Nada Ismael and Stan Gordon

00:00 Hi, my name is Netta, I am 22 years old, and I live in Charlottesville, Virginia. Today's date is December 20, 2022, and my conversation partner's name is Stan.

00:12 Hi, my name is Stan and I am a snowbird living in both Afton Virginia and Sanibel, Florida. And my conversation is with Netta

00:30 Awesome. All righty, so the first question I want to ask both of you is, what made you want to participate in a one small step conversation?

00:42 Ladies first.

00:44 Thank you. So I have spent some time actually being a part of the one small step project at the start of this semester, and since starting the experience as a facilitator, I have really just been aching to have my own conversation because I just really enjoy being on the other side of this process. But I'm really grateful to be able to finally be a part of an actual one small step conversation, because again, I just enjoy it so much and it's sometimes hard to not want to interject and kind of being a part of it. So I'm grateful to be able to be on that other side.

01:22 Great. In response, I would say that I too share the excitement about having a discussion and in the context of Mister Jefferson's university, who always encouraged dialogue, not monologue. And in that spirit, I am. I was quite as an alumnus, and I'm assuming Netta has a UVA connection, either a student or you are a student. So I was very excited to find out about this program that I feel is much needed, especially in our contemporary times, where recent and civil discourse is encouraged in terms of understanding one another, which in our country as citizens, which again, I feel is so absolutely important going forward for the health of our country.

02:39 Thank you both for sharing that. So, before I pass it on to you, we have one last question that we always start our conversations off, which is to ask you to read what your partner wrote about themselves as an introduction. And we do this to kind of give you both the chance to put yourself in your partner's shoes for a minute and read out how they describe themselves. And then it'll give you the opportunity for a few minutes, if there are any immediate questions you have that jump out to follow up on them with your partner. So you'll each take turns reading out your partner's bio, and then once you've both done so, you can ask any immediate questions. And then, just for the record, I just want to make sure we're saying your name right on the tape. So can you say it one more time for us? Netta. Netta. Okay, so if you want to start Netta, reading Stan's, and then, Stan, you can read Netta's, and then I'll hop off camera. Sure. Okay. So Stan's bio. Hi, my name is Stan. I grew up in Venezuela and Colombia. Now I live in Afton Virginia and Sanibel Florida, and I have been living there since 2010. I'm currently retired. Significant life events that have shaped me, shaped who I am, include growing up in a third world country and then moving here at age 15. The things the most important to me are faith, family, friends, fitness, and finances. My hobbies include gardening, politics, and soccer.

04:11 Okay. And I'll read Netta's My name is Netta and I call Bealton Virginia home. Though I have spent a great, a good bit of my life living throughout parts of northern Virginia while I was born in the US. My parents are originally from Upper Egypt, making me nubian Egyptian as well. I am deeply passionate about pursuing a career and helping others, uplifting voices, and being a part of the change that so many of us hope to see in the world. And I trust that my life will provide many avenues for me to do so. I went to McLean High School, speaking of Laura, Virginia. So I have northern Virginia roots there, too.

04:58 Nice. Okay. I lived a little bit further down. So I was in. I spent some time, actually in Chantilly, and then before that it was Springfield. So those were kind of early years of my life. You know, elementary school, so cow pasture.

05:15 When I was in high school there, in which area that it just started, Chantilly was a new community.

05:25 Oh, that's interesting. That's what it feels like right now. In.

05:29 Built in also. Yeah. Bilton be even further south, I guess, or in a path of development anyway, so.

05:38 Yeah.

05:38 Oh, anyways, we have that too, as common ground to share in terms of northern Virginia background.

05:45 Yeah, sure. Sure thing. I actually was really curious about your mention of growing up, at least for a little bit of your life in Venezuela and Colombia. I'd be curious to kind of know more about your experience, if there's things that you remember from your time there, in a way.

06:05 You said Colombia tells me you must know some Spanish.

06:09 I don't actually know much Spanish, but I am a little bit familiar with latin american history.

06:14 Okay, Colombia. Yeah. So to tell you about that, my parents were missionaries in Colombia and Venezuela. And at the time, in the early fifties, that was a time of great religious persecution amongst christians, much like it had been in the Europe earlier, in the context in which Jefferson, you know, founded the university. And to the extent where he said, this will be the first non religious based university. And partly out of, you know, the sad history of contention between, even within the christian church. So their main focus was, at that time, the catholic faith was very one and the same with the government, and they would not allow protestant children to attend public school. So their main focus was building schools in order to provide education for those of a faith that happened to be a little different than that, than the state faith. So that, you know, segues very well in terms of what Jefferson wanted in UVA, in terms of not a state mandated or even university mandated faith like it was at Oxford back in the day when Newton and so forth, they had to get a divinity degree as being mandatory, in addition to what their, you know, liberal arts or science degree was. So. So I'm very proud of my parents, what they did. It was a tremendous service for people who were oppressed and, of all things, were not allowed to have a public education simply based on their personal choice of faith, which goes back even back to the origins of why my ancestors came to the America. Because strangely and ironically, my. The original two Gordon brothers were from Northern Ireland. They were originally scottish, but moved over. They were catholic, and the english monarch was protestant. And so they were heavily oppressed. In the 1720s, they came over and landed on the shores of Virginia to start their own future life. So, sadly, human history is such that we tend to repeat poor behavior. And I believe it's important to have the intention of leaving behind, especially when you have children and grandchildren, a better situation than what we have been faced with. So, yeah, at age 15, then I came back. We came back to the States, primarily, my parents were concerned about getting, again, education. My parents were very focused on education. My father, in World War Two, was virtually the first to go to college on the GI Bill. So his whole career was really focused on education. So I have a great affinity and concern, really and truly, as to how our children are educated, especially in the current day and time. It's been a, you know, a source of great, how would you say, contention, especially there in northern Virginia, as you all know, Lownde county, and, by the way, Fairfax county. I'm just so appreciative of the education I had when I graduated there in 73 and the quality of teachers that I had, which propelled me forward to uva and to my eventual career. So, in response, Nate, I would ask that you've outlined in general what has shaped you and your parents being immigrants for. Or were they, are you first generation? First generation, yes. So there had to be a reason for them to leave, I guess, to come to America. And I just was curious if you'd relate that.

11:18 Yeah. So for my parents, I think for them, it was, of course, for, you know, a better opportunity for their children. My dad, though, he had spent a little bit of his early life between Paris and England. His father worked in England and his mother was living in Aswan in Upper Egypt. And so he kind of spent a good bit of time in both spaces getting his early education a little bit in Aswan, then kind of shifting that to the UK and then spending some time between the UK and Paris because of my grandfather living there. And so go ahead.

12:08 Grandfather in Paris living there, you say?

12:11 Grandfather living? Yeah, between Paris and England due to work.

12:15 And so grandfather was where?

12:20 So he lived in England, but due to work, sometimes he'd be between England and Paris, so my dad would just travel with him.

12:29 Oh, okay. I get it now.

12:32 Yeah. And so, you know, whenever my parents, you know, met and, you know, planning to get married and everything, there was kind of this assumption that my mom would probably be leaving as well, just to be with my dad, of course.

12:49 Living in Paris or England then.

12:54 Yes. So my mom was living in Upper Egypt. So my dad returned back from a trip, I believe is how the story goes. And he went to this, essentially, my mom was working at a botanical garden at the time, in Aswan. Aswan, Egypt, in a botanical garden. My mom was working in a botanical garden, yes. And my dad visited and then. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And so that's how they met, you know, and then, you know, they, after getting married and everything, they moved to Paris. And I believe then that's around when they had been applying in order to come to the states. And so not even, I think, a couple months after that, my mom found out that she was pregnant with me, and then I was born here. And so I've visited Egypt a number of times in my early life. I mean, we used to go kind of every summer, every other summer or so as I kind of got older and, you know, people started to get busier. I certainly got busier. But it's been some time since I've been back, and I really do miss it. I know it's, you know, there's certainly a lot of different things happening today as compared to maybe like a decade ago, which is probably my last kind of recollection of my time there. But all of my extended family, aunts, uncles, are kind of in the pocket of Upper Egypt, Cairo, Alexandria. And then I do have some relatives as well, like my aunt who's in the UK, and I actually just visited her last summer, which is, I think, a family member that I just hadn't, you know, of my extended family that I hadn't seen in so long just as a result of not being able to, you know, really just travel. Covid obviously kind of pushed that back a little bit as well. So. So, yeah, that's. That's a little bit into that story.

15:05 Could you synthesize your parents outlook and their, in terms of choosing to emigrate to the United States and what impressed them in a more specific way about looking forward to a future in the United States?

15:31 Honestly, I would say the very kind of cliche but honest answer is opportunity. I think in Upper Egypt, in Aswan specifically, there isn't in terms of social services and your access to education and healthcare, job opportunity, it's very limited. In a lot of Egypt, it is limited. There's a very clear issue that's just kind of at play behind all of the tourism and enjoyment. There are very real economic issues on top of, you know, being in a space like that. Also having the aspect of being nubian in Egypt is a very different identity than just strictly egyptian nubian. Egyptians are, you know, indigenous to both kind of that region between Sudan and Egypt, which used to historically be nubia. And, you know, as a result of the construction of the Aswan high dams. Aswan Low Dam, you know, under the british administrative rule, Aswan High dam under President Nasser in the sixties, they were kind of forced to move either towards Sudan or further up in Egypt. And so I've noticed that as a result of that, there hasn't necessarily been a lot of development to the infrastructure and again, the services and such that exist there. And so it'd be really difficult. And I've noticed it's still very much a challenge for a lot of family members that I know living there to really access these things and to really access a means of social mobility. I think that's what a lot of people, when we think of the opportunities that exist here, there is something to be said about being able to mobilize as a result of being able to have access to education and other forms of employment. And so I would say that that was a huge, huge motivator for my parents, and I'm very grateful for that.

17:48 What they were looking for in terms of what has traditionally been termed the american dream.

17:57 Very much so, yeah. Yeah.

17:59 Because again, I very much appreciate our common background in terms of a perspective outside of this country. That we now live in. Although you haven't been born here, first generation, your parents were not, and they must have certainly related a deep appreciation for the opportunity that is exist here as opposed to where they came from, which I'll just quickly relate. I had actually, when I graduated from UVA and then I'm a retired dentist, had finished dental school in Richmond. I actually had thoughts of going back to Venezuela to practice. And as things have turned out there in Venezuela, I am certainly grateful that I did not pursue that avenue instead state here in the states. So, and, but I'm a very, very, just so you know, I'm a very big proponent of the american dream because I came here and my family, you know, we were missionaries. You know, you didn't have any money. And so we came back when I was 15. And basically, you know, we were in a very low socioeconomic category. But through education, all four of my brothers and I, we succeeded and worked hard.

19:45 Yeah.

19:45 And now enjoy the benefits of that, you know, which again, I'm sure your parents could see there was a glass ceiling, so to speak, in terms of a social structure. And even it sounds like your mother was in some way viewed negatively by the egyptian people, I guess, as far as her ethnic background, which is sadly, you know, a common thing in the world.

20:22 Yeah, I would say not necessarily viewed negatively, but there's definitely social underlying social issues that still persist in Egypt, you know, because I would say, like for Aswan, for example, it's, you know, there's a huge nubian population there. So kind of living amongst your community members, nubian community members, you know, that was kind of commonplace. And I think, like, I wouldn't say that if, for example, I were to go to Egypt and, you know, be speaking with Egyptians as a nubian Egyptian, that it would, that there's any, there's ever been any concern for that. But I would say that from a sort of, you know, from that ability to sort of access those services, that persists throughout Egypt. But I think there is something to be said about the impact of being forced to kind of move as a result of these huge infrastructure projects that has definitely pushed Nubians behind in their ability to kind of access those kind of services. And I think it's kind of interesting. You mentioned wanting to, after graduating from dental school, being, wanting to go back and open a practice there. And I have a lot of that same desire to, with whatever kind of avenue that I pursue, want to go back and contribute to the development of infrastructure of schools and health facilities and such throughout Aswan, throughout Egypt, really, I think at some point I will be able to do that. I want to be able to do that. I think that, you know, it's hard for me to kind of, with everything that does happen there and with all the challenges and I think with the limited access to be able to do something about it, with my capacity to have more access to that, it almost really, for me, it feels like an imperative to want to do something like that. And, you know, I'm sorry that, you know, in the circumstance that you describe, I know that economically, you know, as a result of some of the political changes in Venezuela, like there have definitely been, it's been difficult to be able to actually pursue that. So.

22:43 Yeah, no.

22:46 Oh, I definitely finish your thoughts, Stan. I was just gonna say once you've.

22:51 Kind of finished this along with point as far as what Netta And I certainly, absolutely appreciate that feeling of wanting to, and I believe out of a sense of gratitude for what you've enjoyed to give back and, and provide that to your ancestors that, you know, cannot. I would only caution being a guy with a lot of gray hair, obviously, that have been through this journey that what I noticed in my parents was we typically believe that and set goals and expectations that are lofty.

23:42 Sure.

23:43 But as the old chinese proverb says, the journey of a thousand miles starts with one step and we may not. And my parents, obviously the way it worked out in Venezuela, sadly, was not the way they would have ever envisioned for the people of Venezuela because the people of Venezuela are even. I'll just cut to the chase. Per capita income is less than that of Haiti. Now, when we left there, it was the wealthiest nation in the southern hemisphere who would have drained a this would be the case and that their people that they helped were facing actually starvation, even to the point of cannibalism. I still have friends there who relate and you don't hear about this in the media. So I, as a young person at your age, I applaud your that thought, but at the same time would caution you that you can only do what you can do and be gratitude. And I would say be happy with that because I know my parents had greater expectations that their work would have made a bigger impact. But this is the nature of the world. But the beauty is that you who have done your best and like they did, absolutely impact lives that to this day will reflect that in their personal lives how my parents helped them, especially in education. So just that word of caution, because as young people, we have tend to have lofty, you know, ideals and not a realization of what the world can really be like and what other forces are that can clash against what we would dream if I to do. But more power to you. Netta

25:58 Thank you. So I just wanted to jump in to transition us into some of those kind of. You've talked a lot, actually, of formative memories and childhood. Um, but thinking about the early political memories and moving into that kind of discussion of influential people and ideologies. Um, netta, I'll let you kind of start off with some questions, if you'd like. Um, but would like to kind of transition into that. That phase. Okay. Um, so one of the questions, in part, on formative memories, is, can you recall your earliest memory of politics?

26:37 So, of course, living in Venezuela and Colombia, politics were there, and politics were back in the states. And so the politics of Venezuela and Colombia were such that we had no ability to participate in, you know, as far as voting and so forth. So I was not as engaged in that. But certainly, looking back to the states, my earliest real focus on politics had to do with the 1964 presidential election, which Barry Goldwater of Arizona was facing John F. Kennedy at the time. And so we were certainly proponents of Barry Goldwater. And looking back with what has been found now, there were election issues in Arizona at that time, as well as other places that more or less caused the election of John F. Kennedy instead. So that was now. We didn't know to the time, but it's always 50, 70 years old, 70 years later that the truth really comes out, sadly, in terms of what was really going on, because things are typically hidden purposely until a generation or more later, those truths come out. So we're learning more and more now. And so it had to do a lot with the us involvement in Latin America. And John F. Kennedy was very involved in terms of fighting, as you well know, probably from learning history, the incursion of communist influence in our hemisphere, namely being Cuba. And so we didn't have television or anything, but we had shortwave radio and Radio havana. Cuba was a powerful influence into South America, Venezuela especially. And basically, it was nothing but lies and propaganda that sadly affected the venezuelan people's minds to where they ended up. You know, they chose the path they went into, and now they've. Those that are now awake have lived to regret it, obviously, seeing what's happened to their country. But it had to do with, again, sadly, as Jefferson said, the health of a democracy is dependent on informed and educated citizenry. And there's a lot of tie there's a lot of ties between Uva and South America in the form of Simone Bolivar, the liberator of five countries, who he had no children of his own, but a nephew he sent as a student. And that's why you have Casa Bolivar. There is a spanish exchange, or not exchange, but, you know, it's. There's a french and spanish house, I believe, there, but Casa Beliva is the named in honor of. But I, being the liberator, wanted to use the american model and what better place to go than to deviate for his nephew to learn about it.

30:23 Yeah, I actually, I'm in the distinguished majors program in the history department right now, and there is one of my classmates is doing her research on Bolivar's nephew. I think he's also kind of his stepson as well.

30:41 Yeah. Who was a student.

30:44 That was a student. Yeah. Yes, yes. The student who's doing the.

30:48 If you quickly could put me on some kind of list to whatever she writes, I would love to read, if that's possible.

30:57 Yeah, yeah, of course. I'll definitely keep an eye out for kind of how we, you know, where our thesis is available for access. But I think it's interesting you kind of touch on some of the. A little bit of cold war history there, because I. Right now I'm kind of. My research is focused on that. And I think for, you know, Cuba's an interesting and interesting country when you understand, you know, pre revolution, during the revolution. And I think, like, you know, of course, the US presence in Cuba and other countries like Guatemala and elsewhere, I think that there's just so much complexity and nuance to it that. And I think just in the cold war in general, I think that unfortunately, it really does become very boiled down to, um, strictly political ideology, which is understandable. I mean, that's just a reality of so much of what the back and forth was for. For these countries. But I think after taking especially a class on Latin America, on revolutions and understanding, for me, I think what I love so much is understanding in history. You know, what pushes people to want to support one thing over another? It's not just a matter of who the top generals or your kings and your queens and your presidents, but what pushes the average everyday person who's working their job, getting the basic wage that is able to suffice for their family? What pushes them to support something, um, like a revolution? Right. Um, and I think there's a lot to be said about, you know, its aftermath and understanding why people are both in favor and against it. Um, especially as it's kind of. As we, as we see it in the long term. Um, but, yeah, I, you know, I just being able to relate on my interest in that history, um, and really just a people's history, and, and seeing what makes people to really make these decisions, that's always fascinated me. And I'm grateful to have the opportunity to, while I'm writing about the Cold War. It's not specifically about this, but to just be able to write about it, research it, for sure.

33:32 Well, and likewise, I echo your interest, and I. What it seems to, and it's a great deal. It's an area of a great deal of thought and study for myself in terms of just what, at an organic, individual level, because the government is truly a reflection of the people. They mirror, who they put into office. And so it starts with who, in fact, the people are. Now here. Until recently, it was more or less understood and a conclusion that the United States was a remarkable example of. And I'm sure, again, reason your parents benefited and I benefited, coming back to the United States, as opposed to anywhere elsewhere, and a model for a way and form of government that was, bottom line, beneficial to the well being of the citizen at the very lowest levels. And so the concern is, where do people go wrong in terms of and what did, for instance, the founding fathers have on board to be able to design such an amazing, heretofore unknown form of government? And they came together, and I took a Jefferson symposium this last summer, which was a lot of fun. So that's my grandchild's.

35:40 No, it's okay. It's okay.

35:41 You want the Clemson, too, so. And that's my focus. I just. Absolutely, you know, whatever I leave behind, it's, you know, with her in mind, because I want for her what I've enjoyed in my life.

36:01 Sure.

36:02 And for all the citizens, truly and especially. But again, my real focus is Uva, is, I believe Jefferson absolutely designed Uva to be the leader for a country that would go through times like this. And again, this exercise is where it starts.

36:31 Yeah. So on that note, one of the questions that I think opens up even more kind of opportunities to figure out similarities and differences and discuss them more meaningfully, is I would like to ask you to kind of describe, you know, what is your personal belief system or ideology? What are the values that you find most important?

36:53 Again, ladies first.

36:57 Yeah. I would say that as a student of history, specifically, my understanding of politics, my understanding of, you know, even, you know, individuals, leaders like Jefferson, I think that something that really stands out to me. And I always want to maintain as someone, as a voter, you know, as a citizen, is to always understand the nuance of these different sorts of things. And I think, especially for our country, we're running more and more into a sort of push against that. I think for me, I always want to be able to stay open to that. I think that change for human beings in general, we stray away from it. I think we hesitate. We are very much against changing what is our norm. And I think in some ways, that makes me a lot more, I push more on the liberal spectrum in terms of saying, like, hey, you know, if something isn't working for us, why not do something about it? You know, if you. I've always kind of maintained that mentality of, like, if love of country, you know, loving your country is loving it enough to want it to be at its best. And if we have moments or, you know, situations or circumstances that have led us into repeated patterns or we found ourselves constantly, you know, bashing on certain issues, that's, that's, you know, it's normal for one to be able to, you know, kind of go back and forth about certain issues. I don't think that we all have one mentality about things. I don't think it should come at the expense of disrespecting, you know, someone's belief or, you know, who they are, just parts of their identity, how they self identify, things like that. I think that the moment it crosses that boundary, that's, that's now reached a different level. You know, that's not, that's not about politics any longer. That's, you know, the person in front of you, you are willing to cross that boundary of disrespect. You can't really expect them to want to still engage in a civic kind of conversation. And so, yeah, I'd say that I generally lean more liberally on issues as a result of the fact that I am open to the notion that change is okay. And I think that if we want to be at our best and changes must be made as they have historically, that's okay, too. I think it just has to be well thought out. Well, you know, it will take time. It's never something that takes place over a very short period of time because that's just the reality of our world. Anything we'd like to see is not going to, it's not always going to just take place under one presidential term, one individual, whatever. But they can, as you describe, make the first step, and we can, you know, hopefully see, that transpire in the long run for, you know, ourselves, for our children, for their children, you know, things of that nature. So, yeah, I'd be curious to know for you.

40:08 Well, Netta Yeah, I agree. And so my nature is to, in a sense, go deeper and deeper and deeper in terms of. And you mentioned the term identity. In order for dialogue and respectful and civil dialogue, like you referred to, to happen in my awareness, if I can use that term, there. The. The critical thing to start with is an awareness of identity. In psychoanalysis, the most perplexing issue is that of identity. Who am I and who are we? Who in terms of, when I look at you, who are you? You know, in terms of and who am I? And in my belief system, being faithful base, which I related earlier, I was taught as a child that there were no differences, there were no separations, there was no thought as to skin color, for instance. There was a deep knowing of the spiritual sense of identity in terms of characterized by we having come from a place where we were all one, but now, in this world, separate, but not truly separate. And the important thing is to get back to the sense of knowing and being separate. So the way I was raised, my parents in Colombia and Venezuela, there was absolutely no thought given to skin color. And my parents co workers were, whether they were african, south american, or indian or different, there was no thought given. And that's the way my brothers and I were raised, where skin color did not matter. And I'll just relate my two first girlfriends, you know, when you're 1415, you start dating a little bit, where actually one was african, south american, and the other was a mixture, and there was no thought. You know, look at me. I'm like the, you know, whitest of what, northern european. So. But I will say, when I came to this country, the most sad thing to me to immediately observe was this emphasis on skin color, which the Reverend Martin Luther King very aptly stated, and him having, again, I emphasize, reverend, the knowing that we are here. I'm trying to paraphrase his famous quote, judge not a man by the color of his skin, but rather by the content of his character. So that, as an example, I believe, is critical to establishing dialogue in terms of, again, not, as you so well mentioned earlier, coming from a narrative, so to speak, or preconceived notion as to judging who the other person is without knowing who in fact they are. Because, in fact, what they are, in my belief system, is simply another spiritual being who happens to have a different appearance outward. But inside is actually the same. And we are all a part of one family. So that to me, if I would pinpoint one thing that has been saddest about returning to this country has been that very issue and how it's been used to divide us.

44:20 How so? I'd be curious to kind of know what, you know, what are the things that stand out to you as a. As methods that have kind of been used in that sense?

44:31 Well, it's. It's an over concentration of focus on. And the other thing is immediately and congruent with that is the whole aspect of victim identification. If you study any psychology, Freud and Carl Jung right away identified the victim archetype as the lowest archetype, want them not to be emulated because in the victim archetype, there is no self responsibility. And how can someone progress if they have no self responsibility? But we tend to in the current culture, focus on different groups as being, first of all, different and trying to take up some issue of victimization and oppression when that is not the truth. They. It is truly, in my opinion, what we are here for is having been given the choice of how we go forward. So you can talk about a child, for instance. A child is not in and on its own fearful. I'm sorry. I've got someone. My daughter's knocking at the door. Oh, sorry. Oh, right now. Oh, I'm so sorry. My daughter, they live in an apartment complex and they're restriping the. And I just asked them this morning if I needed to move the cardinal and they told me no. But anyways, they'll give me a minute here if we can, because I know. So. Netta Yeah. To reflect that. My heart is truly sad in terms of how this narrative has been used to divide us in our country. And it didn't need to be that way. And it makes no sense, truly. But there are those who benefit by doing that. And that's the sad thing. By dividing us.

47:27 Yeah, I think, you know, I think there is. For one, I want to say that there is so much power to understanding and having an upbringing that, you know, isn't so fixated on trying to highlight differences that would lead you to not want to engage with certain people or make friends based off of anything like the color of their skin and kind of, you know, just you highlighting that. I did want to first acknowledge it. I think that what you describe in terms of some of those sorts of nuances and differences of our histories and who we are kind of goes back to that idea of identity as someone who does identify as nubian, egyptian and american. But a huge emphasis, I think, for me, is on the understanding my nubian identity. Because of how much I didn't really understand. And I think realizing some of these very real realities in history. That have made the experience of being a nubian in Egypt very different. Have made it hard to even. Unfortunately, you know, with that identity, claim certain things that that is something that might be, I think, understood as a sort of victim kind of mentality. But I think to be able to use a voice or use an opinion or perspective that may have been silenced as a result of just based off of that identity, to finally be able to use that or to attempt to use that, I think there's a lot of power to it. I think that it is understandable from the outskirts, if you're looking at it from the outside, regardless of group. But to realize, like, okay, this issue seems to appear time and again. This perspective to kind of create separation appears time and again. But I think, again, kind of going back to looking at it from my experience in education and specifically understanding historical. Some of these, you know, some of that nuance that that is. That is how we understand different narratives in history. And I think there can really be power to that in order to really understand someone's full story, that there's always kind of nuance. And I think that while it's understandable to maybe look at these sort of circumstances in which people might emphasize aspects of their history that kind of play into identity and play into modern day challenges, you know, that might be rooted in historical kind of continuance of a problem that. That also provides us, I think, more awareness to a fuller story. I think that there's, you know, there is that good and that bad. You know, you can, though those are not mutually exclusive. I think understanding someone like a leader, for example, like Thomas Jefferson, and to say, like, okay, they played their role in XYZ, but then, at the same time, we can address the issues of slavery. We can address the very real realities of this individual. I think that, like with anyone, as someone who does study history, I cannot, you know, simply look at it one way or another. I think that it's important to really, you know, highlight those things. And I think that. I think that that allows us to understand an individual better. It allows us to understand historical circumstances better. It allows us to really look beyond maybe a single narrative, because the reality is there are multiple. And there might be a sort of hierarchy in our minds of which ones we align with more versus another. But I think that understanding identity through that lens, for me, especially as someone, as a nubian, egyptian woman, as an american woman, I think understanding that nubian aspect and the very real challenges that my community has faced and continues to face and to tell that story, you know, not to simply say, like, oh, well, you know, some of us are well off, and this and this and this. You know, it's to say, like, this is the harsh reality that some people might not want to address. But addressing it allows us to also say, like, hey, this is a very real issue. How do we then fix this? How do we then move past this? How do we then listen to voices that in the past maybe didn't have the platform or the space to speak, or we're simply just silenced? You know, that's. That's an unfortunate thing as well. So that was kind of my. My response to what you had highlighted. Yeah.

52:32 Yeah. And I very much appreciate that. There was a course I took my fourth year at UVA, which we took as I and my buddies took as what we called a gut at the time. And it was simply a course you take to enhance your GPA for grad school, knowing that it was most likely going to be a very easy and, you know, easy a and it was in the Ed school. And I can tell you, it was called behavioral techniques, and it absolutely transformed my life. It was the first time I had been introduced to the concept of Maslow's hierarchy, if you might be in any way aware. Abraham Maslow. It set forth a framework on which to conceptualize and view my life going forward, which I found just absolutely riveting. And the final phase, I don't know if you're familiar with it, but it's basically depicted as a pyramid, where you take care of your basic needs, and then you move up gradually. And the ultimate is to self actualization. And that I've used as a guide, and I believe all great thinkers in history, starting back with, you know, the Greeks, you know, Aristotle and so forth, were focused on being able to hopefully leave a legacy of something that would speak to those coming after, by which. But immediately coming to mind is the fact that and part of that awareness of identity is the understanding that no one is perfect in this journey. And even, for instance, Aristotle had slaves. So what do you focus on? What benefits you? For instance, would you focus on denigrating and criticizing a voice of truth solely because he had one little area that he was flawed? Or do you choose to look at the bigger body of what he made the world aware of in terms of truth and in terms of making yourself a better person. So that is where I find, you know, we have lost in the current concept, because the people that are most inspiring to me are those who transcend whatever color, skin, whatever identity they have to truly be a voice of truth and self actualization and be an example of ultimately love and not hate. And therefore, I don't give any quarter to those who. Who focus on issues that ultimately divide, but rather unite. And the idea of trying to hold anybody accountable for what was done in the past to the present day when they had nothing to do with what was done in the past to what is today, it most hurts those who feel in this current climate that they have been oppressed because it removes and takes away their ability to take responsibility. And that is front and center. What I had to do, coming to this country with nothing, I mean, literally no money, is I couldn't wallow in self pity or self victimization and expect someone else to, you know, give me. I had to produce out of my own abilities. And I am so grateful that I could do that in a country that allowed me to do that. But what I see more and more is in this country, sadly, education has become miseducation, and particularly in terms of the american dream and the opportunity that still exists here, but which there are many. There are those in power who would want to destroy.

57:54 Yeah. And, you know, I think the story that you really describe, you know, and the story that I've described with my own parents story that you described of your parents, I think that we both found those common grounds, but at the same time, they are our stories. Right. And so I think we have, as humans, we have nuance. Right. We have different experiences. And I think that while, you know, you kind of mentioned, for example, Aristotle, and I think that, yeah, it's something of significance to be able to discuss someone's philosophical teachings and understandings and how that has shaped other, you know, teachers and leaders and philosophers and whatnot. But I think also, I think there is power to critique. I think there is something that highlights who we are as humans, our humanity, our flawed capacities. And I think that to be able to say, you know what, yeah, we might appreciate and understand this person for these reasons, we shouldn't deny that, but we also shouldn't deny those who maybe have in a connection to those flawed realities. If someone might understand the unfortunate realities of slavery and how that's impacted their ancestors. Right. I think to be able to say, like, yes, this is a part of the story, is healing. I think in a lot of ways it says, you know what? We can have an understanding of this narrative in its full capacity. We can understand this person in their full capacity. And I think that that brings us more to accept things like accountability. I think that when it comes to things that might have happened historically, no, maybe we as individuals in this moment might not have at all specifically contributed to that. But I think the more honest we are with ourselves, with maybe what those who came before us might have contributed to or whatnot, I think that that that is honesty. That is coming to terms with the fact that, you know what? While I might appreciate these aspects of myself and my identity and whatnot, these are just unfortunate realities of it as well that are worth being able to be honest.

01:00:22 Quick question. Would you suggest we focus on to cut it to the quick, the good or the bad when it comes to historical figures?

01:00:37 I, you know, I think both. I think that too good. You know, if we're just focused strictly on the good, for example, we begin to idealize. And that's a problem. I think when we specifically focus on the bad, we're not providing nuance.

01:00:52 And I think let's take Jefferson as an example. Would you say in recent times at on our beloved uva, the focus has been on the good or the bad?

01:01:06 I think, you know, while I haven't specifically strictly taken a class on Jefferson, but through my own knowledge, through my own understandings, like, I would say that we're at a point right now where we're willing to sort of take off the assumption that things were only in a good light. I think that that has provided more room for conversation and discourse to say, hey, why don't we address these harsh realities of, you know, you know, these, our university, but also its founder, you know, to be able to say, hey, like, we might accept, you know, his contributions, you know, politically, we might accept his contributions to thought and philosophy and whatnot. But what about this reality that goes undiscussed? How about we be honest about that? And I don't think that that should necessarily say that the contributions on one side should be taken away. But I think that when we're honest about the realities of who this individual was and all the spaces that they kind of found themselves in in life, that that allows us to really, you know, really understand them as a historical figure. We're not strictly just seeing them through one, you know, idealized light. We can appreciate these things, but at the same time be honest and say, this is nuance. This is historical nuance. This person isn't with us today, but we're looking into their. Into their life story. We're looking into their background and we write a story that tells all aspects of it. It tells the holistic story of it. And if it includes that bad, then, you know, that is part of the real story. And I think that we shouldn't disregard that strictly because we feel that it'll take away from the good. I think again, I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

01:03:00 Going to my next question is the question becomes, how does that play out? Is. Is it a good thing, for instance, for students to feel comfortable, regardless of their skin color on the grounds? Or is it not, is it good to have harmony in division? Or is it better to have division and fomenting of division? Is it better to have peace and love or to have anger and hate? And what concerns me as alumnus is recent student polls that show, and you being right there, both of you can, I'm sure, identify that unlike in the past, there has been a lessening of camaraderie and unity among the student body like never before, there has been a silencing of voices. And my question really comes back to whether it's important to have reason as a basis of discussion, or is it better to have anger and hatred and this disagreement and why are there forces that would seek to. I would think it would be better to have a harmonious student population who can certainly discuss those items that, you know, we've been discussing, you know, in terms of whether Aristotle or, but in overall be able to transcend the issue and still come to a place where they can agree that, you know, for instance, like Jefferson and Adams start out bitter, but came to a place of great love for each other and appreciation for each other.

01:05:38 I'm going to jump in here just because we are running a little out of time for kind of our usual one small step conversation, although I'm sure we could go on for a lot longer.

01:05:48 Oh, yeah.

01:05:49 I also want to drag us back to the realm of the personal a little bit more. I know, especially this happens, funnily enough, a lot when we have UVA alums and students together where I think we get sucked back into this world of thought and kind of like theory and history. And it's very fun to listen to. But I also want to bring it back to you as individuals and kind of to your experiences that you've shared with each other, to ask a couple of closing questions so that way you can kind of express any last thoughts about yourselves and each other. So the first question I want to ask is, is there anything that you may not agree with about your partner's beliefs, but that you can respect, having spoken to them today?

01:06:34 Well, this time I'll go first.

01:06:37 Perfect.

01:06:40 If I can be allowed. Honestly, I haven't heard anything that I disagree with what Nana has related. I think her wording has been such that it allows for a good interchange. And her energy, if I could call it as one of a peaceful energy in which to allow for, like I just did, questioning and so forth. So, to be honest, I. She's nothing honest I can point to that I disagree with, in terms of, even when, you know, she. She related the importance of discussing those areas that are not good, that are bad, and absolutely that has the place. And I can quote no better source or than the founder of the university where he said very succinctly, for here we shall not be afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor shall we tolerate error, so long as reason is left free to combat it. And so Naida's energy and discussion has been, to me, the allowance of reason. And that provides a very good framework in which to even go further. It would be to more specific aspects of being able to learn from each other, just like Jefferson and Adams did back in the day. When I learned in that Jefferson symposium, when Jefferson became president, they were in a situation that was unbelievably very similar to what we are facing today in our country after the terms of Washington and Adams and Jefferson having to step in in a courageous way to get the ship back righted to, because we were rapidly falling into the same pattern of behavior as we had just fought with George King, George III, in terms of a totalitarian, especially in the form of the ailing and Sedition act, where Adams had promoted, and they had put in place the ability and power to go in and actually arrest newspaper editors if Adams was in the least bit criticized. That Jefferson pointed out was unacceptable. So on that note, again, Jefferson comes forward straight to today in that very, very succinct quote. But I would say, again, the importance is a reason based framework, not an emotional anger based framework, which is all the. All too evident in today's society. And I will go out on limb and say I do not appreciate those who foment anger and division amongst our citizenry.

01:10:41 Yeah. You know, I thank you, first of all, for your. For your kind words. I really did enjoy this conversation. And I think that, you know, had we, you know, continued, we would have, you know, gone into so many other, other topics. And I think that's really a testament to your capacity for really introspective thought. And I really did appreciate that in just the number of topics we discussed of our upbringing and background and countries that both our families come from and our experiences here in the context of the US and political realities as individuals who both, at some point, you know, very soon, I will also become an alumna. But, you know, their ties to UVA as well. You know, I would say that had we, you know, had we had the opportunity to continue talking, I would have loved to broach that topic of emotion and reason. I think that so often, you know, from my understandings, from my conversations and, and from my experiences, I realized so much of emotion comes from somewhere, right? And what brings people to that point of feeling like there is no other way to really relay how they're feeling or to feel as though in the space of reason there is not room for their thought or whatnot. I think sometimes that emotion can really, it really can be grounded in some degree of reason, not in all contexts, but I think some degree of it, even if it at this point, has not, you know, it doesn't look like it anymore, but to really go back and say, like, where is this really rooted? You know, when you take off that layer of anger and frustration, which I hope that as a country, you know, we continue to have those kinds of conversations because, quite frankly, it's coming from somewhere, right? It's rooted in something. And I think the goal is to really find out what that thing is so that the conversation can actually progress and we can really make a change on that issue or another. So, yeah, as I said, I would have loved to continue our discussion, and I hope that future opportunity can allow us either the opportunity to do so or to allow us to really extend our invite others to really continue in a conversation that is so direly needed. And I, again, have faith that that will transpire.

01:13:25 So can I quickly just say an echo? The very. What we just both focused on is absolutely the core of which I feel could lead to greater understanding in terms of understanding that very issue of reason, emotion and anger and how it plays forth in coming to, hopefully, a place where Uva, I believe, should lead. And it's an example to the rest of our country, just like Jefferson designed Uva. And we have, sadly, in my opinion, not taken the reins of what he, or fulfilled what he so sagely foresaw would be going on. And that, sadly, I believe, comes back to, you know, leadership. But in any case, I think, again, this is a beautiful conversation that we've had because it certainly provides an avenue to explore even deeper. And I would need to, you know, welcome any further if that ever becomes possible.