Nicole Schiff and Jazmin Vasquez

[00:01] NICOLE SCHIFF: My name is Nicole Schiff. I'm 34 years old. Today is January 30, 2023. We're in El Paso, Texas. The name of my interview partner is Jasmine Vasquez, and we are colleagues and friends.

[00:14] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Hi. My name is Jasmine Vasquez. I am 33 years old. Today's date is January 30, 2023. We are in El Paso, Texas. The name of my interview partner is Nicole Schiff, and she is my colleague and friend.

[00:28] NICOLE SCHIFF: So, Jasmine, today we decided to come in and talk about the myths and misperceptions, misconceptions of human trafficking. So I'll just start by asking you, what do you hear most often as, like, your favorite go to myth that you like to debunk?

[00:46] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Well, there are so many, unfortunately. But I think the one that has come up a lot recently is that men do not get trafficked. I think it's human trafficking is predominantly viewed as a women's issue, and it really is not. This encompasses everyone, I think. And you and I have talked about how it reaches everyone of any socioeconomic status. It does not see race, cultural background. Anyone who has a vulnerability can fall victim to traffickers. So I think that's one of the ones that comes up a lot, especially, I think, in our work with youth. I think a lot of times, young men get left out of that conversation, and we are seeing, again, a lot more young men stepping forward. Right. And telling their story, which is great. But at the same time, we know that a lot of people have that misconception that this doesn't happen to men or it doesn't happen to young men.

[01:56] NICOLE SCHIFF: That's definitely the one that comes to my mind first, too, is that one especially, like you mentioned, the youth, like, the younger men, I think previously. It's because I feel like, from our experience, society made it so men didn't want to come forward or boys didn't want to come forward and talk about it, but it's becoming more open. And then I think, at least, like, from my work and experience lately, I also have noticed the cases around sextortion have been more related to youth males.

[02:24] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Yeah.

[02:25] NICOLE SCHIFF: And then, you know, like, outcries being made around that. And the youth boys either, like, not knowing how to bring it up or ending up, obviously, like, in youth suicide. So I feel like it's really important that people realize it's not just a female crime.

[02:39] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I think you're right. Like, there is a lot more of, like, that self disclosure now that I think we're seeing, I think, in our community. But I think as a whole, I think there's often a lot of shame, a lot more shame, I think, with men and coming forward. Right. And disclosing what's happening to them. But I wanted to ask you too. So what's one of the myths that you hear more often?

[03:06] NICOLE SCHIFF: So next, besides the one you mentioned first, would probably for me be that sex trafficking is the only form of trafficking. I feel like a lot of people assume that. And so obviously we know. Cause we do the work that there's labor trafficking, sex trafficking combined, and that we do see not equal numbers of those two, but that there definitely is, like, two specific types of trafficking. And then it's even broken down more because of there being youth sex trafficking and adult sex trafficking and then labor trafficking of youth and adults. So I feel like people sometimes might forget about that side of trafficking, that it is labor and sex. And a good example, I guess, would be like massage parlors, where it can be both. It can be labor and sex trafficking occurring. And so I think as we continue to educate people to just, like, even me sometimes, like, it's so easy to talk about sex trafficking. Cause it's more common. It's the more like, I guess you could say graphic one that people want. It's the juicier one that people want to hear about.

[04:07] JASMINE VASQUEZ: It's more sensationalized.

[04:08] NICOLE SCHIFF: Yeah. And it's what the media wants to pick up. But I think just being mindful of not forgetting that, like, labor trafficking is still a very huge part of human trafficking. And that especially, I feel like in our region, it can be actually more common because of, like, you know, talking about the agricultural work and in, like, I even think of, like, landscaping jobs and how people are construction. Like, a lot of that's done down here in the south. And so people, like, just have to be, like, mindful of being taken advantage of.

[04:37] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I would agree that that's. That's one of the myths I hear a lot as well. And I think we live in such a unique community. Right. Like, we are on the border. Ciudad Juarez is right next door. And I think we've kind of been built on this different kind of labor community where you do have a lot of people who come here to work in agriculture, in landscaping, in construction. Right. Which are all of these different types of jobs where we have seen, you know, labor trafficking, unfortunately. But I think you're right. It goes underreported so much here, I think because of how jobs tend to market themselves here and how people just have, again, this different sense of community of, like, you can contact this cousin or you can contact so and so. Right. And very family oriented. But even then, unfortunately. Right. It's who, you know, as we've talked about in trafficking. Right. It's. It's who knows you and who gets to this point where they feel like they can exploit those vulnerabilities and so. Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's one that definitely happens in our community, but unfortunately, it doesn't get as reported as sex trafficking does.

[05:49] NICOLE SCHIFF: And I think with that one, like, the language barrier sometimes in terms of people understanding their rights, because if they are coming over from, like, Mexico or maybe their primary spanish speaking and they don't necessarily, like, they didn't read up, you know, on, I mean, who really reads up on, like, their labor rights but, like, not knowing what your rights are in the United States in terms of what your YouTube afforded for work and for, you know, pay and all of that. So, like, they do, they get taken advantage of because they think, like you said, like, it's a neighbor or a friend or someone's cousin and same, I think of, like, restaurants, like the mom and pop, the, you know, family owned restaurants, and, like, people can just kind of, like, fall into it and not know what's actually, like, happening.

[06:30] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Yeah, I think that's a, that's a big part of it is, you know, people not knowing their labor rights. And it's a very complex thing, I think, even for people who do office jobs and, like, you know, are in any kind of gainful employment, who actually knows what their labor rights are. Right.

[06:50] NICOLE SCHIFF: What are we entitled to?

[06:51] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Exactly. And so if you have someone who is coming in from either another part of the country or from a foreign country, right. And has a visa, has that permission to work here, even then, it becomes very complex to keep up with what is legal and what isn't. And I think a lot of people fall trapped to that, of just kind of following whatever their employer is telling them and taking that as, like, this is how things are. This is how things work. I think you and I have heard that from some survivors, even from the massage parlors, of that kind of same mentality of, like I was just told this is how things worked here and not really understanding, like, all the nuances of it.

[07:29] NICOLE SCHIFF: I was that you said the massage parlor. But I also was thinking of the cases we've talked about from the strip clubs wherever. Oh, the manager told me, like, I have to leave my license there, that, you know, the license they're required to get. And so they can't look for employment elsewhere. Like, that's, you know, again, like, just going off of what you're being told and not, like, necessarily knowing what you're entitled to. And we found so many inaccuracies in, like, what? You know, those. I say women specifically because typically in strip clubs, it's females that we're working with, but, you know, they. They're just told something or, oh, it's in your contract, and they. They just assume they have to abide, and, you know, they don't know any better. I mean, how would you.

[08:04] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Right.

[08:05] NICOLE SCHIFF: Well, so we covered number one. And number two.

[08:08] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Yes.

[08:08] NICOLE SCHIFF: I'm gonna ask you now. What do you think the number three most common myth that you hear is?

[08:15] JASMINE VASQUEZ: I don't know if this is one of the most common ones, but I know it's one that I think the more we've done this work, the more we've come across it, and that's that everyone who has been trafficked or in a trafficking situation or exploited sees themselves as a victim, and that is just not true. And I think that we come across that a lot more often than we realize. Right. Of people just them not even realizing that what is happening to them, that that situation that they're in is trafficking, whether it be sex trafficking or labor trafficking. Both alike. Right. There's a lot, I think, of people who, unfortunately, end up in these situations, and they feel like they're stuck in it because they feel like they made these choices on their own, which we know that that's not how it works.

[09:09] NICOLE SCHIFF: Yeah, absolutely.

[09:10] JASMINE VASQUEZ: I don't know if that's the one you were thinking of.

[09:12] NICOLE SCHIFF: I had a different one in mind, but I'm glad that we didn't have all the same. But to speak to that one, that's definitely. I think that's one of the hardest ones, is people assume, well, why didn't they reach out? Why didn't they ask for help? Why did they stay in the situation? And it's just like, well, they didn't even know they were being victimized or they didn't know that. That's like. Like you said, either shame or blame. They thought, like, they got themselves into the situation. They need to figure a way out. Obviously, I was just recently, like, working with a client who said, like, I just felt, like, so guilty. I felt like there was no hope. I felt like there wasn't anybody that was gonna help me because they feel trapped, you know? And they don't know necessarily that this is a crime. Like, what's happening to them and that there is, like, a way out and that there's people like that. That's what we do. You know what I mean? In terms of helping. So I think for sure. And we've also talked about youth who are with older individuals and thinking they're not victimized because to them it's a relationship. So of course you're not going to turn somebody in when you think you're in a loving relationship. And then from the outside you're like, no, that's not what that is. Yeah.

[10:19] JASMINE VASQUEZ: I've even heard from some of our youth that we've worked with how it's almost been like this empowering thing. Right. Because it makes it feel like they are making these decisions and these choices. So that can be get very complicated when you're trying to help a survivor out who might be in that mentality still of, like, no. You know, like, I made these decisions. I made these choices. Right. And, like, kind of leading or feel like they're leading that life by choice when anyone outside. Right. Especially someone who does this type of work can see, like, some of that manipulation that has happened, some of that grooming that's taken place that makes this person feel like, yeah, you were the one making, you know, calling the shots, so to speak, but the reality is very different.

[11:07] NICOLE SCHIFF: Yeah. And I think, I'm curious what you think about in that sense. I feel like sometimes that's why people choose to go back into the life, like, as we say, because they felt like that, like, either relationship or attachment. And so, like, sometimes coming out of it is even harder than, like, you know, being in the situation because maybe they were still getting needs met and now they're having to, like, come out of the situation and find a new way, a healthier way, obviously, to get their needs met. And sometimes it's just easy, like, to go. Fall back in, you know, into the. Just as it is with, like, substance abuse, for example. Like, it's just easy to go back. And so when to them, it's like a connection or like a loving relationship, I feel like it's so much easier to just fall back into it, especially if the person is still accessible to them or, like, you know, coming at them or bothering them. Like, I just feel like that's what makes it even easier when they see it in some ways as, like, a bond.

[12:00] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Yeah, definitely. And I think in a lot of what we've seen, too, is that, like, there is that bond, right. And no matter how bad the abuse gets, they still feel like this is a loving relationship to them, because maybe that's. That's their definition of love. That's what they've had. That's what they've been exposed to.

[12:18] NICOLE SCHIFF: That's all they've known.

[12:19] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Exactly. Yeah. And then. Yeah. Just kind of, like, speaking about, like, how people do. Right. End up going back to these situations. I know that I've heard several of our survivors kind of speak out about, like, how they're struggling, right, at, like, a fast food restaurant making minimum wage, and they will flat out tell us, like, you know what? I was making more money. Right. And I had all of my needs met when I was running with these people or running with this pimp, whoever that might be. And it's just really hard. Yeah. For them to even, I think, feel like they could have a life outside of that, especially if they've been in it so long. Right. And it becomes. Yeah. Like, this internal battle that I can't even imagine of, like, wanting to have a life outside of that, but also knowing. Right. Like, you can have these needs met regardless of what abuse you're living through. Like, you can still have some sort of level of comfort in a way.

[13:15] NICOLE SCHIFF: Yeah.

[13:15] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Because it's what's familiar.

[13:17] NICOLE SCHIFF: It's, in a way, easier, even though the abuse side is not easy to handle, but, like, the money making of it, that type of thing is, like, it's just easier. You know what I mean? It's just. It's. Yeah. Instead of, like, having to put up with, like you said, a fast food restaurant, I think I know you. You flipped it back to me a minute ago with the myths or misconceptions. I think another, like, top one that I hear, not that I hear people actually actively say, but that it comes across is the confusion between trafficking and smuggling.

[13:45] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Oh, yes.

[13:46] NICOLE SCHIFF: I. Because we're at the border, I feel like, especially for me, you know, obviously, that I'm from New York, so my family in New York, like, sees it a very different way than we see it here. You know, they see it from the news perspective, like CNN or something like that. And so I think just being mindful of, like, the difference between the two crimes and people assuming that we're so much busier now because of the immigration issue at the border, but if they realized, like, the difference between the two crimes, they would realize, you know, that the border actually doesn't have that much impact on the work that we're doing. And I try to tell people a lot, like, you know, our cases are actually majority us citizens being trafficked by us citizens, and it has no impact on where they've come from or who their trafficker is in terms of, you know, us being so close to Mexico. And so I guess for me, that's like a big one because I feel like it's misinformation or, like, you know, a lack of, like, education around this topic, and it can create a lot of confusion.

[14:47] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Yeah.

[14:48] NICOLE SCHIFF: And people assuming that, you know, okay, a us citizen is going to be kidnapped and taken over to Mexico and that that's trafficking or vice versa, that they're brought from Mexico and they're, they're kidnapped against their will and they're, they're brought here to be trafficked. And, and it's not that I don't want to laugh, but, like, sometimes I really do laugh because it's like, it's just so far from, like, what we're actually doing and seeing.

[15:10] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think, like, you know, that that can happen, right? Like, those scenarios definitely have and can happen. But I think what you're saying is that the majority of what we see is just very different from that. And I can say for sure that even in our community, right, people here have those same misconceptions. As someone who doesn't live here or might not know what El Paso looks like, there is definitely still people here who will approach us and question us. Exactly what you said. Are you seeing more cases? We have all these people that are being smuggled and the importance of making that distinction even within our community because there are people here who still have that confusion. I think it goes back a little bit to maybe in part that sensationalization of trafficking and what it looks like. But I think that's why for us, it's been so crucial to, like, go out to the schools and talk to the youth and talk to, like, all of our community partners. Right. And, like, just have these conversations about what trafficking is and what it looks like because we still hear it all the time.

[16:17] NICOLE SCHIFF: Right.

[16:17] JASMINE VASQUEZ: When we bring up, I think just bringing up the word human trafficking, you know, sends off all these lights in people. Yeah. In people's minds. And it. And so they'll start like, oh, so you're seeing, like, the coyotes bring people over and we have to, like, you know, stop and make that distinction of, like, well, that's smuggling. It can lead to trafficking. Absolutely. Because we're dealing with a very vulnerable population. But those two are two different crimes. Right. And even in our community, we have to be able to make that distinction because what we see most here is domestic trafficking. And it's like you said, us citizens trafficking other us citizens. And I think that's maybe in part of one of the other myths, right? Like, maybe more global myths, that trafficking just doesn't happen in the US, that that happens in other countries. It happens in Mexico. But the fact is that we exist as an agency, and so we know that this is something that happens across all types of communities. Might look a little different, but.

[17:17] NICOLE SCHIFF: Yeah, yeah, I think, like you said. Yeah, like, that's definitely just another myth is that it's not happening in the United States or that it's not happening in El Paso or that it's not happening in Texas. Like, people just. I think it's such a dark crime, and it does get so sensationalized that I think people just want to pretend like it's not happening or they don't want to learn about it.

[17:39] JASMINE VASQUEZ: They're afraid.

[17:39] NICOLE SCHIFF: Yeah, they're afraid. And I think for parents, too, like, so many parents with the misconception of smuggling and trafficking assume, like, their child has to be kidnapped for it to happen to them. And that's concerning, too, because as we know, like, the Internet side of things right now, like, your child could be sitting in the next room from you, right? And they're in their bedroom and they're talking to a stranger online and they're being trafficked. And you would assume, like, they're safe because they're in your house. And so just, you know, taking away some of that fear, like you said, like, yes, it can happen in the way of kidnapping, but that's not, like, what we commonly see, right. And so reducing a little bit of that fear of, oh, my child's gonna get kidnapped and be trafficked and bring to the realization of, like, no, it could be happening right underneath your roof, and you just don't even realize because of the way that it's transitioned to online exploitation, I think.

[18:31] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Yeah, definitely. And I think that's obviously something that has grown, right. As we begin to have more social media platforms, as we have, like, these different outlets that not just youth. Right. But adults are connecting on, too. And I would say maybe, like, in the last ten to 15 years is where we really probably saw some of that shift of, like, online exploitation happening at this rate that I don't even think, like, we can keep up with, law enforcement can keep up with. It's very jarring and scary, you know? But at the same time, it's part of that conversation that we should be having and that parents should be having of, like, hey, like, it's very likely, right? Like, it happens. And I think part of the importance of that education, too, is just knowing who to turn to, like, when it happens, if not having that fear or, you know, or not having that shame of, like, that something happened to you. And again, right, that's part of the same tactics of, like, traffickers, of making you feel guilty and making you feel like, well, you got yourself into this situation. And so I think that has to be part of that conversation, too, especially when we're talking about engaging online, because so much of the interaction there is so different than what it was when you have someone face to face talking to you. And so it's going to be, I think, just that much easier, right. For traffickers and exploiters just to exploit people from the comfort of their home and have, like, this, this connection and this view into their victim's home, into their life, everything that they're doing. But that's why I think it's so important to talk about it openly and talk about it in a way that kind of just normalizes a conversation about trafficking and exploitation that although it can be something scary, we can still have a conversation about it for sure.

[20:28] NICOLE SCHIFF: Absolutely. I was in a conversation this weekend with the author of the book we talked about, and she was saying that, too, to the audience, you know, that what happened to you doesn't define you. You know what I mean? And so allowing victims to be able to make that outcry and move on with their lives and become survivors. And for parents, especially if we're talking about youth, to not shame or blame them or we've said, don't yell at them, don't make them feel like it was their fault, because ultimately they really had no idea what they were getting themselves into, you know what I mean? And it's the predator or the trafficker that's like, it's like their job, you know what I mean? Like, that's what they're good at is making these youth agree to something that they don't know the repercussions of because they're just so young. And I think also, like you said, things have changed so much with technology. Sometimes I think it's hard for, like, older parents maybe, or like, parents of these newer generations to understand because when we were younger, we didn't have all these forms of technology, right? And the access that these youth have, like, I think my five year old nephew works his phone better than I do, right? And so, like, the access, access to these devices that, like, we didn't have those, you know, and free reign with YouTube and, you know, just all the different social media apps, the gaming platforms. And sometimes I think parents just don't even realize the capabilities of those that the youth are aware of, you know? And so predators play to that. To that advantage. And then when we had Covid, obviously youth were at home with devices, laptops, cell phones, maybe, like, on unsupervised, because they had no other choice. And so then it was, like, even more time for predators to prey on those individuals.

[22:14] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Yeah. Yeah. And I think just thinking of younger generations, right, where, like, this technology has been present all their life. Like, if we're talking about someone who's 1011 years old, who we know, right. They're also engaging in, like, online activities, whether it's gaming, YouTube, like you mentioned, or any other type of social media, they've had this their whole life, so it's very normalized. And I think even I was remembering how, like, in might have been one of the trainings we attended where they talked about how youth are very likely to find and define people that they meet online as friends. Right. It's these friendships they've created, and they feel bonded to people. And I think for anyone who grew up without that technology, again, it can be very jarring of, like, you've never met this person in real life.

[23:05] NICOLE SCHIFF: How are they your friends?

[23:06] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Yeah. You've never met them in real life. You don't. Do you even know who they say there are behind the screen? Right. But it's still this very, like, intense connection that they build. Right. Of, like. No, that's my friend. Like, I game with them online, which I'm sure that there are people who do. Right, like, and become great friends online and connect. But at the same time, we know that there are people out there. There are predators prey on that. Exactly. That knowledge of, like, we know that there's youth out there connecting with people. And again, it's like you mentioned filling those needs. Right. And it reminds me of another point, I think that was made at some other training where they talked about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right. And how us as service providers use that, right, of, like, what are their needs, but how now traffickers are of using that same concept to exploit. Exploit the vulnerabilities of the already vulnerable. And it's like filling those needs little by little till they accomplish that grooming and eventually can get them to do whatever it is they want them to do.

[24:11] NICOLE SCHIFF: They won't. Absolutely. And then going back to, like, the Internet piece, I think also one of the myths is people don't realize that, like, child pornography and images of children are considered child sexual exploitation, which is a form of human trafficking, is abuse. And that's why a lot of people assume, well, why is NCMEC, for example, involved? National center for Missing Exploit Children. Why are they involved when they work with missing children? But it's like, they also work with exploited youth. And so that is a form I just don't think people necessarily associate, like, child pornography or asking a child for images. They assume it's more commercial sex. I've had someone say it's prostitution or it's strip clubs or it's people that are stripping. And so it's like, no, all these different things that this specifically relates obviously to children, but they're all a form of sexual exploitation and potentially sex trafficking. I just think sometimes people even maybe the predators, like, don't realize the extent of, like, what they're doing. You know what I mean? They're just, like, reaching out to these youth. And I also think of, like, the stranger danger concept like that. As kids, we were taught, like, you know, don't go up to a stranger and don't talk to strangers. And how do we teach that from, like, an online perspective? Because, like you said, it's the same thing. Like, these are strangers that they're saying are friends. And if they met this person for the first time in person, they would have been taught, like, you know, don't talk to strangers.

[25:47] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Right.

[25:47] NICOLE SCHIFF: But because there's like that online, you know, I guess protection, I guess, wall or window where, you know, they're not actually seeing the person, so it's easier to communicate.

[25:56] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's definitely a big piece of it. Right. It's just like this, how youth are socialized. It's just so different. Yeah. And again, just, like, very, very jarring to see it, I think, or to hear our youth express it. Right. I think for us, immediately, it's like, oh, my gosh, you know, like, who are you talking to? Or what are you doing? And it's just so normal for them. It's how they've learned to communicate. Again, a lot of these youth were born in the era where this technology already existed, and so it's very much such an integral part of their reality. But you mentioned something else, too. I think that just kind of leads back to, like, talking about the language that is used when referring either to exploitation or referring to potential victims or, you know, where there's just, I think, a lot of misuse of the language, like you said, right. When they use something like child prostitute or child pornography, it's like child prostitution is not a thing. Like, these are people that are being victimized.

[26:57] NICOLE SCHIFF: They can't consent.

[26:58] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Exactly. And we're not just talking about very young kids, we're talking about our teenagers as well. Right. That can also be a very difficult conversation because a lot of these youth are engaging in sex and they're learning about their bodies, and it's a very natural thing. But yet we have, again, like, these exploiters, these people who take advantage of exactly that, of how these youth might be in that very vulnerable state of mind where they're learning about themselves or learning about the world and using that to their advantage.

[27:29] NICOLE SCHIFF: Yeah.

[27:30] JASMINE VASQUEZ: So it's just very complicated, I think, to say the least. Right. Like, just. It's very complex, I think, to talk about all these things.

[27:37] NICOLE SCHIFF: I think we go down a rabbit hole all the time. Like, every time we're talking about these topics because there's so many different directions you can go with this crime. But that made me think, too, of that recent statistic. There was a survey done where they asked third graders about sending a photo of themselves, an inappropriate photo. And one in eight said that it was normal for them, that they didn't think there was anything wrong with it if they were sending it to what they thought was, like, a boyfriend or girlfriend.

[28:06] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Right.

[28:06] NICOLE SCHIFF: And so that's, like, seems so scary to me, like an eight year old. And, you know, even as an adult, I don't think about, like, sending inappropriate photos. And so for an eight year old to just think nothing of it, like, I just feel like the society and as a whole has changed, but it's because they've made it, like, they've normalized it so, so much that, you know, once those images are out there, like, you can't necessarily get them back. I know. You know, Nick MC tries really hard to help, like, with online images, but I just, you know, how do we educate our children to not, I guess, be so, like, nonchalant about it, especially with online, like, strangers or people you might think are friends, but you just don't know for sure because, like, once it's out there, you can't get it back.

[28:49] JASMINE VASQUEZ: You can't get it back. Yeah. I think a lot of it comes back to just, like, how our youth are still developing. Right. And I thinking back to some of the conversations I've had with some of the youth we've worked with, a lot of it was something that, like, you know, it was like they didn't think of these consequences coming back to them. And I think that's, again, part of the conversation. Right. Because I think to them, they couldn't even fathom, right, that this would end up in the wrong hands or that whoever they were trusting with this information would then spread that and share that. And it wasn't until it happened that they have that moment of like, oh, my gosh, like, I didn't, I didn't know that that was a possibility or I didn't realize the extent to which it was going to spread that way. And so again, I think that's part of, part of the education piece. Right. Of, like, we understand, right. You're engaging in these things, but how can we make sure that if you choose to do it right, that you're doing it safely and that you think about what might be some of the consequences tied to that? Because I think for a lot of them, they don't, they've never experienced that before or know anyone who's experienced it. And so it's hard for them to think of the different ways that that can go wrong.

[30:09] NICOLE SCHIFF: Yeah.

[30:10] JASMINE VASQUEZ: And again, I don't really, that's where it's hard to talk to youth and parents about it because I think that tends to be the reaction of, like, why did you share that or why did you do this? But the reality of it is that a lot of times they just don't know. Right. And they're looking for that connection with someone and they feel like that might be the way to build that connection. And so talking about what healthy connections are, talking about what healthy relationships look like. And again, that can be very difficult, especially if you're not even getting that at home. Right. Like, those healthy connections, I think that's what we tend to see a lot of with, like, our youth that's at risk and them just not really having those outlets for, like, healthy relationships or communication. And so they turn to the Internet, you know, and again, there's always going to be someone there to respond to that, unfortunately.

[31:01] NICOLE SCHIFF: Unfortunately. Yeah. It's scary. I think technology nowadays is scary. So for me also, somebody the other day said that we teach kids about brushing their teeth, you know, at 1.52 years old, for prevention, to avoid cavities, to avoid your teeth falling out. And they said, why aren't we talking to youth now at that age about technology, about, you know, prevention in terms of, like you said, like, once it's out there, you can't get it back. Like, if you are going to engage in it. Here's what you need to know. Type situation so that you're not talking to your youth after it's already happened.

[31:39] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Yeah.

[31:39] NICOLE SCHIFF: You're talking to them and making a comfortable conversation. You know, we used to. Well, I don't know about you, at least for me. We're pretty close in age, though. We used to joke about, like, you know, oh, sex ed or we talked about the birds and the bees and, like, it was this big thing in fifth grade, and, like, everyone giggled.

[31:53] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Everyone giggled.

[31:53] NICOLE SCHIFF: But I feel like fifth grade is way too far out now. Like, you know, fifth grade, I just was talking about the statistic with third graders. Like, yeah, it's. It has to happen sooner because technology has allowed kids to grow up faster.

[32:07] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's so present in their life. Like, more so now than ever. And again, it's one of those things that it's become so normalized, like, brushing your teeth. Like, you just assume. Right? Like, you're gonna have access to these things, to these, like, online platforms, and so. Yeah, I think that's definitely a big part of the conversation, too.

[32:26] NICOLE SCHIFF: I just loved the toothbrush example.

[32:28] JASMINE VASQUEZ: No. Yeah. Like, it makes sense, right?

[32:31] NICOLE SCHIFF: When we're training parents now, we can use the toothbrush example I'll cite who gave me that awesome idea.

[32:36] JASMINE VASQUEZ: But it makes sense. Yeah. To have, like, again, like, you. You teach your kids about these other everyday things. Technology has become that. Like, you connect with it every single day.

[32:46] NICOLE SCHIFF: Yeah. And she was saying, like, it's not like you just teach your children something like that one time. Like, you have to continue to remind them, like, every night before bed or. So it's the same with, like, as they get more apps on their phone or as they get more use of technology, maybe longer periods of time, like, continuing to remind them of the. Not just a one time conversation.

[33:06] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Yeah, definitely. Well, we kind of got a little bit off track. Were there any other myths that you can think of that, like, have come up recently or that we maybe missed? I know. I know. There's a lot.

[33:19] NICOLE SCHIFF: So many. Yeah. Like, I'm like, we kind of. I feel like we covered. We always say there's, like, that top five. I feel like we got kind of almost to that point.

[33:26] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Yeah.

[33:26] NICOLE SCHIFF: I don't know if it was four or five, but I guess not off the top of my head right away, because we talked about so much. Was there any that you can think of that we missed?

[33:35] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Yeah, same. Nothing that comes to mind, but I.

[33:39] NICOLE SCHIFF: Guess we kind of covered it. Still, though, would be, like, the crime in it, like, you know, people assuming, like, it's. People are prostitutes or they're choosing to do it. And so that idea of, like, criminalizing the victim, and I do feel like that's something that's a real big misconception of, like, that person. And I know we've talked about, like, law enforcement partners, you know, being mindful of, like, not re victimizing or treating the victim as a criminal or arresting them. Like, we're really kind of against that idea because that's really just a misconception of the fact that they're not the ones that are doing something wrong.

[34:14] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's part of the bigger conversation, too, when it comes to just rights in general. I know that there has been an entire conversation about women empowerment and women in the sex industry, which. Absolutely right. But I think what we see a lot is that it's a very, very small percentage of women who choose that, who choose that as a lifestyle and who choose that as a career choice. What we see in the majority. Right. Is that people who are engaged in prostitution are not there by choice. And if they are, it's usually out of survival. And I think that's another element to that. Absolutely. Often gets left out of the conversation where it's like, well, she's choosing to be a prostitute. Right? Like, she's got, you know, she could do anything else, but the reality is so much more difficult than that. And a lot of women who do, it's out of survival or maybe even that feeling of being stuck in that situation. Right. And so I think that's another piece of the conversation. And I think survivors absolutely need to be part of that conversation, too.

[35:25] NICOLE SCHIFF: Yeah, I think that ties into, like, the legislative piece of, like, legalizing prostitution. And I, like you said, women's empowerment. Because also, I think about there might have been a time when they did initially agree, but what they agreed to isn't what actually is happening to them. And like you said, so now all of a sudden, they feel stuck because, yes, they might have agreed to a specific job that is involving prostitution or maybe being at a strip club, but then what's actually being done to them is not what they signed up for or what they thought they were gonna get. And then people just assuming, like, you chose it, you went into that profession, it's on you, or she's in it.

[36:04] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Because she likes it.

[36:05] NICOLE SCHIFF: What did you think was gonna happen? You know, and again, like, just so much shame and blame around, like, you know, that topic. And unfortunately, those survivors and even themselves questioning, like. Well, I did sign up for it, you know, like. But I just think it's society, like, educating people on, like, what's really going on.

[36:24] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Yeah, definitely. Well, I think we covered a lot in our conversation. Like you said, not everything, because I think you and I can continue to talk about this. We could be here all day. We could. Yeah. But I think we covered a lot of stuff that I think we hear a lot from the public and our community especially. I think. And we say this all the time. I think there's so much education still left to be done, but that's why we do what we do, right?

[36:55] NICOLE SCHIFF: Yeah, exactly. I think that's why educating and training has become such a big piece of our, like, role at our agency. Not just, like, I feel like when I started, at least, I don't know about you, but I thought heavily on, like, the direct service side. And now, like, I really feel like it could be 50 50, like, we're providing direct service, but we also need to be providing, like, that education piece.

[37:16] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Yeah.

[37:17] NICOLE SCHIFF: If we're gonna do any type of, like, prevention effort. Yeah. Because otherwise we're just always reacting. We're always working with the victim. But could we have prevented it if enough people knew more about the crime and the situation and how to avoid it? And I think for youth, it's especially talking with, like, anyone in their life that's, like, of an authority figure, a parent, you know, guardian. Like, how can we educate them to better support the youth in not getting involved in certain situations.

[37:45] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Yeah. Or just being there. Right. Like, being there to support it if something does happen in. And listening and just. Yeah. Being there and having a little. A little bit of that information there that makes such a huge difference. Just a little bit of, like, who do I call? Who can I report it to? Knowing your community, what resources are out there. And I think that's a big part of, like, our outreach piece, for sure.

[38:14] NICOLE SCHIFF: Yeah. And I think. Well, and this would be a whole other conversation, but I think, like, some of that would also really reduce. We've talked about this, too. I mean, reduce youth suicide. Like, you know, there's, like, an epidemic in terms of that. And, like, it's because sometimes these youth feel like they're trapped and they just. They have no other way out and they don't have someone in their life that they feel like they could go to or trust to tell them, like, the situation.

[38:38] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Yeah.

[38:38] NICOLE SCHIFF: And so especially we've seen with, like, online sextortion. Like, that's what it's leading to. Especially with boys. And so, like, we could be preventing the exploitation piece, but at the same time preventing teen suicide. And so just like some of our clients, that we could be preventing homelessness, you know, if they weren't out on the street having to survive.

[38:58] JASMINE VASQUEZ: I've mentioned this to you before, but I really do see it as a public health issue because it intersects with, like, all of these different things, with mental health, with substance abuse, with physical abuse, with housing and homelessness. Like, it's just. It is a public health issue. But, yeah, I think the conversation, again, could continue on for hours. But I think, yeah, the main thing I would want people to get out of our conversation is that just, you know, get the right information, know the facts, and get educated on this topic because it's very. It's very complex, as we've talked about.

[39:35] NICOLE SCHIFF: I always joke I'm like the Debbie Downer at all family functions because I'm trying to educate people on human trafficking and child exploitation and they don't want hear about it anymore. And I'm like, educate yourself. You have to know what's going on. So hopefully I don't get kicked out of any family functions anytime soon for over talking about trafficking, but it's just really important to us and to me. And so, yeah, I feel the same way. If anyone's gonna get anything out of it, like, please go read up on it. Ask us for some training.

[40:06] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Yes, absolutely, ask us for training. We're here anytime we're in the community, like, reach out to us, I think.

[40:12] NICOLE SCHIFF: Yeah, you're absolutely right. Well, thanks for having a conversation with me, Jasmine I appreciate it. Like I said, we could sit here all day, I'm sure, but thanks for being here with me.

[40:26] JASMINE VASQUEZ: Of course, yes, thank you as well. I can't imagine having this in depth conversation with anyone else, Nicole. So thank you again. It's.