that.

[02:28] MOIRA ROSS: Okay. Yeah. That's how we warmed things up. Well, yeah, I think that that pretty much covers it. Yeah. I'm sure we hung out. We also grew up in the same neighborhood, so I'm sure we hung out occasionally before that. And soccer.

[02:44] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah, soccer. We remember the feud. The game between your team and my team.

[02:50] MOIRA ROSS: Oh, yeah.

[02:51] EMILY HANOVER: And you guys kicked our asses.

[02:52] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah. Yeah, I do remember that.

[02:54] EMILY HANOVER: It was so humiliating.

[02:55] MOIRA ROSS: Accelerators. What was your team again?

[02:58] EMILY HANOVER: Illusion.

[02:59] MOIRA ROSS: Illusion. That's right.

[03:01] EMILY HANOVER: And then the. And every now and then run ins at church too.

[03:05] MOIRA ROSS: True. Yeah. Steak conference. Yeah, that was fun. Or steak events. It doesn't feel real when you think about it, but yeah. I think that kind of leads into the next question, which is funny. Was there a time when you didn't like me? And I'm patiently waiting for this one, so drive carefully.

[03:29] EMILY HANOVER: I'm trying to think. I can't. The. The thing that comes. The time that comes to mind was when one of my roommates was speaking lies into my ear.

[03:41] MOIRA ROSS: Not when I was dating Taylor.

[03:43] EMILY HANOVER: No, I hated Taylor, not you.

[03:46] MOIRA ROSS: That's right.

[03:49] EMILY HANOVER: She was equal.

[03:50] MOIRA ROSS: Not actually.

[03:51] EMILY HANOVER: But she was just something else. Yeah, but yeah, Riley was speaking lies and deceitfulness and hate into my ear about you. And I was like, damn, I can't believe Moira's like that. And I believed it. Yeah, well, mean.

[04:08] MOIRA ROSS: You lived with.

[04:09] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah, I was under the spell. She.

[04:11] MOIRA ROSS: That's what she does. Yeah, she did. I don't know what she does anymore.

[04:15] EMILY HANOVER: Can you go into remission for that?

[04:18] MOIRA ROSS: You can go into remission, but it just isn't always lying. Wait. It's waiting for the right opportunity to manipulate someone. I feel like.

[04:25] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah, I think that was when you were in your fuckboy era and also getting your heart played by Riley. And I was on the wrong side of history for that moment.

[04:34] MOIRA ROSS: Well, you weren't. You were like a silent player. I wasn't on a side. You just lived with her.

[04:38] EMILY HANOVER: I just like kind of stopped talking to you and I was like, damn, I can't believe she's doing that to you.

[04:44] MOIRA ROSS: Right.

[04:44] EMILY HANOVER: And then after she confessed. Well, actually after we caught her. Because then I talked to you and you were like, no, dude, that's not what's happening.

[04:51] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah, and then I told you the.

[04:53] EMILY HANOVER: Full story and then she left.

[04:56] MOIRA ROSS: And you're like, that actually makes a lot more sense than I was told.

[04:59] EMILY HANOVER: So much more sense that I was.

[05:01] MOIRA ROSS: Like, weird gaps and.

[05:03] EMILY HANOVER: No, weird hyperbolic. And it just didn't make sense what her explanation was. So then I felt like a terrible person. I was like, I cannot believe I let this bitch get in between Moira. And I. I was so mad at myself. Oh, well, hopefully I've made it up.

[05:18] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah, I Think it's fine. I think it's. I don't think there's a time I haven't liked you, though.

[05:24] EMILY HANOVER: Oh, come on.

[05:25] MOIRA ROSS: Maybe I didn't. You know what I mean? Like, there's like the absence of liking, but that doesn't mean I disliked you. There was just neutral things.

[05:33] EMILY HANOVER: Okay, when was the absence of liking? When was I just not.

[05:38] MOIRA ROSS: You were kind of a dick in high school.

[05:40] EMILY HANOVER: I was a dick in high school.

[05:41] MOIRA ROSS: So sometimes when you'd say something out of pocket, I'd just be like, screw you, dude. That's fair. But like, it was never dislike. It was just annoyance more than anything.

[05:54] EMILY HANOVER: Dude, high school is.

[05:56] MOIRA ROSS: That's where it all began.

[05:57] EMILY HANOVER: That's where the hatred for many things.

[06:02] MOIRA ROSS: Well, that's what it oscillated towards.

[06:04] EMILY HANOVER: I feel like.

[06:05] MOIRA ROSS: Is. Yeah, just intense. Everything. Everything had to be intense in high school. That's how it felt, though. That's what it is being a teenager. Everything's so intense. And now I look at teenagers and they scare me.

[06:18] EMILY HANOVER: They're so scary, dude. Like, I can't believe we took everything so seriously back then. It wasn't like everything was life or death, everything.

[06:27] MOIRA ROSS: And then I wish we would have done scarier things.

[06:29] EMILY HANOVER: I know.

[06:29] MOIRA ROSS: Honestly, I think I could have gotten it with a lot more shots of.

[06:32] EMILY HANOVER: Monsters instead of shots of liquor.

[06:34] MOIRA ROSS: We are so bad. We're so bad. Split between five people, one monster.

[06:40] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah. And we're like, oh, just a little.

[06:43] MOIRA ROSS: Just take the edge off a little. Okay, well, let's see.

[06:52] EMILY HANOVER: Okay. What makes us such good friends?

[06:58] MOIRA ROSS: I feel like we agree and disagree with each other. The right amount. Where you'll agree with me when I know you want. I want you to. You know I want you to. But when you need to disagree with me, you will.

[07:12] EMILY HANOVER: I like that.

[07:13] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah. The right amount. Because sometimes you need someone who's just going to like, agree with you on something ridiculous. Even though when you know you're the out of pocket one, but. And then slowly guide them to the realization that they're wrong.

[07:29] EMILY HANOVER: Secretly let them down easily.

[07:31] MOIRA ROSS: Yes. And I think we both prefer that.

[07:33] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah.

[07:34] MOIRA ROSS: So it's nice to have someone who will be like, okay, this is where we're at with things and this is the situation. This is what's going on and be real about it. But also.

[07:47] EMILY HANOVER: But also, like, feed the delusional just.

[07:49] MOIRA ROSS: For the right amount of time.

[07:50] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah, let's be delusional for just a moment and like, not accept any fault in any situation. Like, we're always right for this. Moment.

[08:00] MOIRA ROSS: Yes. In fact.

[08:01] EMILY HANOVER: And we can be mad at everyone else. Right.

[08:02] MOIRA ROSS: And then. And then be like, so shocked when you come to the realization that, like, oh, yeah, I realized I was kind of in the wrong. I'm like, what? That's so crazy. I guess I could kind of see that.

[08:14] EMILY HANOVER: Do you guys have a particular instance of delusion? Oh.

[08:21] MOIRA ROSS: There'S probably too many. Is there anything recent? The way you're shuddering, we don't have.

[08:30] EMILY HANOVER: To name names, but the most recent conflict.

[08:34] MOIRA ROSS: Okay. Yes. So true.

[08:36] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah, I fed the delusion.

[08:38] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah. That's what I needed, though.

[08:39] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah.

[08:40] MOIRA ROSS: Because it was. It was kind of out of pocket. But then it's like, okay, then you can chill. And then I was like, okay, I'm chill.

[08:46] EMILY HANOVER: Not the most recent. The one before that.

[08:48] MOIRA ROSS: I don't remember that one.

[08:50] EMILY HANOVER: Because the most recent. I don't think you were being that delusional.

[08:53] MOIRA ROSS: Okay. Because that's what I thought, but I was thinking delusional. That's fair.

[08:56] EMILY HANOVER: But what was the way before that?

[09:00] MOIRA ROSS: I can't remember.

[09:01] EMILY HANOVER: What's another time? I don't know.

[09:04] MOIRA ROSS: There's got to be something. I don't know. I feel like it's usually was be in our single days that we were more delusional. Now that we're in, like, chill relationships, there's not as much delusion, but sometimes, like, you know, explaining a situation to you that, like, could be perceived as romantic, but, like, probably, like 75% of the time shouldn't or isn't. And we're like, yeah, that totally is such a good point. Like, they probably are in love with you too.

[09:43] EMILY HANOVER: Yes.

[09:44] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah, like, that's the typical delusion. And I feel like me and you and sometimes Kenzie would too. But, like, you need somebody who, like a balance of people that will hype you up about that and then other people that'll be like, yeah, that's totally unrealistic.

[10:02] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah. Because I feel like both our partners are just, like, too rational. They're like, no, that's not how it's happening.

[10:09] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah. No. Not even considering.

[10:12] EMILY HANOVER: Just inflate my ego a little bit.

[10:13] MOIRA ROSS: A little bit. Or consider the possibility that things are not realistic. But, yeah, I feel like that's the Pisces energy, just this delusional thing that we both have a little bit. What I thought was interesting is the where will we be in 10 or 20 years? And I think you should answer that first. And I'll build off of whatever you say.

[10:41] EMILY HANOVER: Well, ideally, in 10 years, you haven't left me.

[10:46] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah, I know, I talk about leaving Logan.

[10:49] EMILY HANOVER: I know. You can't leave Logan. I mean, you can.

[10:53] MOIRA ROSS: The Logan never leaves you, though.

[10:55] EMILY HANOVER: That's true. I just think I'm gonna be here.

[10:57] MOIRA ROSS: You think you're gonna be here?

[10:58] EMILY HANOVER: I think that more likely than not.

[11:01] MOIRA ROSS: That's fair.

[11:01] EMILY HANOVER: I'll be here.

[11:02] MOIRA ROSS: The family's here in the cabin and what else?

[11:05] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah. Like the. The ultimate getaway for me.

[11:10] MOIRA ROSS: Yes.

[11:10] EMILY HANOVER: And I think you And I, in 10 years, I think we'll still be friends. I think you're gonna be an aunt to my kids and my children.

[11:18] MOIRA ROSS: You're the one that knows you're going to have kids, so that's fair.

[11:20] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah. I expect like two kids and 10 years.

[11:24] MOIRA ROSS: That's.

[11:25] EMILY HANOVER: That sounds maybe three.

[11:26] MOIRA ROSS: I don't know, maybe three if things get crazy.

[11:28] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah. And you are required to visit.

[11:32] MOIRA ROSS: Okay. Yeah. Because that's the kind of I want, like, the relationship that I have with people's pets, with someone's kids, where it's like, I come visit while they're fun, and as soon as they get annoying, I'm like, here you go. Here's your thing that you own.

[11:46] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah. It's crying are responsible for.

[11:49] MOIRA ROSS: But yes.

[11:51] EMILY HANOVER: And in 20 years, I think we'll be doing the same shit. Like, I think for the most part. Yeah. I think we're just gonna be like, I think you're gonna keep pushing in your career, and I think you're gonna get to a place where you're like, ballin on a budget. Like, you're like, no budget, just vibes. Just vibes. And you're like, your business bitch era is coming in.

[12:14] MOIRA ROSS: True. Especially if it's no kids, no pets.

[12:18] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah.

[12:18] MOIRA ROSS: Can I keep trying to push on a pet and I. Yeah, my. My girlfriend keeps trying to push on a pet and I. We keep arguing. I, I want a cat. And then kind of lists the reasons it's a bad idea and kind of wants a dog. And then I list the reasons it's a bad idea. And I can't disagree on either of the bad idea things. And so it's just plants right now. Lots of plants.

[12:39] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah, I have lots of plants.

[12:41] MOIRA ROSS: Good Strawberry plant. That's about it. That's what I can. I feel like we should backpedal, though. I think we wanted to talk more about the era of high school.

[12:54] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah.

[12:55] MOIRA ROSS: I mean, at least when we discussed earlier.

[12:57] EMILY HANOVER: We do.

[12:59] MOIRA ROSS: Because what was interesting is we were probably friends. The roller era.

[13:07] EMILY HANOVER: The roller, that was like freshman.

[13:09] MOIRA ROSS: That was 15. About 15. So that's almost already 10 years ago, which is crazy.

[13:15] EMILY HANOVER: That is insane.

[13:17] MOIRA ROSS: But, yeah, the Rolly chairs was about 10 years ago when we first met. And then we realized. Well, everyone else realized that there might be some fruitiness inside me, like, to like, maybe. I don't know, maybe like, six months to a year before I did. Or was it just, like, five years and everyone.

[13:36] EMILY HANOVER: No, yeah, it was, like, okay, it was before, but not that far before.

[13:41] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah. I feel like I had no interest in men, which was half the thing. But also, I feel. What was interesting to me is I feel like I unintentionally, but very clearly deterred men away, too. Like, there was no advances on me that I was declining. There was just. They just knew.

[14:00] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah, they knew no chance in hell.

[14:04] MOIRA ROSS: That anything was gonna happen. And I didn't say that, but, yeah. I mean, it doesn't help that my dad was so neurotic about me hanging out with boys, so I hope he blames himself for my queerness.

[14:19] EMILY HANOVER: He turned you gay, dude.

[14:20] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah, bro. He didn't let me, like, be around men at all. So I think that's. That sounds like it was his fault. And I hope he blames himself every day. Things could have been different.

[14:33] EMILY HANOVER: Things could have been different if he would have just.

[14:35] MOIRA ROSS: If I just let her hang out with boys from the ages of 12 to 15. Wouldn't have gone this far.

[14:43] EMILY HANOVER: But, yeah, the rolly Chair and then McDonald's. True.

[14:47] MOIRA ROSS: We worked together at McDonald's for two years. Two years. Yeah. It's at 15 to 17, 16 days.

[14:54] EMILY HANOVER: Me, you, and Kenzie.

[14:55] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Dude, those headsets were too fun. It was always scary when the manager would get on the headset secretly, too. And so you're just, like, talking and, like, you know, and then get caught, like. And they're like, hey, get off. Yeah. Stop chatting on.

[15:10] EMILY HANOVER: Did the whole thing.

[15:11] MOIRA ROSS: That was where it was together.

[15:13] EMILY HANOVER: That was. You were hidden from all.

[15:15] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah.

[15:15] EMILY HANOVER: Responsibilities. And all I had to do is take money.

[15:18] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah, Take money And clean trays, maybe. Well, the trays were at the dishwasher, actually. But the Happy Meals. Shoving the Happy Meals and feeling like you're so productive. That was the most clean job there. The most. All the. All the hot girls got the. Got back there because we could always convince the guys to do the other stuff, which was a good time. Remember we were talking the other day about the advances did begin. Once I figured out my sexuality and embraced that, then guys started being interested in me and trying to convert me. There was a whole thing about the. It was like, this weird Hush, hush. But, like, also, all the cooks would talk about converting me from the. The quote unquote dark side. As if that's the dark side. And they're the most mid.

[16:07] EMILY HANOVER: Dude, there were so many men there in love with you.

[16:10] MOIRA ROSS: They really thought they had the power.

[16:11] EMILY HANOVER: They were, like, so in love with you.

[16:14] MOIRA ROSS: It was the unattainability, really.

[16:15] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah.

[16:16] MOIRA ROSS: I feel like that's what it's always been. If there's ever been men interested in me, they just feel like they're going to get a power trip from converting me, which is so many layers to that.

[16:25] EMILY HANOVER: There's so many to unpack there.

[16:27] MOIRA ROSS: But that's for their therapist, not me to unpack. I don't want to get into that. But the thing. Yeah, alongside this, once you realize you're fruity and Mormon, that stops clicking so much. And we were in, like, the Tumblr test tube of, like, getting all of our information from Tumblr, which was completely contrary to everything we were learning in church. And we were like, oh, my gosh, like, we're so big brain. Like, we solved the universe. Like, we're so much smarter than everyone and we did it. And like, some we'd still go to church on occasion, like to keep up fronts, but we were like, this ain't it.

[17:09] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah. I remember after you came out, right?

[17:12] MOIRA ROSS: Officially.

[17:13] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah. When you came out, I think it was like, pretty close to that, that I quit going to church.

[17:18] MOIRA ROSS: Right.

[17:18] EMILY HANOVER: And I. And it. Because. Was it in the summer or was it during the school year? No, it was during the school year.

[17:24] MOIRA ROSS: I think it was during the school year. But like, right before summer.

[17:27] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah. So then that next year I didn't register for seminary, right. And my dad was like, what the fuck? And I was like, oh, I don't believe in it.

[17:34] MOIRA ROSS: Right.

[17:35] EMILY HANOVER: And like, I feel like you coming out and our little, like, squad. Squad was just, like, festering. And all of us left at, like, the same time.

[17:44] MOIRA ROSS: And it was so empowering that way.

[17:45] EMILY HANOVER: It was so empowering. But then we put ourselves into a new. A new cult.

[17:49] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah. Yeah. With our friend group being so restrictive. We had rules for each other. We had laws and we were clicky.

[17:56] EMILY HANOVER: Like, everyone thought we were, like mean girls, which we kind of were.

[18:00] MOIRA ROSS: We were. Because we were so make it queer kind of. Yeah, it was bad.

[18:05] EMILY HANOVER: What were some of the rules, you guys?

[18:10] MOIRA ROSS: Well, every time there was an event where all of us were there, if you didn't come without, like, an emergency reason, you got a strike.

[18:17] EMILY HANOVER: Strike.

[18:18] MOIRA ROSS: And you only get three strikes.

[18:20] EMILY HANOVER: And at three strikes, what happens? I don't remember.

[18:22] MOIRA ROSS: Well, I think that was it.

[18:23] EMILY HANOVER: Like, you and Jay were the only ones who called each other.

[18:26] MOIRA ROSS: Well, it was. The funny thing is Kaylee was immune. One of our friends was very chill.

[18:31] EMILY HANOVER: She did no wrong ever.

[18:33] MOIRA ROSS: Right. And then our other two friends had a little bit of a. Well, one of them was in charge de facto, because no one else had a personality or confidence yet. Not that hers was fully developed, but she kind of took over and enforced the laws. No one was. Every time you stood up to her, you got a strike.

[18:58] EMILY HANOVER: And if. Like, if we were all getting together and you decided not to go, like, I remember one time, I was like, nah. And I went and hung out with my boyfriend, and it was like, oh.

[19:07] MOIRA ROSS: And we were so ready to come in for our other friend once. She hung out with her boyfriend once.

[19:10] EMILY HANOVER: Yep.

[19:11] MOIRA ROSS: Good times.

[19:12] EMILY HANOVER: So basically, the laws were, if you stray away from the fold.

[19:17] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah.

[19:17] EMILY HANOVER: You.

[19:18] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah.

[19:18] EMILY HANOVER: And, like, you're gonna get scalded.

[19:20] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah. But it felt safe at the time.

[19:22] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah. It was like, okay.

[19:23] MOIRA ROSS: Like, we're. There's still some structure to our lives because everything. We can't.

[19:27] EMILY HANOVER: Like, my personal life was blowing up. Like, my whole family was freaking out that I was leaving the church. Right. And so I was like, okay, you guys, I'm just gonna go with my friends. And it just became like this.

[19:37] MOIRA ROSS: It was. We'd hang out, like, probably, like, three times a week. At least.

[19:40] EMILY HANOVER: At least. And then we worked together, so it was like.

[19:43] MOIRA ROSS: There was a lot of us. Energy.

[19:46] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah. Exchanged at all times, which I think was good. It was good, considering what.

[19:50] MOIRA ROSS: That also kept up the fold, but.

[19:52] EMILY HANOVER: It also kept up the really restrictive life because we were right.

[19:57] MOIRA ROSS: And if you.

[19:58] EMILY HANOVER: And we did ritualistic shit. Dude.

[20:01] MOIRA ROSS: True. It was kind of fun, though.

[20:02] EMILY HANOVER: It was kind of fun. It was our introduction to witches.

[20:07] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah. Witchcraft. Which is so funny because it would, like, be the last thing I'd ever think of being interested in after.

[20:15] EMILY HANOVER: And I don't think we even thought of it as witchy. We were just, like, weird. I don't know.

[20:20] MOIRA ROSS: Witchy wasn't, like, cool like it is now.

[20:22] EMILY HANOVER: No, it wasn't.

[20:23] MOIRA ROSS: It was not allowed. Like, if you. If you thought someone was witchy in high school. When we were in high school, you would be, like, shamed.

[20:32] EMILY HANOVER: Shamed. Bullied.

[20:33] MOIRA ROSS: It would be. Yeah. And hushed whispers as you walked by. And, like, I think she's a twig in her hair.

[20:40] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah.

[20:44] MOIRA ROSS: So, yeah. We definitely didn't think of it like that. It was just. But that's what's funny about any religion. It always starts out as a cult. It's just someone says these are the rules you should live by. And then as that becomes more accepted, then everyone's like, oh, of course those are the rules you should live by. But that's not always the case. It's until it's widely adopted. Like, I can't imagine going to a different country where Christianity isn't the norm because it's so. Especially like Catholicism, obviously Mormonism in Utah. But even like Catholicism in the US is so like deeply rooted in everything, like the devil and God and every single show. And like the good and the bad. And it's so. Runs so deep. So it's just funny how it works that way. But yeah. Then. Then we decided to join a friend cult after that with rules and the articles.

[21:47] EMILY HANOVER: The articles.

[21:49] MOIRA ROSS: I forgot about the articles.

[21:50] EMILY HANOVER: And what was hope points?

[21:52] MOIRA ROSS: Oh yeah. There were hope points to encourage us to undo our chastity culture, essentially.

[22:01] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah.

[22:02] MOIRA ROSS: To really go on the opposite end.

[22:04] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah.

[22:04] MOIRA ROSS: Which made sense at the time, but doesn't make any sense looking back.

[22:10] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah. And if you were in a relationship, every point was half. Like all of your points got halved.

[22:15] MOIRA ROSS: I forgot about that. And you only got points the first time anything happened. I forgot that. Wasn't it Kenzie.

[22:22] EMILY HANOVER: I think Kenzie. I would have if it wasn't because I was in a relationship.

[22:25] MOIRA ROSS: True. I think I like maybe would have gotten it the next year, but I.

[22:30] EMILY HANOVER: Think it was Kenzie.

[22:31] MOIRA ROSS: I think it was still Kenzie. I think it was close second. But it wasn't. And then our other friends already had like relationships. So half points and no new fresh points. You're just down to lose.

[22:45] EMILY HANOVER: So we really encourage not being in relationships.

[22:49] MOIRA ROSS: No wonder Kenzie. Poor Kenzie.

[22:53] EMILY HANOVER: Maybe that's why because she was the reigning champion. The impact it has today.

[23:01] MOIRA ROSS: Our other good friend was nervous, I feel like to get into a relationship. And I can't help but think that some of it's due to being Hoe queen two years reigning champion.

[23:12] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah.

[23:13] MOIRA ROSS: That has to have an effect on you psychologically. I feel like I made so many poor decisions because of hope points. Like, I'm surprised that I didn't get like something like.

[23:31] EMILY HANOVER: And it continued through the first year of college.

[23:33] MOIRA ROSS: True.

[23:34] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah. The friend cult was still alive. First year.

[23:37] MOIRA ROSS: Yes. First year of college. And then we. It fizzled out. But then I don't. Did it was there. There wasn't any fanfare or anything though. Right. It just fizzled out.

[23:46] EMILY HANOVER: Didn't something happen with you and Kenzie and Katie didn't. Like, some weird things were happening because you guys were at the U when Katie started being weird.

[23:56] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah, because she was in.

[23:58] EMILY HANOVER: Then it just fell out.

[23:59] MOIRA ROSS: She was across the bridge is what we would say. There was two dorms.

[24:03] EMILY HANOVER: I don't remember, like, a specific blow up that ended.

[24:06] MOIRA ROSS: No, I think it was just like, meh. We had new friends. Yeah, everyone had college friends. But I remember me and Kenzie lived in the dorms across the bridge. And so we'd say, oh, they live across the bridge. Because what was. What's the bridge called? The really big bridge across the U. University of Utah. You know what I'm talking about?

[24:25] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah, I know. What bridge? Legacy bridge.

[24:27] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah. So it's this huge bridge that's like. I don't even know. It feels like it's like half a mile long. It's pretty. It's over a freeway or highway, so it's tall and long. But on one side, which is further. That's the side we were on. Further from campus is where we were and all the other poor people. And then the rich honors kids got to live on the Kush side, or Lassonde, which was also the, like, smart, rich, techie business people. Both on the opposite side. They got the Kush life. And they had. They had maids that would come and clean their thing like insane. They had in. They had like two restaurants inside, and maids would come and clean up weekly. And they had. We, me and Kenzie just were in a huge room with those terrible bunk beds and concrete floor that I swear the carpet didn't have any padding. I swear that it was. And I don't know how, like, one. One time one of our friends came to, like, have a concert, and they're like, hey, can we stay with you guys? And we're like, sure, yeah, you're gonna have to sleep on the floor, but you can. And so literally all they brought was sleeping bags and they were on the floor. And that just goes to show how much, like, more frail I feel. Because at like 18, you're like, that's fine. Yeah, I can sleep on concrete. But if I did that, yeah, if I did that now, I'd be feeling it for a week at least. And I can't imagine if I'm older, but yeah, I think that mostly covers the chaos that our friend group was.

[26:01] EMILY HANOVER: Just.

[26:03] MOIRA ROSS: Controlling and awkward. And yet it's a wonder it took me so long to come out. Meanwhile, everyone was giving me such a hard time. Everyone not Just you guys, though me.

[26:14] EMILY HANOVER: But I feel like there wasn't a huge reaction at the school. Like, no. Everyone was just like, well, everyone's too.

[26:18] MOIRA ROSS: Scared to say anything. Like, they might have feelings or thoughts about it. But the culture here is to just know and not say anything.

[26:25] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah. And talk behind.

[26:27] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah. I kind of. I kind of wish people would say something, but I think people are afraid. I feel like I intimidate people and, like, they just don't want to say anything to me.

[26:38] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah.

[26:39] MOIRA ROSS: They're just. I don't know. I don't think it's just me, but I think it's like, the. I don't know what the conversation.

[26:47] EMILY HANOVER: Right. Like, what are they gonna say? They can talk a big game behind your back. When it comes to actually, like, face to face. Like, what are you gonna do? Hurt their feelings? Like, what's the point about.

[26:56] MOIRA ROSS: Kyler would get called.

[26:57] EMILY HANOVER: That's true.

[26:58] MOIRA ROSS: Slurs.

[26:59] EMILY HANOVER: That's true.

[27:00] MOIRA ROSS: And that was just like a year before I came out. But he also wasn't white.

[27:05] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah.

[27:06] MOIRA ROSS: That plays into.

[27:06] EMILY HANOVER: That's another.

[27:07] MOIRA ROSS: When you're at a hick high school, feel entitled to say things to people.

[27:15] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah. And Sorrel got a lot of crap, too.

[27:20] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah. We had a. Another kind of mutual friend that received a hard time for that. But, yeah. So interesting to think about. I feel like I don't see most of the people anymore. I mean, occasionally, but I don't run in the same circles as most people, aside from you and our other friends, but people that I choose to see. It's what I was thinking about with high school that's so interesting and that I, like, was so excited to get out of. But also, sometimes Ms. Is just being around people that you would otherwise spend no time with. And now as an adult, I just don't have to spend time with people that suck. And it's so weird. And then people that suck, you know, come into my personal space and I'm like, oh, this is terrible. It feels so much worse. But I was so immune to it. Like, everyone just sucked in my. For the most part, we all just sucked. Everyone just sucks. It's high school. Everyone's a teenager. But yeah, the last question is, do you think we'll ever lose touch with each other? Which I feel like we kind of already answered, though. So.

[28:28] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah, I think that we'll probably talk less.

[28:33] MOIRA ROSS: Sure.

[28:33] EMILY HANOVER: Like, I can see that. But I don't think we'll ever lose touch.

[28:36] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah. Not completely. Well, I think the thing I've heard is, like, if you're friends with someone for over seven years. You're friends for life. So you're stuck with me for better or worse. I know. You're so bummed.

[28:51] EMILY HANOVER: Meanwhile, I'm, like, pleading with you not to move.

[28:53] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah, I know. Even though. Yeah. Now, well, my. My work wants me to stay here and they, you know, give me things, so I'm like, okay, I guess this is fine.

[29:04] EMILY HANOVER: You guess? Yeah, I guess.

[29:07] MOIRA ROSS: Meanwhile, it's great, so can't complain, but. Well, was there anything else?

[29:23] EMILY HANOVER: I don't know.

[29:24] MOIRA ROSS: Don't know or don't think so or.

[29:29] EMILY HANOVER: I don't know. We could, you know the typical talk about Mormons and leaving the church.

[29:35] MOIRA ROSS: Oh, that's right.

[29:37] EMILY HANOVER: Expound on that.

[29:38] MOIRA ROSS: That's true. Well, the thing that I forgot to mention earlier that I thought was interesting is during the whole coming out thing, I kind of got lucky because, like, six months after coming out, they legalized gay marriage. And then that spurred the whole conversation. That really stuck the nail in any coffin that was, you know, surviving about Mormon belief, about them being like, so just because the government says it's okay doesn't mean that we think it's okay. God says no. God still says no, forever and always until we no longer can survive until we say, okay, fine.

[30:10] EMILY HANOVER: Until our PR gets bad enough.

[30:11] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah, that really. Membership rates are dropping and, you know, we really got to do something. Just like I'm sure they said that about, you know, people of color not being able to receive the priesthood, you know, so they said that would never change.

[30:26] EMILY HANOVER: Oh, for sure.

[30:27] MOIRA ROSS: Well, and they used to. They were really strict about it, too, where it was not just like, oh, you can't get married in the temple if you're not straight, but it was if you have. If you're a child of gay parents, you can't come to Mormonism because isn't.

[30:43] EMILY HANOVER: That still a thing?

[30:44] MOIRA ROSS: It might still be. I don't know. I would have assumed they would have.

[30:48] EMILY HANOVER: Or they have to, like, if they want to be baptized, they have to completely, like, forsake and be like, what my parents do is wrong and pretty.

[30:57] MOIRA ROSS: Much, like, cut them off.

[30:58] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah. Which is interesting.

[31:01] MOIRA ROSS: Well, that's because it's like the brainwashing runs too deep, and you already have seen too much of the real world that at such a young age, and that's normalized. And then you'd come and infect the people that don't think that's okay and might start changing opinions, and that couldn't. Couldn't happen. But that really. I was Just like every. For, like, probably like two or three months. I feel like that's all they talked about after it was legalized. It was like, oh, by the way, this is the mandatory public service announcement for the week. Being gay still, it's not. Okay. Looking at all of you and, okay, cool. Have a good Sunday.

[31:39] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah.

[31:41] MOIRA ROSS: Like, there may have been other things going on during the quote unquote lesson that were metaphors that were stretching all the dirty sock metaphors or the.

[31:55] EMILY HANOVER: Do you remember that?

[31:56] MOIRA ROSS: Oh, that's what it would be like if you were. If you were. Which is so funny. Like, there's laundry now and. But the. I think it was Kenzie telling us about it, like, in her ward. They would say, if you break the law of chastity, then you're like a dirty sock and you should not love yourself anymore, essentially. But it's like, we live in the age of laundry and the metaphor is just so weak.

[32:22] EMILY HANOVER: Or like, they could have been like, but if you repent. Right. Put it in the washing machine.

[32:28] MOIRA ROSS: But they. They only. You only find that out if you come to the bishop's office and confess that your. Your sins can be atoned.

[32:35] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah.

[32:35] MOIRA ROSS: Which. That's. The other one that was always so common is like the. You put food coloring in a glass of water, and they're like, this is the atonement. And then it's bleach. And it's like, look, you can't even see the food coloring anymore. That's what it does, bro. Like, that is the truth. And I'm like, yes, dude. Yes, that's it.

[33:00] EMILY HANOVER: Can I ask how both of your parents reacted to both leaving the church.

[33:05] MOIRA ROSS: And also perhaps your sexuality?

[33:07] EMILY HANOVER: Yes, that's right. We didn't.

[33:11] MOIRA ROSS: That's true. Yeah. Because. Well, my dad tried to make me go for a while, and I just told him, like, screw you. Enough to him trying to control my life that he realized that wasn't the thing to push on. And I would tell him repeatedly, which, you know, finally did it, but that, you know, you keep treating me like this. I'm not gonna talk to you once I move out. And he didn't believe me, and then I did, and that's funny. But he would try to make me go to church or anything. I think I would get grounded if I didn't go to Young Women's on Tuesdays, which is a supplemental activity because not going. You go to church weekly. And then once you're 12 to 18, you have to go on usually, like, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Ours was Tuesday. Every Week and go hang out with other tweens and teenagers in the ward and do something. Which some of it wasn't so bad, but I'd have to go. And that's what sucked about it, is having to go. And then when. When he. When he found out that I didn't want to go to church anymore, he, like, freaked out and was like, well, what do you believe in? I tried to, like, pick apart whatever new belief system he thought that. Well, because the idea is that you have to believe in something. It's like, okay, so is it Buddhism? Are you a Muslim now? And I'm like, no, I'm just not Mormon anymore, bro. That's as simple as that. Like. And he's like, well, do you believe in Jesus? I'm like, yeah. And he's like, well, no, no. Like, do you believe in him? And I was like, he was a good guy. And he's like, no, but, like, the atonement. And I'm like, I don't know. Like. And yeah, I don't know. I'm not that far yet. I just know. Not this.

[35:00] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah.

[35:01] MOIRA ROSS: I don't have to know what I want to do yet. I can also just know. Not this. So. Yeah. What about your parents? About.

[35:10] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah, I have seven siblings.

[35:14] MOIRA ROSS: That's right.

[35:15] EMILY HANOVER: Who are all still Mormon.

[35:17] MOIRA ROSS: True.

[35:18] EMILY HANOVER: And when I, like, he found out I didn't register for seminary, which is like, church at school for an hour.

[35:26] MOIRA ROSS: You go off campus 100ft.

[35:28] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah. You're in a church building.

[35:31] MOIRA ROSS: Right.

[35:32] EMILY HANOVER: You get lessons. So I didn't register for that. So I was like, I'm just gonna hope that they don't know that I don't register for this.

[35:39] MOIRA ROSS: Right.

[35:39] EMILY HANOVER: He found out and sat me down.

[35:42] MOIRA ROSS: Oh, right.

[35:43] EMILY HANOVER: And was like, so, what's going on? And I was like, I don't believe in it anymore. And I gave him my reasons. And then it was like a two hour session of him, like, yelling at me, telling me I was gonna go to hell, which. Cool. I don't know. And then they would wake me up every Sunday morning to go to church and I. Yeah. And they would just like, yell up the stairs, like, it's time for church. And I'd be like, no. And then that was the extent of it. Yeah. And then when I graduated, I was like, get me the fuck out of here. Moved out. And then I just recently, like, came out to my family, like, two years ago, and they didn't respond well. Like, all my siblings did. They've all been super wonderful about it, but my parents are just old fashioned and Mormon. So it's been like a long time for me to build the boundaries. And I feel like I've established some pretty solid boundaries with my parents. And so now I finally, at 25, feel like, okay, I can, like, now build a relationship. Possibly.

[36:50] MOIRA ROSS: Mm.

[36:51] EMILY HANOVER: Because the boundaries are established, which I feel fortunate that they are actually respecting them.

[36:56] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah.

[36:57] EMILY HANOVER: Because that's not usually the story.

[36:58] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah. Well, I mean, the nice thing about boundaries, especially when you keep them, is the person is either realized that they have to respect you or not have a relationship with you. And then they start to, you know, realize, is it worth it to force my ways upon.

[37:18] EMILY HANOVER: Is my religion more important than my child? Right. In my relationship with my child. Like, I didn't talk to my parents for almost a year.

[37:23] MOIRA ROSS: True.

[37:23] EMILY HANOVER: And then after that they were like, okay, yeah, like, we'll respect you.

[37:27] MOIRA ROSS: Mm.

[37:27] EMILY HANOVER: So it took a long time, but eventually I feel like, I mean, even when Davis, my husband, like, was talking to my dad about proposing.

[37:37] MOIRA ROSS: That's right.

[37:37] EMILY HANOVER: My dad was like, well, you guys are going to get married in the temple. And Davis has never been Mormon. He's like, no. Right.

[37:43] MOIRA ROSS: And how long was that after you told that?

[37:44] EMILY HANOVER: What?

[37:45] MOIRA ROSS: That's from the seminary talk.

[37:47] EMILY HANOVER: Five years.

[37:48] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah.

[37:49] EMILY HANOVER: So they're still hoping, they're still holding this. I'm like, I don't know how long it's going to take you all to believe this, but to realize it's not happening. We're not raising our kids there. We're not doing that.

[37:58] MOIRA ROSS: Yes.

[37:58] EMILY HANOVER: And they're still like. But never say never. Okay. If that's what makes you feel better.

[38:03] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah. If that's what makes you have a relationship with me, I guess.

[38:07] EMILY HANOVER: Sure. Just don't talk to me about it.

[38:09] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah. And they know that now. Well, if you remember, my coming out story is so funny. So my.

[38:17] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah, you need to talk. Father found out.

[38:20] MOIRA ROSS: My father, being the person he is, was. I was hanging out with my girlfriend in my room. We were in a basement. So, you know, there's like those tiny windows that are like 1 foot by 2ft tiny. And we were hanging out, doing homework, but then we were kissing because as girlfriends do teenagers. And he saw us because he was doing his guard route, I don't know, just. Just circling the area to make sure that I was doing Mormon things. And just, you know, of course, peering into this tiny window, which, you know, it's so hard to get an angle. So he was being very decisive. This is the kind of person he is. And saw that and then afterwards, took. It's so funny. I can remember it. He has this iPad out and had this stupid Otterbox case. And it's like, it was so busted and dirty. And he's like, I took pictures of your journal that say you love your girlfriend and you can't hide it because I took pictures. So if you get rid of the journal, I'll know. And I was like, dude, you're so psycho. And so that's how he found out. And so he. I don't know. He just, like, confronted me at some point after having seen that. I think it was like the day of. Or day after having seen me and my girlfriend and then confronts me, and I was just like, what of it? And like, okay. And like, I think I, like, denied it for a bit. Just was like, oh, you know, it's just this one thing and whatever. Yeah. Like, played it down to the point where practicing.

[40:01] EMILY HANOVER: So when we kiss boys, we know what we're doing.

[40:03] MOIRA ROSS: Yes. Period. Someone's gotta. You gotta practice with someone for the real thing.

[40:11] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah.

[40:12] MOIRA ROSS: And they're great, and I love them. So he found that and then called me out. And then I was, like, playing it down. And then, like, a few weeks or a month or, you know, a little bit later, he, like. I don't know. He just was sure of it this time. He's like, no, I know now. And, like, you know, starts explaining to me that awkward. Like, if you have to. Like. He was just, like, talking about dildos, but, like, you know, such a roundabout, really cursed way and being like, if you have to replicate it, then that means that. And God. And if you. And, you know, and like. And then the fact that.

[40:53] EMILY HANOVER: That's his argument. He's like, you don't have a penis.

[40:55] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah. Well, your partner will not have a penis. And they have to pretend they do in order for it to be satisfactory, which shows how little he knows about, you know, women.

[41:04] EMILY HANOVER: Yeah.

[41:05] MOIRA ROSS: There's such little knowledge. And so that. And then I was just like, okay, cool. That's wild. And. Yeah. But that's how he found out. And he wasn't happy, but that's okay.

[41:23] EMILY HANOVER: Damn.

[41:24] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah. He's still not happy.

[41:27] EMILY HANOVER: I'm sure he's still not happy and he never will be.

[41:29] MOIRA ROSS: That's okay. But I'm glad we did it. We did the conversation.

[41:34] EMILY HANOVER: We did it. Thank you.

[41:35] MOIRA ROSS: Yeah. Thank you.