Not Everything Goes as Planned

00:00 Okay. I don't have such an organized story, I'm afraid. That's okay. It seems to me. Oh, so my name is Roberta Liebman. Bert On November 22. November 17, 2022. It seems to me that lots of people have kind of a plan in their life of what they would like to do, and they set about doing it. I mean, I never had such a plan. I was kind of a vague wanderer among libraries and books, and I was a bit vague and was really interested in english literature, english history. Studied for a bit in England for a little while, and I didn't have a glimmer of what I wanted to do with my life. It seemed like it would be good to be useful, but I didn't have much other plan than that. I got married shortly after college, and we had a child. And then because I had been an only child pretty much in my life, I thought, we don't want this child to be all alone. We should have another one pretty soon. And it turned out that that one turned out to be twins. Suddenly. Whoa. I had three babies. They were less than two years of age, and I was supposed to figure out what to do with them, and I had to stop wandering around wondering what book I was going to read next. So it was a pretty hectic and transformative time for me. I had to think of myself as a very different person responsible for these three little babies and then three wild little boys. And I started to sort of become somewhat more assertive, I think I had never been before. After being at home for quite some time with them, I thought, I really got to get out of here a little bit. And I saw a notice that children's hospital school for kids with hearing loss was looking for some volunteers, and I thought, well, I could probably do that. And I arranged for a babysitter and went down and helped out mainly in an art class with kids with severe hearing losses. And they were very interesting, but the director of the program kept saying, nah, you got to go to graduate school. And so after a year or so of prompting, I did start a graduate program as a speech in speech and language at catholic university. It should have taken me three years, but because I only went part time and because I had to do internships almost every semester that I was taking a course, it took me seven years. But by then I had sort of been an intern in virtually every facility in Washington, at the VA, and I've been at Walter Reed, and I've been in schools for kids with disabilities, and I've been. I've been all over the place, many.

03:43 Connections, so I just got a lot.

03:47 Of pictures of speech. And language development is really extraordinary. But I still didn't have a job, and I still didn't know quite where I was going. When a friend from graduate school, who is a little bit ahead of me, called and said, bert, I'm working at this great school. You've got to come and work here with me. It's a school for preschool children, very young children, with a variety of pretty serious physical and neurological problems, and they need another therapist. Okay, here I am. It turned out to be wonderful. The schools had a wonderful transdisciplinary approach, so that instead of passing kids around from therapist to therapist or teacher to teacher or whatever, we were in teams. The parents, the teachers, the physical therapist, the occupational therapist, the speech language therapist. We were in a team, and we all had to understand what everybody else's goals were for this child, so that anytime you interacted with them, whether you were changing a diaper or you were helping somebody have lunch or you were playing together, all of those goals had to be integrated. It was an incredible learning experience, and it taught me way more than any course could ever have taught me about physical development, play development, language development. It was at about that time that we were pretty lucky at the school. But the saudi embassy gave us money to buy an enormous old, then new Apple iie computer. And we thought, wow, we could do things with the kids for this, with this. And, yes, indeed we did. You could set it up so that you could have a single switch and a child who could barely use their hands to do much exploration, but could hit the switch and make something really interesting happen. Well, we were trying all this time to think of how play and interaction were the bases of language development. So here we were trying to develop some sense of an ability to act on the environment, to develop some curiosity that it's often difficult to develop if you don't have control over your environment. All those things that we know are basic to intellectual and language development. And here was the computer. And then we discovered there were these two guys in the neighborhood who were really eager to learn programming. They were willing to write programs for us, and they did. And they. I remember one, there was a program where all you had to do was to hit one or two switches, and you could get a child dressed to go out to play in the snow. So if you hit something, they'd put the hat on and hit something else, and the boots would go on. So the kids got really interested. Hey, they began to see that it didn't take too much to hit the switch or to point in some way, because you could also use the touchscreen. And all kinds of things began to evolve. And then we started with all sorts of language, communication, books and pictures. So even if a child was not doing too much, could indicate with eyes looking at the picture either of sandwich or milk, that's what they would choose to eat next. And instead of being fed, here was a little kid making decisions about what I'm going to eat next. Is it going to be the apple or the sandwich or the milk? And that was enough to get the communication going. So that was really very, very exciting times. And I did that for about 20 years. And the thing, as technology changed, the possibilities got greater and greater. So that was really excellent. But by then, I was in my middle fifties, and I'd been crawling around on the floor with little kids for a long time. All my corduroy pants had white knees because I've been on the floor so much. And we did all do a huge amount of physical care, whether it was feeding or lifting and diapering and whatever. And I saw an ad that Gallaudet University, the university for the deaf, was starting a new program. They wanted to. It was a graduate program for people who wanted to become speech language pathologists, but who had a particular interest in hearing loss, and they needed clinical supervisor. So. Well, that sounds kind of interesting, and I wouldn't have to be on my knees all the time, so I went over just to chat, and it turned out to be extremely interesting. So I stayed, and I was maybe 5 miles from my home, but I was entering another culture. The language was different. Asl I never became fluent in the sign language, but I certainly learned some and learned to admire, really and respect how much it matters to people to have that freedom of communication that sign language allowed. So it was an extraordinarily interesting time. And there was another form of communication. We had been talking with the little kids about alternative and augmentative systems of communication. Well, here was an, a well formed, perfect alternative form of communication. And again, I just learned a huge amount and had the good fortune again, of working with a team of people, primarily other speech pathologists, audiologists, and oral rehabilitationists, and I'm still in touch with those people. It seemed like an extraordinarily good fortune that I had landed there without ever, ever being able to imagined it before. So after I retired, I began doing a lot of teaching of English as a second language, and drawing upon everything I had learned before about how you get languages going. And the organization that I was helping usually referred to me, anyone with any sort of special needs. So there were people coming to this country with visual problems, hearing problems, and there was a young woman who'd had a very serious brain injury in Iran, and generally they were my students and from whom I learned, again, enormously. So it didn't have any plan at all. It just went from one thing to the next. But I can't imagine. I could never have imagined having so many really interesting, challenging situations that just kept unfolding one after another, and with the enormous good fortune of always having very good people to work with. Not a lot of money, but a lot of really good, strong coworkers. So I feel very fortunate in my unplanned, kind of wandering way.

12:51 That's awesome.

12:56 It doesn't. It seems. It seems like life should have more of a plan, but it really didn't.

13:09 I mean, it worked out for you, though.

13:11 It did.

13:12 You got to experience, like, so many different communities and just be a part of them, which is just so amazing.

13:24 Well, they tend to be communities that are marginalized in this society, and it has always seemed to me that to be useful in some way and to help include people rather than build fences between us.

13:48 Yeah, yeah, I, um. A few summers ago, I worked at, um, a, like, the summer school in my town, and I was working with the special ed students. And, um, it was super interesting to hear you talk about, like, their devices that they were using. Um, a little bit ago, because a few of my students, they were autistic, and they would use, like, the AC advice or devices is what they were called. It was basically just like, they're like an iPad and it talks for them, but it was super interesting to hear, like, kind of the start of that. And then also, like, you're talking about how even just, like, using your eyes, like, students were able to communicate what they want, which is. That's just amazing.

14:35 We always had this feeling that any way that you could communicate, any way would foster more communication. When you shut it all down, it's very easy for people to just retreat and wait for something to happen to them, but to develop some kind of way to reach out to, and to actually encourage curiosity. Curiosity tends to die when you can't explore it all. So it seemed important. Yeah. I remember one little boy, we even just had wrist bands. Once on a band around one wrist said yes, and on the other wrist it said no. And all he had to do was to look at one or the other. But he could make choices, which is crucial.

15:37 It, like, makes them, like, almost, like, feel like they're being heard or like that. They're, like, almost like a real person. I don't, like, mean that in a bad way, but, like, sometimes, like, a lot of people just don't have, like, the patience, and they're like, oh, like. Like, people will just do this, but, like, just giving them the choice, it gives them power, like, their own decisions, which is so, so crucial and important.

16:05 So there's a tendency always to talk to people, but they generally didn't have much of an opportunity, and I thought this was crucial to ask questions. So figuring out ways that kids could ask who or when is this going to happen? Seems so important. And it's a little bit more difficult to set up pictures and so forth that are immediately understandable for those question words. But we certainly did give it a try. And I remember one other therapist who used to put pictures of foods or things to play with on little pieces of paper with Velcro, and she would stick them all over her chest, and then the kids could either try to point in that direction or just look. But they were all right there in front of them, so. Yeah. Oh, you want to play with the dolls? Okay.

17:17 Just gave them choices. That's awesome. I feel like I've seen that used in, like, schools today, where they'll have, like, like, Velcro and then, like, a little piece of paper, and they can either just grab it or point at it, and it's just. It's awesome to, like, watch and see. Just, like, giving those who don't necessarily, like, have, like, they can't really speak like, how the rest of us speak, but it still gives them the opportunity to talk to us and, like, make their own choices and decisions.

17:50 Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, technology has come a long way since, well, it was 1988 when I left that school for little kids. So there's been a huge change in technology, and lots of good things have come along, but it takes a team to figure out how to do it. Often it's the occupational therapist and the physical therapist who can help you figure out how to position someone so they can reach or they can look or what form of. Of picture or word or sound thing is going to be possible. And the other thing is, you have to have figured out hearing whether there's a hearing loss, which is not always so easy to do initially. Yeah. But, you know, I sort of see these people connected to the course you're in now. The question of loneliness. And what are the barriers that some people have to engaging in the community or engaging with others? Hearing loss, language and abilities.

19:17 I've never really thought of that, but that is, like, very interesting. And, like, I've said a little bit before, like, we are, like, our final paper is, like, kind of, like, focusing on, like, a community that may be, like, lonely and then kind of figuring out a program. I kind of hope that someone is doing, like, the deaf community or something like that because I would love to hear about that because that is very interesting. And, like, I've honestly, like I said, I've never really thought of that, but, yeah, I'm sure it'd be super interesting to hear, like, just, like, their perspectives because I'm sure it can be kind of isolating, like, not, like, speaking or hearing like most people do, I guess, but, yeah, that's very interesting.

20:19 What is your project going to be on?

20:22 I. I'm doing, um. I am doing teens and foster care.

20:29 And.

20:30 Yeah. And how that can be. Like, they can be pretty isolated. Um, I was doing a lot of research, and, um, it was really sad, but, like, it, like, it. It makes sense, but, um, a lot of kids, they don't necessarily, like, a big part of your life is, like, having the adult figure that you're connected with and, like, feel comfortable with, and they don't really have that, so that could be pretty isolating to them. And then there's, like, whole other issues with, like, they age out at 18, and then they're kind of just on their own.

21:11 That seems to me incredible.

21:14 It's. Yeah, it's crazy because it's nothing. I know. 18, like, I guess you're an adult, but, like, not really. You're still a teenager. Like, I remember when I was 18, like, I had nothing figured out. Like, and then to just kind of be thrown on my own to, like, figure stuff out and, like, basically be, like, so much older than I actually am. And, like, a lot of these kids, like, they didn't have, like, stable homes, like, growing up, that they grew up in, and, like, that obviously, like, that led to a lot of them. Like, a lot of them have, like, mental health issues and, like, stuff like that. So it's just. It's crazy that they, like, our system, like, ages them out as soon as they turn 18, it's, like, so sad.

22:00 What are they supposed to do? Join the army? I mean, is that what we're telling them?

22:04 Like, basically actually, like, I was reading stuff. Like, a lot of them, like, the incarceration rate is pretty high for them just because they don't have that, like, stable person to, like, help them or, like, teach them, like, the rights and wrongs and, like, it's just. It's really sad.

22:27 I think many kids in foster care have been in more than one or two homes. Makes it even more unstable.

22:39 Yeah, I was reading that a lot of kids will, like, be in at least two homes, like, per year, which is just terrible. Yeah.

22:54 Just bouncing from place to place, looking for a bed and a meal.

22:59 Yes, I know. Just basically looking for, like, trying to get a family, which it's just so terrible.

23:08 Wow. So what kind of legislation governs that? I mean, do we have any rules about what happens to these kids and how. How they are treated?

23:25 No, I mean, there's rules with, like, DCF and, like, people who foster. Like, there is a certain way they, like, I mean, they have to, like, pass some tests to, like, foster these kids. But, like, our foster care system is just, like, it's kind of put on the back burner, which is, like, really sad. But these kids who are, like, some of the most, like, vulnerable kids, they really aren't taken seriously. And it just, like, leads to so many more issues later in their life. And it's just. It's not like, it's not a fair life. I guess they're not really given a fair chance, which is so sad.

24:06 Right, right.

24:08 Yeah.

24:14 So in terms of numbers, like, in Massachusetts, we have a huge number of children waiting for placements and homes.

24:27 Not Massachusetts wasn't too big, but also we're a smaller state. I was reading that California had the largest number of kids in foster care. I like, partly because California is a pretty large state, but they have the largest number in the US.

24:52 Wow. Do kids get adopted out of foster care?

24:58 Yeah, they can be. That's like the hope, but it doesn't happen for everyone. Yeah. Unfortunately, they can be in the foster care system for, like, almost their entire life. And sometimes kids are fortunate enough that they've just been with the same foster family for so long, and then they age out, but that family is still with them, which. That's always a good. Or usually a good situation. But not all kids are that lucky.

25:33 Am I right that the foster family gets paid a stipend every month?

25:38 Yeah, they get money for basically, like, the basic needs of, like, the child. So they get money for, like, clothing, health benefits, and, like, health needs, like, schooling if needed. So they do get some money, and it's like, all of it is supposed to go towards the kid. But sometimes people don't use it towards the kidde.

26:09 Yeah, well, that's, that's a major topic for.

26:15 I know it is. It's pretty big. I don't really know what kind of program I'm going to come up with to try and help them, but I have to think about it.

26:27 Yeah. When there were a lot of refugees coming here a few years ago, catholic charities and jewish social services sort of set up this idea that one family couldn't probably take on the responsibility of taking care of another family that had just arrived. But they set things up in what they called the circles of care so that like, maybe five families would join together and say, okay, we'll try to watch out for this family. We'll, we'll be their mentors and we'll help them get places or whatever. But I'm wondering if could there be like a circle of care where a bunch of relatives or a bunch of friends would say, okay, we'll be responsible for this kid and he'll live here, he or she will live here and we'll be here for, you know, maybe the original family is really tired and needs a break, but we're all here in this together. Like. Like a bigger family. Like all your relatives.

28:00 Yeah, that would be like, awesome if that could happen. It would like, especially if it was their own, like relatives, I guess, like people that they do know because that, like, it would give them like a.

28:15 Sense of family, I guess, or close neighbors or.

28:20 Yeah.

28:21 Something that made sure that when that kid was likely to need more help, there would be other people around.

28:35 Yeah, kind of just like a community. Kind of like Sydney was telling his story today about when he heard his leg, how the community was able to help him and like, help him keep his leg. Kind of like that. Yeah.

28:51 Yeah. No, that must have been an extraordinary community. I mean, can you imagine anyone carrying you and laying you on a table in the cv's now?

29:05 They would kick you out now.

29:08 Yeah.

29:09 Yeah. Pretty funny.

29:13 So Sydney, you know, was a social worker and.

29:17 Oh, really?

29:18 And worked a lot with foster children.

29:20 Oh, I had no idea. That's awesome.

29:24 And he told me once that most of the kids had at least five placements, but maybe. Maybe more.

29:32 Yeah. That I wouldn't be surprised. It's not only that they get like a new home, but sometimes they, like, get a new, like, school district too. So they're moving from school to school. So it's like so hard for them to keep relationships. And also, that doesn't help with the education part either. Because a lot of them, I think I read a stat that said only 50% of them end up actually graduating from high school. And it's like they just keep moving around, so it's so hard for them to see the benefit, I guess, or enjoy going to school just because they never know when they're just going to be picked up and placed somewhere else. Yeah, it's pretty crazy.

30:29 So from the school's point of view, you could have teachers, children like that in your classroom.

30:36 Oh, I can almost guarantee I'll have some kids like that in my classroom. Like, the areas that I'll be going or that I'll be teaching in. I definitely would. I like, I assume I'll have at least one or two kids that are in foster care.

30:55 It's interesting to think of what you could do from your end.

30:58 Yeah, definitely. I like if I end up coming with a good. Up with a good enough program that I feel like it would actually be beneficial. And if I have, like, kids like that in my community when I move to Philly for teach for America, I might actually look into, like, trying to start something just to, like, give them, like, some sense of community and, like, some help, just. I don't know.

31:26 Yeah. What could you do?

31:29 I don't know. Almost like, I feel like even just starting, like, an after school program, like, kind of like, just bringing them together and, like, even just a moment to just feel like they're kids, just be kids. Like, not really think about their, like, home situation, I think could be useful. I don't know. I definitely. I need to, like, think more into this, but, like, something like that, I definitely. I want to try and come up with something that is, like, feasible for me to actually start so I can maybe do it for when I move, but I don't know. I need to think more about what I actually think could work, I guess, or make an impact.

32:26 You don't have to have. Make a big impact.

32:29 Yeah.

32:31 Just something little.

32:33 Yeah.

32:33 And sometimes make the difference in a life.

32:37 No, yeah, definitely. Sometimes the littlest things can be the biggest things for certain people.

32:45 Just having somebody take an interest in you.

32:49 Yeah. Just like being there and being that adult figure.

32:59 Well, you have a plan?

33:01 I hope so. Hopefully I can carry it out. Well, definitely be some bumps in the road.

33:08 Well, you certainly thinking. Thinking more about how to be and how to. How to be in the world.

33:17 Yes.

33:20 I just kind of wandered in. It's good.

33:27 Do you have any plans for Thanksgiving next week?

33:30 Oh, you know, I have a son and daughter in law who live upstairs and they have a son who lives in Greenfield and there's some other relatives around, so I'm sure we'll be together here.

33:44 That's awesome. That'll be so fun.

33:47 Last Thanksgiving we were all sitting in our down coats on the porch. I. We'll see. You know, Covid is so mysterious.

33:57 Yeah, definitely. Hopefully you all can be in the warmth a little bit.

34:03 You'll be home with your family.

34:05 Yes, I'm going home next week at some point. And we always do like a big Thanksgiving at my house. My grandparents and then my aunts and uncles and my cousins, like, they all come over and we'll eat food together.

34:20 Yeah. Sharing food is a really good thing to do together, you know?

34:25 Yes. It really. It brings people together.

34:29 Even that is an afternoon thing, you know, like cocoa and apples or something.

34:35 Yes.

34:38 It's just a way to be together. Yeah. All right. You have a class.

34:47 I do have a class. Since next week is thanksgiving, would you be fine if maybe we don't meet next week and then we'll meet the week after when we're back?

34:59 Sure.

34:59 Yeah.

35:02 You can let me know what's good for you.

35:04 Yeah, I was going to say I can email you later next week or maybe early the week after and we can figure out a time, but, um, I think that'd be best. So, like, we can just enjoy Thanksgiving and not have to worry about like, doing stuff, but, um. Yeah, that's.

35:23 That sounds too. Are you.

35:25 Yeah, that's a week or two after we get back, so I've got a little bit of time.

35:31 You have a final in this class or. It's just a project?

35:34 It's just the paper. Yeah, I mostly. Most of my finals are just papers this semester, so it's not too bad. Yeah, lucky me. But yeah, I will see you soon and I hope that you have a great Thanksgiving.

35:52 You too.

35:53 Yes, thank you. And yeah, I'll email you later this week.

35:57 Okay, great.

35:59 Bye.