Norma Smith and Arlene Odeja

[00:02] ARLENE OJEDA: All right, go ahead. Hi, I'm Arlene, and I'm calling in from Greendale, Wisconsin, and Norma.

[00:16] NORMA SMITH: Hi, I'm Norma, and I'm calling from Henrico, Virginia. Great.

[00:23] ARLENE OJEDA: And why did you guys want to participate? With one small step.

[00:31] NORMA SMITH: My pastor sent me a link on facebook, and it looked very interesting. And I have had the opportunity to be around a lot of diversity. So I felt that I would, this would be something I would like to be a part of.

[00:59] ARLENE OJEDA: Awesome. What about you, Arlene? I heard about it through the Glenn Beck podcast, and I just felt like I want to know the other side. I want to know why you believe what you believe and why we're so divided when we're so, we're not different. We're all, we're all equal. We're all alike. So I'm trying to figure out why we're so divided. And I think a conversation with somebody I wouldn't normally get to talk to is awesome. Great. So I'm going to go ahead and ask, and you guys can take turns. What were your lives like growing up?

[01:50] NORMA SMITH: Well, I'll go first. I'm 80. I'm 80 years old. I was born in October 15, 1943. So I have a birthday coming up. And I grew up in South Carolina, which was, I grew up on a farm. My father had a farm. I'm African American. We owned. Our father had 60 acres of land that it was family property. My great grandfather, who we still to this day, we have to do some more research. We don't know how he was able to come have that land, but he was able to, you know, with his children. I guess you say he had some generational wealth. And so anyway, we were farmers, grew up on a farm. I'm the youngest of four children. My father worked very hard and sent us all to college. And that was back in the days when nobody was really, it was very few people for our community that was able to go to college. I did demonstrations. I had to. When I went to college, it was during the sixes in 1963, and I marched. We went through all of that. And my point was that I wanted my children and my grandchildren to have access to where they wanted to live, what they wanted to do. And that was the purpose of, that's how I got involved in the civil rights movement. After that time, I've had the opportunity. I got married. I have three sons. I lived in predominantly white neighborhoods. My children have had the opportunity to go to some of the best schools. And I have three sons, and they are all three have their master's degree, so. And I have grandchildren, and they are in college also. But in this whole process, I know that I'm open minded, because right now I'm 80, but I still. I'm an independent contractor for. I'm a substance abuse counselor. So I work with all people that come from all backgrounds, and we have more in common than we, you know, I go to predominantly presbyterian white church, and so I'm open to new ideas, and I talk to people whose political views are different from mine. But I know that in the time of struggle, you know, these people who we are following are not going to be available to us. You know, we don't have to drill out our neighbors, you know, and nobody asks you if you sick or needs to, you know, need something. Nobody said, oh, well, I can't, you know, take care of you. So I think our division is mostly noise, because I don't see us really being that different. And that's almost stopped right there.

[05:35] ARLENE OJEDA: First off, I'd like to say, norma, really, really admire you for sticking up for what you believe in and going to jail for what you believe in. That's really awesome. I grew up a little bit later than you. I was born in 62, so the civil rights movement was pretty much. Pretty much over with by the time I was self aware. I grew up on a small hobby farm. I was the youngest of six kids, and we grew up working. We worked. We had crops, we had animals. And when we weren't working on at our house, we went and helped our uncles, who were also dairy farmers. So I grew up understanding the work. Yeah, I feel like just listening to you. We have a lot more common in common that we, you know, wouldn't otherwise have discovered. So I think it's really great being able to talk to you.

[06:41] NORMA SMITH: Yes, yes, yes. My best friend is the occasion. We met at work 40 years ago. Our sons grew up together, and she was from the. Her family did tobacco, and we did cotton. And so, you know, she grew up in Virginia, I grew up in South Carolina. But as we. As we became friends, we realized that we were just so. We had so much in common because we had the basic. You know, our families gave us that basic family value.

[07:23] ARLENE OJEDA: That's really awesome. I think a lot, you know, I think most of us have it. We just. Unfortunately, these days, with. With computers and phones, we don't. We don't talk to each other. We talk to our devices, and that's really sad to me.

[07:40] NORMA SMITH: Yeah. Yeah. Cause we don't have to live this way. We really don't.

[07:47] ARLENE OJEDA: No, I agree. We have choices.

[07:52] NORMA SMITH: And that's why I was so impressed with this, you know, with this when I felt it when my pastor said this to me, because one of the things that he did with, you know, before the pandemic is that she had started us getting together and everybody pairing and being able to talk to each other because, you know, just going to church, sometimes you see people, but you don't know anything about them. And she had us to just meet informally so we could just talk and find out about each other. And I think that this. When I saw this, I thought this was a great opportunity. And whoever. Whoever thought of this idea promoted kudos to them.

[08:44] ARLENE OJEDA: I couldn't agree with you more. The next question I have is, who was the most influential person in y'all's life, and what did they teach you? Okay. For me, I would say it would be my oldest brother who's since passed. He was born brain damaged, so he was developmentally disabled. He was ten years older than me. So, I mean, I've known him since I was born. He may not have been able to communicate things and teach me to things verbally, but I learned a lot of life lessons from him. I believe that's how I learned patience and understanding, which I feel are like two of the biggest values for me that people should have, because, again, we're all more the same than we are different. And I think that he really. He really taught me that it's so important to fight for people that can't fight for themselves as well. And, yeah, he's my hero.

[10:07] NORMA SMITH: Well, mine would be my mother, because I remember this very vividly. We lived on the farm, so it wasn't like we had. And we, you know, we had cows and horses and chickens and. And we raised all kinds of food and did all that stuff, but so, you know, we didn't have a whole lot to give. But my mother, with her canning and doing all kinds of cooking and stuff, she always would look out for other people. Everybody had. Whoever came to do up in our yard before they left. She always had something to give them to take home. Well, what really still stays in my mind, she went to visit one of the neighbors, and when she went to visit him, he didn't have a mattress. You know, he had a straw mattress, not a real mattress. So she came back home and just took the mattress, one of the mattress off our bed, and took it over because she said she couldn't stand to see this man that was sicken and there he was laying, you know, not on a good mattress. And so that's why I became a, you know, social worker. And to this day, you know, I'm there for even, you know, regardless of what I have or don't have, you know, I know that this is what, when it says, love your neighbor as yourself, that is what. That's what I try to live by because I saw my mother demonstrated.

[11:46] ARLENE OJEDA: Well, that's really nice. So the next question is, what do you believe has influenced your personal political beliefs the most, ie, a person, event, religion, etcetera?

[12:03] NORMA SMITH: Well, I would say my, um, my upbringing, my, um, life experiences. That's what, you know, that's what has impacted me.

[12:17] ARLENE OJEDA: I think I have to agree with you, Norma, on that one. Do you guys have particular examples of, like, a specific life experience that really did inform your political beliefs? I think for me, when I, you know, I guess I didn't pay enough attention to politics when I was younger. And as I got older and became a property owner and, you know, responsible for myself and my own well being and providing for myself, and I realized the way things were going was not good, and I started to pay attention to what was going on and why. I.

[13:05] NORMA SMITH: I think with me, it hasn't been so much about me and my situation, but about, you know, others, why, you know, the discrepancy by me being a social worker and being in the counseling social worker field, you see the inequities from education to employment, you know, to everything. And so that is what has shaped my opinion.

[13:50] ARLENE OJEDA: Okay, the next question is, what does patriotism mean to you?

[13:59] NORMA SMITH: Well, to me, patriotism means. That means freedom, being that we are a cognizant of our freedom that nobody is pressing into our home and, you know, telling us what to do or taking our family members or, you know, doing, you know, really invading your own privacy. So paper tizzy. You know, I love America. You know, regardless, as the congressperson from Georgia said, it doesn't matter how we got here. We're all. And we all in this together. And from people from the distance, to see how people are swimming and walking and doing everything they can to get to America shows how important it is to be able to even, you know, I can look at, you know, my great. Yeah, we didn't. We didn't want to come. You know, we didn't volunteer to come here, but we are here, and while we are here, we have been able to make tremendous progress. Have we been in any other country? This may not have happened. So I'm just really thankful and grateful that I'm here in America and that I have the choice. I have choices, but I can decide, you know, who I want to leave and fall and who I don't want to. So that's what it means for me to have choice, and nobody's making me do anything I don't want to do.

[16:01] ARLENE OJEDA: I would have to agree with you, Nora, on pretty much everything you said. I feel like we. We all live here. We're all from different places, different backgrounds, but we all have to love each other and help each other. And being a patriot, is that the love of country, love of people, love of freedom, having our inalienable rights, and just loyalty. Loyalty to everyone.

[16:35] NORMA SMITH: Yeah. You know, I have no, I don't have. My son visited me today, and that's why I was kind of off schedule, my oldest son. And the thing we were talking about is we really don't have. We don't have any authority to make any other people make another person to do anything. We don't have any control over other people. The only person we have control over is ourselves. And by me being a substance abuse clinician, every day when we meet and every day when we need, we say, God, grant us a serenity to accept the things that cannot change and the courage to change the things that it can and the wisdom to know the difference. And this is what I live by. Some things I don't. I know I don't have any control over anybody or any person but myself. And I try to keep myself and my frame of mind in a positive sense. It works for me. You know, I'm 80, almost 81. I work three days, three or four days a week, and I have very little health issues, praise God. But I try to be able to meet people where they are. I don't spend a lot of time arguing with people or criticizing others. I just try to do the best I can.

[18:16] ARLENE OJEDA: I love that. That is really awesome. So the next question is, have political discussions or arguments strained any of your relationships with friends, family, or coworkers? For me, yes, there are. So I work with the elderly. I'm a property manager for senior housing and persons with disabilities, and there's so many conflicts in my building between left and right, and I've seen it wreck friendships because it's such a hot issue right now. And I do have a co worker that has different beliefs than myself, and we've chosen to just put that aside. And it's not something we talk about with each other because we each have our own point of view. I don't want to change her. She doesn't want to change me. For the most part. I think most of my friends are like minded, most of my family members as well. But I just feel like even if there are those differences, we can work around them and we can still be friends. Little patience and understanding goes a long way.

[19:48] NORMA SMITH: Yeah. You know, it's always been a two party system, you know, the beginning of our democracy. And we know we win some and we lose some, and that's the way, you know, because I'm 80, so I've been through all of, you know, because doing campaigns, everybody's the best, but we know that in our democracy, it really depends on. It's not the human being themselves, it depends on Congress and all of that to make things actually happen. So when we become. And I don't know, I think this because we change from being a we people to I people when it's all about me and who can, you know, and we. I don't know, it just. I just still feel that everybody has a right, because this is America, and everybody has a right to their beliefs, and we are shaped by our beliefs based on our experiences. You know, if I was born someplace else or born to different family members, I would be thinking differently, but I wasn't. So, you know, none of us have any control over everything. We didn't just, you know, we just plopped out of the skyd, you know, we had no control over who our parents were going to be, where we were going to be living, what country we were going to be living in, or anything. We just. We were just here. So all of us are doing the best we can with what we have, you know, what we have. So I don't have the right to tell you how you should think or how you should live, but just hope that we can, you know, we don't hurt each other. You know, we can say we can think differently. You know, even twins are different. You know, all of us are creators, you know, created us all equally, but we are all different.

[22:14] ARLENE OJEDA: Was there anything that you guys were hoping got discussed in today's conversation?

[22:23] NORMA SMITH: Will you ask that again, please? I didn't hear you.

[22:25] ARLENE OJEDA: Yeah. Was there anything that you were hoping got discussed in today's conversation? I guess for. Go ahead, Norma.

[22:43] NORMA SMITH: We will be discussing again, right? She's going to be my partner or we just do different ones. I guess that's one of the things I didn't understand about Stereoco. Do we keep the same people? Do we, you know, get hooked up with other. Others.

[23:03] ARLENE OJEDA: The more you participate, the more you get paired with different people.

[23:12] NORMA SMITH: Well, this. To me, this has been a very good exchange.

[23:18] ARLENE OJEDA: Yeah, for sure. Arlene, you had something right. I just wanted to say I was. It's kind of weird, because even though I feel like we're way more the same than we are different, I was hoping to hear a different point of view. But yet what I heard was somebody that's so similar to me, it's just crazy. I mean, we're from different states. We're 20 years apart. We think alike, we have the same values. It's pretty awesome. I guess I was kind of hoping to learn about somebody that maybe was different than me and maybe would open up my horizons to new thoughts and new ideas.

[24:07] NORMA SMITH: But this.

[24:07] ARLENE OJEDA: Okay. This was okay, too, because, again, we are more the same than we are different. Well, how about this? Is there a. Do you identify with a political party? Why or why not?

[24:26] NORMA SMITH: I did. I identify as a Democrat, and I am a Democrat. Just, you know, like, through the civil rights movement or whatever. However, I do pay attention, and I'm in Virginia, and one year, I did vote Republican for a republican governor. And so I really do try to do my homework, but I do pay attention to human rights. I do look at the cause by me being a social worker, and I work for the Department of corrections. I look at justice, the court system. I look at all of those systems. And based on what I've seen in my lifetime, you know, the. You know, with the Johnson administration, it just offered. It offered so many opportunities for us after, you know, for the african american community, you know, after going through so many years of segregation, so to be able to have some decent jobs and better, you know, first head start and those kinds of things, it meant a lot to. So when I look at. And I'm a little, you know, I have a little independent contract a little bit. But when I look at how others. How just I think some situations, I feel don't have to be. And that being, you know, growing up as a Christian, when you say you're supposed to look at the least of these. So that's. That's why, you know, that. That. That's where I'm coming from. But I understand everybody don't have my. Haven't had my experiences, and they, you know, I'm sure if I had other experiences, then I can see it from a whole different. And I have. I do. I do have people who are different from me and who do have different, and they are able to share why they feel the way they do, and that's what freedom is. I don't, I don't say, well, you oughta, you know why or what I just say at this time. This is what I know and this is what I've seen.

[27:09] ARLENE OJEDA: I would have said, if you would have asked me this probably a year ago, I would have said I was a Republican. But I feel like more and more to me, I vote more based on policies than person or party because that's what's most important to me. My parents were Democrats and I don't think they're the same Democrats as, as we have currently. I don't think that the party has, it has changed. And I don't think that if my parents were alive that maybe they wouldn't be voting Democrat now. I don't know, but I don't identify with one or the other. It's kind of like religion to me. I believe there's one God and many ways of celebrating him. And I feel like it's kind of that way with politics, too. There's good and bad in all sides.

[28:09] NORMA SMITH: Yes. You are so right. You are so right. I agree with you.

[28:17] ARLENE OJEDA: Thank you.

[28:19] NORMA SMITH: We're not doing, look, when you say, Justin, there's no controversy here.

[28:26] ARLENE OJEDA: No. All right.

[28:31] NORMA SMITH: I got one for you.

[28:33] ARLENE OJEDA: Are there any issues that motivate you to engage what is extremely important to you? Why and how did you come to these beliefs?

[28:49] NORMA SMITH: I get the human, I think we're just too mean to each other. And this is not just political wise. I think that family members aren't, you know, like parents aren't good to their children. Children aren't good to their parents. Nobody, everybody's mean. And I don't know how, you know, and I work on it. I, when I go and deal with my clients and, you know, they are so, you know, this person did this or this one said that or everybody's complaining and I'm like, why, why are we so angry? He had to work on your fields all day. Life is to be, after 80 years, life is good compared to what we went through. We didn't have electricity or water, but now people got everything and they just as mad and unhappy as they can be. I just don't get it. I don't get it.

[30:03] ARLENE OJEDA: I like that answer and I really agree with it. I think for me it's more about also, I should say about my children and are they going to be able to own a home and have, you know, have whatever they want to work for? Are they going to be able to do that? Are they going to, what's life going to be like for them? And I feel like we're being constrained more and more and more and not free like we should be. And I don't want that for my kids, and I don't want that for anybody's kids, because, like Norma says, we all have the right to choose, think the way we want to think. And I feel like the clamps are being put down on us. And so I'm going to fight for my freedom and for everybody else's because we should all have it. Great. Norma, did you have something to say?

[31:10] NORMA SMITH: No, I agree. You know, we can do better. I really do feel we can do better. We do not have to beat each other up in order to get what we need. We should be able to compromise. And I think that's what the forefathers was trying to. That's why they tried to have a balance of power that nobody can rule over someone else. This has been done. It doesn't work. It does not work. We do better when we all are. We don't have to agree with everything and be like robots, but when, you know, this works for me and this works for you at the same time, I think it can work. We compromise in our family, you know, relationship, jobs. We know how to do this.

[32:09] ARLENE OJEDA: Agreed. I think back to 911 and I think about, it didn't matter what walk of life you came from, you know, what you believed in, everybody came together and did something to help out in some small way, but we all worked together, and where did that go? Why can't we be that way today? I don't get it. We just.

[32:40] NORMA SMITH: I really believe that we can. We can do it again.

[32:45] ARLENE OJEDA: I sure hope so. So my next question is, what are y'all's hopes for the future, both personally and politically?

[32:58] NORMA SMITH: Personally, my hope is I stay healthy and keep my mind. So many people I know and family members and friends suffering from dementia and my hope and other terminal illnesses, and my hope is to stay healthy personally, well, as best I can. I know I'm not going be here forever, but to be able to have the best quality of life that I can, you know, so. And be a good role model to my children, my grandchildren. And politically, I just pray that we.

[33:45] ARLENE OJEDA: Will.

[33:48] NORMA SMITH: Try to think of more than ourselves, you know, just instead of me thinking about, you know, what's making me okay, to think about what may be okay also for my neighbor.

[34:09] ARLENE OJEDA: I think for me personally, is knowing that my kids are okay and that they can survive and they can live with the freedoms that I've enjoyed all my life. If I know that's the case, I'll die a happy woman. Politically, I want that for everybody as well. There's got to be a way. There's got to be a way that we can all get back to where we were, get along. And I think there's so many things that I want to say, but I can't think of how to put them in a short form answer. I guess it is the divide. It's got to stop. It's just got to.

[35:02] NORMA SMITH: It has to. Or else we want to. We got to go down. We're going to go down together. There's no way.

[35:11] ARLENE OJEDA: Separate, but together, we're going to go down.

[35:13] NORMA SMITH: Yeah. You're so right.

[35:19] ARLENE OJEDA: All right, y'all. My last question is, what is something that you will take with you from this experience?

[35:29] NORMA SMITH: That Arlene and I have a whole lot in common. Even with the differences, our common core is the same. And that is why that's what I always have to lead. And I will continue to believe that. We all want the same thing. We all want to be loved. We all want to be accepted. We all want to be secure.

[36:07] ARLENE OJEDA: That is true. I would say that I haven't seen any differences between the two of us. I feel like even though you identify one way and I identify another way, I haven't seen any different or heard any differences, I should say. And you know what? If you're in green ever in Greendale, Wisconsin, you are so welcome to come stay at my house. I would love it.

[36:31] NORMA SMITH: Oh, my goodness. Well, look, I got your name, and Wisconsin is a state that I have not been in. And so I go. I still on my bucket list is still to go to some states I have never visited, so.

[36:48] ARLENE OJEDA: Well, you are welcome.

[36:50] NORMA SMITH: Good help. And that my mind stay. Okay.

[36:59] ARLENE OJEDA: All right, guys. That would be so awesome.

[37:03] NORMA SMITH: You guys can go ahead.

[37:06] ARLENE OJEDA: Sorry. I'd like to say, if you want to, Norma, I'd be more than happy to continue talking to you. If we can share phone numbers, that would be awesome.

[37:21] NORMA SMITH: It would be. I would. I would really like to know more about you and maybe we could FaceTime and do all that kind of stuff.

[37:32] ARLENE OJEDA: Agreed. That'd be great. All right, guys, you can conclude today's interview by thanking one another for joining today. And I will stop the recording. Thank you. It was lovely to meet you.

[37:46] NORMA SMITH: It's nice to meet you, Arlene. And we'll keep. We'll keep in touch. And, Justin, I guess you could do that. You could send me Arlene's number and send her my number and email and all that stuff, and we could stay in touch.

[38:02] ARLENE OJEDA: You got it. Thank you.

[38:05] NORMA SMITH: And thank you. Justin, how long have you been doing this? Look, I'm going to interview you, Nan. How long have you been doing this?

[38:12] ARLENE OJEDA: Quite some time. Let me end the recording real quick.