Nicole Poole and David Bowen

[00:07] NICOLE POOL: Howdy. My name is Nicole Pool I am somehow 52 years old. The date is June 22, 2022. I'm in the StoryCorps virtual recording booth, and I am here with Dave, my first name. And I'm here with Dave Bown my one small step conversation partner.

[00:40] DAVE BOWN: Yes, my name is Dave Bown I am 59 years old. The date is June 22, 2022. I'm in the StoryCorps virtual recording booth, and I'm here with Nicole, my one step. My one small step conversation partner.

[00:57] NICOLE POOL: Okay. I am 59, happily married, and the father of an amazing 26 year old daughter who is fairly recently engaged. Losing my dad to cancer a few years ago was very hard on me and my family. I am conservative, but consider myself open minded. I am devoutly pro life and generally pro business. I'm very concerned. Our country is going backwards on gender and race issues, and we need to come together as the rancor and division needs to cease. We are all one people, and we have to start acting like it.

[01:36] DAVE BOWN: Hi. I'm a visual and performing artist who works to uplift and engage my community in concepts of place and belonging. I am back in my hometown of Oklahoma City after spending a couple of decades in New York City and Paris. I am the daughter of an artist and a survivor of complex trauma, or CPTSD. So being back here, where my beliefs about the world were constructed, has been equally challenging and rewarding. I look forward to meeting you and hearing about your life as well.

[02:08] NICOLE POOL: Well, okay. I also lost my father to cancer in 2013.

[02:17] DAVE BOWN: I'm sorry to hear that.

[02:18] NICOLE POOL: Thank you. And I'm sorry for your loss also. That was a really formative time for me. That really kind of threw my identity into a tailspin. Know who I was unless I was in relation to my dad. Can I ask how. How that. Either. How that experience was for you or tell me a little something that you loved about your dad.

[02:45] DAVE BOWN: The experience was absolutely horrific. He died very slowly. Over two years. He died in a lot of pain. It was really hard when his. When his caregivers, my mom was a primary caregiver. Me and my brother were secondary. It was hard seeing a man like that because my dad was a military man. He was always. He always projected strength to me. And I looked to him so many times for him to look out for me and protect me, and there he was, just getting worse and worse and worse and worse. And, like, a part of me, I think, kind of died with him. It's been. It's been four years since. I mean, it definitely does get better. I'm definitely better now than I was two years ago and one year ago. But, you know, we just had father's day, so he was on my mind then, and, yeah, the one thing I really liked about my dad, we really bonded through sports, and he made sports fun, and we went to a lot of sporting events together. He was at every one of my basketball games, football games. He loved it. We bonded through it. It made us closer maybe than maybe than we might have otherwise been. But, you know, I miss him every day, and I really appreciate you asking me about that. And I have a question for you, if that's okay.

[04:08] NICOLE POOL: Sure.

[04:09] DAVE BOWN: Yeah. You had mentioned that you are a survivor of PTSD, and I'm wondering if you're willing to talk about that in how much detail? Because I have a similar experience. I'd really like to hear yours.

[04:23] NICOLE POOL: Oh, wow, that sucks. I'm sorry that you have a similar experience.

[04:29] DAVE BOWN: Well, I shouldn't say I'm sorry. I shouldn't say similar, but I don't know what your experience is. So.

[04:34] NICOLE POOL: Suffering. Suffering makes me sad for others. Thank you for asking. I am pretty open about it because living in shame is a thing that I think is pervasive in our culture, and it can cause a lot of harm. So complex trauma is if you, in your formative years, if you go through a succession of events, from chaos to abuse to neglect, that really shapes how your brain forms. Kids try to make sense of the world, and it's too big for a child to think, oh, the world is bad. And so you internalize it and go, oh, well, I must be bad if these things are happening to me. And that really had the effect of isolating me from other people. I sort of othered myself. I felt like everything good in the world was for other people. And I was just sort of doomed to be this weird little dark spot that was just going to be continually lonely and sad. And so recovering from that, I knew that I had been affected by something all my life, but I thought I was just. I'm just doomed. And then after my dad died, I noticed that, man, I was acting in ways that I didn't understand. I was getting really angry and I depressed and taking, you know, risks and acting out in ways that I just didn't. I didn't want to identify with those things. And so I started. I started a therapy called CPT complex. No, cognitive processing therapy, which I had heard about on a podcast radio lab called Ten Sessions, I think. And there's, like, homework, and it helps identify limiting beliefs, and that was really helpful, and that opened up some stuff. And then I did EMDR, which was extraordinary. It's like tapping and going through traumatic events and reprocessing them. And now I'm in a talk therapy that I find very helpful. And, and a lot of it is just revisiting my relationship with the world, with myself, my concepts of who I am and what I'm capable of. That was long winded. Did that answer any of your question?

[07:21] DAVE BOWN: Oh, my God, it did. First of all, I wanna say I'm really sorry for the things that you've gone through.

[07:25] NICOLE POOL: Thank you.

[07:27] DAVE BOWN: You seem to have this amazing, upbeat, bubbly spirit about you, which, which, frankly, is really amazing and, you know, gift that you, that you give off. You know, even though we're not in the same room, I think that's kind of amazing that that's where you are in your life, at least the little that I can see of you. You seem like a happy person, even though you've been through these incredibly traumatic events. And the only other thing I wanted to ask, and if you don't want to get into the details, I certainly understand. I. I just wanted to know, like, did you have. Was it one abuser? Was it multiple abusers? Was it different types of abuse? And again, if this is stuff you don't feel comfortable talking about, I'm not. I was just curious.

[08:07] NICOLE POOL: Right.

[08:08] DAVE BOWN: As to what referring to, if you're willing to talk about it.

[08:11] NICOLE POOL: Well, I mean, I don't want to get into a lot of details because, you know, there's a lot of this that I really haven't even discussed with my family.

[08:20] DAVE BOWN: Of course. Of course.

[08:22] NICOLE POOL: That being said, do you know what the ace test is?

[08:25] DAVE BOWN: I do not.

[08:26] NICOLE POOL: It's called adverse childhood experiences. And there are, like ten questions of, you know, did such and such happen in your home before the age of blah? And they say, they say statistics show that if you have an ace score of like, four or higher, you're more likely to feel suicidal or depressive or, you know, have a hard time in the world. My score is a nine. So there were adverse events on multiple fronts, from violence to chaos to neglect to sexual trauma. And I felt a lot of shame about that for a really long time. And unfortunately, I'm realizing that it's a lot more common than I understood. And just knowing myself and how I behaved because of all of this in a state of kind of unawareness, but trying to feel better and so acting out because I know what I've been through, if I realize that it's a lot more common than I thought. It gives me such compassion for other people and what other people might be going through and why they're behaving like they are. You know, a lot of it is just an attempt to try to feel better and lash out against the world. And if I think of the kid that I was that experienced all of this, I can't help but think of the kids that other people were. And, yeah, it makes me feel really. It makes me feel a sense of solidarity and hope, strangely. So, thank you for asking. Can I ask why? You know, what do you respond to in that? You don't have to get into specifics, but it.

[10:31] DAVE BOWN: Well, a number of things. Abuse, unfortunately, was kind of rampant on one side of my family, and it was sexual in nature of multiple. Multiple female cousins. And I've done my best to try to talk them through it at points I can, whereas I'm. But I'm not a professional. So some of them. In one case, I was the only person that my cousin ever told.

[11:04] NICOLE POOL: Oh.

[11:05] DAVE BOWN: So I didn't do it directly, but through talking with her, I got her into therapy, which I thought was really important, because I just felt like she was at rock bottom. And these were things that happened as a child, and she didn't address them until she was in her fifties, so she didn't even acknowledge it until I were in her fifties. And the sad thing was, the first cousin who came forward, this would have been back in the seventies, back at a time when people just didn't believe abusers. I mean, they just generally didn't. If whoever the perpetrator was considered to be a, quote unquote, good guy by society, therefore he couldn't commit abuse. And, you know, I'm a struggling Catholic, and, you know, the clergy abuse scandal in my faith is just, oh, gosh, it's knocked a lot of us back, and, you know, and in ways, it's really hard to come to terms. So there's a lot of. A lot of pent up anger there, a lot of disbelief, a lot of. A lot of reconciling that. You know, I come to believe that I can't trust people and institutions and all different types of things in life that maybe as a ten or a 15 year old, I trusted them instinctively and without question. And I think that's really bad. And, Mac, I just think everyone should be questioned. Um, you know, and I don't mean question directly to their face. I'm just like, I just don't think we should take anybody for granted that, oh, they're a good person, therefore, they can spend oodles of time with my five year old son or whatever.

[12:48] NICOLE POOL: Right.

[12:49] DAVE BOWN: You know, and I just. I really appreciate you being so open and honest with yours, because I really do believe that speaking about these things lessens the toxicity that we have built up inside. And every time we talk about them a little bit, we let go a little bit of that, and we trend towards a more healthier view on life and people.

[13:12] NICOLE POOL: Let me take that in for just a second. Wow. First, let me back up and say how extraordinary that your cousin could come to you. Being able to go to a guy, especially a guy in your family, to open up trust is the biggest, hardest thing to overcome. Or it was, for me, trust of other people, and that you were not only there for her, but that you had lived your life in a way that made her feel that she could trust you. That is a huge thing.

[13:48] DAVE BOWN: Thank you. Thank you for saying that. That means a lot to me.

[13:53] NICOLE POOL: And number two, this is just going to take me a while to process. It's beautiful, Dave. And, you know, especially as someone who's gone through, you know, as you say, a struggling Catholic, I. That must be really, really hard for you to watch all of this come out and, you know, and where's the line between faith and trust and power and responsibility? That's a really hard thing. And it's much easier to not think about it. It's much easier to kind of double down into our own beliefs and anger than it is to question things and feel sadness. And I just thank you. Thank you for having the presence of mind and heart to just be honest and vulnerable about all of that.

[14:57] DAVE BOWN: I mean, appreciate those words.

[15:01] NICOLE POOL: You are absolutely bucking a stereotype there, mister.

[15:07] DAVE BOWN: Well, I think that's maybe the. Maybe one of the points of this whole thing with storycorps is that sometimes we get away from our stereotypes. We act with the betterment of the majority of people in mind and not, like, our little tribe. And that's one of my biggest concerns. I just see people running to their little tribe, these little.

[15:27] NICOLE POOL: Yeah.

[15:28] DAVE BOWN: And we just keep getting broken down in these ridiculous, immutable characteristics that we have, you know, like, yes, I'm a man, yes, I'm white, but I'm like, I'm a human being first. All those other things are, like, so secondary to who I am. And if we look at each other as human beings first, it's so much easier to then communicate and then say, okay, well, maybe we disagree on these topics, but like, if you never stop looking at me as a human, I'll never stop looking at you as one. And so we'll always have that in common. We can go forward with our differences from a state of mind of like, okay, you're different from me, but we're essentially the same in the most basic and fundamental key way. Again, being humans and everything else after that can work itself out.

[16:18] NICOLE POOL: Rock on. Yes. Yes. I mean, I love this conversation. I started an arts group here in Oklahoma City. Oklahoma City is full of an extraordinary spectrum of fabulously strange and complex people. You know, we've got more cultures here where one melting pot poured into 39 nations. And there's a lot of diversity here and a lot of diversity of thought. And our leadership is very, very hard lined. You know, like, I don't even know. Our leadership seems to be more in line of, like, let's fall into camps than really kind of being there for the people. It feels like an advertisement rather than any kind of leadership. And so the arts group that I have started is right in line with what you're talking about, where people from a whole lot of different cultures who come together to create together through collaboration and having so many voices around adding to what we're doing, that creates something that is so rich and so much larger than any of us could have come up with on our own. So I know that it's possible, you know, I know that that deep collaboration is possible between people of different beliefs. Like, a great lot of our donors are hardline Trump voters because they're like, well, it feels like you're trying to include everyone. A lot of people, a lot of my family from rural Oklahoma, they don't feel comfortable around the arts. You know, we're, we're, we're. I don't know. I don't know what they think.

[18:27] DAVE BOWN: You're weird. That's what you are, weird. And I know some of my best friends are musicians, and I know the stereotype. They look at my, from my friends, and most of them are on the left side of the aisle. They'll say to me privately, oh, you know, they're, they're weird. They don't necessarily say it in, because weird is a pejorative term, but they don't necessarily mean it in that term. But I know what you're saying. I know exactly what you're saying by people maybe out in more rural areas that look at what you do or you look at the arts and they, they poo poo them, or they, you know, they think that's not real work, you know, and I'm sure you've heard different, different mass machinations of that. That. And, yeah, I mean, so it sounds like what you're saying to me is that, and I don't want to label you, I don't know if you consider yourself democrat or liberal or whatever, but you're in a state that is so conservative. And I'm assuming Oklahoma City is very conservative as well, although I don't know that to be a fact. Is it, is that a little more mixed?

[19:32] NICOLE POOL: It's a little more mixed.

[19:35] DAVE BOWN: Are Republicans usually the leaders?

[19:37] NICOLE POOL: And we have a progressive republican mayor who is really, really concerned about taking care of the people. And he's, even though they're of the same party, our mayor is very much different than our governor, which would make sense.

[19:59] DAVE BOWN: Right. Because the state as a whole is much more conservative than Oklahoma City is as a town. Right. Isn't that generally true?

[20:06] NICOLE POOL: I would say our leadership as a whole is much more conservative. The people that I've met, you know, people in rural Oklahoma, they're humans. They're humans who are afraid. They've been given a whole line of stuff about how liberals want to come take away their land and, you know, start marijuana farms and make their kids queer. Well, I mean, somebody is profiting from our sense of fear and suspicion against each other. And to me, that's the real damage, because, like, this conversation, you know, once you peel back just even a tiny sliver of a layer, you and I are like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and that's. And we're. I find that pretty well everywhere. I believe that people are intrinsically good. We hear about the bad ones all the time, because I don't even think it's called news anymore. I think it's like, here's all the awful crap that's happening in the world. And I think, you know, we're in such an attitude of fear and suspicion and isolation that other people are starting to become terrifying to us. And that's just like, you look at the hierarchy of needs. Like, we need people and, and to walk around thinking that other people are evil, you know? Ah, it's, it's. I went off on a rant. I'm sorry.

[21:49] DAVE BOWN: That's okay. That's okay. But I think so there's, when you were talking, I had two thoughts jumped into my mind. Recent events. Number one is, I don't know if you've been watching the January 6 hearings.

[22:04] NICOLE POOL: Not yet, no. I don't really watch tv.

[22:07] DAVE BOWN: Yeah. You know, what? You're probably better off not watching it. But yesterday I was watching, there was an african american woman from Georgia who was head of the vote counting in one of the counties, I guess. And it was just so sad that back in the, back after the election, that just Trump went out and just went on radio, television interviews and trashed the woman and her family and called her deceitful and a liar and someone who was trying to rig an election. Well, all that came out in the past few days, and all of it was untrue. So I see, like, how somebody with so much power can demonize an individual or a group of individuals, the other side of the coin. Like, I've seen far too many democrats or liberals, like, just trash our police, who I have a lot of respect for, and a lot of them are my friends. Decent people can come to the conclusion that, yes, there are some bad police. Police. But, you know, like you were saying, I believe people are intrinsically good. And sometimes when I watch television, I only hear about the bad police. It's like if the bad police, jack ratings, good police, destroy ratings. That's the feeling. You know, I, and so I view it from both sides. I try to view everything from both sides, even though I be strongly on one issue. Just the demonization of large groups, of people, it's just, it's happening on an all too frequent basis and it just needs to stop. Like, when can we just start looking at people as individuals and stop damning their group? You know, that's what I'm concerned about.

[23:59] NICOLE POOL: What's it, what'd you say?

[24:01] DAVE BOWN: That's my big concern is that we're looking at people, we're looking at groups and saying the group is either good or bad. I'm like, no, no, no, break the group down to individuals. Test. Don't use it for police or teachers or firefighters or whoever. Like, you know, there's good and bad in every, every occupation, right? Let's not torn further. Everybody in a group, just because you have a couple of examples of people that aren't good in that group, that's, I guess that's what I'm saying.

[24:28] NICOLE POOL: Yeah, I really agree with you. I mean, as far as my camp, you know, my liberal child stealing whatever it is we're supposed to be, ruin of nation group. I've tuned out a lot of it, too, because cancel culture. That turned me off. It feels like, it felt like a really great way for people to vent their anger and blame other people. That's not what I'm about. I have a lot of dialogue with a cousin who is a fervent Trump supporter. And we agree on more things than we disagree. And one of the things that we agree on is that we're being manipulated to really dislike each other. And, you know, no, I'm not going to get into a screaming match with her, but I've gotten. I have screamed at my computer, you know, I've gotten so hot under the color collar, and, you know, how dare they blah. And I'm. What I notice in myself is it feels really good to be right or to feel like I'm right, you know, especially after a time of such chaos and uncertainty, to feel like, yes, I am morally right about this issue feels really good. And it's so seldom that you can feel really good about things. How dare anybody try to knock me off of that opinion. And for me, I'm recognizing that it fires up my oppositional defiance, which feels great for, like, half a second, but all it does is feed the serotonin monkey. It doesn't do anything for my soul. It doesn't do anything for me to be able to relate to other humans. You know, it's like, I can't believe that so and so did bleh, you know, how dare they? They're evil. You know, that feels good. But if you multiply that by the ga bajillions of people in this country, maybe that's not such a great thing.

[26:49] DAVE BOWN: No, I totally agree with you.

[26:52] NICOLE POOL: I mean, as far as, like, I do have a lot of friends here who are from non majority cultures. And by majority culture, I mean the white culture, who. Who have very valid, uh, uh, grievances and suffering of. Of what they have endured and continue to endure. Um, as far as policing goes, there are some great cops out there, great humans, who are there to serve. And, like, anywhere, there are also some people who are addicted to power, who have their own reckonings to deal with. And a lot of times, those people, especially around these parts, they're the ones who are calling the shots. They're the ones who are creating the culture of the environment, of the department, etcetera. And that has been terribly unfortunate. Um, I do think that there needs to be some kind of oversight, if not reform, but at least some kind of oversight. Like, there. There was a radio lab episode, I think, about how the police system was founded in the US, and that there's, like, there's actually no constitutional anything. It's just like, oh, yeah, you're protecting and serving, but nowhere is it defined what that actually means. Like, there. It was really interesting. Like, from what I understand, policing was evolved from the Texas Rangers, which has kind of a dubious history. I don't know it. All I know is that I can't. I don't have the ability to change it. And I know that there's. That it's much more complex for me to be able to fully understand. I'm also not going to discount other people's experiences just because I haven't had them. I don't know what it's like to be terrified at a traffic stop, you know, but a lot of my friends do, so I don't know how I got off on that.

[29:21] DAVE BOWN: You got off of that because I. Because I threw it into the conversation. That's it.

[29:25] NICOLE POOL: Okay. Okay. Thank you. I have also had Covid for the last nine days or so.

[29:32] DAVE BOWN: Oh, no.

[29:33] NICOLE POOL: And so my brain is still a little bit liquid.

[29:36] DAVE BOWN: I've been there, so I know exactly.

[29:39] NICOLE POOL: Oh, man. When did you have it?

[29:41] DAVE BOWN: I had it about two months ago.

[29:44] NICOLE POOL: How was it for you?

[29:45] DAVE BOWN: I had one really, really bad night where I was really scared. My temperature went up to about 103.

[29:51] NICOLE POOL: Oh, my gosh.

[29:52] DAVE BOWN: The doctor was like, if you go. If it gets to 104, you could have to go to the hospital. Thank God. The next day, it broke. And then very quickly after that, I got rapidly better. So I was like, from beginning to end, it lasted a week, and after a week, I felt. I wouldn't say 100%, but I felt 95%.

[30:10] NICOLE POOL: Oh, thank you. Thank God.

[30:12] DAVE BOWN: How are you doing now?

[30:14] NICOLE POOL: I'm still puny, you know, like, I sent out a fundraising email yesterday, and I got so excited that I had actually completed it that my heart rate went up. And I came up the stairs, and I fell up the stairs, and I was like, okay, so maybe. Maybe you still need a little more rest there, bunny. So I. It feels so good to feel even marginally better that I think I'm probably trying to hit it too hard. So my ability to kind of regulate, or. Yeah, to regulate is probably a little hampered right now. But all things considered, it was okay. I'm still here to tell the deal.

[31:04] DAVE BOWN: Good luck with your health. I hope you continue to get better.

[31:07] NICOLE POOL: I appreciate that. I've just. I've just talked a whole lot, and. And forgive me, that's. That's also a byproduct of this. I just get a little bit rambly.

[31:17] DAVE BOWN: Um, no, I like listening to you. I think we learn more when we listen than when we talk, which is.

[31:23] NICOLE POOL: Why I would like to stop talking. I don't know. First thing that comes to your mind. Talk to me about that.

[31:35] DAVE BOWN: In reference to what you just said.

[31:36] NICOLE POOL: I don't care. Anything. Sky is open. What? What have you been burning to have a conversation about?

[31:43] DAVE BOWN: Oh, wow. That's a really good question. Um, well, one of the things in your. In your introduction, I wanted to ask you about, um, you. In your first sentence, you said you're a visual and performing artist. So I. If you. I'd like you to tell me a little bit about that. And then. Then you mentioned that you engage your community in concepts of place and belonging. I didn't know exactly what that meant. I wanted you to maybe take that a little bit and explain that to me, if you could.

[32:11] NICOLE POOL: Okay, I will. Thank you for being curious. I do feel like I'm dominating the conversation.

[32:18] DAVE BOWN: Well, that's okay, then. I'll dominate it after you, though.

[32:21] NICOLE POOL: Rock on. Okay, great. Okay. So I've been a performing artist for a very long time. My dad was a visual artist, and he was kind of a crappy teacher to me. Like, he kicked me out of his class, painting class when I was six, because I focused on the details instead of the masses made an example of me. I'm all crying and stuff. He was very hard in that way. So I went to performing. I was just naturally drawn to trying to communicate in words that weren't my own, you know, trying to find some kind of a connection. And having a script was. I loved it, so. So I did that. Graduated from Ou with a degree in theater. I moved directly to New York City when I was 25 and hit the ground running there and enjoyed a career, was traveling internationally and performing internationally. And I came back to Oklahoma City. Relationship exploded, you know, gave up the apartment in Paris, gave up the apartment in New York, and I thought, I'm going back home. My mom needs me. I'm gonna be back home. So I got back here, and there wasn't really much of a performing arts scene at all. There are some. There are some fine companies here, but I wasn't interested in the type of work they were doing, so I was traveling to perform, and then the pandemic hit, and I was in Geneva, Switzerland, in March 2020, and got back here, started isolating, and then everything shut down, and I missed connecting with people. That's really my. That's been my church in a lot of ways. You know, when I can perform and exhibit stories or express myself in some way, that. The way that I put it is when I'm on stage and the audience is in the audience. It's like that construct allows the little God in me to speak to the little God and everybody else conversation. But it's a more metaphoric, symbolic conversation that kind of transcends details. And that's where I got my sense of human connection from, because. Because of my past, direct intimacy and friendships always felt a little too scary. Okay, so then it's the pandemic, and I'm not able to do that. And there's a park right next to my house. And I was walking around the park and just noticing that there were so many people walking around and looking down at the sidewalk and frowning, you know, as everybody's trying to process, where are we? And I thought, man, I wish I could uplift them somehow. I wish I could leave a little message. And so I got some chalk, and I started leaving little messages for people, and then those messages kind of started turning into drawings for people. And then I started asking my neighbors if they stopped me to say they liked what I was doing. Hey, if you could say something encouraging to your neighbors, what would it be? And then I'd write that down with, you know, with their names and stuff, and that turned into this beautiful, strange, gorgeous collaboration with my community. I'd go out at night and draw things, and then the next day, people would show up, and they'd follow my Instagram. And I. I got to know people's names and their dogs and their kids, and there was a hunger for just delightful disruption. So in that way, I became a visual artist. I liked that it was temporary because nobody could really. It wouldn't last long enough to be judged. Yeah. So that's.

[36:29] DAVE BOWN: That's really interesting that you took, like, the negative of COVID and tried to turn it into something good and positive and reaching out and uplifting to people. So that's. That's. I find that remarkable. We do have something in common in that we're both involved in the arts. I'm a general manager of an entertainment company, believe it or not.

[36:52] NICOLE POOL: How cool.

[36:53] DAVE BOWN: Yeah. So most of it is disc jockeys, but we also deal with bands. And so that's been my life since 1993. And Covid was just a very profound change, because I'm not somebody that does really well by email or text. I'm much more of an in person or what we're doing now. This is so much more, you know, direct and, like, text. And email has a certain. I don't know, it makes us distant. A lot of times, words are misread or mistyped, and, you know, when you're dealing with something like. Like, right now. I can see. I can see your body language. I can see how you're reacting to me, but I can't see that when I'm sending an email or text. And when our office closed for Covid, I just. I lost a lot of who I was because I was like, I love being at work every day and dealing with my customers and dealing with my co workers and all that in an instant went away. It was like one day, literally, we were like, oh, this is going to blow over in a week or two. And then the next day, I'm closing the office and we're still not really open to full. Like, my job transferred to me working at home, and I, you know, a lot of people liked it. I don't. I like, I need to interact with people, and I need to see their faces and I need to hear their voices on the phone and. Or through Skype or, you know, this. This program or whatever, but, yeah, so that's been. It's just been a lot of change in an awful short period of time. And, you know, I'm still struggling with it, but I'm. I'm still trying every day. And it seems like we're getting a little better or maybe. Maybe the country is breaking up with COVID a little bit and maybe they're the. Maybe we're just getting a little more. People just. I think maybe just fed up with it and willing to take more risk. I know I am. I've kind of had it. I've had four vaccinations. I'm, you know, I don't. I don't really know what else I can do, but I have to be out there and I have to be in the public or I'll just die. Like, my personality, like, who I am, it will just die. And I'd like to. I like to think we're treading in the right direction in that area, but it's just interesting that you and I have have. That we have the arts. We both have an appreciation of the arts together. So that's. That's interesting and unique. So.

[39:19] NICOLE POOL: Well, I. That helps me understand a lot also, like, of the musicians that I've worked with and performers, all of us have talked about, you know, I forgot who the hell I was. Our art form, our lives have been about that dialogue, that interchange with other people. And if we're just sitting there, what the hell are we? I really, really respond to that. Well, let me ask you then. What did you think you were going to be when you grew up? And what was the moment when you fell into your current job?

[40:04] DAVE BOWN: That's a great question. So growing up, I always wanted to be involved in television. Not, not in front of the camera, behind it. I wanted to be an editor, a cameraman, someone behind the scenes. Hollywood always fascinated me. And the first time I ever got on a plane, I went to Los Angeles. I was just fascinated by the culture. I loved the people. It's funny because Los Angeles got a bad, you know, a lot of people look at them as, I don't know, like, fake, weird, phony, because they're nothing. I often hear people say, oh, they're not your real friend. They only want something from you. And yet I go out there and I love them. Like, they're so open, they're so friendly. And if someone wants to say, that's a fake friendliness, I don't know. I feel comfortable out there. I just feel when I go out there, my wife always says to me, she goes, every time we come out here, it seems like, you know, every street corner to turn on, you know, you know the town like the back of your hand.

[41:03] NICOLE POOL: Right.

[41:04] DAVE BOWN: It's kind of weird. I feel very comfortable out there. So I pursued that for a long time. But then I realized I had, I, if I really wanted to have a career in that, I was going to have to move to a very small town, somewhere very far from my house, because that's generally where everyone starts in that business. You know, they don't start in New York or Philly or Boston or DC. They start in the rural area of Ohio or they start somewhere in Kentucky. And, and I just really wasn't willing to do that. And I didn't realize that until I became an adult. And then my friend was running this business, and he wanted someone with some arts experience and a degree in communications. And it was just a natural job. From day one when he hired me, I just felt like I found home. And I've been there for 2029 years.

[41:56] NICOLE POOL: Rock on. What do you play?

[42:00] DAVE BOWN: I don't play anything. I manage people who can play. I don't. Every single one of my close friends are all fantastic musicians. And so I'm like the frustrated musician of the group, but I guess I combine more of my business skills. Yeah, they have more that the hands on music production aspect, so we're like, great fit that way. We're like a perfect fit that way. And I envy them for their ability to create music, and they envy me for the way I can run the office and attract business. So it's like. It's like a perfect marriage between the two different camps.

[42:41] NICOLE POOL: Okay. I can usually smell a musician, and I don't mean that, you know, no disrespect to musicians, but there is a certain je ne sais quoi that musicians have that I can usually pick out. You strike me as one. So you. Whatever art form you're doing, it, you got the waft about you.

[43:05] DAVE BOWN: It doesn't surprise me that you're saying that, because I spend so much time with musicians, like, and I know how they act, and of course, they don't act as a group, but I'm saying, I spent so much time with people.

[43:15] NICOLE POOL: That I'm.

[43:19] DAVE BOWN: A different animal. They are a different animal. I can never joke. Yeah, but you're right about. Drummers are different. They kind of. They're kind of like the kicker in the NFL. I don't know if you know that reference, but kickers and football are just. They're totally different animals than half a bubble off. Yeah, they are. But they need to be. I think that's a unique position. And.

[43:40] NICOLE POOL: No, I mean, I say. I say that with love.

[43:42] DAVE BOWN: Yeah, of course.

[43:43] NICOLE POOL: Of course. We all know what you're saying.

[43:45] DAVE BOWN: I know what you're saying. I know the reference.

[43:47] NICOLE POOL: Well, I just saw that we have less than ten minutes left. I mean, this is awesome. You know, I would love to tailgate and continue this.

[43:59] DAVE BOWN: Well, I don't know. I don't know how that works, but if we could possibly exchange personal information, I would very much like to.

[44:07] NICOLE POOL: Yeah, that'd be fun.

[44:10] DAVE BOWN: Or phone pals or whatever the term is these days. I would love that. Can I ask a quick question? So, Nicole, you sort of talked about the spiritual experience that you have when you're performing. And David sounded to me like you have felt very connected to your faith in different ways throughout your life. Can you kind of both talk about, like, what your spirituality looks like, whether it's in an organized religious context or in a different context? Nicole, do you want to go first? Do you want me to go first?

[44:52] NICOLE POOL: I'm still formulating mine. Go ahead, Dave.

[44:55] DAVE BOWN: Okay.

[44:55] NICOLE POOL: Thank you.

[44:57] DAVE BOWN: I'm devoutly christian, but I've had numerous issues with my Catholicism, so this is kind of the way I explain it to people. I believe my faith perfect. I believe the vehicle that gets me to my faith. In other words, my Catholicism is deeply flawed. So if. I don't know if that makes sense, but, like, are you familiar with the wizard of Oz?

[45:24] NICOLE POOL: Yep.

[45:25] DAVE BOWN: Okay. So they come out of the woods, and they're in the high grass, and they see Oz in the distance, and they're just so, like, taken by it. They see this sparkling, beautiful emerald city that's just perfect. And yet each one of them is imperfect. One is cowardly, and one lacks a heart, and one lacks a brain, and, you know, one lacks a family. And, I mean, it's like. But it was this group of imperfect people going towards this perfect place. So the perfect place is my faith. The imperfection of the people is my Catholicism. And that's kind of the way I explain it. And it's a struggle, but I struggle with my Catholicism all the time. I never struggle with my faith.

[46:15] NICOLE POOL: What a beautiful way of putting it.

[46:18] DAVE BOWN: Thank you.

[46:19] NICOLE POOL: How beautiful. Yeah, a lot of that resonates with me, Dave. I was not raised really with any one religion. Some of my trauma happened in a baptist overnight camp, so. And when my. You know, this may be for another conversation, but when my half sister died of AIDS in 93, my mother was.

[46:47] DAVE BOWN: I'm so sorry to hear that.

[46:48] NICOLE POOL: Thank you. She was. She began as my brother and had a sex change and became my sister and then died of AIDS. And my mother was picketed by fundamentalists, you know, scourge of God, and, you know, a lot of very derogatory things on signs as my mom was trying to care for my sister in Oklahoma City. So my. I have a bit of a bitter taste when it comes to organized religions that are based on power. It just seems like an opportunity for misuse and for vanity projects. And I feel like that's very far away from the ideal that Oz, as you put it, for me, my spirituality comes in relations with others. It really is communion for me. When I'm talking with someone or relating to someone or especially with the artists that I work with, it's like we're all chasing the same elusive, beautiful stranger, and we can never quite find them. But if we're following that path together, that's my church, because for just a moment, we're all trying to find something that's a little bit outside of or beyond or larger or more sparkly than the mundanity of our day to day lives. And those moments of communion and of being numinous, you know, witnessing numinous moments, really shining moments with other humans. Yeah, we still have tails. So of course we're gonna be imperfect, but we recognize the divine in whatever way you want to call that. When we see it, we recognize when moments are special, when there's possibility in the world, and those are the moments that I live for, and those are what I try to engender and create space for. As an artist, I really like the.

[49:05] DAVE BOWN: Way you put that. It's very interesting. It's a different taste. It's good. It's good that I'm hearing a different take on faith.

[49:12] NICOLE POOL: Well, there's a. There's a. I think there's a crossover there, you know?

[49:17] DAVE BOWN: Absolutely.

[49:18] NICOLE POOL: Yeah. Can we. Can we believe in magic, for lack of a better term? Can we believe that there's a reality outside of the reality that we're living in that is somehow more full of energy or light or connection or something than the crap that we usually worry about in our day to day?

[49:44] DAVE BOWN: Yeah, right, right.

[49:45] NICOLE POOL: And finding paths to that, I think that's part of the human journey.

[49:50] DAVE BOWN: Very well said. Is there anything else either of you would like to share?

[49:59] NICOLE POOL: Oh, like everything. Like, you know, I just want to continue this.

[50:06] DAVE BOWN: Yeah. Yeah. I feel the same way. I love conversations that get into a little more deeper things, things you don't have a chance to talk about every day with people you don't get the chance to talk about them. So I'm just really appreciative of this. And I hope, Nicole, this would continue with. Between me and you. Yes, I would really like that.

[50:25] NICOLE POOL: I do have one question off the top of your head. If you could be any kind of animal, what would you be?

[50:33] DAVE BOWN: Wow. I guess. I guess like a cheetah.

[50:38] NICOLE POOL: Nice.

[50:39] DAVE BOWN: Because they can run and they can catch anything, and they can also run away from anything.

[50:44] NICOLE POOL: Nice. I like it.

[50:45] DAVE BOWN: How about yourself?

[50:47] NICOLE POOL: Dolphin?

[50:48] DAVE BOWN: Oh, that's a good one.

[50:51] NICOLE POOL: I mean, just to be able to go, you know, on top of the water, like, yeah, this is great. What now, Julia?

[51:09] DAVE BOWN: Well, I just want to thank you both. So you were.