Nancy Harness and Eric Keller
DescriptionOne Small Step conversation partners and siblings Nancy Harness (66) and Eric Keller (57) talk about growing up in the same household at different time periods and how that shaped their differing world views. They also discussed the Covid vaccine, immigration issues, role of government, diversity and leveling playing field, Black Lives matter and their family dynamics.
Subject Log / Time Code
- Nancy Harness
- Eric Keller
Recording LocationPrivate Residence
Venue / Recording Kit
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00:05 You start off with the general of the with the Who You Are.
00:12 This right here. Is that okay?
00:17 Oh, okay, okay.
00:20 Will, my name is Nancy harness. I am 66 years of age. Today's date is Wednesday, September 29th, 2021 and our location is Lawrence, Kansas. The name of my interview partner is Eric Keller and he is my brother.
00:40 So, my name is Eric Keller. I am 57 years of age. Today is Wednesday, September 29th, 2021 and we are in Lawrence, Kansas. Then the name of my partner is Nancy harness and she is my oldest sister older sister.
01:03 The first question, what made you want to do this interview today? So when when we were, when I was originally asked about this, I felt like, you know, Nancy and I are very close. We've known each other a long time and we have a lots of things in common, but we also have lots of things that we have different opinions on. And, and I think we saw the opportunity to dive into this kind of project was, was appealing to me because, you know, I'm learning more about what helped mold of you. She has I think would is is always beneficial. So I think it's a neat opportunity.
01:49 What made you want to do this interview today? And I think that I've been into, well, first of all, it's fun watching learning about this project with Lynn. We've had opportunities to visit about it. I think what's fascinating to me is and we've talked before about being members of the same family, but the fact that I was there in, I'm the oldest and by the time you were old enough to kind of be cognizant of all that I had left. So the idea that the family I grew up in and the family you grew up in are not the same and what kind of dynamic that creates
02:35 I need to stop you for just a moment. We're still recording. I'm going to move your Michael little bit down so that I don't.
02:43 That way, okay.
02:49 You guys have beautiful and nice volume voices.
03:02 So, I think we'd answer the question of why we've done it and why we're doing it today, right? So would we continue with question number two? Then and so this is your bio, Eric, my name spoken in first-person. My name is Eric. I am 57 years old divorced, father of three. I live in southwest Kansas. I have been a partner in an insurance agency for the last 25 years. And before that. I spent nine years in sales with Nestle's throughout my life. I have had a strong passion for politics though. That is waived waned. A lot due to the difficulty of finding common ground in discussions. I approach a lot of things with perspective of a business owner, which can sometimes be too narrow. I have lots of interests and Passions.
03:56 So what could you add to your bio, Eric?
04:02 No, I think one thing is I get older. How I'm more open to.
04:11 DES, in a low point of view that are different than my own, how much, you know, maybe I'm hungry or for some of that. So there's a better understanding of why I don't always see things the way other people see things. So,
04:28 That might be why, you know, what area whether it's political or social e York. I mean, we're coming off of a crazy time in this country with covid and Anna and all the different things. And so it's easy to have one set of use about it. And what you think should happen. How do you open that up to other points of view and other people's and putting concerned in them? So, how do you, how do I expand my knowledge about so much stuff to be more open-minded, because as we get older, I think that's one of the things. It's kind of hard to hold on to, you know, I mean what?
05:14 What were you thinking, and whether or not it's right or wrong and maybe it isn't right or wrong, but I knew education opportunities and do learning things. You're, you're always opening new chapters in your life. Whether it's moving the Lawrence, whether it's Horticulture Garden therapy, whether it's, and I think that's been one thing about you that, that, that I really look up to. And so, you know, we talked about it the other day, where you open it, you turn the page to a new chapter in your either. That's where you're at in life. So, what are you going to do with it? And I think now we're both in and similar places and a new place in our life. And I've watched, you do a lot of that and I'm getting to deal with some of that myself, you know, so little brothers are doing online.
06:14 Dating. At the same time you were in college or something. I know it's it's it's an interesting dynamic.
06:26 Things to say Eric I cuz you know, sometimes this I'm going to do this a while and then I'm going to do this while and then I'm going to do this. Well, I appreciate that. You see that as a strength because there are folks that and you know, when you look at what you've done at the insurance agent, that you have been there quite some time.
06:45 And so, you know for you to see it as a strength that I didn't do it that way. It's very nice. Thank you. You know, I think that's
07:00 One thing that I've always liked about you is that you are always interested in learning new things.
07:08 And challenging yourself. All right, I was born raised and spent most of my adult hood and a small town in Western Kansas. I am the oldest with four brothers. One who is deceased. I am a liberal individual with a strong sense of social justice. I credit that growing up in the seventies and living in a culturally diverse Community. I often felt that I was a bridge between the people who were long-term residents of the community and the new arrivals. I'm also grateful for the opportunity to get acquainted with people from all over the world.
07:51 So when I look at this one of the things that I would see in and looking at this going, what do you think? It is a one particular episode in Garden City or growing up that gave you this sense of social justice. Was there something that you saw a wrong that needed corrected? Or is there any one particular thing that created gave you that perspective? She know it's funny that you asked that cuz there is one but it's it's not like, you know kids begging on the street corner or anything chuck had and he had a little sports car.
08:31 He had a little white mgv sports car.
08:35 And when I drove that once or twice, I truly was uncomfortable driving it because it reflected something about who I was, as I was in that car and I did not feel comfortable with that perspective.
08:52 And you know, I I mean, that's the I just that wasn't who I am. That wasn't I didn't feel comfortable, you know, kind of identifying with that but if you know, so that's a whole lot. But that is definitely something that I remember. What do you think it implied? Elwell and being a leader and privilege and it just none of that. I was comfortable and I probably shouldn't have been driving checks for the car anyway, but I just so I do think a lot of it has to come down to
09:27 Growing up in the sixties and seventies and just all the sudden the focus not being on.
09:36 Necessarily appearance in convention and you know that we were really doing things differently and I think it's fascinating when you see pictures of women, young women and young man and the early sixties, and you see them, you know, it was similar pictures, ten years later, and how different people look. And I just think so, part of that I think was being, you know, and we were the generation that watched the Vietnam War on television while we were eating dinner. So, there was a real sense of being connected to something that wasn't. I mean, you know, there's lots of people might argue either way, but it wasn't, just, it didn't accomplish anything. Besides lots of people getting killed in battle, both, you know, Vietnamese said, an American Soldier is, but I do think it's part of. It is the Woodstock, all, you know, just kind of a relaxation.
10:37 And that's part of why I am who I am. I think she has much to Dad's Chagrin right in those days. The first second, third grade that I it's not registering with me the, the, the same impact when it's the Vietnam War, right? So, I get that and it but I definitely grew up with the same. You know, Garden City was a small-town, our dad had a successful business, and people knew it and I think people knew we were privileged in middle class or upper middle class. And I was often made to feel like, you know, they didn't have any problems cuz you had money or came from money. And and, you know, I remember thinking it was an interesting thing to wrap your head around cuz it's not something I felt, but it was something that I had communicated to me.
11:37 Many times growing up. So who is the who is saying that you class mates or neighborhood kids? So that you that you, you just had it made cuz I don't know that I ever had anyone say that but it would have been 10 years before and you know, dad was in a different position than, you know, I remember us going to the, you know, going to the American Legion and he did the books on Sundays after church, to make some money. And we were there, you know, getting out of moms hair. And, you know, drinking pop from the soda machine. I'm in high school were taking trips to Europe. Asia Ireland, with Marvin injury nor, and a different experience. But, you know, when your kids, when people would hear about that, certain people, that wanted to find things to pick on you, that would say,
12:37 Spoiled rich kid and all the stuff you'll be like.
12:41 Probably some truth to that, but I just, I didn't feel like I conveyed that right. It wasn't. But we didn't grow up with parents that gave us any.
12:52 Religion are they didn't encourage that kind of behavior. I mean, we were pretty family. I thought, I mean common things, you know, Dad it was important dad. I mean, it was important that we didn't get into a whole lot of trouble and that we follow, because he there were expectations for us as Keller's and we in, he expected us to behave in a manner that would not bring disrespect to him or disrespect to the family. And when those off, you know, those things happen, so I mean, nobody was very was very happy about it.
13:40 He pushed every, every button, every button, you know.
13:48 You're the one thing. I wonder Eric. So I so I left so I'm nine years older than you are. So when I left to go to college, you would have been 9.
14:00 What was so everything that happened in that household, then I'm not privy to it because I'm not, there was, I mean, does that explain a little bit about? Cuz I think there have been times we've had conversations about feeling, like you got the emotional support that you needed as the youngest kid. Was that? I mean, where did some of that happened when when, cuz that was, when you were younger, would you think you can look at our family pictures and see dad, taking you three swimming to the pool in the swimming pool swimming with you and Chuck. And Tim?
14:51 You know, where there's no pictures of Dad's women with Doug and Eric. I mean that just never once did he take us to the pool. So I think the difference in you know, when you look at how involved he was with you, three the first five or six years there wasn't any of that that I remember.
15:10 That involvement with Doug Ryan, those first five or six years.
15:16 I mean and I think it would he expected the older siblings to interact with this. You know, you'd say Dad was, would you put you would you play catch? And it would be, you know, see if your brother was cuz I think he was you no further into his business activities. At that point had five kids and now he did a lot, you know, we both did and we did a lot of that when you were okay. Yeah. I mean, we definitely boat it a lot but it wasn't the one I don't remember ever having him take me places, but I don't remember that. Damn. So what was the household life without the big sister? Was there any marked difference are not particularly?
16:05 Well, I think so much of it, you know.
16:10 So much of my childhood you guys were gone because I would have been in third grade. So when you're over for third grade, it's hard to remember lots of things. So from 4 through, you know, Senior High School, the next eight, or nine years, you were gone. And then the year, so checks gone and then with Tim, so, you know that I felt. And a lot of ways, a big part of my childhood was just the four of us. This damn would have been gone by 7th grade. So, by the time Doug and I get an eighth grade, it's just the four of us left in the house. So that's probably as much as anything. The memories of AIDS 9th 10th 11th 12th, right. Miss you, and and visiting you. And listen to visit having the Peril parental frustration with you. And Chuck was constant in terms of
17:10 Memories about what truck was doing her. You were doing, is that they didn't, and I and I was in Europe and one coming out as a little kid, you're like, you know, being told to grow up different than Chuck and Nancy to a degree. I remember some of the things like, you know, they were just got Richard in the fact. My mom was beside herself that you wouldn't shave your armpits and your legs. And why I'm having conversations with her about your rebelliousness, when I'm in fourth grade. I'm like, what am I supposed to even do the process that right away. I don't know, a girl supposed to shave her armpits and shave her legs. And my mom was like,
17:56 You know, I'm in, you'd have those conversations and they were shocked was off-the-charts. Driving them nuts about this way too much with I think her kids about what was going on between her and other kids. Do you think that was just because her, wasn't anyone else to tell me? And I don't think her marriage was healthy enough that she had the emotional connection with her husband cuz that's where that communicate should have been sure, but then they also that I think as happens there was a lot of blame, you know, I think Mom blamed dad for some of the problems that check was having, you know, and and cuz he shared that with me, but fortunately I didn't get a whole lot of your not cuz I wasn't there, you know.
18:53 I think things calm down a lot. When when he can do as you got older, you got out of college and then really, I don't remember too many crazy stories in college besides that whether you were coming home from Europe conversation, but I know. And then when Chuck settle down with Cindy Moore that kind of settle down and then it became, you know, that Tim was doing his thing and at Hays and Doug and I and Mom and Dad were another of the family for so many years. And he's good about getting together with holidays and all that stuff. So it wasn't like, there was negative attention all the time. I mean, but I do know that, you know, I remember it as a younger kid with the 70s generation, the older sibling, they the concern everybody had about the drugs and the can in, I remember being in Ellsworth.
19:53 With the guilfoyle's, finding out their oldest two, boys are heavy into drugs and somehow I'm in this conversation, part of this conversation and Dad Sharon with them. That'll be all right and these kids up, you know, they don't give up on him and I'm thinking oh my God, I can't tell you how many times I was like, what the hell is wrong with all these people? And that might have been something that made, you know, made us more conservative of or more. Traditional is, look at being a part of these stories. Like these kids are a mess and I'm in fifth grade. So I'm not a mess but it's the two. Oldest Guilfoyle that oldest Guilfoyle who ended up becoming a district attorney in Abilene. But I mean, he was going through this rebellious. Jack was rebellious. The parents would talk the letourneau's. I remember hearing some of these conversations cuz I wasn't old enough to get away from the, you know, that the environment and it
20:53 Like, I don't know what's wrong with these people, you know, I remember being having some of those thoughts and now it's I always enjoyed tagging along with the older kids and I'm always thought it was fun. But but you also got the parental dissatisfaction with the whole thing as we grew up, interesting, that they that they could could talk to each other about it, you know, cuz they didn't say we didn't see them very often maybe once or twice a year, maybe when their friendship back, aways, but it sounds like just everybody was trying to figure it out and I'm sure that's exactly what people, you know, people are experiencing.
21:39 Nowadays, too, but that's interesting cuz I wish you kind of wonder what happens when you're gone, you know, and I also think it's got to be weird on your head to have people leave.
21:50 You know, no one left when I was a kid. I was the first one out the door, but I think if you think about all the people you have to say goodbye to, I mean that's you know, it's probably a real advantage that you had Doug whose like 12 months older than you. So you had him as a bunny in it, you know, in a friend that some piano. If you by the time you say goodbye to all your siblings are the only kid at home. It would have been different if it's interesting. I've never thought about how that couldn't make.
22:31 Me and maybe Doug more conservative in our leanings. Because we saw some of the
22:40 Lack of approval from parents for the older siblings. Rebellious knows that made you, you know, I don't know, it's been kind of knew what you shouldn't do. After that. You know, you look at the eighties and it was, it was very different than the 70s in terms it. In a Ronald Reagan's, president in more of a conservative tone as a country, in for attorneys are back on popular, on campus and kids are dressing up for school versus the hair shorter. The trans Arch more traditional. I think they win. This is very different in the 80s in the 70s. That's interesting. Cuz I knew how different it was in the 70s and how it impacted people, but I never thought that then you flip it back to the 80s and Reagan and what that was going to be. Like we're weird people in our fraternity at KU in the 80s. That would have never been in the fraternity 10 years before cuz it was on a popular thing. But by the time maybe five.
23:40 It was very popular thing to get back in and I think that's how
23:46 Taste and fashion, and, and things swing, you know, all the sudden what's in Vogue is out of Vogue and whether it's hats, or fashion, or different things kind of Swing. So, I think that pendulum swing back into a more conservative. One thing. I think you'd have to mention growing out though is I don't think most families sat around and discuss politics like we did see conversations much more than most people do today or did that. Well, at every time people came to town, you know, Uncle Marv, they were always meaty conversation, business, and politics, and making money, and economy, and National, you know, I mean,
24:41 Lots of, and I think we were taught to have strong opinions. And, you know, if you didn't voice it loudly, you weren't going to get hurt. And, and, you know, we have a very strong-willed group of people in our family with strong personalities. And and that, you know, but I think we always were taught to enough. You can have your battles when you get back together the next day, and you go on down the road and hit delete by the properties. And say, what the, what the what the cross look like. So, none of none of the arguments ever created bad feelings. It stayed bad feelings, were not really deep bad feelings. It was just, you know, where we're at, as a, you know, maybe you just wipe the Slate clean and went back hat.
25:41 Sitting in.
25:43 Was one of the things I did as a City Commissioner. And it was like, you know, it was either a debate, or we were having a big discussion with the other Commissioners and, you know, it was so familiar. That's exactly how we grew up in politics with passion and conviction. I mean, I think everybody in our family has that ability, tremendously some more sadly or more gifted and turn on the fan. In El, that how they believed in and
26:37 I know, and I think,
26:41 You know, there's a lot of good that has come out of that with our kid, you know, we have a family that spread from Coast to Coast with people that are all over the country because they have big, you know, they had a lot of exposure and and feel comfortable diving and doing things for a lot of families. That's not the expat way.
27:04 How they have how they live life. So I'm going to ask you a question cuz there's several. I mean like you said it's the beginning we agree on Lots but we also have things. We don't agree on and part of it I think is and I'm wondering if some of this has to do with coming of age in the 80s, but
27:24 One. I think that's different is how we view the role of government and what government contributes or doesn't contribute. And I'm a proponent for government because I think there are things that need to be handled at that level that it has a role to play maybe not perfectly by any stretch but well-intended. But you were you know, what what I know that that's not necessarily how you feel about government.
27:58 You know your late husband on one time. I remember him and he didn't have lots of political discussions and was fairly quiet, his viewpoints. But I remember one time you said to me, what we we don't need bigger government or smaller government. We need better government.
28:21 And, and that really skip a lot of thought to that, and I think
28:27 My, my take-away on that is
28:30 I think it comes down a lot to how you view the nature of man.
28:36 Whether you think man is good.
28:40 Or whether you think man is falling has a sinful nature and and I think a lot of what, how people view government really bills off of how you view mad. Cuz if you view, man is good, then man has the capability of governing and and acting with couldn't. But if you view man is following and having a sinful nature, then you would view that, man, really, you know.
29:11 Doesn't have that ability easily or well or not. And I think if you look at the founders and it really isn't just about Christianity and believing in Christianity. But if you look at the founders, I think they believed in the Fallen nature of man.
29:34 And so, the best government had to be a very limited government, a very small government and a very local government because man is fallible and he's corruptible and power is corruptible. And I think they didn't trust government much and and they put, but that's an extension of trusting man's ability. So I think
29:58 My view on, it would be if you take that position, then, okay, if you feel like, man is incapable really at handling power. Well, then you have to have very limited powers in government because you're giving people power over other people. So, you know, the Founders Brewery, Ali built this whole country on minimizing that government power, and giving as much power as you can two people.
30:26 True capitalism and true democracy and through these types of things, which have all their own shortcomings. They have all their own abuse and potential, and greed, and all these things. But in the end, they believe that man individual person had was a better, was better, capable of making decisions for his family and his life and what he want, nothing. That's the why they can't, you know, the whole concept of this country. The pursuit of Liberty means I can look different to every individual and you're truly one of the only experiments where, you know, you're you're free to pursue what you want to pursue and if that means you want to be worth a hundred million dollars, can you can go for it? And if that means you want to live in a very simply and Off the Grid and in an RV somewhere and travel full-time and you can do it and all I mean we have this amazing ability, so I think
31:24 You know, you and I were, we're coming from differently cuz there is a role for the federal government. There is a role to help people.
31:32 The government. And we have a need to help those who are less fortunate, and who need help up and all those types of things, but, I find it interesting because how we decide to help the public in general, is very different than how we helped in the individual case when you and I talked about somebody, we know a family that has a challenging kid. We talked about that might be struggling with drugs or whatever. They're struggling with, we talked about how you love tough love, right? But what does that look like for society as a society as a whole tough? Love is a difficult thing because it's not fair and it's not this and it's not that but you're thinking if it works in the micro
32:28 With that one person's individual that they need to be accountable. Get a job take responsibility, all the different things that we can have when it's one particular situation almost 400,000 people looking for work. It doesn't apply. And that's where I struggle because it's the same concept in a lot of ways or it's the same idea somehow if we look at our own lives and we think about the tough things we've dealt with.
32:58 Most of the time.
33:00 That's what really defines people and make some better know you've said that to me before, I think. Well, first of all, I think that's a very patronising way of dealing with people assuming that if they struggled their lives will be better in the long run. Because what you're saying is somehow
33:24 That, I mean, I think that that's assuming some things that people, you know, that being well-off be I mean that
33:38 I let me ask you a question. Do you think that this Society Works equally as well?
33:47 With people who are of color people who have struggled with their position in society. Does this idea of tough? Love work across the board?
33:59 Well, I think
34:02 You know, living in Garden, City, working with a lot of Hispanic customers. Nobody is harder on illegal immigration. Then somebody who came from Mexico and became a citizen, the the legal process way. I mean, I've had those conversations, I have those customers and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, that is heartless. That seems like a tough approach and it's like, well, I did this and this and this to become a citizen. And I that's, that's their opinion very strong. So I
34:41 No, and I'm not trying to sound patronizing because I do think the lots of people need help. Lots of people need help. And it isn't every tough situation, doesn't mean we shouldn't help people in tough situations. But when you as a society try to eliminate any and all difficulties for people, I think you are taking away what makes people grit tough and get through it. And those are the things. I mean, when I look at my life, anything that was a challenging usually is a time that I learn more about myself. I grew, I learn new things and and I'm not saying that any of its enjoyable and I'm not saying we let people suffer, but we also, I think got to realize there's incredible value to don't you think the people I got you think people or I mean just life will do that to you. Life is going to throw you some hard balls. I don't know that we have to kind of preloaded. I'm not
35:41 Were pre-loading at. But if you need to take a perfect example, right now, when you extend unemployment benefits, and then you feel like you're really not taking away people's and send it to work. But if you go out and talk to lots of business owners who are struggling to have enough employees. They're feeling is it's keeping people from joining the job, the work for us because we so when you look at that, you're going is bazetta smart decision. And what is the purpose of that, or what is the motivation for that? And are we trying to over help people? I mean, those are the kind of things that I think, you know, so you have to take the macro down to the micro in the micro up to the macro. But but obviously as a middle-aged white guy I can't sit here and tell you that I can relate to the experience of being a color and being an immigrant and any of those things. So so I don't want to minimize any of those experiences, but at the same time,
36:41 What am I? That's why I asked a lot of questions and I have lots of customers who have an unbelievable backgrounds and experiences and you know,
36:55 I have a Hispanic business owners who don't pay their help, minimum wage. And you're sitting there saying to him, you have to pay a minimum wage and they're going. This is they make $4 a day in Mexico and I'm paying a 4 bucks an hour, and I'm like, a, this isn't Mexico, I'm here. So but it's going. But you know what he meant. He would tell you, he's doing this guy a favor, paid him, $4 an hour, cuz he's looking at it very different lens than you. And I are looking at it cuz we're looking at it going on my God, you're taking advantage of this person right going, you know, this person in their views and their eyes, they're not in. So, I heard a lot of those kind of conversations over the years to because I have to have the work comp on it and the guys got six people with 30,000 and payroll or whatever you got. These numbers are not making sense and you have those conversations and they're tougher.
37:52 Then I wouldn't hire somebody and pay him $4 an hour and never have and never would. And, and we would pay more than minimum wage. So they're different Dynamics. But but this is a, you know, this is the guy who was born in Mexico, who became a citizen who doesn't have it. He seems very different than us then, and I'm just saying that's a perspective. We have to also try to understand where they're coming from.
38:25 Well, I thought I am.
38:28 The only thing I would say is that the way that, you know, we talked about people becoming citizens and most of those doors are shut. I mean, there really isn't a way to come from Mexico and all my customers have done if they marry an American. But you know, that's not even, that's not a guarantee. That's how they all fast-tracked in you're looking at him going, you know, and I'm not saying they didn't love their wives and all those kind of things, but they're that was a door that they were right. We need ways for that to happen. Anyways, and then we can say get in line, but if there's no line,
39:14 Then it's difficult for people to get in the line. You know, that was that was well. Well, spoken Eric. You did. That was very cool. Thank you. You're welcome. So should we try another one number 3. What do you think?
39:31 Yes, so tell me about one or two people in your life who had the biggest influence on you. And what did they teach you?
39:43 I mean, you know on what did he teach me?
39:47 Be another persist to, you know, enjoy what life had to offer to you know to work hard to be you know, and and just to kind of enjoy what was happening when he was a funny fellow. I married him not knowing how funny was me and I knew it was good looking but I didn't know he was funny and he was funny too. So, you know, I just think it one thing that done always said when we fuss with and he didn't fuss with me. He just that wasn't his way of doing things, but he would say, you know Nancy I'm on your side so you can't fight with somebody when you're you're on the same side with them. So yeah. I just need to know when I think about how he maneuvered through life.
40:34 And enjoy in Owen and did such tremendous things.
40:41 Making jewelry to work in an In-N-Out raisin. Us being bored on the end of the public radio and staying positive and being in the family, that is as powerful of personalities as we had and being somebody who who could interact with that and in a way that was good, you know, and now, you know, he died. I can see why you feel that way about him. He had a tremendous.
41:20 You know, will and patience and and positive Viewpoint kind of, you know, working with a 15 years on the Windsor. There were times a guy just drove me absolutely nuts. Because of his optimistic view of everybody, everything. I don't want to do it this way. You know how they'll come around. They'll get it done that, and you're going to wear one of yours. You don't want to comes to. Mine is my dad and you, and I've had lots of conversations about that, but it was definitely had a relationship that had lots of challenges at times of my life. But also one, you know, I think my dad taught me, lots of important things in life, how to work hard and how to be proud of
42:20 About who you are and and, and where you're from, and this country in your faith in and, you know, I look at how the struggles people have and we grew up with a dad who was optimistic and positive and and you don't believe you could do anything you wanted to do and what kind of asset that is pick, what kind of tremendous blessing that it's cuz lots of people didn't have that in their family growing up. So even though he was far from perfect and had lots of sure. There were a lot of things about him, that, that were incredibly positive and impactful of my life, for sure. And I get interact with people who are the compliments week that I get about our parents and our work and day today, you know, 3 or 4 times a year. Somebody says to me, your mom was this and your mom was in
43:20 Credible person and your dad was this. Your dad was an incredible person in there. Really hard. Felt genuine and I can sit there and say, you know, your he was encouraging, he was optimistic. He was involved in you know, when they come in at the Knights of Columbus and they talk about you will give us a 50-year mug recognizing because our agency is supported it for fifty years and he goes well, you know whose idea this was to start this tell you and I might even know it was your dad. They were looking for a fund-raising activity for the nights and he starts Sharon and Uncle Jake says. So, you know, Jake take it says
44:05 He had the recipes. He furnished, the recipes for Colorado and you're so, you know, so we we grew up with it, you know, that kind of role model and the guy was involved in everything that he was, and he was involved with it. He was active CCD, religion, classes. When we lived on Chesterfield. He was going that. Yeah, it going to be in, I'd go in the basement and talk religion to people. You know, when I think I appreciate about Dad, was he just in all those does the Krusty Germans when Dad would walk in the door? You know, they'd have a good time. He'd go in to talk with with Uncle Jake and and all of those folks and and he just livened up the place, you know, well, I think that's one of the ones. I would say that had the most influence on me to, you know, when that my dad loved me.
45:04 To no end. And when you have somebody who loves you like that, you know, lots of things are possible. And he'd say, you know, when he was so sick and I was taking care of him of a fashion. He introduced me one time when I walked into his room and this is just living as his best friend.
45:26 And, you know, cuz I was in charge, you know, for 6 months, making sure he went out and did fun stuff because it was very cool.
45:34 That is very cool.
45:36 So we have one more card.
45:43 Could you delete done? This one? Do you think we've done this briefly? Describe your personal political value? So you're saying that we need.
45:54 Noting that people might not.
46:00 I mean, that people are flawed this. What you, you know that we do need some limitations in government and politics to take an account that we are flat. Yes. Know that what you said and I think, I think a lot of how people few government comes from how they view the nature of man, you know, somehow along the line. We are losing the ability. I mean, I think
46:30 You know.
46:33 When the important thing when people disagree is that, you
46:38 And when you and I were talking about our disagreements, but yet we can be so close. Well, we were talking about. I don't question your intention and I don't question your motivation. I just know we're seeing things differently. I know you have a heart to help people.
46:58 I know you have a you know, a desire to that your motivation and intentions come from a very good place.
47:09 Thank you.
47:14 Got unless hot, but I want you to
47:18 No, no, no, no.
47:30 But continue on your thought, so I think, you know, we have very different ideas on how you saw a problem and what role the government plays in how you solve those problems and what responsibilities people have in solving those problems. I mean, we have a very different view on almost. Let me know most issues really to a degree, but I think when I but we don't question, you know, I think you know that I care about people and don't want to just hurt. See, people hurt. I don't think, you know, I don't question your motivation. I don't question your intention. I know it's coming from a good place and you have a heart to want to help people and you have a hard to want to solve problems. I also think
48:23 As I, you know, that I'm learning that if you do you take this whole environmental plastic thing and that is never been something that I would get excited about it. But Halle, for example, is adamant about what we're doing to this planet. I've watched a couple documentaries in the last 6-8 months that you make you go. Holy crap.
48:50 You know, seriously, you can't just keep piling that kind of crap in into the world. So, you know, part of it is being open to so you going, okay, what are, what are reasonable Solutions or what are, you know, so to really get people that have different views. Do you have to trust each other? And you have to have a common, like our motivation, isn't that far apart? In terms of, you know, they want to see people be successful. Want to see, you know, people have opportunity. I mean in and I think when what's happening nationally in a lot of ways is the intentions aren't aren't healthy, and the intentions aren't getting on either side. It is. It's about power, and it's about money, and it's about votes, and it's about power, and and, and how they packaged it, whether it's the last
49:50 The right, how they packaged it to two, who they're selling it to.
49:56 Because if you really break it down, I don't think the intentions of a lot of some of the stuff are well-designed from either side. I don't think it's about helping people. I don't think it's about making the world better for people. I think it, I don't think I'm not saying every program ever done, but lots of them do and I think that surfaces in their, their lack of Effectiveness because the intention is about, is it is deeper than that and when you have and when those things surface without good debate and discussion, then people get loose trust, and when people lose trust, then they
50:46 Have problems with vaccines as an example because they've lost trust in the system. Some reason and you can, it's not a way. It's not a left, right thing, or write me some reason, medical treatment became political side, politicized, to the point where something that should have been outside of that world is now immersed in that world. And we have people who don't trust the process and that's as much. I look at that as much as left.
51:15 As right as you can find. Blame on both sides of the problem is, we want to find the blame. We want to take the argument, the best supports our side, write the case. We want.
51:29 People to get for their own health. Get a vaccine. So if you think he, if you're looking at what is the end result of it? It's that people are vaccinated. So how interesting that you bring this up because one of the things up until about what a month ago, 2 months ago, we had many many discussions about getting the vaccine and you were reluctant to do that. Could you share? What changed in your mind? My reluctance came from one? I wanted to see, you know, I think the fact they got it was helpful. I think that, you know, I wasn't in a hurry to get the vaccine.
52:12 I was on an anti vaxxer. Although I think I've listened to enough of the anti-vaccine arguments to to make you go. There's some real valid points to some of the treatment when they talk about how this should be treated and it's medical people to, it's not just crazy people in and we're not like the hydria can't pronounce that word but the high do you know the over-the-counter? Asthma medicine that's been so effective. These the inhaling it's like, I and I dress has got a fancy medical and they're using that as part of the treatment or not you, but it's not approved in the bunch of wacko people that, you know, when the guy who is was in charge of the health department in Texas for 10 years and Advising 2.0 by the governor.
53:12 YouTube videos out there that are 20 minutes long about how he treats covid with some basic medicine and those any can't get anybody to listen to his argument. He's getting ten million people, to watch his YouTube video. Let me tell you that are going. Why isn't this surfaces? Why is the national? Why isn't this guy registering? Will his viewpoints fall outside of the acceptable mainstream Viewpoint and you're going down but but it shouldn't. I mean this isn't some radical dude, this is somebody with a long track record. That's a doctor and he those conversation should be had and when they're not had people because you know, what's happening, 10 million. People are watching this YouTube video and he's not even radical. He's not saying he's for the vaccine. I'm, he's not a radical dude, but he's going. We're treating this.
54:12 And the stay-at-home, tell your sick enough to let you know. You don't wait till stage 4, cancer to treated you treat cancer when you first get it, and this year and a half ago when people were having symptoms and they were telling you to stay home, his point was now, you don't do that with anything. So the fact that there was just a question of resources to 10 million people that watches YouTube video, but he's saying, you know, when fauci and the people in charge won't listen to his argument and he saying they won't listen to. We don't we don't know. He's saying they don't. So
54:57 He shouldn't be saying that they both should be a kiss. You'd have to watch the video cuz it's not radical. You're always going to have radicals and but that's why you have to say, okay. What's his credentials? What's this guy's background, or this ladies background? What are their credentials? What are their experience? Do? We are they are they are they somebody who deserves to be listened to? And I would say this guy probably has the credentials and the resume to be listened to. And when he's not then we wonder why we can't.
55:30 You're so people don't I was so then people lose trust in the system. And when people lose trust in the system, we have a nation that won't function because you don't trust people, don't trust the other sides motive both sides. Well, that I would also think one thing you said, you see, he's the chief medical officer in Texas, right to know. I also think that's where we get in trouble because
55:58 He says, nobody's listening to me.
56:02 Well, you know what to say is, anybody else saying anything similar. I mean, just this default that he says, nobody's listening to him. And so we shouldn't trust anybody because nobody's listen to this guy from Texas. I mean, you got it kind of stuff. I can go. Wait a minute here. So you basically got to the point where you felt that it has been, it has been approved. So, you felt more comfortable with it. Then I talked to enough medical people little sidebar conversations that were in a. We've had lots of vaccines in the and throughout the history of this country. And and so, you know, I got more comfortable, but I was never really sad that I will absolutely wouldn't do it. I
56:48 You know, I have never had very any real concerns about covid-19 ever, did and still tone and terms of whether that's naive or not. But I mean, it, it didn't change my world for my life. And, and so you didn't feel any reassurance, getting it. You did it, you did it. Because you felt, it was the right thing to do. It was definitely variant. This Delta. Makes it more, you know, it's not going to go away, obviously, working with my brother and listening to you. And, you know, I'm talking to other people. Who, who do, you know who aren't
57:27 Fear fear base people with covid saying, you know, they think the vaccine make sense that they think it's a smart move in. And but when I took it did, I also do I feel like I can go places? I could go before it's more comfortable. Now you gone anywhere you wanted to the entire time. For example, we've never had the conversation really as a country. What has been the cost of the choices? We did make, I mean the mental health cost, the addiction cost the drug cost. The I mean, I know people who are medicating. Now. I know people who just about lost their business. I know people who were forced to shut down for months, Who lit, who panicked, who were fearful, who didn't want to leave the house. What a horrible thing to do. And I look back and I think, okay. Just abide by the death rates and all that stuff. Has it all planned out. Was it a Justified?
58:27 Tell you I'm going, I don't know, you know the death rate.
58:31 Very, very, very, very, very, very low.
58:35 Sense of people in the United States. Have died from covid in fluid. I'm just saying the the chance of you dying of. It is very swim. So, slim that the what we put people through that were that got fearful probably cost them more than what covid-19 the Geico and bounced right back without any problems. And I'm not trying to minimize it cuz it obviously impact some people severely. But, oh my gosh, we took something. And and as I that, I absolutely don't think the approach was needed to be done like it was done, but I am. But I also try to give him a little bit of benefit of the doubt that they didn't really know what to do.
59:22 But look at the decisions made in hindsight and and, and all of a sudden you don't have to resort to closing down businesses and then shutting, you know, because you have dealt with it in the most effective way. And that's the back seat except for now, you need boosters and its back and a different. That's why. You know why that is so weird because people took too long to get the shot and in the time it took them to decide to get the shot. Then the virus has mutated. And that if they if people held their nose like they did, you know where people embraced it like they did polio or you know, maysles are whooping cough or you know, smallpox if people had said, you know, I'm going, you know, I want to do this for myself, my family and for my community, that's the
00:22 It would have been in, it would have been interesting. Had that been the response. I don't, you know, I don't disagree. If you play that out, it be interesting how that looked. So let me ask you what,
00:38 Are things, you hang your hat on. In terms of that? You know that you like when you look at how the government you think the government should work for people to lift people's boats in and make things more fair, and more Equitable, or I mean what are things that you look at and say, man, we it was amazing feeling point that the government has done this in, this particular situation that is made you proud of of the federal government and its ability to help people.
01:14 Well, I see with with covid Italy trying to deal with the unknown and she was saying, you know, and I know you've not agreed with how the powers-that-be have handled this because she felt that they can on the price was higher than it needed to be. But what happened is it when people said well, they didn't take long enough to develop it. So I'm not going to get it because it's you know, they did it so fast, will every lab in the world was trying to address a vaccine for covet. So the fact that they were able to do it fairly quickly spoke to this incredible.
01:54 Venture to figure it out because people were going in a people are dying of. It has been reluctant. Chosen not to are the reasons we're still in the middle of it because they can carry the virus and when you know in and so when they complain about, you know, we have to wear masks. So we can't do this. We can't do that. Their unwillingness to get the vaccine is, what is resulted in this problem.
02:29 Have you been in a? Cuz I know you and I talked about some of the things like the schools and closing and opening. So I mean, have you been okay all the way down the board with the decisions? Made how they've dealt with this will? I think it's where will it really has gotten tricky? Now? Is that youth are so susceptible to the Delta variant. They weren't to use weren't as susceptible to as covid. And so do I agree with how they've done the whole school thing? I tell you what?
03:00 I don't know how else you could have done it in a, we took those Kit and you want to talk about paying a price for mental health, you put these kids by themselves in a house day after day, after day after day, and expect them to learn when their parents are working. You know, some parents could stay home. Most can't, so did I. And then I think it's awesome. I mean, completely agree. Know what that is, kind of what you said about their intention. I mean, now we know that you can share that. This breakthrough thing is incredibly unsettling. I think.
03:40 But I do think people are trying, and I think the gentleman in Texas could be, he could do something that would have greater impact like travel to every Health Department in Texas and, and look what their procedure. And they must be hiding something, or they would have listened to me. Well, that's that's it. Doesn't help. Anybody go anywhere or do anything but it is a you can take issue after issue after issue. And you can find people who feel like one side is not being the is not being listened to in the same degree, whether it's climate change, whether it's a migration, whether it's I mean, you name, you can go
04:40 Download the list. And you can find people who say, you know, that they have opposing ideas and opposing about the impact of man. For example, of course, we have a climate that changes its changed on it off throughout history, but what role but we really don't have, I don't think we have healthy debates about both sides really having healthy debate about man's impact. And of course man has an impact. Of course it is there. 7 million people 7 billion people here. But what is that look like? And how reasonable is that? And what kind of benefits can be gained? And what kind of cost can be gained in those are all debates that honestly, if you're running a business you want both sides of the argument. You you take any business, making a decision in this country and they're going to have people who say it's a good decision because and they're going to have people say. It's not a good decision.
05:40 You want both side because before you spend ten billion dollars buying some company, you want to know if it's going to work or not. How many times does it not work? In this Private Industry with General Electric by in 10 different companies? In five years later. They're selling all five of them cuz they couldn't make any other work. But it somehow we've gotten to a place for that. You can have if you have a difference of opinion, then you your denier or your homophobic or I mean if you value traditional marriage, then all the sudden you hate gay people and it's like a room at the table for all conversations. I don't think it's a radical idea to think that men and women and traditional families. Probably give us the best opportunity of raising healthy kids. I don't think that's a radical idea, but it's me. It's been made to be radical because it doesn't go with them there that if you have to have a problem with gay people. Well, I have fur.
06:40 Two or gay. Who would tell you that? I that Eric doesn't have a problem with gay people, so somehow, but it's issue after issue after issue. And we have no longer given people. The ability to say. Okay. I have a different idea. They're, they're shut out and they're ridiculed, and I'm not saying a ride or not. But I've read enough of them about the climate to, there's some pretty powerful scientist to really question the whole alignment, you know, I wish there were right, because if you look at what you do, let me know. They might be right there, but the odds are the odds of them being, right? Maybe just as high as the odds of the people, you know, that's where you go back to motivation. Are we really isn't really about a cleaner environment?
07:31 I mean, you look at people make the argument about what it takes to truly build, a battery car, and the resources, and all sorts of stuff. And is it a fish and is it reasonable natural? Gas was probably a much more reasonable. But for some reason we can't do that has a carbon in the carbon, you know, I
07:59 I think I hope these scientists are right. I don't believe they are. I think there are many, many, many scientists who have have researched.
08:11 The warming of the environment, the atmosphere the weather changes. I mean, there's some pretty dramatic things happening, you know, or all of those just because time is change, probably not. And I, so, I'm hoping that our kids, get an opportunity to have a life similar to ours or a life that they won't. And I in a we've got it figured we need to have that conversation over and over and over again about what's actually happening to the climate.
08:42 I would prefer to go on that.
08:54 How she felt with fruit when you got your vaccine in?
09:03 So when we talk about me, you asked about me getting my vaccine. How did that make you feel? When I chose to get the vaccine but when you sent it on somebody, I'm the big sister and I had been trying for quite some time to nag. You into getting a vaccine and part of it is because you have pre-existing health problems, you know, you have a box on your heart that keeps you alive. I mean, so there was some reason to think you could be vulnerable to pre-existing medical condition. Then I decided I couldn't nag you into doing it. I mean, you just
09:39 Working, that was not going to be the way to do it. So that's what was curious about to me. How you ended up changing your mind. But when you send me that picture of your vaccine card, I did I burst into tears because I thought you know, you are loved by me by extended family by friends and I thought if we lose you because you're being
10:05 Stubborn. That was how heartbreaking that would be and how, how much I appreciated that you were willing to get the vaccine because we don't have to worry about you dying from covid and that I just was so appreciative of your willingness to do that. So you were the first person I told because I knew it was important to you and I didn't not do it took like torture you and and I know but I needed. Those are, those are decisions. I think people, you know, that you need to come to that place where you make those kind of decisions.
10:44 You know, for yourself and, and what, you know, so that you can just buy, should I do this or should I not? So I appreciate in the politics of that is what you're saying, you know.
11:02 When you think about the value that vaccines have for you and kind, it shouldn't take a whole lot of of thought to think there is value to this. It will keep me from dying. Will I get sick? Probably could I get really sick? May will I die? Probably not now, would I die if I didn't get it in and we're seeing more and more of that all the time. And you know, to think these people are putting their lives on the line is really sad. It's sad to watch and so unnecessary. Okay. Yes, go ahead. So, I was just going to say cuz we are at an hour and 11 minutes, which went by so quickly.
11:49 I'd like to think of how you would like to end this conversation and sometimes people say what surprised you most maybe you look at the closing questions, which are the
12:07 The blue ones and you guys can come up on one that you would like to dress. Or I can tell you some, what was your biggest concern about coming into this interview. Is there anything new you learned from our conversation? Do you think there's anything? We agree on? What are you proud of stuff? So, those type of questions and these are good. Kids. Are they all the same, two blue ones, the same or no?
12:40 Okay, I think we can start to wrap it up. Well, one thing I think that I've, when I see things I've learned about today that are surprising, one of the things that I'm sitting here, listening to you talk about your childhood versus by childhood is the whole, you know, we talked about and you know through counseling, I've told you that, you know, how much happens in your first 10 years in life because that's when you struggle the most to process it. And if you look at your first 10 years, between 59 and 69, and then mine are 64 and 74, right? In terms of I mean, when you talk about the seventies having such an impact on you, it it just to me, strikes me is going and how how I was so close to mom and dad still in that young age, and they didn't appreciate that. Rebellion.
13:31 Then the whole country kind of swings back to a more traditional place. By the time I'm in high school my sophomore year, you know Reagan gets elected in the country swings back to a more and then we go on what a year. No, 12 years of Republican, more Trina between Reagan and Bush, 12 years of more conservative, traditional or government. And so it's at every night. I haven't really always thought about that impact. So that something has to take away for me going out. We were a lot more impacted by the timing that we grew up in, and the fan. So, the family Dynamics, but then the societal like, Vietnam War was never something I ever registered with, and never felt it was as foreign to me as the Korean War.
14:31 And I was never in danger of going. I never really understood it. I just knew there was a lot of unhappiness with it. But where you had people, you knew they were older than you and we have a very different experience with that. I'll let you know when they were still the draft. I mean, there were people, that could still be drafted.
14:57 What was surprising?
14:59 Well, I mean, I think I mean that to me is one thing, you know, when you talk about, you know.
15:07 As we've gotten like, I look at our family in and we talked with you. Tim and I don't argue politics like we did three years ago, five years ago, two years ago, whatever. I think you and I don't argue as much. Like we did three years ago and part of it is and I was telling you last night, I think.
15:24 We spend less. We get to see each other last that it just becomes less important to. It's just like with my kids are you can ride on the mag on them to be bothered by my all the stuff. But if you're only going to see him like I see Denton 34 times to put them here for a week. And that's how much I see him for the month and I'm going to see him ten times a year. You're not you're not going to have those same conversation cuz you value, you start to realize this has that these experiences are limited where I think when you're younger you feel like you're always going to be in and out so you can
16:06 But this is what these times will let you know growing out of these times will end. You know, I know if I love this one, I think what they all have for me today. A couple of things cuz I didn't really ever put together your your view of government with kind of a philosophical view of humankind. So that was very interesting to hear. The other thing that I thought was interesting, as I said, I didn't ever think that anybody in my family would see it. As a positive thing that I changed jobs. That's not because that was very different. Then we went to your hobbies or interest, you're always learning and, you know, it in the job changing one thing, but I see it more just, you know, when you came up here and you were going to learn to do something new, that means it's, that is something to do. That's always, you know, what? I tell you why I want you to meet Mickey at some point, this gal town because I mean
17:06 Things about her person, you know, she's but you know, I admire people who have that resiliency to keep pushing and keep learning and keep trying though. And those came because you had to deal with hard realities. And and I'm not saying we
17:25 The people that I want people to have hard realities, but that's what really gives people when you try to eliminate all the hard realities or try to soften all the hard realities that people have going through the night. I think you keep people from always shaving, you know growing like they could or achieving the only thing I would add to that is that we know that the society treats people differently groups of people differently, and if you look at people of color
18:05 The whole thing is scared to make their lives difficult. And so, you know, I don't so it would be interesting to me to think how that would look if the intention really was to provide an equal playing field for folks that are different than we are. And and I don't I that's in a weird just now discovering how with redlining real estate in with all of these. That you know, there's just all these examples when we truly done as a society. The worst things that we could do to a group of people and I think it would be interesting to know with support what those folks would be able to contribute if the holes game wasn't
18:56 You know, wasn't pitted against them. And do you still think? Because I don't disagree those things happen, but do you still think that a 15 year-old black boy in this country? Just has unbeli unclimbable obstacles to. Let's hope he lives to be 16 or 17 or 18, depends, where you will. And where do you live in Garden City? Probably would he probably wouldn't get shot, like you wouldn't get him. If you got to go with my other black people, and we want, and it's all black on black murders in Chicago. That they deal weekend the ATM month, but I do think I will. I just think when you look at
19:49 The way that real estate is handled the way that people do when they're still laws. Limiting who can buy what? Where I think they're still impact. The old laws. You know, why?
20:05 I had somebody send me, who was it? Somebody sent me. And it was a pastor that did to sit. He did two shows on stamat system. Had his dematic. How do you say that? And and then why black lives matter is not the answer and he did and he's like they were both like 45 minutes shows. But he's like you got to listen to both of them. Cousin, Juanita talks about if you think there isn't racism in the system throughout, he talked about the red lining and how difficult it is. And then you look at these neighborhoods. And where do they build the Arenas? Where do they go in and build the downtown? When they're proving, they're going into these neighborhoods and make them all leave so they can build a new Arena. And so it's still happening there, still impact as a result of those things.
20:52 So it was eye-opening because you know, most people don't understand. You know, that black people that pop out was to go to the suburbs and they didn't get to go when you when you fought in the War and you came back for the GI Bill and most of that did not pertain to you and the opportunity to build how to buy houses that would increase in value. You know, so I think, you know, it would be I I I sent it to him one time. I don't understand.
21:25 Why we people have and why we, as a society have kept our feet on the back of these people of color. Why do we want less for them? I don't understand. Because I said to Tim, if everybody has opportunities The Pie gets bigger. There is a greater national product that there are more people contributing. There are more people buying houses. Why would we want? Why would we spend so much time? Directing, such hatred towards people of color and he said, because it's greed, you know, you don't want to share. Well, if all these people have opportunities, then there's more to share, we all end up with more traditionally historically, but towards black people was atrocious and but but you know, you watch a series on the racism against the Jewish
22:25 People in the minute, it was her true. What they did to the gym. I just finished the documentary on Hitler and what they did to the Jewish people to even for 30 years after, you know, you and your family would go to Switzerland to a bank to try to access stuff that's in the bank. And they would want a power of attorney that you this person's been dead. If he died in a concentration camp and you can't get access to the bank account because you don't have a power of attorney and that's happening up until two years ago today. You know, I like, I think
23:08 Hatred towards a Jewish people hatred towards people, people that are different, people had it in that kind of stuff. But I agree with you. I mean, I don't know the answer but I don't think we solved the problem. Well, at all the last 40 years with the Great Society in the Public's housing. It was in the trillions of dollars that have been port at. It has done anything to really that was not what I thought any other problem. I don't think that did, you know you and I both know we can continue indefinitely.
23:47 Years that I would like you guys to do. Cuz I want to kind of ended in a, in a overall sense of just one lesson. You want to see each other about your conversation. Well, I was going to say. So I've really enjoyed this experience and and I always enjoy when you and I talked about things because I think, you know, I have a lot of respect for you and I think you're very smart person and I think you, you know, you're well-read and you're knowledgeable and you you. So, I respect the things that you have, you know, your views. And, you know, one, when I look at the things that that I've learned today about you is, is how we were impacted. So differently. Based on the time frame, we grew up and your experiences in the sixties and seventies were and where you were at that age. You were much more moldable by those experiences that I
24:47 What is a little six-year-old or seven year old? And I think that's, that helps me understand why we went kind of different past at least politically cuz we had those different experiences when we were Fourteen and sixteen and eighteen and those kind of things. So that's been very neat to visit and learn about
25:09 Well, and I appreciate your willingness to do this and I think we know that we can have good conversations about most things and I love you. I love you too. I agree.