Noelle Trent and Charles McKinney

Recorded March 5, 2020 Archived March 5, 2020 38:55 minutes
0:00 / 0:00
Id: ddb002567


Dr. Noelle Trent (39) discusses with colleague and friend Dr. Charles McKinney (52) the experience of blackness throughout their early and current lives, pursuit of academia, and their experience in the subject of History.

Subject Log / Time Code

NT shares experience of blackness in PA; shares an experience from grade school; describes a time the ku klux klan desecrated her father's house of worship; CM shares experience of transitioning from MO to Santa Barbara, CA.
CM shares racist incidents at school and church in CA; shares about mother's reaction to his being placed on a remedial track, compares this to other students whose parents may not have been as engaged in their studies.
CM shares first impression of Morehouse and being exposed to variations of blackness; shares first contact with the civil rights movement; shares parents reasoning behind choosing their home in a predominantly white neighborhood
CM shares choice to pursue history; shares the importance of local activism and exploring those not as widely known within the movement.
CM and NT shares first encounters with the Civil Rights Museum; NT and CM share workshops they've done with teachers in Shelby county to add to the narrative of civil rights contributors.


  • Noelle Trent
  • Charles McKinney

Recording Location

National Civil Rights Museum

Venue / Recording Kit

Partnership Type

Fee for Service



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00:05 My name is Doctor Noelle Trent. I am 39 years old. Today is March 5th 2020. We're in Memphis, Tennessee, and I'm here with dr. Charles McKinney my colleague friend partner in crime at Rhodes College.

00:25 I am dr. Charles McKinney. I am 52 years old. Today's date is March 5th 2020. We're in Memphis Tennessee at the national Civil Rights Museum. The name of my interview partner is dr. Noelle Trent and she is my friend colleague and together. We plot plots and schemes schemes.

00:50 So how we going to start in the beginning? All right. So where were you born? What was that like for you growing up? I remember vividly when I was born. Jesus was born August 31st 1967 in Jefferson City, Missouri. My father was working at Lincoln University an HBCU and Jefferson City and my mother believed was a science teacher at the time of my birth. And so I spent the first six years of my life in Jeff City, Missouri. And you know 026 is it was fine, right? You know, we had a dog named Mickey and you know Travis my best friend lives next door. And so yeah, it was it was it was fine. So what's been interesting and we can talk about a little later is, you know talking with my parents now about about that context write the context of living in, Missouri.

01:50 Which is essentially a Southern state right to contest a living in Missouri in the late sixties and early seventies frightened to those stories are not tumbling out which are at getting lots of seasoning to to do my own tomorrow and Story. How about you? How are you born? I was born in Boston, Massachusetts December 20th, 1980. Both of my parents were in graduate school. So I was Louis born in this kind of education actually a Harvard Hospital which is crazy. But yes, yes, it's in my blood right? I think it was interesting cuz you have two young parents who are pursuing their education and studies and in my mom was an audiologist. My dad's a minister. So he was at Andover Newton and so kind of always being around. I don't really remember Boston cuz what I was only two years old when we laughed and then I grew up in West, Chester, Pennsylvania outside of Philadelphia.

02:49 From the time I was too until I was fourteen and then we moved to Washington DC where I live before moving here to Memphis. And so those are like

02:59 Two very different experiences to experience to be a black family in a predominately white northern area. And then to move further south to the DC area where are just things are so different write the culture is different in the end. So yeah, like you those things have informed my work so I got a couple good bring someone a couple of questions. First is I'm thinking what was that like was I transition like, do you know that transition from moving from Westchester to DC to Chocolate to a chocolate City? Oh that's that was really different because Westchester is okay. So buyer dressed in his from Westchester and the painter Horace Pippin is from Westchester except for when they live there. It was like a farming Community when we first moved there and up through Elementary School. It was this weird Suburban / Royal thing. It had made the turn.

03:59 In to fully a suburb, right? So for instance, I grew up going to a Dairy Store to that was on a dairy farm to get milk and like, you know, you got your milk in glass containers and I'll be living with my dad would go to the grocery store. Cuz once it didn't taste the same until we got Swedish Fish when we went to the store so grocery store milk without but then we also didn't have 911 until I was till right before we left right? Because at the time they would have these assemblies and say if you dial 911 it'll going to Philadelphia so they would give us the stickers to put on the phone to say this is the number to the fire department and it's you know, the 7-digit number. This is the police this is the ambulance so it was a you go from that to DC which is heavily black.

04:54 Is much more urban very very different. It was just a it was a little bit of a culture shock in a little bit of an adjustment. My church environment was always black predominantly black so that wasn't different but it was your the slang culture how people do things. We're all it was a little bit of an adjustment took me about a year to fully kind of acclimate myself. And how old are you I miss 1414. So then when you move to DC did it

05:25 When you reflected back on your time in Westchester, I mean, how did you think about being black in both of those spaces? I know a lot for a lot of people moving into a black is this from the case for me moving into a black space you like? Okay. Yeah, you know I see myself in this space, but then I start thinking back to when it was not when I did not occupy black space because there's an expression for Pennsylvania right outside of Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. It's all Alabama or West Virginia depending on your take. So I mean, I think I was always aware of my black just because you know as much as I didn't want to deal with it, there was so many little instances that made me conscious that I was a black child in a white space. So in elementary school, my mom talks about there is a must been first or second grade and my friends were out sick during one of those chicken pocket epidemic that you know happened pre-vaccine, right?

06:26 And these girls told me I couldn't play with them because I was black. I didn't say anything to my mom, but she knew that something was off. And so when she finally weasel it out of me, she was livid and she had to go she went to the school and went to the guidance counselor who the black woman that said this is what happened. And so this guidance counselor to her credit was like, oh no and so she created I had these sessions with her I could talk to her about what was going on. And then she also did these things where she would take the black and brown children and kids who had like now that I realize it was kids who were poor kids who parents were incarcerated those of us who are the others of the school? She announced that she had this initiative where she's taking depending on Statue take you out to lunch and you can pick anywhere you want to go for lunch, but it was always those of us who occupied the other space were able to do that. Right? And then there was the time when the Ku Klux Klan march to my town was just is the county seat.

07:26 As in the fourth grade, they marched in the town and then they also spray-painted my dad's church with the N word that to me reminds you of your Blackness and then I've had teachers actually at teachers who my parents would have to go in and talk to the principal because I wasn't getting the grades. I was supposed to get in certain teachers because I was black or my sisters weren't getting treated. Well because we were the black family crest. I personally never felt like I wasn't aware of my blackness in that way like it was the thing that was outside. I think in DC it made me feel more comfortable with myself and say, oh, well, I have a culture like my Chinese friends had a culture was Justin like the Greek family had a culture that helped me feel a little bit more secure right? Shout out to parents and families and communities that help anchor kids like us right in in these communities that are that can be really that were real.

08:26 Write a lot of ways and not you know any shielding us from

08:33 A lot of that hostility, right? And you do need to get that you can never it's it's not like, you know, if it's a perfect field are perfect Shield, right? It's not a stuff's going to happen, right, you know because of who you are because of what you look like. So yeah, so I've got stories like that to moving from Jefferson City, Missouri, and my dad was also working on his Doctorate. So he finishes up University of Missouri and gets a job at University of California Santa Barbara, which is why I grew up in Southern California and going to California in the early 1970s, right, you know according to a liberal, California.

09:16 And you know having a lot of illiberal experiences, right? You know, so I'm always leery about people talking about, you know, Southern racism and I'm like, well, you know, I'm from California and I got stories that can back and go toe-to-toe, you know with with all kinds of folks about stories, right, you know.

09:36 Michael had a slave auction one year for a fundraiser, right? And I can't remember if that was a year before year after my church had a slave auction for a fundraiser right on the southern state of California. Right? So but I remember most vividly third grade and you know how much for a smart kid, right and so I get to school and I'm in the nature of my work changes, right, you know, so the math and English and I'm doing suddenly becomes really easy.

10:14 Pray in my mom notices that I'm not going to I'm not going this workout, right? And so this is this is how she relates the story to me. She said I came home and all of a sudden, you know, my work is sort of evaporated. I'm doing this really really easy work and she was like what's going on and she's a former schoolteacher. Right? And I was like eight, you know, if the work is just really really easy. So come to find out that my third grade teacher. I told the school counselor K this new kid this new kid Charles McKinney. I think I need to test him.

10:46 And the school psychologist like all don't worry, but I know we need to do and you put me in the remedial track because that's what you do with black kids. Right? No need to test them. So when my mom found, you know, so when my mom gets up there and you know it and starts to dig a little bit frightened finally meets up with the school psychologist. He's like, yeah good thing right, you know until I am constantly thinking about you know, what's the what's what's it look like if Charles a little McKinney are working class working class folk, right if Lew McKinney, my mom is not as a former teacher but is that you know is a part-time nurse and is not looking over my homework like at all, right, you know what that look like, so, you know, so so living in Santa Barbara right? She just threw a peppered with, you know, I can pepper people with these experience with these experiences in the mall, and I'm always so thankful that I was able to go home.

11:46 I'm at home and wish I could process process these moments right process these moments of profound alienation these moments of profound hurt right now, you know, you can't date so and so has your black right? You can't be in certain places or spaces, right, you know knowing and understanding that you got to act a very different way of with the cops than your white friends get to act right, you know also all of that, right?

12:14 So then after you so you're growing up in your grown-up and DC. Yeah, I want to say before we go further is that you know, I think what's interesting is that your parents are like a generation or so older than my parents, right? And so one of the things I say that as you were talking I realize is that some of the things my parents were able to catch for me and my sisters so that didn't happen was because of experiences that your parents had and still like this black families in the community kind of coming together to say, okay be sure you do X or watch out for this teacher or the psychologist is kind of what that's a survival mechanism. I think of middle-class black. I just that really occurred to me cuz part of the way that my parents were able to structure some things for us and to be able to say no put my kids in in the advanced classes or whatever was because of those conversations and looking back and looking back, you know, it is a kid again inside of bar.

13:14 And it don't my parents always having all these other black folks over right as you know, and it's dinner parties and they bring the kids over. I know when you're 9 it's just like, oh, it's just dinner right man. This wasn't just dinner right to go Santa Barbara Santa Barbara. I used to joke Santa Barbara like 80 black people in it, right? I mean, you know the 71 thousand people in the town and I have to be like in of every kind of McKinney's leave that percentage of black people would have probably go down like right, you know, just like literally because there were so few so few black people, right? And so so those dinners in those places and spaces that my parents and other parents and other folks were recreating those are places Sanctuary, right? You know, when I get that now is that there's a 50 year old who was also deeply invested in creating Sanctuary write for other for the black folks. So so there's so much to say

14:14 How much they're right inside of what the types of the work that are that our parents were doing both for for the community right for their friends and relatives but also for us also for also for their for their children. So you're in DC and then you make your way to Howard University ideal what kind of backwards a little bit. I wish I said that Howard was my first choice the whole time. It was not actually I really want to go to Cornell which is where my father went and but my parents were like Cornell's not giving us any money for Cornell and you got two younger sisters. So your mother works at Howard, you're going to go to Howard. It's not a bad school and you'll be fine and I was like, all right. I'll go to Howard feel like that was my other time. I think I was like, oh I'm making this sacrifice for my sisters.

15:14 It was actually a really profound transformational point for me in my life. Like I felt that I'm sure you feel the same way about Morehouse the after years of being in my educational spaces. You kind of needed that space to just I don't think you're aware of how many wounds you have from K to 12. If you're in those spaces until you come to an HBCU and you're like, oh I don't have to worry about being the only black kid in class, but I can just be me in a different way and express myself and experience Blackness on an international level. You know what I mean Hannah and a cross Regional love right different slang, you know different ways to spell names different, you know, just just all these differences that like, okay. This is what it means to be part of the diaspora.

16:13 You working for the University of California? And you know, I'm a Southern California kids. So I'm looking at UCLA and Pepperdine and you know Claremont they know the Claremont schools, you know, maybe Berkeley if my grades are decent enough and my parents might look you can go at wherever you want to go. But there's a set of schools that you just don't know anything about because you're from California and we want to show a few of them to you pray to God bless Charles a little McKinney. They took me on a black college tour. So Texas Southern Southern University Tuskegee Lincoln, Jeff City, and then I think we wound up. I think the last spot we wanted was Morehouse, LOL, right? And what was your first impression of Morehouse? Oh my God black people.

17:05 In one place. What is this? And you know it and what's so funny about it is I hit I hit the school. It was the last day of finals and the brothers were they were the brothers were happy to be going on and I was like mad is everybody this happy all the time. Now, they just finished mine isn't happiness and black and so I mean, you know, and I wasn't completely Pine Bluff and my uncle are gone the more house and you know in all of my uncles and aunts right had gone to an HBCU so I was not completely unfamiliar going down there and then listening to the director of admissions with his brother by name is Sterling Hudson, and he was like looking you come to my house you will be able to reach your highest academic potential.

18:05 All of the factors all of the things that'll be speed bumps on the way to your education. In other institutions will be removed here in the principal one of those being race. So the same thing I'm going to assume that you're on the basketball team. If you come here, right? Nobody's going to make any assumptions about your level of educational preparedness and we're prepared right to meet you where you are, right? And that's exactly what happened threading. You know, I got to reach, you know, I was able to reach my highest academic potential and I got two and I got the benefit of doing that in a context that was explicitly built for me, right? This is a, you know, black people warned and warned and add on at Morehouse or Howard or are they cheap ecu's write these are the institutions that said, you know at some point in the 1970s out now, we have to start feeling educated Negroes. The school was built for me. It was built for black men.

19:03 And so they knew what they were doing, right and so, you know to go down there and like you said to be a part of in the witness International Blackness, right? You know, Chucky Taylor's from the from the Bahamas and you know, an inn in Courtney is from Jamaica and his brother over here is from Ghana and his brother over here. These cats are from Detroit right now from Chicago. I got it reduced the house music down there. So it was it was a beautiful and challenging and thorough and in Thoroughly exhilarating thoroughly exhilarating experience pride. And so

19:47 Thinking about you know, all of these iterations of Blackness, right? This is the point where I started to think about. You know, what exactly does it mean to be black in the United States, right? What are the what are the various and Sundry iterations of that? What does that mean? You know, I know how does that and the house at and how's that question shaped or has he answered shaped regionally, right? How is it shaped according to socioeconomic status house u-shaped, you know by by by gender sexuality, right? You know, and so I started grappling with all of that stuff at Morehouse and particulars in the history class taught by my mentor. Dr. Marcellus Barksdale haydock who had gone to Duke for graduate school and which is why I went to Duke for graduate because I was basically literally follow in his footsteps. So it was at this point where I started becoming really interested in the Civil Rights Movement try taking the class with Doc and he mentions this thing called the indigenous civil rights movement of it. What is that?

20:47 Brighten, and he was like, okay everyone here knows about Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks in the march in Washington, you know, so you all have this top-down understanding of the movement or what what's going on in small towns. What's going on in Monroe North Carolina going on in the lickskillet, Tennessee, right? You know what's going on in these small places and spaces or large places and spaces. How are people organizing to get free on their own? Right, which was a concept that I'd never even thought of before right? Oh, wait right local people and changed in that also made since I was like, well, yeah, okay cuz I can see that now because you know, this is the other thing I'm starting to work through as the sort of the fluidity of What kinds of civil rights right because I also knew and understood that my parents had bought a house in Jeff City, Missouri in a white neighborhood.

21:42 Right and you know when I got the story later, right, but I knew that meant something even as a young child. I knew that this was something this was kind of this was important, right, you know, and the reason that that happened was, you know, like I came along and bears live in an apartment and my mom was like what I want a house, right? We need to buy a house because you know, we're going to have children. We want them to grow up in a black side of town in Jefferson City Mama by God. I know none of these houses, you know, I love the people here but not too fond of those structures in which folks are living. So is the other side of town Friday the other side of town. This is the white side of town and you know, restrictive covenants, right? So folks are like no I can't right now, no writing. My mom tells the story about one time. I'm having talked with my dad talked with a homeowner on the phone and they drive up and he sees my dad got out of the car and says IU McKinney that you guys all know. I'm so I can't sell my house to you.

22:42 My neighbors would never I never hear the end if I sell my house to a negro no hard feelings and state in in in sticks his hand out to shake my dad's hand. And my mother says that tells me she said that's the only time I ever told your father not to shake somebody else's hand and I said why she said because you were watching.

23:01 She was like, I don't I did not want him. I did not want your father to

23:07 Engage in this act of Civility after having been told we're not so I can't sell my house to you because you're so so how do you do with all these experiences and thinking through these different movements? What leads you to become like this phenomenal historian if I may say I mean, you know, why does history become the mechanism that you decide to work through this?

23:40 I need for so long. I think for a lot of us, right. This is personal, right? You know, I heard somebody say once said, you know all academics are some levels kind of working out their own in all working out their own lives, right, you know and regardless of what they're working out their place in the universe that working out their relationship with their parents right there working out. What's what's you know, what where do I fit? What what am I doing? And I don't know about that. But I know that's the case. I know it's a case for me, right, you know, once I started thinking about the civil rights movement in college and Doctor bar skills class. I became absolutely enthralled. I was like Wow local people engaged in changing the world, right and someone I started bumping in the folks like Fannie Lou Hamer, right what's open in the local people? Right? You know many of whom folks whose names, you know, the vast majority of Americans will never know right? But had they not done what they did we would

24:40 Be where we are. Right and so that was transformative to me because I was like for this means this means that I don't have to have you know, I don't have to have you know, in addition to Martin Luther King in addition to Malcolm X in addition to all of the names that we know right ordinary brothers and sisters.

25:01 Rights are also implicated in this movement right are also putting in this is Titanic pieces of work, right? And so it's the Confluence of those things. Right? And that's the thing that really excited me right as the opportunity to to explore the intersections of you know of of the greats right of you know of the political movers and shakers and the land in local folks right School moving and shaking and engaged in activities that you know, the national figures are responding to

25:34 Right, you know, I love telling my students that you know, Martin King doesn't go to Birmingham just because he woke up one day and decided to go to Birmingham right Fred Shuttlesworth was like, yeah, we've been doing this work for 10 years now and we need you to bring your Starpower to Birmingham and you know the story we need you to come here to help us to help facilitate the work we have already been doing right Martin. Only Martin is only on the ground floor for one movement.

26:08 Every place else he goes in his in his career. He's being brought in by local activist, right Selma Atlanta Chicago Los Angeles and New York. You didn't matter where he goes folks on the ground have been putting in work right now like Martin, we need your start Memphis. We need your star power to to come and help and help, you know and help really bring, you know, you're going to bring the notoriety. You're going to bring the cameras. You going to bring the Press you going to bring, you know all of that to bear on this movement but no one understand that this is something that we started a while ago, right? We need you to come help us with this if I was really enthralled by that. I thought that was

26:49 A really great way to to to understand change over time which is what historians and you know in the story is so much more complicated so much more nuanced so much more so much more beautiful. Right when we understand all of the people who were implicated in that change over time that we as historians are seeking to explore. So your turn. What when did you get? When did you get bitten by the Civil Rights bug? What is the funny thing? I've always loved history as a kid. I was the one who was asking the questions and I was never satisfied with how my teachers were teaching it. And then my dad I was working on his Doctorate and had been exposed to molefi Asante and this is when afrocentrism is really big and one of our church members was actually a anthropologist.

27:49 But she would come into our like our youth group at church and do these presentations on black history. So I have like six and eight years old. We're knowing to The Real McCoys renewing who Garrett a Morgan is, you know, all of us could list at least 10 objects that were done by black inventors. And so I always felt like the story was incomplete and you know, when I went to grad school my Master's was all about public history. I wasn't really picking up a specific topic area in terms of the air is but I was interested in how we make it comprehensible to the masses write the different ways that we can get that message out because the academic conversation is great. But where people are responding to our these more public met mechanisms, like 96% of people view museums as authority figures and now it's figures well.

28:49 Look at that then your book that you write while it's great is going to only had an audience of several thousand a museum can hit millions and you know a couple of years, right? That's kind of the place that I was thinking of and I have to tell you I was a little bit of more of a nineteenth-century historian. That's what my dissertation is on. But this whole idea of questioning the system looking at, you know, saying that African Americans aren't waiting for no one's waiting for Lincoln to write the Emancipation Proclamation people their self agency, right? And so as it evolves into the Civil Rights Movement, I was like, wait a minute. This doesn't stop in 1872 when reconstruction ends. This thing is evolving and these are ordinary people doing this extraordinary work and we have to start like really paying attention to it. And I also think the other level is that my family has this

29:46 Some of yours is ongoing civil rights story of things that they they've done and it was kind of like this is the family Lauren. I didn't really take it seriously until I got older like I didn't realize my grandfather went through neighborhoods in East Orange and put together a but a group of buses for folks to go down to the March on Washington 1963. Only family member who was down there. So it's stuff like that that kind of spur me on what I like about the work that we do here is that it is that Grassroots story, right? I think with the renovation of the museum we have embraced saying hey, wait a minute. The King has great Malcolm X is great, but there are all these other folks that are doing this work and I think we're people will people are still missing in the dialogue is that this is years of work right? Like Montgomery doesn't happen just from 1950.

30:46 It's 10 15 years of dogged, you know sacrifice to make these things happen. So yeah, so I guess we should talk about and I last few minutes the national Civil Rights Museum this wonderful place that we're at

31:03 So how did you first encounter the museum? So I first encountered Museum when I first arrived here in Memphis in 2005 assistant professor of history of African American history in the civil rights movement in particular. So I make a beeline before I even came to like a barbecue ShopRite which saying a lot because I love BBQ, right, right. So so yeah, so I know I started coming over here almost immediately and you know what teaching the Silver Eyes classes

31:38 I got to bring my glasses over here, right? So, you know, so I became out our friend and supporter of the museum from jump right over here always trying to make myself available to the staff to do any sorts of workshops or help with any sorts of exhibits and things of that nature and then I was fortunate enough to be on the renovation team few years back. And so that really that really sort of I was really appreciative of that and then, you know from around that point you and I started then you then you came up on the scene and then, you know, we started to really seriously play plots and schemes of things exactly. I arrive at the Civil Rights Museum. It wasn't during regular hours. So we are kind of your past and I knew about the Lorraine Motel and everything and I was like, okay and then I was looking for a job because I finished my P.

32:38 I was having a bunch of different side hustles. I saw this job come up which was interpretation Collections and education director. And I looked at the description. I was like, oh I can do all of this. I've got this experience. I said, you know, let's put out the resume and see what happens and I got an interview and I came and I was just really impressed with the renovation and the story and I was like, yeah, I think I I think I can bring something to this. I think my you know, my network and understanding the academic Community but also understand the needs of the public can make something cool happen. And so that's kind of how I ended up here. And as I was moving my professor, you know, Darrell Scott sent me an e-mail said Noel once you get situated in Memphis, you need to reach out to Charles McKinney. He'll take care of you. I was like, okay and hence, you know, and here we are.

33:38 Dorian is a brilliant compliment to the museum, right because you bringing that I at 19 century. I right, you know, I mean that the event and I think I really helps you and your ability to see this as the lawn seat to see the Longview a lot of people right? Because again, you know the text books and their coloring books and you know, and the thing that the post of this offer, you know, black history month told him that the movement started in 1955 and ended when Kim gets killed here in our first city and I think you know, so that's one of the things of many that you bring. I think you bring. I think you bring to the table right is your ability to help people understand the Long Haul so them that they can make those connections between slavery and reconstruction literally jump rope. Culminating leading up to a civil rights. And and Beyond so I know it's definitely one of the things that you're bringing to the table.

34:40 Traffic what else should we talk?

34:43 The workshops will yeah, let's talk about it works out. I think our workshops are awesome. And actually I think it's a pretty it's a unique thing, you know bringing in. I think our first Workshop which was countering the master narrative was you know, this is going to sound arrogant brilliant just absolutely brilliant because I think that the issue for a lot of teachers is that they're still stuck in this hole King Malcolm X Rosa Parks thing and for us to blow that out for them is a little earth-shattering, you know, you can always see the looks of like shock on their way somewhere like this is not how the World War. I feel like we're both Morpheus in The Matrix and we hand in the two pills and it's like they're waiting to figure out which one they should take right and when they do take it, they're like, oh I did not know all of this is happening. Right? So, you know kudos to the Civil Rights Museum for giving us to space to again flat flats and ski,

35:43 Westford Public School teachers here in Shelby County coming in to learn about the movement and figure out how to teach the movement in their in their in their classes from K to 12, right? You know, I'm thinking about thinking about Civil Rights Movement as a as a curricular piece that can make its way into all corners of the curriculum write. This is English. This is history. This is social studies and it can start early. Like I really really does bother me when people think Pre-K cannot begin to have these conversations and understand the complex issues of race or item you introduce concept of fairness and equality to them. They get it pretty quickly or personal stories, right? I don't have the luxury of not having to endure or not having to Grapple with these issues right now. It's not like it's not like I got Exempted from these things when I was nine because I was too young. So so that's you know, so that reveals a certain level of privilege right in terms of all, we don't want to expose our children to bee stings in the class.

36:43 Well, they're being exposed to these things on the playground right there being exposed to these things in there and their day-to-day lives. So let's that's disingenuous to say that you don't want to give that you want to talk about these things. Cuz that what that means it is, you don't want to give you're not giving kids that the tools in the scaffolding with which to navigate those issues, right, you know, and so we don't have that we don't have that. We don't have that luxury. Yeah, I will say that museums for my parents became a place for us to reaffirm our identity and to help us kind of understand that we are in a larger story. Right? So from look going to the Henry ossawa Tanner retrospective at the Philadelphia Art Museum or taking us to the Smithsonian they have this place and I think that's when things that we do so well that okay you may not know exactly how to tell if if you could just bring your kids here and they can understand that there is a bigger concept that there they find themselves in.

37:43 Yeah, I think it's I think it's crucial. I mean that is absolutely absolutely crucial. I know the last few minutes. I'm going to give a shout out to Charles Wesley McKinney senior and Lily Theresa Thomas McKinney. My mom and my dad. All right. Well, if you got shot at your pants, I cash out my parents. Dr. Earl David Trent Jr. And dr. Janice raise rent who are pretty much the reason why I'm doing this thing days when it's not so hot, like what you do to me. I could have been a lawyer. Yeah or business person like white. Why did I do this history right there and we are not getting paid money for the internet rumor.

38:43 Weather for the pass in the port of people under torture. Yes, that's right. That's right. But but here we are.