Douglas Havron and James Havron

Recorded June 18, 2008 Archived June 18, 2008 01:20:54
0:00 / 0:00
Id: NPL000346


Doug Havron is interviewed by his brother, James Havron, on Doug’s 14 year anniversary of being drug and alcohol free.

Subject Log / Time Code

Doug believes he was born an addict.
Doug recalls smoking his first joint: he enjoyed it immediately and it helped his bowling game.
Doug recalls the first time he became aware that addiction ran in his family.
Doug recalls the first time he used cocaine; it was one of the first times he realized something was wrong.
Doug recalls buying dope when his electricity was about to be shut off.
Doug recalls getting into a fight with his girlfriend after watching the movie “When a Man Loves a Woman.”
Doug recalls his first real lesson in rehab.
Doug lists the things he was angry with God about.
James: “A family that trudges together...”; Doug: “...stays together.”


  • Douglas Havron
  • James Havron

Recording Locations

Nashville Public Library

Partnership Type



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00:00 I guess.

00:13 My name is Jim havron, I'm 48 years old and today is June 18th 2008 and we're recording at the Nashville Public Library, and I'm here with my brother Doug.

00:27 My name is Doug Hammer and I am 42 years old. It is June 18th 2008. We are at the Nashville Public Library and I'm here with my oldest brother Jimmy t

00:39 Okay, Doug. You got a birthday of sorts coming up tomorrow. You want to tell us about that. Wow, it's so crazy. You know whenever every year this happens that I do get very emotional and

00:58 What is is tomorrow? The 19th is my 14 years clean.

01:05 All day

01:09 Stepping stone

01:16 Is our tradition Within

01:18 12-step Fellowship set

01:21 Someone will celebrate it and they'll tell their story.

01:26 And be blunt. I've told my story so many times that I thought maybe this year. We do it a little different and we do it story Court.

01:38 Here in this booth and and I could save it so I can pass it on to friends and family and children.

01:46 Great.

01:48 Well, where do you want to start? How how you got there?

01:52 Yeah, let's start missed our guest from the beginning. You know, it's

01:58 I mean in my personal opinion, I was born an addict. I was just waiting for the drugs to show up and probably the first way I acted out.

02:09 We've when I was three or four years old stealing cigarettes and sneaking down.

02:15 Behind the house and smoking until I got sick.

02:20 Then when I was probably I don't know 8 or 9.

02:25 I would go over to my grandparents and visit my father for the weekends and and I would have felt very uncomfortable very it felt very chaotic. And I would I would eat my so much food. I would just get sick. I would literally come home and and I have to throw up because I didn't so much food.

02:49 And that's probably the first places that it started showing up when it really started hitting the road was probably I would say when I was about 13 years old and

03:00 I was driving to Melrose bowling alley to bowl with my older brother Rob and his friends and someone pulled out a joint and said hey, let's smoke before we ball and I was so excited because I was like I said, probably 13 or 14. My brother was 16 and these kids were 17 or 18 and idea of me you hanging out with 17 and 18 year olds and fitting in and being cool was just so exciting and I smoked it and I really enjoyed it. I mean immediately. I really like it and I bowled a really really good game and saw cycle. This is great. I need to do this more often.

03:46 And I'm

03:48 And I did I did I did it periodically and you're sometimes I bowled well and sometimes I didn't and

03:58 I just kept doing it and I think I was probably.

04:04 Much older. I will found know maybe 16 years old. I think I was 16 the first time I had alcohol and

04:14 I never occurred to me that the very first time I drank I mean I got a big old giant cup and filled it halfway with vodka and you know the other half of the orange juice and everybody else got little tiny cups and they drink a little bit and you know, they got sick and I drank two of those cops and eventually, you know just passed out and

04:42 Harley remember it actually, you know how to blackout my first time and we went out and played frisbee football and set Georgetown University and I woke up the next morning and my whole life or just scabs and torn up from apparently I was jumping into trees to get the ball in through Hedges and

05:04 I didn't remember it. I just remembered it was really really fine. And so

05:11 I just kept on doing it and that's what everybody else did and

05:18 You know, I I I felt like it was in my world. My father was an alcoholic that it was very obvious that he was an alcoholic and I like smoking marijuana and in my world my rationale was that at least I'm not an alcoholic, you know, at least I'm not an alcoholic.

05:39 You realize I'm going there if there is other Addiction in the family to did you were you aware of that at that time you think?

05:47 A little not really it never really dawned on me that.

05:53 What addiction was or even the idea that you know, it would run in the family or anything like that? It never really dawned on me. My my soul like reference was really Dad. And and like I said, you know, I consistently said what least I'm not, you know an alcoholic it was years before I started really noticing it and seeing it and other people on my family. I think I was heading when the first times was when

06:24 When we were living with Grandad and he went out and got a whole bunch of beer and just got you. No stumbling. I can't walk falling down puking drunk and I think the legal drinking age at the time was like 19, or maybe it might have been 21. I know it wasn't legal to drink and I've been drinking and he he told me I need to go get a six pack of beer for him. And I said no I'm not going to do it and he said Son either you're going to go get that six pack of beer or I'm going to go get in that car and drive and go get it myself you choose and so I got in his car and I drove and I got him a six pack of beer and brought it back to him. And that was when the first times I was really aware that it wasn't just at

07:12 Trump

07:16 Sorry, I thought up here now.

07:22 I would say I would like to say that.

07:26 Probably the first time I really started getting scared that there was a that there was an issue.

07:32 Actually came when I I start experimenting with drugs like cocaine.

07:37 And

07:39 The first time I mean I was

07:42 Pretty young, I've been 18 or 19 and I did cocaine and I hated it hated. The sensation of thought was absolutely horrible acid. This is just terrible and then

07:55 Couple weeks later a guy said hey, man, you want to go do a couple of lines and I'm very excited.

08:04 And I realize some of my brain cuz that's not that's not good at something wrong there. And I mean, of course I went and did the coke, you know, something in my brain goes you don't like that. You didn't like the feeling why are you so in every light muscle and fiber my skin got excited the hairs on the back of neck got excited at the idea that I was going to go do this drug.

08:31 And I knew full well that.

08:35 You know, I didn't really like it. But I mean I sprinted over there and and no course we did a couple of lines and smoke to join.

08:44 That was probably the first time that

08:47 I noticed that there were sitting out a problem something was going wrong.

08:52 And I think the when the first times I realized.

08:59 That

09:00 I had I had slid into.

09:08 I know what the right word is new a different world in the youth was I had a best friend named Brian cliff.

09:16 I was 22 at the time and he died in a car accident and I was very just I was so sad and

09:28 I got me a big huge Iona what size are gallon containers of Jack Daniels and drank them like in a half a day and I went to a funeral I can hardly remember it I could hardly stand there. I just remembered it was just pain and put the Jack Daniels made it so it didn't hurt so bad clear at the stage then where you're not just making it feel good to drink and to not feel well. Yeah. Oh, yeah, when I started realizing that I was starting to drink to not feel those one at like really clicked in with me.

10:09 That is about not feeling.

10:14 And then

10:17 Afterwards I decide I was I need to get my stuff together man and grow up and I moved to a graduated finally from Brevard Community College and I was going to go to school for state.

10:31 And I'm when I moved my problem course was at all the people around me you use drugstore when I move to Tallahassee. I was going to quit using drugs. I was going to go to school and graduate and get a job at Ford Motor Company and being charge of marketing. That was my goal.

10:48 And

10:52 I was when I moved I didn't take any drugs with me. I got rid of all my paraphernalia. I'm not going to drink I'm not going to drugs mainly not do drugs and within.

11:07 I'm going to say maybe five hours of being in Tallahassee. I found you know, really crappy hotel and I had a bag of dope with me and I'll liquor stores across the street and when I moved in to the

11:23 Apartment that I moved into I saw 3 ft tall bong sitting in the corner and I thought man.

11:32 You know, I don't want to do that and

11:36 And I felt compelled by the situation of no, I need a place to stay and you know apartments are really hard to find.

11:45 And I said screw it and I'm going to I'm going to

11:52 Yeah, rent this apartment and before you know it we were just smoking dope and drinking and that was the first time also shortly afterwards maybe six months down where when just really high as I said, I can't do this anymore. I got to stop and and I express that. It's the first time I've ever expressed. I I can't do that. I cannot get high. I cannot get drunk anymore. I've got to stop this and you express that in the in the guy I was with cuz man, you're really bringing down my but you know, and I felt like a man that you shouldn't do that again.

12:36 For years dead that stage of the game at in and I've been know my story different from yours, but it's also the same and

12:47 Did did you think that you were an Ativan she think you couldn't stop did you think that it was you know, I reached a stage where I was going. I need to stop this but I didn't admit myself what the challenge was. Definitely. I did not know what the challenge was. I didn't understand it. I thought I could just kind of quit and at this stage.

13:12 The evidence and not piled up enough showing that I just was not able to you know, I

13:19 I hadn't.

13:21 I still at when I first vocalized. I've got to quit I still haven't gotten to the point where

13:27 Like three or four months later or another story that really cemented it that something was really really wrong was I would go and buy dope.

13:38 And you're after buying it. I would start having this remorse.

13:43 Guilt and shame I'm not going to do this anymore and you're flush it or throw it away or something of that nature will one particular time. I was very short of money. The electricity bill was due pass to the were cutting off notice that I've been sent and I told myself when I got my paycheck that I was not going to buy that if I was going to pay off electricity of them and

14:10 It's Friday. Beautiful, Florida. I went and got a big bag of dope.

14:17 And you drove away and I start crying and sobbing and felt so much guilt and shame and overwhelmed with it. I threw the dope out the window Saturday morning. I woke up going what did I do? And I drove back into this country road and walked up and down.

14:36 The gutters near the Gully we're literally their beer cans and dead animals and food and everything else and I hung my back and I found it too. By the way. I know I know you tried it and and I go there's something wrong that I'm willing to walk up and down this road from my house with all this trash just to find my bag of dope.

15:03 So

15:06 That's that's when it started beginning. You know, I'm going to quit and that's when I started like hiding the dope trying to hide the dope by myself trying to your switch from your Jack Daniels to beer to not drinking tonight smoking to know if I would go weeks I go mine psycho days all that kind of stuff and it was probably will shoot that would have been

15:34 Maybe a 88 or 99 when that started and it was

15:41 94 when I got clean and

15:46 In that instance, I I didn't even intend to get clean. I had quit so many different times and I was living with the girl and we are breaking up for probably a 10th or 15th time. We could always have these big breakups and somehow get back together and we went out and we were going to go see a movie When a Man Loves a Woman which I thought was going to be a chick flick. I had no idea that the story behind the movie was a woman who's dealing with her alcoholism and addiction.

16:21 And we went ahead Margaritas. I smoked a couple of joints.

16:27 I'm going to proceed to get into a big fight.

16:31 And

16:33 We went up into Percy Warner Park and we're essentially screaming and yelling at each other cussing each other out.

16:41 And I remember so clearly so Crystal Clear. She looked at me and she said can you not be honest for once with me? Just want to be honest.

16:52 And it and it happened.

16:55 I can't explain it. I don't understand it. My world is completely a God thing.

17:02 I was honest and I started telling her about all my self-loathing all my anger all the all the feelings and emotions that been stuck down just start spewing it was you know, Violet almost my body felt violent with how much just like a motion was coming and boiling and frothing out of me.

17:25 And

17:28 And I ended up just laying on the ground a little ball crying and just all I could say is I'm fucked up. I'm really fucked up. I'm just really fucked up. I'm a fucked-up person.

17:38 And I'm

17:40 And I never really entered my brain.

17:43 To ask for help or to go seek help in any way shape form or fashion. And at the time my sister Janet had essentially Banned Me from visiting her and her children because she didn't want me to show up high around them. And and of course I did not like the phone number to cuss her out and never call her like I was doing some damage to her and

18:14 Any enter my brain I need help.

18:18 And also enter my brain that tomorrow morning when I wake up I won't be willing.

18:24 And so

18:27 Am I then girlfriend and I got into the car. We went down to the Shell station on the corner of 65 and Old Hickory.

18:35 And

18:38 And I called her and I said I need help. I need someone to help me.

18:56 The next morning true to my word

18:59 I am outside now. He's just just a bad night. I had too much pressure on me and bye. Bye. Bye.

19:07 Anda

19:09 She said know you're going to rehab.

19:12 And I was like I can't afford it.

19:15 And I worked at Jay Alexander's little waiter and it so happened that I did have insurance and did Cover drug rehab?

19:23 And I want to go to Cumberland Heights cuz I heard they had a driving range. I want to practice my golf shot another additional paid for Vanderbilt newspaper Vanderbilt outpatient, and I remember

19:41 I went in and they did that they're little test or whatever, you know 50 questions. And you know, did you ever learn have you ever thought and how much do you drink and smoke and all that kind of stuff? And I said, yeah, you know, you probably have an addiction problem side cab and

20:00 I drove this.

20:02 Red Ford pickup truck and I remember going outside.

20:07 And I

20:10 Reaching underneath the seat and pulling out my bong.

20:15 And taking a hit knowing that I was going to be able to go to rehab starting Monday.

20:22 And all I could think of was you at least it's going to be different because by that stage I was in so much pain.

20:32 The drugs could not cover it up anymore.

20:36 And my life were so out of control that the drugs can cloud my eyes anymore.

20:44 And

20:46 Just a thought that it was finally going to be different anything and I was totally willing whatever just as long as it's different from the way it was at that moment. I was going to do whatever and so I went to rehab on Monday.

21:00 And

21:03 And I would say my first

21:06 My first real laughing.

21:11 In rehab was

21:13 In my mind, I was coming into rehab because I smoke too much dope Now call didn't really have a issue cuz I didn't really drink that much. And of course, I'd already quit cocaine. So that wasn't an issue and I never done heroin or whatever. So the marijuana was my issue and counselor who I later learned. That was my father's drug counselor and my grandfather's drug counselor. So why don't we do it different? Why don't we just not drink either and I agreed.

21:47 Well

21:49 A week or two in I was waiting tables at Legends golf course and and they had this big.

21:57 International night with head all these different bar beer from French entree be a French beer is in Italian entree BYOB Italian. But German. Try to be German beer and they said they had tons of beer left over in this one guy goes white you would you like some beer and I don't know clean. I don't do that anymore.

22:19 I'm sorry, so a couple hours later, you know, you sure are you know, we got tons of beer then finally about the third or fourth time. He he said are you really sure and I looked up and I saw a red stripe and I said well, I've never had a red stripe before this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to take that red stripe and we'll drink half of it and throw it away cuz everybody knows an alcoholic can't drink just half animal throw it away and then we'll go and tell my drug counselor and that will prove that she was wrong about me being an alcoholic.

22:51 And so I did that. I took the beer I drank half of it. I threw it away. I went in I told her and she and everybody in the room just started laughing at me and I didn't get it.

23:01 And I'm

23:03 It was

23:06 Probably later that day after I screamed and yelled and they told me I had to change my clean date to June 19th 1994.

23:16 That got what my problem was and always had been it wasn't the drinking of the beer of the smoking up the dope. Who's the brain the mind that allowed me to rationalize out. It was okay to drink that beer. That is okay. That is when I get back to me.

23:38 If any addict can get that like spot and their head and that understanding Into the Heart and Soul.

23:45 There were well on the way to actually having no recovery as opposed to just mean clean.

23:51 And that's when I learned my problem. Yo as the saying goes that never was the drinking it always has been the thinking and that's when I got it that you know, it's a yes, it is a physical disease. Yes. I do have physical Cravings once I put alcohol into my system or any other drives. Yes when he goes into my body. My body does like

24:13 Deal with it in different way than quote normal people, but the true issue is is that my brain rationalizes out that it's okay to do that. I'll call in trucks.

24:26 So that was my first major. Aha.

24:30 And then

24:31 I think my second major aha. I wish everybody could get somehow.

24:39 Was how I found God and was wanting to talk to God.

24:43 And

24:45 That is that this

24:49 I got out of rehab and I probably I don't know. I might have three or four or five months. I really don't know. I still very early in recovery.

24:57 And this man came in and I guess I was waiting tables at this country club and he would come in and he would buy like a Coca-Cola and tip $100.

25:08 Or Snickers bar and tip $100.

25:12 And of course I needed money. I was broke and

25:17 Like I worked a snack bar when I went on break. He showed up and took $200. Good morning, right? No, he came in and sat at a table into $200 and then like 20 minutes later. They change the floor in such a way that that would have been my table and then when I got cut at the end of the day I went away and lo and behold he said at one of my tables into tiger and I was so angry.

25:45 I was like, I need this money. I am broke and

25:51 I left so angry and I was going down to my car and I go I'm using I'm going to go get high. I'm tired of this. This is just stupid.

26:01 And a voice in the back of my head said, you know pray once you pray before you cuz I buy says that in the room and so I sat down in my car and I was like, I'm going to I'm going to give God one chance in this in this ballpark the prayer I said God. I really don't believe in you.

26:24 When will give you this one shot or else I'm going to go get high and you need to remove this desire to use right now. If you don't do it screw off and that's it. I'm done with you now do it now.

26:41 And

26:44 I cannot say that the the desire was completely removed, but I can say is probably 75% removed so point it's done to me. It was like someone had punched me in the face and that's when I started going. Okay. Maybe there is a God.

27:01 You know it took me years before I got to the point of going. I'm angry at God and I'm angry at the cards. I was dealt weather is no being really fat and really killed is a boy weather is you know, having a family full of Alcoholics in a divorced family which back then was not okay or whether it was in your being molested as a boy.

27:29 I felt like I've been dealt a really raw deal and

27:35 And I was pissed and when I finally admitted that I was angry.

27:42 Hey God.

27:44 Is when it is like a pop the bubble and I had a sponsor who looked at me and said maybe what you need to do is go find God.

27:52 And so I spent the next couple years working on finding God in right now.

27:58 As I sit here today.

28:01 I love God, I feel in my heart and I pray to him constantly.

28:07 I know I can't say I believe specifically any religious belief.

28:14 Or

28:16 Book or church or anything like that? I don't know if I've developed or whatever to that stage, but I know that I feel you know the power of God in my heart all the time and I pray to him all the time and I feel like he, you know actively participates and supporting me he doesn't.

28:37 You make me do anything. He the proverbial he lets me screw up and gives me back bro. You known if I hang myself.

28:46 He'll be there to let you know kind of giggle and pick me up and Pat me on the butt and send me on my way. I'm glad you say he kind of Giggles. That's an image. I have laughing God.

28:58 So

29:01 I don't know.

29:04 Hi.

29:07 I like going to the rooms of n a and AA and I like the meetings and my experience with the people in there's for the most part. They are very intelligent creative imaginative.

29:21 Honorable people who just happened to be high or used to be high and they're struggling to stay, you know, clean just like everybody else and pay the bills and you have healthy relationships and

29:37 Not take care of their kids just like everybody else. They just need to stay away from no alcohol and drugs to help him in that passion.

29:48 Your life's taking major turn since all of that now you're married have your own business have children?

30:00 That is true.

30:06 I really feel blessed. I am I think that is part of the path of the 12-step teaches us you read the 12 Steps at very rarely says anything about alcohol or drugs.

30:19 Has played like 298 words and one of them is alcohol. So I started I started my spiritual search.

30:31 And one of the things that my spiritual starts let me to was

30:36 An organization Aisa for self actualization

30:42 And if we can seminars and things like that talk about creating the life that you desire.

30:51 And that started me thinking.

30:54 Which sometimes can be a good thing sometimes and

31:00 A sponsor who passed away he would always say two things to me when he greeted me he goes. How was your thinking? And the last thing he would say when he left with don't take yourself too seriously and very powerful beautiful statements for me. It started me looking at my life and it is my belief that the 12 steps are set up at least the first

31:24 Play nine or Saturday to put a person back to square zero where they're no longer living.

31:34 From the wreckage of their addiction per second. And so I stepped in and started making me think about how do I go beyond Step Zero much more and it's starting with the thought process of creating things in my life.

31:52 Deciding I wanted to know be my own boss and have my own business and they supported me in that endeavor. No thing they supported me in as I said after years of working on myself.

32:07 And getting stronger in my heart and soul and I felt an emptiness inside that wasn't God it was woman and freaking corny and consider the source and this guy who's in charge of Isis name is Louise and he said why don't you practice being in relationship? Not that you have to go out and go on a date and be this is the first I'm going to be in a relationship with or is this the person I'm going to be in a relationship just practicing so I started practicing being relationships and dating various different women.

32:42 And I was assisting and doing all this work here in Nashville, and they're also doing in Chicago and they do it in England and Sweden.

32:53 And something came up at my work where I was not going to be able to do the one in Nashville and they said want you do the one in Chicago instead. That's all I'll go to the one in Chicago. And so I went up there for the most part. Everything was the same that is just more people.

33:12 And I was sitting there assisting and I was standing and part of your purpose of being an assistant is to blend into not stand out. And so I was standing in the corner watching making sure I was ready to do whatever needs to be done and someone will share something and I heard this just huge laugh. Just use laugh in the back of the room. Is this young lady. That's an amazing laugh and then later on.

33:47 I know since you was cute and I asked about her. I found her name was Kareem and she lived in Chicago and

33:57 So then our mother was also at the experience and she got up and share something and I heard this.

34:04 Overwhelming crying I turned around and I looked at this girl Crane and I never seen him by cry so hard in my life. Her eyes were swollen snot was come out her nose and I was just like, oh my gosh, this is woman is just so passionate and I need to meet her and I'll Stand in the same with friends Angie and John Garbo and numb.

34:29 And they will push me especially Angie because my thought was well she lives in Chicago. I live in Nashville. This is not meant to be and she kept on pushing me and pushing me and pushing me.

34:41 So finally I went up and talked to her and introduced myself and kind of left it at that when I got home the words, you know, you need to practice you need to practice kept on coming into my head. So I wrote her an email saying that I met her and I would if I was interested in getting to know a better and and that I was going to call it a next day and asked her out on a date and then I was going to ask her to come to Nashville and I would take her out get something to eat in the range for have a place to stay so she won't stay with me and all that cast out. And so I called and apparently Kareem was excited and she informed pretty much all the females in the ice at community and they were all just a guy going and she said she was excited and she came down to Nashville and it turned out she came.

35:30 I think it was like early July and it was the hottest day of the year. It was just weltering hot. And when the first thing she said to me was I really do think you're cute but there's just no way I would ever live in a place like this issues High.

35:49 This is gonna be a great day. And so we ended up.

35:55 Fall in love and get married. So now we've been now married. We're almost at 5 years.

36:03 We got a an amazingly beautiful talented.

36:08 Energetic talkative daughter named Gabriella and we have now developed Sheamus who has just learned that wears toes are and he's just begin to like make noises and he's really cute. He looks like a great deal like Brian cranes brother and I've been told Gabrielle looks a lot like me who does she has that your mannerisms and today we went to swimming class today and it she did a great job.

36:43 So this is 16 years. Did you say 14 14 your tomorrow? So I've been able to watch it from a different perspective synonym.

36:58 Then some might have cuz course I haven't grown up with you and also having had some similar types of experiences and it was it was really interesting after I got into recovery. I live with you shortly while you were still using and it clicked in my head that you're using days were numbered.

37:24 And I've met many people in the program that I'll look at him and think me and I don't know if they can hit bottom without hitting too hard every now and then you look at somebody and go to just about there and I felt you were just about there. So and it was a neat experience for me because at that point time I was home alone family was was

37:48 Going through Al-Anon with me, but

37:53 But it was really kind of neat to watch off that and it happened young enough. So you were able to get your life back and

38:04 Yeah, I get it. I mean what I'm seeing and didn't use a whole lot better than I would have ever hoped for you. So it's it's a blessing for me to watch it. We we hug a lot in the family and part of that's cuz the the programs but we don't always say I love you and I do love you and I'm very proud of you and very very glad for you as you take the next step on the journey. So

38:37 It's cool. It is call. I heard somewhere. Someone say will you call 20 years in recovery and they say it's a good start and and I kind of feel like more years and I don't really have a good start. So I would also like to say that, you know, I really appreciate you know the time to sit here and talk about this and I love you very much and I very much appreciate you kind of showing the way maybe that was you know, the thing that made me go maybe I need help, you know, cuz that's all they never entered my head before. I may be seeing you do it like we're all 100% in it. Now. I mean to know what are lined up and what role mom from a support role is just you know, what a my little stories is that I realized the family was doing better when I'm Friday night.

39:37 Instead of screaming yelling you me and Mom are sitting around together playing games discussing the validity of the 12th tradition. That's pretty intense. Well, I guess that's it. I would like to say real quick. You know that I do I do. I hope to get this copy and give it to my children and in that dumb and maybe someone can learn from it, you know, and I've learned a lot and I really want to thank you for opening up the space and you whoever the powers-that-be to created this shiny little box with microphones. They did a good job, and I'm grateful for it as it is. Good thinking.

40:21 Good thinking. I'm glad you had a good experience. Thank you.