Virginia McCarthy and Mary McCarthy

00:00 Reset have a good time.

00:18 My name is Mary McCarthy. I am 49 years old today is March 22nd 2008. I'm at the Nashville Public Library and I am interviewing my mother, Virginia.

00:31 My name is Virginia McCarthy. My maiden name was Cantor kenter and I'm 83 years old. I'm also at the Nashville Public Library is being interviewed by whom my daughter Mary Catherine.

00:49 Okay, you don't have to be nervous mom. I know you're really nervous system out of this. I'm just going to ask you lots of questions about kind of growing up and your brothers and sisters and then when you were none for a while and then I'm going to ask you about getting married and and us kids and so it's just going to be lots of family stuff. How does that sound to you? So good to me. What is your earliest memory? My earliest memory? I think my earliest memory is going to be sad when I was sitting on the back porch and I heard my mother and father talking about Banks were going broke and I didn't know what's going broke meant and I said to my mother later, what does that mean? And she said a lot of people lost a lot of money because the bank closed down

01:46 And do you think that your mom and dad had any money in that? Did you go broke? I didn't think we lost a dime but because they have it but I don't know why I remember that so well, but I remember it, you know, I have my own impression of Nana and pop is Nana is really really tough and pop is really really quiet. But I think I'm probably wrong. What do you think man? And especially when you were little what were Nana and pop like my mother always seem to be slightly afraid.

02:21 Not slightly afraid afraid in in I used to wonder is a child. Maybe I should be afraid. I didn't know why she she worried about money. She worried about what the neighbors would say. Don't do that. The whole neighborhood will be talkin about us. As you know, Mary's it's true. She was afraid nobody could ride a bike because she's afraid I know you're going to get hit by a truck and killed. I mean nobody ever did anything simple like

03:03 And she said, you know the lady across the street.

03:11 Her son was riding a bike and he had been told not to ride the bike in his on the Irving Park streetcar line in she looks out the window and sees him hit by a truck out there ahead of fond of stories like this and she's said,

03:31 They were never the same again the whole fam. So she was not just afraid of things that happen the things that could happen.

03:46 I don't know.

03:50 Do you think she was happy or did Steve great mate? He was happy if we were all there and safe. She can see you all she could see us. So but otherwise she was very frightened of things that could possibly happen pop. Like pop was happy. I don't think he ever worried about you know, we're walking out of the house. We're going to get hit by a car. He was alert mother run has she paid the bills she doled out the do you know, but did she make all the decisions like that bought a house or something? Oh, yeah. Oh nana.

04:40 Would Mom would gone find the house?

04:47 Oh she handled when we were renting she handled it with the mr. Mrs. Goldberg who lived upstairs with their three daughters.

04:57 And she handled that she handled tuition at school. She handled everything did.

05:06 Could

05:08 Entertain himself, you know, he played crossword puzzles and he did the math problems. He loved to do me at the he listen to the radio. Even when we had just a radio. They used to call a crystal set and he had the earphones on I heard the vast do you let you listen sometimes yes around the ear phone. Yes, so it was just

05:40 He was not an unhappy man. All his life that he followed baseball. He didn't like football so much buddy, love baseball and claimed to have Met Gala Abby Hartman who was the one that they call the fella that stands behind the picture of the catcher. Maybe he was a catcher for the White Sox. No, I think he was for the Cubs is Daddy was a good man, but Nana was a White Sox fan wasn't she? Oh, I don't think she cared.

06:14 One way or another she would have been White Sox, I guess because she was south side but

06:23 And you know working down at the city hall which they always referred to in. The family is the hall he used to get free tickets and stuff from all take the whole gang of ass to the boat show in the flower show. And you know, it was free. How would you get there on the bus?

06:45 And with Nana go with you or would pop take all of you frequently. She went but not all the time. If it was a Cub game then when she went to what was your favorite thing when you were kids. What was your favorite favorite thing that you would do I loved it when we went to the park we lived until I was about 10. We live near Garfield Park, which is kind of a lousy neighborhood now. It was not the great neighborhoods them. But we go to Garfield Park at Mom and pick supper in the Instinct the baby in front of the supper and in the buggy, it would walk over to Garfield Park and they had concerts in the evening.

07:31 And I used to think

07:34 Where's the luckiest people in the whole world? You need to talk about when he got really really hot pop would sleep with you guys out in the park was at your Park. I'll just take blankets and going to take blankets and run around and yell and look the other kids we do and nobody had a mother who didn't have a fan is not know wouldn't burn the house down but some kid and stick their finger get their finger in their finger cut off a new three people. But so we go to the park which I must say, I didn't find the depression. So depressing so it do you remember it mostly is a happy childhood very happy child what your mom was weak to do so many things that other kid we want every flower show. We went to the auto show what key

08:34 The neighborhood went to the auto show nobody that are not honorable course and we went to the very earliest, you know, conventions and stuff would walk around and the World's Fair. What year was the world's fair amount 33 and 34 Chicago went bankrupt and that was when they made the money to pay the bills my mother and dad work for the city. So city was being corrupt and they didn't give him they didn't pay him and kale they didn't they paid them with script and the only store in Chicago that took script.

09:21 Was the Boston store? So on Friday night, we would go down to the Boston store and get groceries the whole gang of us. That was fun thing on the L and get the get out of here and go home and

09:43 Mom saved all those scripts

09:47 And then when they paid off and they paid off with interest.

09:52 First the Boston Store did pretty well, but the but we did to get $5,000 in cash to do with that $5,000. She went on the earth. She was expecting Billy. So she wasn't teaching and she went on the Irving Park car and she went to st. Benedict's in the first nun. She meant was talking German and she said now we can't be here now st. Benedict's it courses one of the Premier neighborhoods in Chicago.

10:28 But she went back on the street aren't you went to same Pascal's and they were talking English in the classroom. So she went to schorsch has right on the corner of Irving and

10:43 Sun Roofing in Byron or Irving and where you guys at? I don't know what your torch's real estate company and she said to Mr. Schorsch. I've got $5,000 in cash.

10:59 And he said

11:01 Each shoulder three houses

11:05 And she said the people we whose house we born with really angry because they had paid 25000 for their house, but they had a mortgage mother said never Morgan you lose your shirt. So she hit the owner of the house was willing to sell it tomorrow if she'd give him the 5000 was this before work. This is before World War so they call us 34 or maybe even earlier. I'm not sure when they cash back when they got the cash. She said I've got the cash, but your ear was still in the during the Depression, but there was this was the depression the depth of the Depression started in 29.

11:54 And then one through until about 38 39. It was a long long time when I was a kid, and we rented from The Goldbergs.

12:08 That was on Lexington between Pulaski and

12:16 The next street over Springfield and presentation church was right on the corner of Springfield and Lex which so we could just walk there was great and but there was a prairie on the other side of church and people were living there in cardboard boxes.

12:43 Am I know you was just saying don't ever walk down Springfield, cuz those people are grabbing children and ransoming them for $0.50 or 1/4. Something has the new he did. She did indeed. Did you believe that? That's if you want. Yeah, we used to be afraid to walk out and was the whole class was coming out of church, and I'm walking over to school.

13:18 But with a home now cuz I'm sure all our mothers told us the same thing.

13:24 You know to be held up for a $0.50 is so afraid of all these different things. What was the worst thing you did as a child. I mean she must have kept you under a pretty tight that we were under a very tight Bill. What was the worst thing you ever did that? You remember did you ever do anything that bad? I can't remember that. I was so horrible.

13:51 Mr. Furlong lives next door.

13:55 And he loved one that was about 4 x 6 what was no law that was a mud hole and he sits up on his porch in a minute would Kamala do you say half of the lawn and with all burst out laughing cuz there wasn't a weed growing in this mud hole and mothers don't ever laugh at mr. For long has happened to you someday. So anyhow, and then we'll walk down a couple more houses and would be at the church and you walk across Lexington to the worst thing you ever did was you left at? Mr. Furlong never caused any trouble I caused. I remember one time we used to go through the air has a lot of collecting bottles should get to sense if you brought him down to the grocery store.

14:48 And then it'll would be loaded. So it is sometimes she be in the alley causing trouble with my ble and I saw this man come out of his porch to some backyard and he was drunk.

15:09 I started screaming my head off.

15:13 And because I thought mom warned us about ever drinking.

15:19 Cuz you'll walk right into the street and get killed. I don't know what street this was that was supposed so busy nobody at all. She I saw this truck and he was wandering around acting silly.

15:42 And I'm standing there screaming my lungs off and he's looking at me and the lady one of the Goldberg ladies, you know, I forget which one came running downstairs and said George Virginia's in the alley and she screaming her head off.

15:59 Some man must be Daddy sleeps up and grabs the butcher knife and mother takes it away from him and says just beat him up to work answer.

16:13 Somali killed guy. So anyhow, he went down and rescued me brought me into the yard sitting down mother said to me did he say anything did he do anything? And I said no he was drunk.

16:29 She said nothing else.

16:35 I don't think he even notice me except when I was screaming. So, you know you got in trouble for that. You were one of seven kids who is the biggest Troublemaker in the family? Definitely? Why do you say definitely tell me what are the kind of things? He did have a love of language?

17:00 What you hear Tilly Tilly. He liked words.

17:05 And he would tease my poor father who is trying to listen to his stories. I remember those the story from Aesop's Fables in in like the second or third grade reader.

17:21 And it was the magpies. Listen to Meg pie made the most beautiful perfect nests.

17:30 And he will all the other birds wanted to learn but they'd only stay for one part of it. You know, he'd say gets a very strong tree find a very strong tree with branches that come out since you can make your nest down those branches one bird. It's a that's I get it and fly away and then it's and then you get twigs and you make this nasty get some and somebody else it fly away. So nobody ever really made the nest as good as the as well as the big bite.

18:10 Will Tom thought the funniest thing in the world would to be the change the name to the mud by.

18:18 So my poor father's trying to listen to the magpies lesson and Tom keep saying the mud Feist wasn't in the mud pie did this and dad eats a spell that word

18:31 And it's a magpies. What does m a g spell make? Okay. Well, you could hear my father a block away. Is he screaming at 4 in Tommy's sitting there? And we knew he's laughing his head off inside the magpies WhatsApp.

18:59 One day the bird song came to the mud pie. So he wasn't a major Troublemaker. He was just always kind of well, he was always had something going. I remember when he was at Loyola and he had to stay after school and when they had to stay after school, which was called jug

19:21 They had to memorize poetry and so Time new wish you well know an awful lot of poetry and he came home one day and Mom says Tom you get that shovel out and get the front porch steps shoveled cuz Daddy's going to really be me and we had a big chandelier in the living room everybody in the whole town helping chandelier hanging in the living room. I think they were about three bucks and they Crystal little Crystal pendants on layers of circles.

20:01 The time comes in after we were teasing them in said what bone do you know and if he had to memorize Old Ironsides?

20:11 And he said she'll sweep the clouds No More and he takes the shovel and sweeps the gloves and of course breaks the chandelier you would the fourth one of the Great.

20:26 Treasures of America had been destroyed mother was crying while I think we had to pay for it cuz we were in a rental.

20:36 And a

20:38 The Eddie was Furious and Tom if you could just tell he sitting there going. I'm so sorry. He wasn't he was just missed you. He was just mischievous. He wasn't really that bad though. He was illustrating how he learned in gym how to stand on his hands and he was illustrating this for mother and standing on the chair out in the kitchen and falls over on the stove and it was quite a mess. But did you have a nickname mom? You called Uncle Tom Tammy. Did you have a nickname for did that's what everybody called? You verbally told me anything else.

21:26 Well, my friend in Indianapolis call me Mischief, who are your best friends really the kids we played with The McCarthys, isn't it? Funny? Same name? We played with The McCarthys across the street.

21:47 Cuz they were big enough to cross the street, you know, we could be 25 before Mother thought we were big enough to cross the street. But any other McCarthy kids were able to cross the street and there's a type of house called as Chicago House you lived in one where you go down two steps.

22:10 From the sidewalk into the lower level into the lower level and then he's lived and then there's a long flight of stairs leading to probably not so long, but I thought it was long at first level to the first level and then there two doors there and you can go up to the second floor. So there's it's really a three-flat. That's it's probably from shortly after the Civil War where we lived.

22:41 They were all three play Garfield Park. Yes, son Lexington, but the McCarthy father whom I might have had a few numbers to drink from time to time.

22:56 Used to buy the strangest presents for the kids, but the one that really stands out and everybody's mine was

23:08 Keyport some skis for everybody's got the same present. I got this pair of skis

23:18 You know Chicago's flat as a pancake with able to use this case. They used the skis in the McCarthy way. What do they do?

23:30 They open the door they lived on the second floor.

23:35 It's really the third for you understand.

23:39 Did open the door to their apartment and open the bottom door and then that open the they could slide down in their skis course was no snow inside the house inside the house and then slide all the way down the front stairs. Well, it went on until somebody broke their arm and then the skis disappeared but we used to sit across the street on our porch and see if they can watch them ski, you you one of those things that we didn't know about you until we were much older was it you had been a nun for 13 years. That's right. When did you decide like where you would teenager when you decided to become a nun? When do you think you decided to be coming on when I was in high school?

24:29 Did any of your other friends were they going to become now? You just decided yourself a mcinerney in my class became the Sister of Mercy.

24:38 But dumb

24:40 I was the only one in our class. So when do you think your family was surprised? We're Nan and pop happy or were they surprised?

24:48 One thing was mom was always talking about how broke we were and how we couldn't get the kids through college and we couldn't do this we couldn't do they really wanted to go to college didn't you? Well, I did and I like to call which I did not like grade school at all hated this.

25:09 I liked High School little bit.

25:12 But that kind of got me ready for college.

25:17 And can you stop being a nun would be a way to go to college? Is that what wasn't the only reason you and

25:32 I think that was in I thought it would be a wonderful. What were there any nuns that like, it's cool that you said boy. I want to be like that or did you just

25:44 You know, I didn't understand what it calling would be but I really

25:52 I really thought I'd like to live their life. Actually. I didn't know much about myself because I didn't realize which is true.

26:04 I didn't really like to live with a lot of strange people a lot of people. I didn't know I didn't like that.

26:14 I know lots of parts of being a nun you didn't like cuz that's why you left. What was the fun part one of the parts. When you remember back to those years that you say now that I really liked that was really fun the church part, but just going to mass all the time going to Mia's see you in the rules re see you in prayers.

26:36 I liked that part. I liked hearing explanations of scripture. I like that fart you no commentary Jesus really mess and I like that.

26:53 Very very much. When did you know you had made a mistake when I know you stayed in the cabin 13 years, but how fast did you say? Oh, wow. This is not for me. I think I knew rather soon. Does this even my novice Master said Virginia? I told you over and over again. Maybe this isn't for you. Why couldn't you leave earlier? Why? Why did you have to stay 13 years?

27:23 I held it we convinced myself that this wasn't just a trial or something.

27:31 And suddenly I realized you know, what years through sort of throwing your life away.

27:37 Are you not a contemplatively which I never was?

27:43 An end

27:47 The structure I did not like the structure.

27:52 What was it one thing that finally made you decide to leave or no? I was just miss.

27:57 And I thought you know what it's over you were pretty sick want you to to do something where you're not really happy most of the time.

28:14 Why did you decide to keep it a secret from us? Cuz you kept it a secret. We always knew dad and study for the priesthood. We always knew all of his priests buddies and he would go there was grateful diem in the convent.

28:28 For anyone who left so you felt really well cuz you never talked to those ladies for like another 30 years, right?

28:36 Oh, I talk to Sister Mary a birth man. Who was my novice mistress? She called me up several times it okay for gym that you happy. Are you did you know is it okay?

28:55 And when you got out, did you ever say to yourself move? Maybe I need to go back. No, never never thought I would have never thought of.

29:05 It's just they weren't Wicked or anything like that. That would awake scandals or the wrong place for the wrong place for me. How did you meet Daddy?

29:21 That was funny. I was home about

29:25 Sometimes it's about a year and rosemary and Jack were married and they were living at the Marshall Field Apartments there on Hudson and Jax's come on over to supper. I used to babysit for the Milan and it's come on over to supper and we're going to have some Phil here and I like you to meet him. I walked in Phila standing out in the kitchen. He said oh hi, and I knew I was going to marry him right when you saw daddy and you're going to marry I had to sit on it was such a

30:02 Sort of had you ever thought maybe you'd never get married and I was stuck but

30:21 It's rare to meet somebody who isn't married when you're 30, so what's it look like when you walked in a say he was on his grace and his red vest and his white shirt and he was out in the kitchen. I think either feeding Katie or not Katie to Julie and just laughing with her and you turned and said hi, and I thought he had a red vest on I don't remember did wearing vest but I don't remember anything Jazzy. He always has fredbear. Somebody had given them any award a lot. When was it Exquisite Christmas or he just wouldn't have been a Christmas present in Jax?

31:11 Cuz it's hard for me to think of dad wearing a red vest. He was wearing his red Biz cuz he was always so conservative any of the Fedora or I remember but he didn't have it on he was just in the kitchen. And what's your very best memory of Dad?

31:29 I think when I realized.

31:34 This was a person of incredible honesty.

31:42 I never knew in my life anybody that was this honest. Do you remember a particular keyless almost remember a particular incident where you said? Wow, this is really this guy is so somebody gave him the wrong change. I think that's the first, you know, you would never accept that. Nobody know you did not do this.

32:03 Life remember one time we were in England. We were in Kensington and we passed Saint George's Church, which I had wanted to see because Justin was baptized and married there cuz you love GK Chesterton.

32:21 And on the sidewalk outside the church.

32:26 Bill picked up a 10 pound note

32:30 And he said wow, look at this and he thought we better go in church and put it in the poor box or something.

32:38 But the church was locked we couldn't get in so that afternoon we used to go to Vespers a lot.

32:48 Because you'd always your wonderful singing and it was rest your feet. It's about 4 in the afternoon. So we were going to st. Paul's and they were having a big ceremony of which daddy of course killed himself laughing the children of the clergy and they were collecting for their education.

33:15 And they were all kinds of fancy people learning and all the Archbishop of Canterbury in the Archbishop of Glasgow on all us what did daddy do with that 10lb they were collecting and he takes the money out and holds it up. So everybody can see he's really giving money. He always did he always like to show off a little Denis that a little bit but I was just as it was well, it's getting time for us to wrap up a little bit but one of the things that I let you know in the last part I'd like you to talk about his is John. I know that you and Dad had lots of problems with how sick Johnny was but at first you didn't know he was going to be silk. Daddy knew when you first find out your pregnant with John. Were you really were you excited where you home? We were thrilled to death and then I was teaching at yours.

34:13 And this kid I said put your books away cuz we're having a test and he stood up and he came towards me.

34:25 And I knew something happened to John I was so terrified and I thought he was going to suck me in a couple of the boys in the class grabbed him and put him down.

34:37 And a

34:40 I thought something happened. Do you think you just had a premonition that Johnny was going to be sick or do you think something like that in about 10 days maybe a week before John was born. I had a dream now. I know you're not supposed to believe in dreams, but I had a dream Grandma Kelly had just died and I saw Grandma.

35:03 And she said for Virginia, there's something wrong with the baby, but don't worry going to be fine.

35:12 And a I told mother that Mother's is so everybody has those dreams you always think something terrible is going to happen. Don't worry about it. But she said what did Grandma look like? She looks like him and I said, no she didn't look like an old lady, but I knew it was Grandma and she had this beautiful Paisley shawl on a mother nearly fainted She said you never saw that Paisley shell shocked. She said Daddy gave it to her for their anniversary.

35:45 One year and she wore it for years, but she said they haven't seen it in years either. So she didn't put them when the baby was born and I thought you said gorgeous baby. Remember John was pretty

36:01 And I had a lot of trouble and I almost died John almost died and but we eventually got okay mods and I want to say this because this was Mom.

36:15 She went down and paid the bill it at the hospital at the hospital this we didn't have the money and Bill Head hot my engagement ring.

36:30 To make the first payment at the hospital at the hospital and when he went in

36:36 To pay it. They said or a lady was here and she paid the whole thing.

36:42 Did you know it was Nana or did you have to sleep? Well knowing we're pretty sure who was the lady when you ask Nana. What did she say? You didn't have the money did you?

36:54 That was my soul Johnny Johnny died when he was 13, and he was sick his whole life music his whole life. Did she did you think it was a blessing when he died or do you still wish that? I think he was suffering.

37:08 And I just prayed that it would tie cuz

37:12 What's the point of Johnny suffering?

37:18 So I was a night. I used to dream about him an awful lot. I mean an awful lot and I'm seeing at the beach running but you never did what you never did and I see Johnny. I didn't know you could run I can run I can sing I can talk.

37:40 Anna

37:42 Foods for good dreams those they were wonderful dreams. They wonderful dreams.

37:49 But after a while I didn't have so many more Giver dream about him anymore know your dream about daddy I dream about daddy.

37:59 And I dream that I can read her cuz you can't read anymore. Can you cuz you can hardly see?

38:06 But sometimes I dream I'm in a bookstore and I'm passing the newspapers and I read the I can read I didn't even know it could read. But anyhow

38:19 Those aren't so hot. What is this? What are the things that you you miss the most? What is the number one thing you miss the most?

38:29 I'd say I miss driving.

38:33 And I miss reading could driving give you a lot of freedom to you, but

38:41 I guess we all want to do exactly what we want to do. You have to say you know, what it what I think is funny is when we were kids even though you know, I always knew you loved us as kids. You never seem very happy. And now when you're older and you can't see and you can't walk and you can't hear very well and Daddy's Gone the plumbing school on the plumbing is the lugs are going you actually seemed pretty happy and actually the older you get the happier you get I think the only thing that you ever really miss now as you wish you could go to church every day and you can't do that you'd like to go to church every day, but it does that seem right or am I making that up? No, I think you're right. I think I had a lot of Mama and me I was because Johnny was so sick if you got sick or a Philly get sick. I was terrified. How about you didn't know you

39:42 I worried about because you never would tell me you were sick. You would go in the closet and hide and if I couldn't find you. I knew you were sick and I said she's probably died when you were describing the end of that reminded me a lot of you Mom. You used to beat you were always scared about money. Remember, you wouldn't let us have umbrellas because we would look up at the umbrella and then we get hit by a car. Right right. You never used to let us hit and all the other kids had umbrellas. No umbrella for us. You always had you always head with seem like somewhat irrational fears when we were kids and almost all of those are gone. Now. I do feel like that that you're not worried about stuff. I'm not you don't worry about money. I don't know. It's wonderful. Merry jig face. The bills Billy takes care of the investment. I feel like a free Soul tell me about that. You don't

40:42 When I go back into your room you you seem to be singing a lot and yeah, you like your sis. Wonderful that I get from the library. The books on tape you like the books on tape. I love and his it ever strike you Mom. Sometimes you're kind of when I was thinking about this. It's kind of like you're in on again a little bit. Maybe the nun you kind of wanted to be a nun without any people around cuz you go back and you I do pray the rosary all the time and you read and but I'm worried about money and I think soon and very soon. We will go to see the Lord and I sing soon and very soon. I'll see Daddy LLC Johnny and I'll see Little Joe and never got to see to it. You never you never saw my brother Joe Daddy's home you Daddy?

41:43 What do you get to see me? You're wondering about that, huh? Yeah, and I talked to the boys, you know watch your mom. You're not afraid of dying at all.

41:55 No, I'm not some days. It feels like sometimes you kind of know but I feel I'm going but you kind of feel like is there anything else you'd like to do before you die in a very lucky life, you know, I got to travel a lot. I got to read a lot. I had friends, you know that I really enjoyed very much Joanne and Mary Lou and flowing you were lucky with your friends with me and let's talk one last thing about a really good friend of yours your sister Rosemary my sister Rosemary and I were always very close and you know, am I wrong with doesn't seem you was close as you were when you when we were kids and growing up you think that's true or you're as close as ever. I think she is more freedom than I have.

42:54 I suppose I'm jealous. Are you jealous of me to think that is cuz she can do kind of she can go on the bus and she can go on triel. Yeah, that that's it. That's an interesting thing to think about that the gym you miss Aunt Rosemary that way or you're jealous of Aunt Rosemary. Did you have fun talking about a little bit of it today? Yes, I did because it reminds me of of all the fun things. We did the camping trips in the trips to Europe in I enjoyed it tremendously. Well, thank you for taking time to sit and talk with me and maybe it'll be a beginning of a conversation instead of an end of a conversation. What do you think about that, I think it would be great. I love talking to you. I love listening to you. I must say what we love listening to you even more. Thanks, man. You're welcome.