Obaid Barakzai and Blair Johnson

[00:09] BLAIR JOHNSON: My name is Blair Johnson. My age is 18. Today's date is October 27, 2020. I am in Provo, Utah. I'm talking to Obaid Barakzai Barakzai and He is my OSS partner.

[00:29] OBAID BARAKZAI: My name is Obaid Barakzai. My age is 22. Today's date is October 27, 2020. I am in Salt Lake City, Utah. I'm talking to Blair Johnson, and she is my OSS partner.

[00:45] BLAIR JOHNSON: Awesome. Well, Obaid what or I guess what, made you or why did you want to do this interview with me today?

[00:54] OBAID BARAKZAI: Of course, I think first thing is that, you know, like, I really love hearing, you know, different perspectives, especially when it comes to interfaith dialogue. And I think, like, oftentimes, you know, like, people don't actually talk about faith because they think that it's a very divisive topic. Right. And I think, like, I wanted to do the interview to, like, hear more perspectives because I believe that, like, by understanding what other people actually think about their beliefs and their systems and the cultures that they've actually created, you know, through their families, that's educating enough for them. I can even, you know, through learning about other people's ideas, I can learn more about my own belief and also my own system and also, like, what I actually believe in. Not necessarily in a way to, like, compare what I believe in with, you know, like, other people's beliefs, but also, like, in a way to educate more on how the rest of the world actually sees the world differently than I do. And I think I've been always curious to, like, understand, you know, what other people actually think about this world. Like, what are their belief systems? Right. Like, even though I think, like, I find the interfaith dialogue to be a very humanizing topic, especially of, you know, like, what we as humans believe in, like, compassion and kindness and respect and all of that. But I think, like, everyone has a different approach to these topics, and everyone sees the world differently. And I want to know, like, you know, why people actually look, you know, at the world differently. And also, like, just to educate myself by talking to someone who has different opinions than me. So that's why I participated in today's interview and dialogue. So I think the same question goes for you that, like, why did you decide to be part of this conversation?

[02:41] BLAIR JOHNSON: Yeah, I was really excited for this interview today. I am fairly new to, I guess, this kind of new personal initiative to engage more in interfaith dialogue and learn more about people of different faiths or different opinions. And very recently, being blessed with being a part of The Interfaith Youth Corps, especially, just made me really excited to immediately engage in these opportunities. And I was really excited to meet you as well and just meet more people, especially during this crazy time where there's not a lot of that. And so. Yeah. Cool. Are we moving on to our bios now? Awesome. Well, I have Obaid's bio right here. He says, my name is Obaid Barakzai, and I am originally from Kabul, Afghanistan. I grew up as a Muslim, and after doing my own research about the religion and its inclusiveness of everyone, I decided to stay as a Muslim, but this time a bit more educated and willing to initiate conversations with people of different faiths.

[04:00] OBAID BARAKZAI: And then Blair's beautiful bio. I'm the youngest of seven children. There were six daughters and one son. I'm from Cedar Rapids, Iowa. I'm a member of the Church of the Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and I'm currently studying English. One big life event that shaped me was when my brother came out as being gay. Quote, if you have never stood with the oppressed, there was still time left them. This poem by one of my favorite authors, Rupee Car, has inspired me to stand with and uplift those who do not enjoy the same privileges that I do. I seek to uplift those who may not feel seen or included. I recognize the importance of allyship and creating a more inclusive space. I left off from my love, curiosity, and allyship for individuals who may not fit the mold. I want to give a voice to those of minority groups in places of overwhelming majority and be a kind face that can help assist these individuals to have representation. My desire is to be a lifelong social justice advocate. Specific issues I care about. Black Lives Matter, slash, anti racism, LGBTQ plus ally poverty and its influence on the American public education system. As of recently increasing knowledge of and participation in interfaith dialogue. Now would be a good time to ask each other questions about your bio, if you want to. Okay, awesome. I can start. I think, like, I really loved, you know, your bio. I think, like, you were super, like, you know, passionate in terms of, like, you know, expressing your belief system and also, like, what you actually believe in and all of that good jazz. And I think, like, one of the things specifically that I want you to, like, maybe elaborate a little bit more on is that you actually, you know, you brought it up, this topic of, like, inclusiveness of minorities and also, like, allyship. So I'm kind of curious to see, like, what is it in your daily life that you do that would help create an inclusive space for Minorities, let's say that Utah or even Iowa. Right. And also, like, what does that inclusiveness or allyship look like to you personally, if you can elaborate a little bit more on that?

[06:22] BLAIR JOHNSON: Yeah, I love that question. Yeah. So I am currently attending Brigham Young University, and I was super lucky and very happy to receive my current employment, which is I work in our university's Office of Student Success and Inclusion. And our two main student populations are students who are not of Latter Day Saint belief, who are not members of our church attending our university, and then LGBT students in that population. And I think, again, like I said in my bio, this wasn't the only event that affected that, but it was definitely a catalyst having my brother come out. And it was just seeing the pain that comes from those who are of minorities and don't. Aren't they feel limited in opportunities or limited in being accepted by other people? And that was just really heartbreaking to me. So I just kind of like, in, like, in myself making it my mission to make sure that if those people felt that way, it wasn't going to be because of me and wanting to include them more. And I think it's especially at a university like byu, a lot of people are very similar, and they don't necessarily see those who are not like them, and they don't know how to communicate or interact with them. And so that's another big goal that I have, is to help people and educate people on seeing these people for who they are and not trying to make them be like us or try to make them be members of our church, but just listening to them and admiring what they believe. But, yeah, I don't know if that answered your question.

[08:16] OBAID BARAKZAI: It did. And I think, like, you spoke really well to, like, you know, the inclusiveness and also, like, being really honest and transparent in terms of, like, you know, the culture of the school that you actually go into. Like, I went to. I've been to BYU like, four or five times for the Model United Nation competitions. And every time that, you know, like, as a Muslim, you know, person of color, brown, you know, I would walk to campus, not a lot of people would actually look like me. And even those who actually looked like me, they had, you know, different faiths, they had different belief systems, which is totally fine and okay. But, like, I didn't actually feel as included, you know, like, in a community where everyone, the majority looks the same, but the minority looks so different and divided, unfortunately. So I really appreciate you bringing that up and opening up to, you know, understanding what that inclusivity on a campus where everyone almost looks the same. Looks like. So do you have questions?

[09:14] BLAIR JOHNSON: I guess I do. I really liked in your bio when you were talking about after doing my own research about the religion and then still deciding to stay Muslim, I was just kind of curious about, like, I guess, what started that journey or what sparked that, and then what research you went into and just kind of your journey in that.

[09:35] OBAID BARAKZAI: Yeah, definitely. Thank you so much for bringing this beautiful question in. Of course. You know, like, I was born and raised in Kabul, Afghanistan. And then I was born, you know, like, as a Muslim, meaning that, like, when I was, you know, 2 to 3 years old, you know, my parents would actually take me to mosques and they would actually have me read Quran, which is our holy book, and they would do these things. Right, Right. And I think, like, since I was a little kid, like, all of these things turned into a habit that I didn't actually understand what I was actually doing. Right. For example, like, if you want to brush your teeth, you're like, okay, this is nice. You know, I know what I'm doing and understand this helps my body, right? This helps me, like, to stay clean and, you know, like, sanitize and all of that good jazz. But I think, like, for me, like, I was like, yeah, this is nice. I go to mosque, I meet new people, right? But, like, why I'm actually doing this, right? And I was doing this, and it became a habit, but I'm like, why am I doing this? Like, why it is so imperative to, like, you know, go to these spaces and also, like, meet people and do the exact same thing that they're actually doing, right? And then after, like, a few years when I was seven, I was coming across, you know, this meme that said that, like, it showed, like, I think 20 goats, you know, following one another, and then this one goat not following them, right? And I think, like, it spoke really well to don't follow the crowd, right? And I'm like. And just go into, like, mouth with my siblings. Like, did I just do it? But, like, I don't actually understand, you know, like, why I'm actually doing it. So after that, after looking at the meme, I started, you know, like, reading the book. I was like, I need to know, like, what the book actually says and what I'm even saying. Because, like, our praise are in Arabic, or you could also do it in other languages, but it's recommended in Arabic, and we do it in that way. And I was like, what am I saying? And, you know, I Started realizing that, like, you actually, like, you know, say good things about, like, you know, God or Allah, right? You appreciate, you know, like, the greatness of, like, humanity. You appreciate the greatness of this universe and planets and, like, who he is, you know, like. And after that, I'm like, wow, like, reading more about, you know, like, my religion and especially, like, Allah has created a sense of, you know, gratitude in myself that, like, I'm now grateful for the things that I have in life. Right. I'm grateful for the parks that I walk around or that I walk into. Right. I'm grateful for the stars. I'm grateful for the air and atmosphere that I breathe in. Right. It's all a gift. And I think after that, you know, like, I made a really personal connection to that. And of course, I was going through really rough times as well. And then every time that I would go to my balcony around, like, 10 or 11pm you know, sneak in after my curfew, and then I would go in there, you know, I would look at the stars, I would look at the moon. I would just take a few deep breaths and, you know, feeling gratitude. And I think that is something that I learned through, like, reading Quran and also, like, through Googling a lot of these information and also, like, asking questions from our, you know, Mala, who's, like, our chaplain. I think that the right turn, just like priests and, like, Christianity, but, like, we have Malas, they do, like, you know, speeches and all of that on Fridays to, like, the Friday prayers. And I asked them, I was like, what does this actually mean? Like, how I can utilize the information and knowledge that you just shared with, like, all of us and my personal life, right? Like, how I can be kind to my neighbor. Right. And I feel like the week after, I still remember that, like, I went to help my neighbor plant his trees and also water and mow his lawn and all of that good jazz. So it really made a really personal connection to my religion through that. It created a sense of gratitude and also made me to be more inclusive and kind, to be kind and being inclusive to hearing everyone's perspectives and listenings, which told this Day continues to educate me and continues to hopefully, you know, like, make me a little bit kinder each day.

[13:37] BLAIR JOHNSON: Yeah, I loved everything you just said.

[13:43] OBAID BARAKZAI: Thank you.

[13:46] BLAIR JOHNSON: Were there any other questions? Oh, sorry. I was just going to ask if there are any other questions that you had, Obaid.

[13:57] OBAID BARAKZAI: I do have if that's Daniel. So, like, I feel like I really loved your bio, and I think, like, it speaks to, like, Such, like, an amazing, like, open minded, educated, like, individual. So, like, I really appreciate you especially I feel like the piece that you brought up about, like, the LGBTQ plus community and also, like, the Black Lives Matter, because I feel like these movements, you know, like, by now have become so global that speaks to, like, the marginalized, lived experiences of so many, like, and the represented populations and minorities not only in America, but also, like, around the world. And I feel like that is also something that, like, you know, I think, like, I didn't actually expect, you know, like, someone of, you know, like, your faith to believe in because, like, I've lived in Utah for four and a half years. I went to school in here. I lived with six different host families, and I love them all. They're still, like, amazing. And I think I have, like, six of my best friends who are members of the church. But, like, I don't usually, like, when I'm in a conversation with them. Right. Like, I don't usually expect them to, like, start talking about, like, you know, Black Lives Matter movement or the lgbtq. So, like, I'm kind of curious to see, like, what was the starting moment? Like, what was that moment that you had that got you interested to be an advocate in these moments?

[15:22] BLAIR JOHNSON: Yeah, I love that. I think. I mean, first I'll bring up. I was nervous to come to BYU because of that reason as, like, I know it's not a very diverse university, and I know there are going to be people who have very different viewpoints than me, a majority who probably will. But I think. And it's also kind of funny because I say, oh, I'm from Iowa. And so I think what comes to mind for a lot of people are, like, white, conservative farmers is what makes up Iowa. But I am from a very urban part, Cedar Rapids, and I grew up with pretty diverse populations in all of my schools and things like that. And so I think a lot of it helped that that was something that I grew up with. And. But, you know, like, kind of taking a step back, you know, my church population wasn't the most diverse. And so going, what. What's missing here? What's something that I really value that I'm not finding? And it was those diverse viewpoints and people who I was really close to that I just really valued what they believed in. And so I think, especially with, I mean, you know, this pandemic has just really been. I mean, it's just been kind of setting a flame of everything to start afresh, you know, and so I think that was like, looking inwardly and going, what. What do I need to step back and think about what is really important to me? And it was these issues, these movements, because they were impacting people that I really care about and want the best for. And so my friends who are really close to and I hadn't seen, you know, because of my place as a white privileged American, I hadn't seen that struggle. And so once I saw it, it was just so heartbreaking and just really motivated me to go. I can't. I can't reverse what's happened, but I can move forward for myself and do everything I can to kind of make sure that this isn't a problem, which I know I can't solve it by myself. It's not my place to. But that was just something that was really important to me. And same with, like, the LGBT community. I think, especially in my church, it was really important for me to feel. To make it known that I was an ally to these people as a member of the church so that they would know that they're safe with me and that they can be open with me, because there aren't a lot of members of my church who offer the same. And so that was another thing that was really important to me.

[18:17] OBAID BARAKZAI: Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that, because I feel like it also speaks really well to, like, you know, the allyship, you know, topic that you brought up in your bio and how imperative it is to follow a religion. And also, of course, I think at the same time, you know, like, being inclusive to, like, your neighbors, be inclusive to, like, your friends and also recognize the struggles that they're actually going through and, you know, be an ally and basically, like, utilizing, you know, maybe, like, the church resources to actually be an ally to those people. Right, because you have already recognized, like, those struggles and want to, like, you know, fight for them and advocate for them. And I think, like, it's also, like, speaks to, like, in my experience personally, too, that sometimes, you know, like, I have a really hard time, like, understanding. I'm like, can I follow the religion fully? And also at the same time, can I still, like, be a full advocate for this topic that I believe in, that my people of the religion might not fully believe in it, but I believe in this. Right. They also believe fully in my religion. Right. Can I still do that? Like, can I do both at the same time? Right. And I feel like by, you know, years and years of, like, I've been traveling for the past 13 years around the world, have gone to, like, three different schools in three different countries. Afghanistan, Indonesia and Utah. And I think one of the things that I really learned, you know, in my life is how imperative is the intersection of, you know, those belief systems, right? That, hey, like, I really believe even in the intersection. I'm like, I believe in this religion, you know, everything that it says. I'm really inclusive, but I might not fully believe in how people interpret. Interpret, you know, like, certain things in the religion, right. I'm like, it actually asks for kindness, right. It actually asks for compassion. So, like, don't really digress the topic to other places that I tell even my people of my. The members of, you know, like, my religion. And also, I feel like at the same time, I'm like, I still advocate for what I believe in because this is the right thing to do. Right? And I think sometimes, like, even though I think religion is created to bring people together, like, it's, I think, taken from the word relig, which is a great term for, like, bringing people together. But I am like, advocacy is also a kind of religion, right. Even though, like, it's not like a really concrete, established or institutionalized system that we all have to, like, follow. Right. But it is, I think, the right thing to do because it humanizes many of the struggles that we all have in common. And we need to, like, use definitely our privileges to, like, recognize that, to understand the kind of struggles that our friends are going through, our neighbors are going through. So I really love, you know, the intersection of, like, religion versus, like, advocacy. And those are, I think, two things that really, like, humanizes, like, our humanity. I just love the term humanizes because, like, it makes me more human.

[21:07] BLAIR JOHNSON: Yeah.

[21:08] OBAID BARAKZAI: And also, of course, I think that bridge between the two, so.

[21:12] BLAIR JOHNSON: Oh, yeah, I love that. I think that goes along with. I loved what you were saying about how sometimes when you're in your religion or you're surrounded by people in your religion and you're going, well, this is. I. I feel all in. In my religion, you know, I. I believe in all of these things. I practice these things. You're going, but this thing is really important to me too. And there isn't as much value being placed on it. So how am I going to reconcile these two things? And I, like, I definitely connect with that struggle as well. Like, I think just in being around other people and, like, in my religion, you know, I mean, just the phrase, you know, what would Jesus do? And I think there is a coming, a development happening with all these movements of going, okay, things are crazy and a lot of things are happening right now, really think about what Jesus would do, and he would be supporting and advocating for and marching alongside with the marginalized populations. And so I think, like, that can be applied, too, to, like, all religions universally. When these bring people together, what is it about? It's about that unity within these differences that we have in opinion or in belief, because it's about humanity. Is it about, you know, that's the unity that we find, which I think is really beautiful.

[22:41] OBAID BARAKZAI: Yeah, that's awesome. And I think, like, you know, when you talked about, like, you know, when you brought up, like, the phrase, you know, what Jesus would do, I feel like that is, like, super powerful because I think, like, in my perspective, right, Jesus is, like, an undeniable fact that only, like, that makes, like, what we share super, like, trustworthy, right? Because it's, like, a big, really big thing in the religion, right? And, like, people who actually, like, I believe in Jesus. He's one of our five top prophets in my religion, we call him Isaac. And I think, like, every time that, you know, like, you talk about, like, certain things with, like, your friends and all of that, and, like, if they're members of the church or if they're members of, you know, a particular religion, like, of course, you know, like, they believe in Jesus, right? Like, they bring it up. That's how, you know, like, they believe in Jesus. But then, like, when it comes to, like, advocacy or, like, LGBTQ +community or black Lives Matter anti racism, you know, when you bring up the question that, what would actually Jesus do? And I think, like, I brought up the question, like, I think five and a half months ago or something, to my friend who just came back from his mission, you know, from Mexico, and we just started was like, hey, like, what do you think what Jesus would actually do? Like, he was talking about, like, you know, how, like, he was not as inclusive of the LGBTQ + rights, and also, like, how, you know, like, we're born to, like, you know, basically, like, left woman, you know, the men. And also, like, it applies to, you know, women as well. And then I think, like, when I brought up the question, I think, like, he paused and he didn't actually say anything, right? And, like, what Jesus was doing, because I think, like, the way that I recognize Jesus is I actually recognize him with kindness and compassion and respect and all of that, you know, good stuff. And I think, like, when you bring that topic, because, like, Jesus is, like, a very positive topic to me personally, right from my belief system, like, it's all good. Stuff. And when you bring in that topic, you know, people are like, oh, so, like, what can I say, right? Like, we're all humans. Like, you know, we're all, like. We all have, like, different flavors and different, like, you know, favors and all of that. So, like, Jesus, of course, would be like, kite, right? Like a disturb. But, like, it kind of like, contradicts what I just said two minutes ago, right? About, like, how you shouldn't be, right? And I think, like, it goes beyond into, like, the interpretation of, like, how we interpret things, right? How we understand things and how our privileges and lived experiences help us educate the way we receive information and also the way that we share information, right? And I think, like, you know, for example, Jesus, you know, said that, hey, be kind to one another, right? I mean, not only Jesus, but also, like, so many religious around the world and, you know, like, their messengers. And I think, like, what does actually that kindness means, right? And I think, like, a lot of these political leaders these days use those phrases and terms as a way to, like, manipulate, you know, the populations and also manipulate people into believing in only one belief system that. Right, that. Okay, so, like, I'm a priest, for example. Of course I'm not. But maybe like, an example to, like, help clarify, right? It's like, hey, like, I'm a priest. I know the church really well. Like, you know, I've been in this place for, like, so long. So, like, trust me, they're using their rhetorical skills to, like, help you understand themselves and their point of views, not necessarily the religion, right? Because sometimes it really helps me to, like, understand the disconnect. I mean, it's connected, but the disconnect between, like, priests and also, like, a church and, like, church is a very, like, subject, objective thing, right? To me, like, and also, like, it's readings and also teachings and all of that. But then I'm like, when it comes to humans, like, it is impossible for them to, like, you know, stay objective. I like, you definitely there, like, have subjective views. You gotta, like, understand those things. And they're like, no, no, sir. Like, this is not what I'm saying. This is, like, what Jesus said, or this is what God said, right? Like, his. And I think, like, I just kind of, like, you know, disagree with, like, how, like, they think that they fully, 100% represent the church. Like, 100%, you know, 100%. I'm like, that's your interpretation. Like, but let's have a conversation and let's, you know, like, I'm gonna have you to like, listen to, like, what I believe in too, because I'm gonna offer you, like, a different solution. I'm gonna offer you, like, a different perspective. Right. Because I believe that there are a million solutions to a specific problem and none of the solutions are necessarily wrong. Right. I think it is just the people who have different creativity levels, who have different curiosity levels that use those solutions to help solve the problem. And only I think through creating a community where everyone is heard and everyone's solution is shared to a certain problem, we can be more inclusive and we can also be ally and create that allyship around everyone that we interact with.

[27:30] BLAIR JOHNSON: Yeah. Wow. I love that. I think some things that were coming to mind were like, I think what you were saying was really reaching what the beauty is of interfaith dialogue and that cooperation and teamwork that can be found in that. That's how we're going to make the most difference or that's how we're going to be the most successful in this thing. And I think it's not necessarily restrictive to those of faith because there are so many people who don't choose a religion or don't, you know, label themselves with a religion, but they have such beautiful beliefs, like set of beliefs, and such beautiful ideas about serving others and about making a difference. And so I think there's something to be said too for those who are, for example, I guess, Christian, who are like, oh, yeah, like, that's the Christian thing to do. But they're just using that to say, you know, I. This is the faith that I identify as, so I'm going to use this to do this thing. Whereas what. The actual meaning of Christian, which of course is subjective according to people's religion and faith. But, but like, for my example, I guess being Christian is like, well, this person who does not identify as Christian is being much more Christian than you are right now. You know, they're being much more giving and forgiving and understanding and sensitive to these other people. And so I think that's something that's really important and that should be made a priority, which has been really cool to learn as I've been striving to engage more in interfaith dialogue. Because there are so many beautiful ideas and beliefs that are. That extend so much further than the set of beliefs that I've been raised by, you know. So, yeah, I mean, do you. Do you have anything else to say about that?

[29:37] OBAID BARAKZAI: I think that's. That's really beautiful, you know, that you shared that. I think, like, you also basically, like, brought up you know, like, this important point about, like, putting a scale on, like, how much of a Christian you are by doing specific things. Right. And I think, like, that is, like, something. I don't know. I mean, like, that's something that I definitely, you know, like, personally disagree with. I feel like there's no limits to be put on a relationship with you and God or relationship, you know, like, with you and Jesus and all of that. Because I feel like everyone's relationship and interaction with God looks differently. Right. And I think it is okay for that to actually happen. Right. Because through that way, we can be more inclusive. But I think the question could be, like, you know, maybe, like, to hear your thoughts. I'm just wondering that, like, what can we do, right, like, at these young ages to, like, educate people to not put those, like, scales or not to put those limits on the relationship with you and God? Like.

[30:37] BLAIR JOHNSON: Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I think there's something that we are really blessed with in being in this generation is that because of the, I guess, upcoming of these movements and the kind of disarray that we've been thrust into, we've had to adapt emotionally and, you know, socially to different people and different beliefs. And so I think that's something that we can either use as an excuse to be, oh, like, all this craziness, we just don't know what we're doing, or we can use it and utilize it to be. We've been given this gift of a kind of reset. Let's. Let's start over and engage with each other and listen and be empathetic and be sensitive. Instead of going, we just. We don't know. We're going through crazy stuff right now. Instead of going, we're all unified in this crazy stuff. So let's use this to come together and get to know one another and, you know, utilize the beliefs of other people and find beauty in that.

[31:56] OBAID BARAKZAI: I think that's super beautiful. Talking of the beauty. And I think, like, you know, this topic of even. I think beauty speaks really well into, like, you know, the humanity in general that, like, we're all beautiful. It's okay for us to, like, have different belief systems. And I think at the end of the day, like, we need to utilize, as you said, our experiences to come together and recognize our differences, to live in harmony. Right. Because I feel like that is one of the ways that we can make this world more inclusive and then we can have, you know, like, more as allies. And I think a lot of the times, and I think, like, a lot of the times, you know, people don't actually ask questions about these things because it's a very, like, sensitive and divisive topic to them, right? To those people who don't maybe ask questions based on my understanding of my conversations with them. But I think, like, I find this topic to be, like, very, like, unifying and uniting of, like, our belief systems, right? And, like, yeah. I mean, like, do you have a religion? He's like. Or she's like. Or they're like, yes. I'm like, yeah, that's. That's amazing. Let's. Let's then talk about it, right? Like, religion. Or, like, if they don't have, you know, like, a religion, I'm like, that's really cool, too. Like, let's talk about, like. I mean, like, of course, you know, like, if they feel comfortable, right? Then, like, why is that. That, like, you don't, you know, maybe, like, follow the crowd or, like, you don't belief in a particular belief system that, like, so many people believe in, right? And, like, why is it that, like. And I think talking about those things, I think, like, sets an important and imperative ground for us to, like, have a conversation on. And I think our conversation from time to time can be, like, very unifying of, like, our spirit, right? Like, it can also be, like, unifying of even our friendship and also, like, our allyship in that moment, right? Because we have important things to talk about that have, like, usually, in my perspective, good outcomes, right? And, like, when we talk, when you tell me about, like, your atheism, right, or atheistic beliefs, like, you're educating me on your world that I need to be educated on when I share my beliefs about, like, Islam and Muslim, right? I'm, like, educating you about my belief systems. And the good thing about that is that, like, when I go to sleep at night, like, I feel much more educated, right? I feel like there was a missing piece of me that I was. That was missing that I put it in place. That was to know someone else in my community and their belief systems, right? Because I believe in, like, the community really well, very well. And I think, like, I believe that, like, I am who I am because of my community, because of the people that I'm surrounded with, regardless of their belief systems and religion and, you know, political ideas and all of that. I just need to know the place that, you know, like, I breathe in. And through only having conversation, only through having conversations, can I really recognize myself and my own belief systems. Do you have any questions?

[34:50] BLAIR JOHNSON: Yeah, I was just thinking, like, because when we engage in those conversations, of course that's how, that's how we're going to achieve that. You know, that peace of the world and of interactions and cooperation with people. But sometimes that's really hard. And I know like in my experience being raised as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints, sometimes there is like, there's a common thing, you know, in our religion, like from the scriptures, it's like we are the one true church. And so all, you know, missions are all about bringing others unto Christ. But sometimes people have more of the mindset of it's about bringing them into our church because this church is right and it's the only thing that's right. And so I'm just trying to think because I mean I've been really blessed with experiences that have helped me better see the, the importance of, and beauty in getting to know other beliefs and finding the truth in that and not discounting it at all. But I think, I mean I could definitely say like in years past I would have had a different perspective. I would have been if someone invites me to their church, I don't know if I'm allowed to go because their church isn't true. And so like now I have more perspective and I'm more. No, I would love to engage in that experience and I love to get to know those beliefs and see how they can be applied to me. But I'm just trying to think through like how best we can engage in those conversations with people who are more, you know, in finding the beauty in their belief and going tell me more about it without kind of discounting the others perspective, if that makes sense.

[36:44] OBAID BARAKZAI: Yeah, definitely. I think like really amazing points and I think to that, you know, like to share my thoughts. I have like two basically different ways of looking at it. I think the first way is that like who we are actually as humans, like I usually use these examples and some of you know, like my best friends laugh that like for example, I think like we shouldn't be stricted or restricted to only you know, like one set of ideas, right? I'm like, okay, let's talk about food, right? Can you like eat one food for the rest of your life? You know, one kind of food? Unless it's pasta, which is different. No, just kidding. You know, like I'm like, do you want to like eat one kind of food for the rest of your life? And also like I used to blog about tea and all of that. I drink tea every day and I'm like, can you have like one cup of tea every single day. Can you like stay in one place, go to one park, you know, for the rest of your life? I think to me, like someone who likes to, you know, consider himself as a global minded peacemaker, as a global citizen myself, that I am, I think it's hard for me, right? Like, I love all different kinds of food, I love all different kinds of, you know, like tea and all of that. But like, I don't see why it's hard for me to like, you know, like to open up, to understand other people's point of views, right? Because I look at these different things, right? Like, or maybe like my eagerness or you know, passion to like understand these different things, it's very similar thing. And like the way that I love all kinds of food is exactly the way that I love, you know, getting educated on different belief systems, right? I want to keep feeding my brain and my mind through understanding what people are actually going through, right? Just like how I love to, you know, like, feed my body through like different kind of food, right? And I think these are all connected. You've got to like, eat to like feed your body. You've got to like educate to feed your mind. That's how I look at it, right? And I think a lot of people, like very like, I think they try to restrict the definition on faith and belief system, right? They're like, yeah, the only belief that I know is belief in religion, right? The only faith that I know is faith and religion. But they tend to forget about like belief in having a conversation with someone of different perspective, right? Belief and, you know, having a conversation with someone who actually looks at the world, you know, like, differently than actually themselves. So I think I'm like, if you believe in a certain religion, like as a human, as a brother, sister, whatever, I'm like, I encourage you to also believe in the process in which we can start unpacking and you know, our belief system and the process in which we can start educating other people. Like, if you believe in religion, like, as a human, I recommend, I encourage you, I highly encourage you to also, like belief in compassion, belief in kindness, belief and respect to other people's opinions, right? Because I think like, if you don't have this belief system and humanity of like, respecting others and compassion and kindness, I don't think that, you know, those people's like belief systems and like their religion is complete, right? This is, of course, you know, my personal opinion, of course, because their religions, you know, like, ask them to be kind And I think that's what the majority of the religions in the world, you know, like, ask them to do. So, but I'm like, if you want to be kind to your religion, you also have to be kind and respecting other humans, right? That's a very, like, to me, undeniable fact. I'm like, through having a conversation with other people, you can, you know, like, belief in your religion because they're super connected. And I think, like, one way that we can, like, have people, you know, like, come to, like, understand their different belief systems and, you know, getting rid of, like, all the crazy thought that they have is to actually set goals and set outcomes for the conversation that they're about to have. Like, before you leave, maybe like your door, just ask yourself the question that, like, I'm about to have this conversation. Like, what are two to three things that I'm looking for in this conversation? Is this to get to know this person personally, friendship wise, getting to know their, their, you know, favorite colors and beauty and all of that good jazz. Is it that I want to get educated on, right? Like, I want to learn more about their belief system. I want to know who I'm interacting with, right? What kind of beliefs and backgrounds coming from. Or is it that I want to actually persuade them because I'm right, right. And I think the third one is really tricky. That, you know, like, this idea of persuasion that, like, I want to say that, hey, I'm gonna persuade them because, like, that is something that I don't want to have. But of course, rather I want to have this idea that I'm gonna leave my room, I'm gonna educate myself. I believe in compassion, not only in my religion, but in compassion, because that's what my religion actually encouraged, encourages me to do. So I think starting to believe in compassion, starting to believe in having a conversation with other people. And I think starting to believe and setting goals and outcomes is, to me personally, what could help, you know, people to, like, start having these conversations and start kind of over yet build off of what they already have. So I hope that brought some clarity into, like, you know, your questions or like, what?

[41:50] BLAIR JOHNSON: Yeah, I think something that was coming to mind a lot was, like, going in, you know, you were talking about, am I going to go into this conversation to persuade this individual, you know, that tricky bit? And I think that's something that I've definitely experienced a lot, both, you know, in myself doing that and then in others doing that to me, you know, having an agenda to refute what they're saying or what their belief is. And I think. And that's definitely something that I've been guilty of, whether it's been conscious or unconscious. It's just going, well, wait, but this is what I've believed my whole life. So when they share something that's different than what I believe, it feels like an attack, like a personal attack. And so I think that's something that maybe it needs to be taught or educated in terms of, like, having these conversations and having these dialogues of going, what? Just because this person believes something different than you or is different than you is not in any way making you less, or, you know, we are all equal, and their beliefs are equally important to them as yours are to you. And can't you find the beauty in that? Can't you find the humanity in that, that you do share something, even though they're drastically different? And so I'm just trying to think in terms of, like, what we can do to help other people engage in these conversations as well. Because, I mean, in talking to you, I feel like we're pretty much on the same page. Like, we're just both really curious and open to learning about other people's religions and beliefs and opinions. And so just trying to think in, like, how to help people foster those conversations is, you know, looking in and going, I am walking in this conversation knowing that we are equal on all levels and that we can find connection through this thing that's really important to us and through this thing that we're really passionate about. And so I think that's been something that has definitely been a learning experience. And I won't go too much into it because I'm not super educated politically, but in, like, I'm thinking specifically political conversations where I differ from people. It's been tricky for me, and I've learned a lot of lessons in going into those conversations, going, their opinion is not wrong because it's not my opinion. It's just another opinion. And. But yeah, so that was just, like, a thought that was coming to mind as you were talking and going, how am I going to apply this to me and in my life and in helping other people engage with me in the same way so that it can be a productive conversation like we're having, you know?

[44:41] OBAID BARAKZAI: Exactly. And since we have five minutes left. Thank you. I mean, like, I think, like, we're definitely, like, you know, on a very, like, similar page because, like, we believe in humanity, not because, like, we want to be on the same page. Right. But I feel like the belief that we Are on the same page. And we're curious has been led by so many of our lived experiences and reading books and conversations with other people saying, so glad that, like, we're having a very productive and educating conversation. And also, I think to start, like, wrapping up the conversation, I have two questions that I would love to, like, hear your thoughts on. And of course, you can ask me the same or you can ask me different questions that I really love from, like, the roadmap sheep. One of the thing is that, like, do you, like, feel misunderstood by people who have different belief systems than you? Right. If so, how. And I think the second question is, like, what was about, like, my conversation today that surprised you? Right. Like, were you expecting someone, like, who is Muslim differently? Or, like, what, like, how did I surprise you? So, like, these two questions?

[45:47] BLAIR JOHNSON: Yeah, I think to address the first question, I did kind of talk about it a little bit earlier how sometimes there are certain values that I think should be prioritized that aren't necessarily by my religion or individuals in my religion. And so I think with, like, interacting with people of other religions, which I'm actually really used to because I come from a place where I was the only member in my high school of my church. And so it was just like every day, all day, I was engaging with people of different beliefs and different religions and them asking me about mine. And there were some aspects they didn't quite understand or that really didn't make sense. But I think it was. I think it a huge influencer was me walking into those conversations, being open to them that led them to being open to me and finding truth in what I believe, while I'm simultaneously finding truth in what they believe. And then the second question, I think. I don't think there's anything that, like, surprised me just because I was walking into this. I mean, I'll tell you, I am not an expert by any means in the Muslim faith. And so I was just really walking into this, going, I'm ready for anything. But I just. I mean, I had a really, really pleasant conversation, and it was really fun to find how many, like, similarities we had in terms of, like, what we were talking about and things that are really important to us and about your journey and kind of, you know, reevaluating going, like, why do I believe what I believe while still being curious about other beliefs, which I think is really admirable.

[47:38] OBAID BARAKZAI: Yeah, thank you so much. You're super sweet. Do you have questions for me or.

[47:44] BLAIR JOHNSON: Yeah, I guess the same two questions, like, is there Anything that, like, when people. I mean, especially in your interaction with a lot of members of the church living in Utah, do you sometimes feel misunderstood? And then also, like, was there anything surprising to you about me in this conversation?

[47:59] OBAID BARAKZAI: Of course. I'm glad that I picked some really good questions.

[48:02] BLAIR JOHNSON: Yeah, just kidding.

[48:04] OBAID BARAKZAI: But I think, like, definitely I feel like, I feel, you know, misunderstood for sure, by a lot of people because, like, when they think of, you know, like, Islam, I think they start thinking about, like, terrorism. They start thinking about, like, conservatism. You're like, oh, these people are crazy. They're trying to, like, kill us. They're not, of course, open to, like, what we believe in. They're trying to, like, dominate the whole world with their religion. And of course they're not inclusive to, like, a lot of these, you know, like, human rights, Black Lives Matter, I mean, that side, but, like, not necessarily the LGBTQ plus, you know, like, scholarship and rights. And I feel like that is something that, you know, I oftentimes, you know, like, feel misunderstood until I start a conversation with them that how, like, you know, I have a huge ear to ear smile on my face all the time, and how, like, I'm trying to, like, you know, be inclusive to everyone, try to listen to their belief system, try to be kind and compassionate in the process, which is something that they don't actually expect. Because every time that I have a conversation, they're like, yeah, so let's talk about guns or let's talk about, like, war, because that's all you need to. That's all you need, you know, like, you know, but of course, I think, like, my education and, you know, what I've read, I think kind of, like, goes much, you know, like, further beyond, you know, like, these people's assumptions. But, yeah, I definitely, you know, like, feel misunderstood. But I also really appreciated how, like, there's so many similarities between, like, my religion and also, like, the LDS Church in terms of, like, having big families, in terms of community centered, in terms of, like, other things. But of course, I think there are a few things that are, like, really controversial in terms of, like, LGBTQ + rights and also, like, other things and that people, like, start to recognize these days more than before. And I think the first and I think the second question, something that, you know, like, I'm surprised is that, like, every time that I start having a conversation with someone of a different faith, if I know their faith, like the lds, you know, faith, and like, yeah, I mean, like, I'm like, okay, I know that this person is super open minded. I'm gonna, you know, get into this conversation with all my hearts and ears to, like, educate myself on their belief systems and recognize, you know, their struggle and all of that. But, like, I hope when I talk about like, LGBTQ + rights or when I talk about like, Black Lives Matter anti racism, I hope they're respectful if, you know, like, my belief system, which is, I think, like, you definitely surprised me with like, your open mindedness, your kindness and also, like, sweetness of how, like, you have been listening to all of the things that I've been saying without, like, you know, like getting angry or something, especially being a member of the church for my interactions with other members of the church in Utah for the past five years that they're like, oh, let's not talk about it. Right. But I think it really surprised me, like, especially, like, how educated someone is, you know, who's coming from Iowa, being the only person in their high school and then now, you know, rocking the world at BYU with like, all these, you know, like, open mindedness. So definitely, like, I really appreciate that and something that I didn't expect as much.

[51:02] BLAIR JOHNSON: So thank you. I'm glad. All right, well, I think that's pretty good stopping point.

[51:12] OBAID BARAKZAI: Yes. I think you did a really good job of like, I don't know, I mean, Daniel can speak more to this, but like, I think, like, in terms of timing and also, like, you know, each other's, like, response times and understanding and questions, it was all good. I know that there has been like a few questions on the roadmap that we didn't get to ask, like, belief system, political stuff. But, like, we can definitely, if you're on social media, you know, like, we can definitely, like, catch up, you know, like some time and like, talk about.

[51:42] BLAIR JOHNSON: Oh, for sure.

[51:43] OBAID BARAKZAI: That'd be awesome.

[51:44] BLAIR JOHNSON: Yeah.