Natasha Rodriguez and Barbara Lucey: Cheerleading, Self-Confidence, and a Hero

00:00 Okay, great.

00:02 All right.

00:05 Hi, Natasha Rodriguez

00:07 Hi.

00:08 My name is Barbara Lucy I'm 69 in three days, so I guess I'm 68 still. And today is March 29, 2002. I'm in Florence, Massachusetts, on Zoom with Natasha Rodriguez And my relationship to her is that I hope we are new friends. We are certainly acquaintances and getting to know quite a lot about each other, but I would like to think we're new friends.

00:43 Lovely.

00:44 We're participating in a class together. I'm a guest for her intergenerational storytelling class at UMass. So are you ready?

00:58 Totally.

00:59 Okay. So what's something you've done in your life that's had a profound impact on who you are today?

01:12 So, for most of my life, about ten years, I was an all star cheerleader, and I. It really, even today, I'm retired now, but it really made an impact on me. It, like, showed me how to be comfortable with who I am, how to be confident in who I am. It was really the first thing that I did and got into that I was really good at. And it, like, in being good at something, it showed me how to be, like, proud of myself, of my accomplishments and what I've done. And I've made so many lovely friends and memories with this, you know, the incredible sport that it is. I've gone to so many different places. I probably wouldn't have gone otherwise, all in the country, but, I mean, I've basically traveled up and down the east coast at this point, and it was always such a lovely experience. My coaches have all been such lovely people, which I'm so blessed for. Some of them a little bit more harsh than others, like, all lovely, all the same. Some of the people that I've met in the cheerleading community, I'm still very close friends with. Now, some of my closest friends, some of my longest and dearest friends have been people that I've met in the gym or at competitions and from all over the country.

02:35 Can you give me an example of a coach or a friend that particularly comes to mind when you think of that?

02:42 I've got a few people that immediately popped into my head, so I guess I'll name a few. Firstly, my earliest coach, my very first coach that I've ever had in 2012, I want to say 2012. His name was Tuan, and he was the funniest person, and he was so down to earth, and he really made the effort to have, uh, connection to the athletes more than just a coach and an athlete. It was more like a friend. I never felt uncomfortable going up to him with questions. Questions about the routine. Not even just that. Like, to just chat with him about our day to day lives. And, I mean, at that point, I was 14. No, the hell was I in 2012? 1314 something around there. And it was just, like, really cool. I. He. He coached the team with his husband at the time, and they were both. I didn't really care for his husband, but he was lovely all the same. And I still talk to him now. And even now, I'll go to the gym to see the teams performing, and he'll be there, and he gives me just a bit. He is such a good hugger. He gives me the biggest and warmest hugs, and we just chat about life. He also went to UMass, so we'll talk about that, and he's so lovely. And then for a friend, my very dear friend Jacob, I met him, actually, before he joined my cheerleading gym. This was at a cheerleading competition, I don't even know how many years ago, and he was taking a picture with people from his team. He was at a different cheerleading gym at that point, and I was so extroverted in that environment, in a cheerleading competition environment. I had my heelys on, and I just remember sliding on my heelys into the picture, dropping to a knee and photobombing it. It was so funny. We didn't exchange contact information. We had maybe a two minute conversation and laughed about it. He was like, that was the smoothest photobomb I've ever seen in my entire life. And I was like, thank you.

04:57 Maybe shot you immediately, right?

04:59 Yeah. And then two years later, he actually tried out for my cheerleading gym, and he was. We weren't on the same team at first, but we practiced at the same time, and we were just immediately, like, clicked. And he's my best friend in the entire world now. After that year, we have five years, I think, or somewhere around there. We were on the same team together, and we were inseparable. And even now, like, I'm always. He lives in Connecticut, I'm always driving over and, like, just see him and have a good time, and he is really so lovely.

05:28 Oh, it sounds really important, both of those connections. Can I go back to when you started cheerleading and how old you were and what happened that you think made you want to start, made you want to go in that direction?

05:45 Right? So I was in the fifth grade, and I had some of my closer friends. One of my friends, her name was Alyssa. She's here to a team, a gym called USA Wildcats. And I just. Every time we would go out for recess, she would be doing these flips outside. And that was. I think I did acrobatics before then, but I couldn't. I was never that, like, advanced. I wasn't able to do what she was able to do. And I was like, that is so cool. And so she got into talking with me about cheerleading, and I was like, that sounds like so much fun. Like, I really want to do that. And actually, I have such a funny story about that because, well. Oh, God. So this was in the fifth grade. I.

06:31 You were eleven or ten or something?

06:33 Yeah. I casually brought it up to my uncle and he was so on board. He was like, this is what you want to do. Like, you go for it. Like, you're young and this is. You just try it out. You know what I mean? And I told my mother, my mother, Washington, super on board. And then I had a.

06:51 So this is Uncle Mark, right?

06:52 Uncle Mark this. Yes. My sweet uncle Mark. But something happened. I did actually didn't start cheerleading that year because I had a little bit of a behavioral issue when I was punished. And then my mom decided that my grand punishment would be that I wasn't allowed to do cheerleading that year. And of course, Uncle Mark, he had to be on board because it was mom's choice. So it was actually not.

07:14 How did you feel when that happened?

07:16 Oh, my goodness, I was so devastated. No, I was really, really upset. But I knew I could start the next year. So really, I kind of, I think, rationalized at that point that it wasn't the end of the world. But, I mean, rye was really. I was so mad because there was a. It was such a stupid situation that brought on that punishment that there could have been. There were so many other ways around it. But again, I was in the fifth grade. Like, I was ten or eleven. I was temperamental. So, yeah, you're exploring your.

07:49 Your boundaries, right?

07:51 Yeah, sure. Oh, no, it was actually. I'll tell that story because that funny. The story is so funny. I was with my mother. We were shopping, and I hated shopping when I was little. Like, so much. So after we were done off, I complained to my mother enough that she was like, okay, we'll go home. And I was in the car. She was like, oh, we're gonna make a stop real quick. I'm going to my friend's house. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna wait in the car, or whatever. So she's in there for. It couldn't have been more than ten minutes. And I just threw the biggest temper tantrum because I wanted to go home. So I took my phone and, like, threw it in the car because I was just so mad. I was in the car by myself. I cracked her windshield in her code. So that was. That was the big ordeal that made it so that I couldn't share that year, really such an expensive fix on a car that I'm surprised that it was that tiny of a little punishment, because, really, in retrospect, it wasn't that big of that punishment. But, yeah, the next year, Uncle Mark was like, are you still interested in doing this? And I was like, yeah, you know, I really am. He was like, all right, let's do this. Let's get you to tryouts. He drove me to tryouts, and I made the team, and, you know, everything happened from there.

09:06 What else did he do to help make that dream come true for you?

09:09 Oh, God, I much. He is really such an angel. He. Well, so when I first started, I was cheerleading in Wilbraham. I lived in Ludlow, so it was like a five to ten ish minute drive, depending on traffic. He would pick me up at my mom's house and drive me to cheerleading practices. I think at that point, it might have been twice a week, but he made sure that I had a reliable transportation so that I could get there. He would bring me to all of my competitions. At that point, they were all pretty local. I think the furthest one was in Providence, Rhode island. And he, you know, no complaints. He would bring me. We would stay in a hotel. He would come. He was my number one supporter. He was always right in the front of the stage, like, so happy. The first one to give me the biggest hug when I walked off stage. And cheerleading also is, like, a really inexpensive part, not just for the traveling, but really, like, tuition every month is insane. And then there's the choreography. You have to pay a choreographer uniforms. There's a competition fee, so not even a traveling fee, like a fee to compete in that competition. You know, my uncle really just. He knew. He saw how happy that this was making me, that he had no qualms about, you know, like, financially supporting my cheerleading career. He was really just so happy, and he was. Knew that this was something that I always wanted to do, so he just. He did that for me.

10:36 He really sounds like he did it for your mom, too, in a way, because, you know, it made it possible for her to give you something she might not have been able to afford herself.

10:47 Yeah, not to. Absolutely.

10:51 So how is he related to you, your uncle Mark?

10:54 My uncle is my father's sister's husband, so he's not related to me by blood. He's related to me by marriage.

11:02 It sounds like blood is not always the strongest. It sounds like he just really saw himself as somebody who wanted to be your hero, you know, wanted to make you his hero, you know?

11:18 And my hero, he is. He really is. I love him so much, and really, I am so thankful to him. Yeah.

11:27 I remember another time we were talking and you were telling stories, and the question I had asked you was, who had been the kindest person to you in your life? And that's how I first learned about Uncle Mark. And he was the one you gave as an answer to that, that his kindness just was. Is in every part of him and every way that he's interacted with you through the years.

11:50 Yeah, absolutely. It's not even just in the cheerleading aspect. I mean, I've had so many times in my life, he would bring me every Tuesday or Wednesday. He would either bring me, you know, a 20 piece nugget from McDonald's just because he could, or, like, a domino's pepperoni pizza and, you know, Easter bunny things on Easter. He would bring me a care package with, like, a bunch of candies in a basket with a. He recycled the same picture of the Easter bunny every year. And I was just so young and naive, obviously, because I was a kid. I was like, oh, my gosh, the Easter Bunny sent this to me. He was so cute, and he still has a voicemail on his phone from one day. I didn't get my Easter bunny care package on time, and I called him, like, crying, saying the Easter Bunny didn't come and that the Easter bunny forgot me. And he saved it and still brings it up on occasion because he thinks that it's the funniest thing in the whole world. I'm like, come on. I was, like, five.

12:48 So is he a father, as well?

12:53 He's not. He actually doesn't have any children of his own, so I would like to think that he thinks of my sister and I as his children.

13:01 Sounds like. It sounds like he really stepped up. So, getting back to cheerleading, what do you think your future will be in cheerleading? I really will contribute to the sport. It's kind of two questions, but, yeah.

13:25 I'm not quite sure exactly. I've kind of been flirting with the idea of coming out of cheer tire meant retiring from cheerleading. I would love to do another year, maybe on a team with no tumbling, no flipping around, just stunting, because I don't know if my body can handle all that anymore, but I'm starting with that idea because I really do miss it so much, and I just would love to make new friends. It's a really good outlet to have connections with other people that you may not get every day. And not only that, it's just a great source of physical activity and staying active and what have you. But again, I'm just flirting with that.

14:12 Can you just tell me more about the differences between stunting and, you know, those three areas of cheering?

14:19 Yeah. So, stunting, that's when you're, you know, like, holding up other people and doing what those. That structure is called a stunt. There are different kinds of stunts, but, you know, they're all essentially the same thing. The human structure. People on the tops and bottoms, not really like a pyramid that you think, obviously, like, people are on their hands and knees, and people are climbing on top of each other very much. Not that. So that's the stunting section. And then there's the jumping section, which is exactly how it sounds. You jump up and your legs are coming up. You're doing, like, a straddle jump or a hurdle, which is like one leg in front and one leg behind. And it's a very short section. It maybe lasts one single eight count or two eight counts, depending on how many jumps there are. I and then there is tumbling, which is flipping. Like, in gymnastics, they do their floor routine, and they're doing the roundup, the back hamstrings, the flips, and what have you. That's the tumbling in cheerleading. And there's the running tumbling, which is what you see typically in gymnastics or routines. And there is standing tumbling, which is basically just how it sounds. You stand and you're not running from a corner, and you do, like, backhand springs and back flips from, like, just like a standing position.

15:35 So, tumbling can be combined with stunting. When you try to get people to the top, sometimes they tumble up and tumble down. Yeah.

15:42 Yeah. Sometimes we'll do that, depending on what level of cheerleaders. Seven levels of cheerleading now, actually, when I retired from cheerleading, there was only six levels.

15:53 Wow.

15:54 Yeah.

15:55 Tell me more about that.

15:56 So, level one is as basic as it comes. It's mostly like forward rolls and cartwheels and back walk overs, which is like a back bend and kicking over, and then we'll skip the other levels because it's basically just like, every step is new thing. And then level seven is really just everything that you can do. Like, the hardest skill that you can do is it's a little bit easier than gymnastics because we're not doing multiple flips because that's illegal. And cheerleading because I'm. It used to not be illegal, but there was a lot of injuries that came from it. But. So the hardest skill you do is like a double twisting layout. So you do a layout and you twist twice. Or I guess the most elite skill would not just be that, but, like a flip before that double twisting layout. So it's like a combination of skills.

16:45 Yeah, that sounds pretty hard. Not Olympic level gymnastics, but pretty damn hard.

16:50 Yeah. I mean, considering all the other factors in a cheerleader, it's all of and 30 seconds. But lifting people is not easy, too. So having to do an entire stunting sequence and having to run from the corner with all you've got and throw a tumbling path and land on your feet and then smile after, it's really massive.

17:08 You land on someone's shoulder, which I've seen them do, or land on somebody's hands are terrifying to somebody like me, who doesn't know anything about doing that.

17:18 No, it's terrifying as somebody who does that. We had a stunt sequence when somebody had to do it was really easy. In retrospect. It was like a back hit, actually. No, it was not easy at all. This is probably the hardest routine I've ever done in my entire life. It was a two man stunt, so it was only me and one other person. And the flyer. The flyer did a standing back handspring, and from that back handspring, we grabbed their shoulders and their thighs and threw them all the way to the top and caught them from their backhands. So instead of landing on their feet on the ground, they landed on their feet in our hands, and it was only two people underneath, so. So I had the foot in the, like the calf, and then the other person was standing underneath the sun, and it was actually. They landed on one leg.

17:59 Wow.

18:00 Yeah. That was not easy. But we started the routine with that, thankfully, so it wasn't like we were exhausted at that point, because it would have been impossible.

18:10 Right. Sounds like that's very clear in your memory.

18:13 Oh, yeah. I mean, I just remember that I was like, man, that routine was something else. I mean, that was. At the time, I had a coach who was quite the believer of tough love. He was one of the toughest coaches I've ever had in my entire life, and he really wanted us always to be pushing past our limits, and that routine was very much an example of that. I mean, I don't remember ever being so tired coming off the floor. Yeah.

18:44 So what do you think that you, Natasha Rodriguez had to contribute with all of who you are to cheering that was unique for you, or, you know, was. Was your brand of what you contributed right. When you were really cheering actively?

19:05 I mean, I have a few examples of that in my gym specifically. I really. I was so I had. What's the word? It's not when you have to do something accordingly before, at least, for example, like a competition. It's a s superstition. I was very superstitious when I was chewing, and I kind of started that for everybody, especially with my last year that I was cheerleading, I was a coach as well as an athlete, and my superstitions carried on to my junior team that I was coaching. And from there, I think that cycle has really just continued. When we were walking through the competition, I would make sure nobody, if we were walking together, we were walking to warm up as a team. I made sure if there was, like, a pillar or if there was, like, a gate that we had to walk through and there was, like, two sections of the gate, we could not split the pole as a team. So if we were walking as two people, we had. If somebody goes to the right of the gate, people, everybody has to go to the right of the gate. If somebody's going to the left of the pillar, everybody has to go to the left of the pillar. I had a stuffed animal that I had to put on the cheerleading floor every time we compete. And I actually have a picture of it somewhere. No, I guess I don't. It's somewhere. But it was a little.

20:28 What was the stuffed animal?

20:30 It was a little bunny in a blue cheerleading outfit. And I'm pretty sure I named it Bunny.

20:38 What are these superstitions for you? While you were doing them, were you trying to prevent something bad from happening, or were you.

20:46 It was mostly something for my peace of mind, so that if all these things were done correctly before performing, our performance would go well. So, yeah, I just wanted to make sure it was very much like that. So if I didn't bring my stuffed animal, we were cursed from the beginning. We weren't going to do well in that competition. If I didn't have my McGriddle with my hash brown and a side of medium orange juice, I wasn't going to perform well myself.

21:14 How. How did that work out in reality?

21:17 I mean, in reality, I don't know how much of a difference it made. I mean, I've always. I would like to say that I always performed pretty well. And as a team, we always perform generally pretty well. So I don't know how much my superstitions help, but, yeah, so my super, from what I've heard from my previous coach, we text on occasion, those superstitions still very much do exist in the gym, and they have some also. Drinking Red Bull is something else that a lot of people are doing now. Cause that was another one of my superstitions. I had to drink a can of Red Bull before going into warmups. And so now a lot of the younger athletes who are now, I'm sure they're in high school, that I used to coach drinking Red Bulls before competing. But in a more, a wider example, in cheerleading in general, at those competitions, I saw athletes like, riding scooters, like little razor scooters around her, and I wanted to be different, but I also wanted to be mobile. So I went to my local journeys shoe store and asked them if they had any pairs of heelys left. And, man, their eyes lit up. They're like, you want a pair of heelys? This is like 26 or 2014. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, give me a pair of heelys. I got an adult sized pair of heelys, and I wore them to my cheerleading competitions for years until they broke. And I was just always. I was the girl on the heelys, and everybody knew me as the girl on the heelys. And especially my last few years of cheerleading, I saw that more and more people were wearing heelys around accomplishments. And also, consequently, I went to more and more venues that banned heelys. Yeah, unfortunately. So, really, it's such a convenient way to get around a huge convention center. I mean, I remember I went to the Georgia World Congress center, which is a convention center in Atlanta for cheerleading competitions. And that place is huge on the inside. I mean, I think at the same time, there was more than ten cheerleading floors at the same time, with teams competing in different areas of the convention center. Having Healey's was so convenient for them because my feet hurt so bad from walking and I didn't have to walk. I could just pop on my heels and, you know, go a mile to the other cheerleading floor that's being performed on. You know what I mean? So, yeah, I think that those two.

23:30 Things are probably kind of in its essence. What do you think? I mean, how did cheering so frequently and having it being such a big part of your life, how did that make you feel about yourself that was different from how you felt in the rest of your life?

23:52 How does that make me feel about.

23:53 Myself, or did it change the way you felt in the rest of your life, too? I mean, what kind of difference has it made in your life, I guess, is what I'm asking.

24:02 Yeah. Again? Yeah. I mean, it made me really, like, before I was cheerleading, I was pretty mousey. I mean, I still kind of am. I'm still a little bit of a social introvert. But, I mean, before I started cheerleading and before I started getting comfortable in that sport, I really, like, kept myself so much. I didn't talk, like, ever. And after, you know, that I, like, showed me that mostly that nobody really cares what you're doing. They're not judging you as deeply as you think that they are. And especially in those cheerleading competition environments. I was really doing the most outrageous stuff that I would never dream to do in public by myself. And really, the reactions that I was getting was not of pure disgust and annoyance. Like, people would actually laugh, and they really enjoyed it. So I felt more comfortable being that extroverted side of myself. I found it quite enjoyable to be that side of myself. I mean, I. Even with cheerleading, I didn't let that side of myself show so much. In my hometown growing up, I was. Didn't have very many friends and loved well, because all of my friends that I was comfortable with all lived in Connecticut. So I didn't really. Not that I didn't care to make new friends, but I didn't really care to make new friends anyway. So it's still kind of reserved. But, I mean, in any other situation, I mean, I found, like, improvements on even things like calling the doctor and making a doctor appointment. You know what I mean? Like, even small, going to the grocery store by myself, going even, like, at school. Like, once I started, you know, going to the dining hall by myself, having a conversation with somebody next to me that I probably wouldn't have otherwise. It truly, really has impacted my personality in so, so many different ways. It has made me more even, like, a little bit more flamboyant in the way that I dress. Like, I'll wear these out, like, really colorful, like, outfits if I can. Usually, I try to stray away from colors, but when I do, I do it. I do the thing. I milk it, and it's incredible. And I think that's mostly from, you know, wearing huge bows and having my hair teased up to the sky and having this incredible makeup and glitter everywhere. It makes me feel so beautiful. And I, like, try to incorporate that even then, obviously not right now, I'm wearing a sweater, and I just really thought about it and went to class and came home. But, yeah.

26:32 So how does all this play into the concept, the feeling of loneliness and isolation that comes from being a child whose foot was in two different worlds in school and in cheerleading and kind of being a college student and having to, you know, establish yourself all over again with new people? And how does that whole theme of loneliness weave its way through this story?

27:08 Gosh, I mean, this mostly in, like, lower education through to high school, that was. That question is mostly relevant because, again, like I said, all of my friends were in Connecticut, really, most of them, with the exception of one friend that I was comfortable with in the later ends of middle school and all through high school, I really didn't have. I had acquaintances in my town, people that I was comfortable saying hi with in the hallway, maybe, but not really people that I hung out with. So, really, I mean, I was only. I was only in Connecticut at the cheerleading gym three days a week for two and a half hours at a time. All the time that I wasn't there, I was mostly alone. And, you know, in retrospect, it really was kind of sad, like, because, you know, I was just spending most of my time in my bedroom at home, watching tv or playing games or doing homework. And really, my only, like, outlet to, you know, relieve stress or have a really good time was when I was in Connecticut at the cheerleading gym with all. With my people, you know? Yeah. I mean, again, I have some behavioral issues and really, like, cheerleading, even that was one of the only outlets that I had to kind of, like, expend energy, whether it be, like, expending negative energy or positive. It was really. Yeah. I mean, I'm in college. I only cheered my freshman year. And even that then, it was a little bit less of an extreme example from high school and middle school. But I was spending my time at cheerleading competitions. I was spending my time at the. The gym in Connecticut. And it took away from some of my time, you know, as a student. You know, sometimes my mind would be in different places if I had an exam I needed to study for or if I had friends that were going out to the dining hall or going out to do something fun. Like, sometimes I would have to really, like, seclude myself and be like, I have other things to do. I have other things to focus on. Oh, I have to get ready to go to Connecticut. Actually, I can't go out tonight. I. Because tomorrow I have to be awake and in Rhode island at 07:00 in the morning. You know what I mean? So it's definitely taken away some things, and it's made me feel a little bit more lonely. And it's given me fomo pretty bad in my freshman year. But really, I wouldn't have traded it for the world because I had the most fun my freshman year, especially because I was coaching at the time, too.

29:55 So, yeah, sounds like it was really important to you. So, one last question. So how do you think you'll contribute to the sport in the future? I mean, you kind of talked about it in terms of what, what it would do for you to get back into cheering. But what do you think? What's, what do you think you'll contribute to others that are also in the sport and to the sport itself?

30:22 To the sport itself? I still think there's a lot of cheerleading is still pretty stigmatized. I think that people are assuming that they're, you know, the peppy little athletes that are just cheering on other people and are in this sport for the sake of encouraging other sports that people actually care about. And I like, really, I mean, all through high school even, and still now, will always be that person to break that down and really, like, get to the point of the fact that also cheerleading does existential. And it's really, I think that today it's better with new documentaries on Netflix coming out, like the cheerleading documentary about the Navarro cheerleaders. And there are a few about all star cheerleading that haven't gotten the popularity that that show in particular has gotten. But I think people are starting to see the sport for what it is, and it's really refreshing. And I am for the sport. I'm gonna continue to, you know, advocate for it and talk about, you know, its benefits and really how it is difficult and its a relevant sport. It is, yeah.

31:28 And it sounds like it has the potential to be personally transformational, too.

31:33 Yeah.

31:34 You know, and thats how I learned about it. Before I met you, I didnt know anybody who had done that kind of competitive cheering, and I had just seen it on tv a couple of times, and I, you know, you really did open my eyes as to what's involved and the kind of dedication that's required. Yeah, I think you don't maybe pat yourself on the back quite enough to be able to see how all those years that you really were dedicated and, you know, you showed up and Uncle Mark kind of helped. But if it hadn't been for your dream, you know, he wouldn't have had dream to support, so. But it was your dream. I'm very impressed.

32:16 Thank you. Thank you. So much, and I'm so glad to have been able to share this and talk to you about it. This is incredible.

32:25 Thank you.

32:26 Of course.

32:29 Okay, so I can hear. I.