James Jordan and Diane Hourigan

[00:00] DIANE HOURIGAN: Do you want me to go ahead and read your bio?

[00:02] JAMES JORDAN: Okay.

[00:03] DIANE HOURIGAN: Okay. Retired journalist, mostly worked in small towns across five states from South Carolina to Kansas. Former liberal, but believes in a strong social safety net. Pro gun, pro choice, tighten the border, big safety net, religious person, more orthodox or traditional than conservative. Leans toward academics on religion. I like to write about mental health and spirituality. Big sports fan, University of Tennessee grad, classic rock fan, sort of plays guitar. I love it.

[00:43] JAMES JORDAN: All right. Okay, I'll read yours then. Grew up in Nebraska is one of five children and practiced dentistry in Nebraska, California, and North Carolina, where I now live. Divorced and set in 1975, after five years of marriage and have no children. A couple of years ago, I lost my best friend of 25 years, who became somewhat distant over politics, luckily reconciling not long before he died, admitting that our bond was too strong to ignore. Value my friends, but I need more traveling companions. I could dig that. And I also love to read. Okay, so you like to travel a lot?

[01:23] DIANE HOURIGAN: Well, I do, and I was able to travel some when I was younger, mainly because I was dating a guy that had the resources that we could travel. Plus, he lived in Australia, you know, after he moved back to Australia while we were still dating. So I had the opportunity to go over there a few times. And then with the friend that just died, we did you know, a little bit of traveling together. So I usually could count on him.

[01:51] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[01:52] DIANE HOURIGAN: But now when I really would like to have somebody to travel with, it's harder and harder to find.

[02:00] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[02:01] JAMES JORDAN: And then the type of travel too, I have the same problem. And I'm planning a trip next year to South America to hike in Patagonia. There's not many people wanting to do that.

[02:12] DIANE HOURIGAN: Well, I think that sounds like fun.

[02:15] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[02:18] DIANE HOURIGAN: I just took one to Central America. So it was like Belize and Nicaragua and Guatemala and Honduras. So that was my first adventure, kind of like that. And it was with the travel group, so that helped.

[02:40] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[02:40] DIANE HOURIGAN: They're all 16, so it was really perfect.

[02:44] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[02:47] JAMES JORDAN: Okay. All right. So this is your first time to do this?

[02:52] DIANE HOURIGAN: Yeah, it is. Have you done one before?

[02:54] JAMES JORDAN: I have. I've done two. This is my third one.

[02:57] DIANE HOURIGAN: Oh, cool. Then you're an old hand. No wonder you're not nervous.

[03:02] JAMES JORDAN: Right. Yeah.

[03:04] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, it was kind of fun. So why did you want to do this? What was your motive?

[03:11] DIANE HOURIGAN: Well, you know, my circle of friends, especially Durham is a pretty liberal town where I live, and with my friends, I don't run into that many people of differing viewpoints. And with my friend that passed away, I used to beg him To talk to me about, you know, his views because in all the years we'd known each other, we had never, ever talked politics. So when Trump came along and all of a sudden he was talking politics and I was like, oh, you know, this is new.

[03:48] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[03:48] DIANE HOURIGAN: So and it was Andy's very strong-willed person. So there was no engaging in a conversation. And I explained to him my beliefs one time. and he just brushed it off like that. It was irrelevant, you know? And so, and then he got pretty nasty about it, but he also had cancer. And so there was a time where I thought, I think he must have a tumor in his brain because this is not the person that I know, you know?

[04:23] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[04:25] JAMES JORDAN: And there were some strange things with Trump.

[04:27] JAMES JORDAN: To.

[04:29] JAMES JORDAN: I have no explanation.

[04:31] DIANE HOURIGAN: You know, and with, with my dental practice, I was able to meet a lot of different people. And the majority of them also were fairly liberal.

[04:41] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[04:41] DIANE HOURIGAN: Although there were a few there. I remember one conversation with one gentleman, and he was, I just thought the world of him. He was the nicest guy. And it came up one day because I tried not to talk politics, of course, and he brought it up. But, you know, I can't stand Trump, but I really like his policies, so I'm gonna vote for him. And I was so shocked. And so, but we had a really wonderful conversation. And at the end of it, he was like, well, I don't know. I think we could be president and vice president. And I said, As long as you're president, and I'm vice president. He goes, oh, no, no, no, I want you to be president. So we ended up just laughing about it. And so that's the kind of, that's the kind of conversation I want to have, you know?

[05:27] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[05:28] DIANE HOURIGAN: How about you?

[05:31] JAMES JORDAN: Well, of course, I was a journalist, so I was a liberal by default, right? I mean, we were, you know, but I've kind of just kind of, I guess I've just gotten too disillusioned with the Democrats and liberals and. you know, just kind of feel like now, I was like, well, let's give Trump a chance, see what he can do, you know? You know, I don't like him and I wouldn't vote for him, but he's there. Why not just give him a chance and see what happens? And I don't know. I get grief for that.

[06:10] DIANE HOURIGAN: Well, I mean, I can. I can understand that. And I've been trying to think of.

[06:14] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[06:15] DIANE HOURIGAN: Okay. what is really good about this that I can support. And I'm having a hard time finding it, to be quite honest with you, mainly because I, being a dentist, of course, I believe in science and education and.

[06:30] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, right.

[06:33] DIANE HOURIGAN: And so some of the things that they're doing, I'm really concerned that how are younger people ever going to know what's true and what's not true.

[06:43] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[06:44] DIANE HOURIGAN: You know, I'm deeply worried about that.

[06:47] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[06:48] JAMES JORDAN: And with AI, reality is becoming a mystery.

[06:53] DIANE HOURIGAN: Well, exactly. Because I've noticed that my Google searches are just not very accurate sometimes. If I'm searching something that I know a little bit about and I see something and I know it's not accurate, I'm just like, yeah, why am I even reading this?

[07:08] JAMES JORDAN: You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[07:11] DIANE HOURIGAN: I wouldn't know it. I would take it as the truth.

[07:14] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, I I'm pretty skeptical on everything, you know? It's like, okay, what?

[07:19] JAMES JORDAN: What?

[07:20] JAMES JORDAN: The old thing in journalism is, why are you telling me this? What is your motive? You know, and, you know, and, and I always believed in two sides of the story, and we're just not getting that anymore, you know? I mean, we just, we, in the news, it's not giving us both sides of the story or. whatever, you know, we're only getting one side, and I don't like that, but. So it's hard to know. It's hard to know what the truth is, you know? Like, I I knew a guy who was a security officer on the border, you know, and what he told me is nothing at all like what's in the news. And he has no reason to lie to me, you know?

[07:58] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[07:58] JAMES JORDAN: You know, I mean, his.

[08:00] JAMES JORDAN: What?

[08:00] JAMES JORDAN: And he wasn't a news guy. He was just a guy working their security, you know? But so yeah, I mean, we just don't, I'm getting to where we just don't know the truth anymore. Exactly right.

[08:12] DIANE HOURIGAN: See, and when I was in California and I worked at a dental clinic that provided dental services to children that were immigrants, or they could have been illegal, we didn't ask. And we did it at a really, really reduced rate because the most important thing is we were wanting them to be able to go to school without having tooth problems, you know, because if you've got a toothache, you can't concentrate on your studies. So I found those kids to be the most delightful, obedient, wonderful, polite kids. I mean, I just fell in love with them. I mean, I was just blown away about how nice they were and how much they valued what we were doing for them. And the few American kids we got were just difficult to deal with. And it was a huge shift. So that was the first time I'd ever been exposed to anything like that. And it was quite enlightening to me.

[09:21] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[09:21] JAMES JORDAN: That was in California.

[09:24] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[09:24] DIANE HOURIGAN: Yeah. So what made you curious about. How did you get involved in journalism?

[09:32] JAMES JORDAN: Well, I had a hefty case of 80 ADHD and didn't know what it was then. And, you know, I got through college and like, well, what am I gonna do now? And I just got a job at a newspaper, you know, but. But I was an English, English and creative writing major in college and. wanted to be a great author, you.

[09:51] JAMES JORDAN: Know.

[09:53] JAMES JORDAN: And, yeah, that, that you can't get a job doing that. So I ended up in journalism that way, and then I liked it. And I'm working on a Memoir about, about that because I had real raging ADHD then, and I, I would be either the greatest journalist you ever saw one day and the worst you ever saw the next day. and I didn't know which day it was going to be either, you know, you know, or I just wouldn't show up, you know, I mean, and.

[10:25] DIANE HOURIGAN: Oh, wow.

[10:26] JAMES JORDAN: And everybody thought I was so scatterbrained, and I guess I thought so, too, but, you know, but just writing about that, you know, and I struggled. My first four or five years, I went through a job about every year. I was able to interview well, though, and I could usually get a job if I could get the interview. you know, because I could interview well, but when I got there, I would make stupid mistakes and forget things and just be absent-minded and. Or I would turn in a prize-winning story. You just didn't know which one it was going to be.

[11:00] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[11:01] JAMES JORDAN: That's kind of how it got started.

[11:05] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[11:05] DIANE HOURIGAN: See, when I was in high school, I always thought I wanted to be. Be a journalist, you know, worked on this. the school newspaper, you know, but then, then life got in the way, and I never did pursue that.

[11:19] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, you got a real job.

[11:23] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[11:25] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, yeah. I finally figured out some things that worked for me and kind of managed to pull it together that way. You know, like, I don't do well under a micromanager or. that kind of thing or. And, and I need a big, heavy duty workload, you know?

[11:42] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[11:44] JAMES JORDAN: And because if I have distractions, I'm in trouble. But, but, yeah. So then, yeah, I kind of worked it out that way.

[11:54] DIANE HOURIGAN: And, and so where did, where did you, where did you grow up?

[12:00] JAMES JORDAN: East Tennessee, the very mountains, very far eastern mountains. beyond Knoxville. Our, at the top of the ridge, on top of where we lived was North, North Carolina. So we were that far east, up in the mountains. And I went to Tennessee, you know, typical fashion. I got out of high school and hadn't started looking for a college yet, you know, of course. And so I just enrolled at UT and went from there, you know, and. and I had a great time there and ended up in Arkansas for a while, and that was interesting and probably good. I ran into an old school, tough editor who, he really helped me a lot. He helped me get focused and, you know, that kind of thing, and just really, really kind of Coach, coached me hard, so to speak.

[12:52] DIANE HOURIGAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[12:56] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, then South Carolina, then brief stint in Texas and now Kansas. Retired a couple years ago.

[13:06] DIANE HOURIGAN: And so are you in, are you in Tennessee now or Kansas?

[13:09] JAMES JORDAN: No, Kansas now.

[13:12] DIANE HOURIGAN: Okay, I thought so. See, I'm from Nebraska originally.

[13:15] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, yeah. Were you around Omaha or?

[13:20] DIANE HOURIGAN: Well, I was kind of in the, in the middle of the state. I grew up in York, so it's about West a couple hours.

[13:28] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[13:29] JAMES JORDAN: I spent some time in Arkansas.

[13:32] DIANE HOURIGAN: Yeah, I'm a big University of Nebraska football fan, you know?

[13:36] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[13:36] JAMES JORDAN: Did you, did you go to Nebraska?

[13:39] DIANE HOURIGAN: Yeah, I did.

[13:41] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[13:41] DIANE HOURIGAN: I started off my first year of college. We lived just cat a corner from a junior college that was real small and a Christian college, and I got a scholarship there. And so once I could stay at home, I went to there my first year. But yeah, they were so strict that, you know, they didn't believe in dancing and the girls couldn't wear slacks. And even though a lot of my good friends were belong to that church, I just had a really hard time going to school there. It was just, yeah. So at that time, then my family dentist called me up after my first year and said, would you come work for me as a dental assistant? So I was so disillusioned with college that I said yes and started working for him. And then I wanted to, I got married, wanted to get a divorce, didn't know how to support myself. So I decided I wanted to go back to school and become a dentist. So then when I did, I went to the University of Nebraska at Lincoln and got my education.

[14:46] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[14:46] DIANE HOURIGAN: So that's all that turned out.

[14:51] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[14:51] JAMES JORDAN: All right.

[14:52] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[14:53] JAMES JORDAN: So you were divorced before you went to dental school?

[14:58] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[14:59] DIANE HOURIGAN: Because he had said, well, if you go back, if you go to school, you can become a teacher, but that's it. You can't do anything else. Oh, and I was like, but I don't, I don't want to be a teacher. Yeah, that's all I'm gonna do. So need I say more?

[15:16] JAMES JORDAN: Right, right.

[15:18] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[15:19] JAMES JORDAN: Really?

[15:20] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[15:21] JAMES JORDAN: Well, are you very concerned about politics? How important is that to you?

[15:29] DIANE HOURIGAN: You know, it's become very important to me. My whole life, I've never paid that much attention to it. And I voted Republican, I voted Democrat.

[15:37] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[15:38] DIANE HOURIGAN: You know, I always, I probably didn't really pay attention to issues as much as, as the person. So I thought if they were a decent human being, that's all that really mattered, that they would care for people and take care of people. I mean, that's just.

[15:51] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[15:51] DIANE HOURIGAN: My nice people will believe you.

[15:54] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[15:56] DIANE HOURIGAN: So then, yeah, it wasn't until Trump that I became really, really interested. I had some other friends that kept trying to get me interested in it, and we'd have a few little debates about people, but. it wasn't ever a serious conversation that I really knew that much about, you know?

[16:12] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[16:13] DIANE HOURIGAN: But now I've become really, probably more involved in it than I should for my own.

[16:20] JAMES JORDAN: Oh, yeah.

[16:21] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[16:22] DIANE HOURIGAN: So I try to.

[16:24] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[16:25] JAMES JORDAN: It's kind of interesting that I've, I've kind of become less, less interested in politics because I, I, I, I covered State, state governments, state house. in South Carolina and in Kansas. And I really enjoyed that. I enjoyed that reporting and that and, and I, but, but then it worked. I mean, the system worked. You had Republicans and Democrats working out deals and, you know, I, I'd go to lunch with them. Be, they'd both be at the table and they'd work out a deal, you know, next day it passed, you know, but, yeah. And now they don't even speak to each other. You know, it's just crazy.

[17:00] JAMES JORDAN: I know.

[17:01] DIANE HOURIGAN: I know. I just, I don't, I don't get that. That's not why they're there. I mean.

[17:06] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[17:06] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[17:09] JAMES JORDAN: I mean, I was, I was a big Obama fan. I think he's probably the best president we've had in a while. And, you know, but, but I don't know. It didn't go well after that.

[17:21] DIANE HOURIGAN: I know. I, I totally agree. I was so excited, you know, when he came. but, man, it sure turned.

[17:30] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[17:30] DIANE HOURIGAN: Turned down in a hurry.

[17:33] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[17:34] DIANE HOURIGAN: Which is surprising because I, I fully still believe that most people are in the middle, you know? I mean, I think.

[17:42] JAMES JORDAN: Oh, yeah.

[17:43] DIANE HOURIGAN: Few on either side, but they're very vocal.

[17:46] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[17:46] DIANE HOURIGAN: You know, but, yeah, I think about the people that I know in Nebraska. I, they're not, they're not radical. I mean, we agree on a lot of. a lot of things.

[17:55] JAMES JORDAN: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think most of us are in the middle, and the extremists are controlling the debate. And I think the media has a lot to do with that because, yeah, that's what sells papers, you know, or gets clicks now, you know?

[18:10] DIANE HOURIGAN: Well, yeah. So, so do you feel like then that it's the, the, I mean, hasn't, has media always been about money or has that come lately, too?

[18:21] JAMES JORDAN: Well.

[18:22] JAMES JORDAN: I think it's always been about money, but I think it's got worse. It's just gone into overdrive, you know, you know, because it's always been about money, but, but they did used to be some principle there, you know.

[18:37] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[18:37] JAMES JORDAN: And something that's not talked about much, and I've seen it firsthand back in the 80s and 90s, these big corporations bought up all the small family newspapers. you know, and they don't exist anymore, pretty much. And that was, that was the basis of it all, you know? And now just a few companies control all the media, you know? And like, like even papers I worked for would go from a six, six day daily down to a weekly, you know, and go from 30 people down to two people, you know, with no resources. You can't even do your job because you don't even have resources to do that. you know?

[19:17] DIANE HOURIGAN: Yeah, that just, it makes me sick.

[19:20] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, and that's had the, I think that hurt newspapers more than the internet did, really. You know, that's just my take on it. But, you know, but yeah, and now it's just about, it's totally about money now. I mean, it's just, you know, about sowing division, you know?

[19:39] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[19:40] DIANE HOURIGAN: I don't remember what grade I was in, but one of my teachers in grade school, Our assignment was that every day we had to read one article on every page of the newspaper.

[19:54] JAMES JORDAN: Oh.

[19:54] DIANE HOURIGAN: So of course our local newspaper wasn't that big, but it was a daily, you know? And so, I mean, I just did that religiously. Every day I read an article, you know?

[20:05] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[20:06] DIANE HOURIGAN: Greatest gifts that she could possibly have given us because I've always grown up valuing the newspaper and thinking it was so important. And it wasn't until I moved to North Carolina that I stopped getting the physical paper and, and subscribed online instead.

[20:25] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[20:25] DIANE HOURIGAN: You know, but my preference would be to have the physical paper.

[20:29] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[20:29] JAMES JORDAN: Oh, yeah.

[20:30] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[20:31] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[20:32] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[20:32] JAMES JORDAN: And, you know, now with the national news, it's just so, I mean, I see it just such blatant bias. I mean, even, even the, the mug shots. You know, like you have a story about Trump and you'll have a picture of him there. Every day, CNN makes him look like a raging idiot. And of course, Fox makes him look like a cool guy. And just reverse on the other way, you know. And that's bias. That gets into people's subconscious, you know. When you watch CNN, you see Trump as this raging maniac in his picture. What are you gonna think?

[21:08] DIANE HOURIGAN: Exactly.

[21:09] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[21:11] JAMES JORDAN: And people talk about fact checkers, but I don't think the issue is facts. I think the issue is how you spend the facts or how you cook the books.

[21:23] DIANE HOURIGAN: Say that again. I'm sorry, I cut out a little.

[21:25] JAMES JORDAN: It's how it's, I don't think the facts are the problem. It's how you present the facts and how you cook the books, how you plant it. you know, and.

[21:35] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[21:35] JAMES JORDAN: And I just see that and I just. I don't even watch news anymore. I'm just done with it, you know?

[21:42] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[21:43] DIANE HOURIGAN: And you're probably better at weeding that out than I am because of your background.

[21:48] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[21:48] DIANE HOURIGAN: You know, I mean, I sometimes, but sometimes I don't. I'm sure I don't because I'm just reading and not thinking.

[21:56] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[21:57] JAMES JORDAN: That much.

[21:57] JAMES JORDAN: Right. Yeah.

[21:58] JAMES JORDAN: You know, they'll say things. you know, they'll say things like banned books, you know, but a banned book would be illegal. And there are none, you know, I mean, there are no banned books, you know, or. Or just the phrasing they use, you know, like, you know, and. And that just makes me crazy, you know?

[22:25] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. And.

[22:29] JAMES JORDAN: In rural Kansas. It's kind of like, it's like a Kansas shut out the world. It's like, I really don't care about what's happening in Washington.

[22:38] DIANE HOURIGAN: Yeah, that. Well, that's easy to do, you know, that's kind of like being in Nebraska. You can shut it out.

[22:44] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[22:45] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[22:45] DIANE HOURIGAN: Live your life.

[22:47] JAMES JORDAN: Were you in a small town in Nebraska?

[22:50] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[22:50] DIANE HOURIGAN: When I grew up, it was. I think it had, like, a little over 6, 000 people in it. But then there for a while, I lived in a town of a thousand people.

[23:01] JAMES JORDAN: Wow.

[23:02] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[23:06] DIANE HOURIGAN: So, yeah, I've lived in the really small. And then in Lincoln is fairly.

[23:11] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, that's pretty big.

[23:12] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[23:14] JAMES JORDAN: I have to, you know, I lived in Columbia, South Carolina, which is the state capital. and here, a town of 10,000 and there's another town of 10,000 20 miles away, you know, so. But, yeah, it's not that remote.

[23:29] DIANE HOURIGAN: No, it isn't. No, and you're right. It's not. I'm thinking of rural.

[23:36] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, it's still. Because I know I met this guy who had moved here from West Kansas and he was like, I feel like I moved to a big city.

[23:47] DIANE HOURIGAN: Yeah, it's all relative, isn't it? Well, yeah. And then when I lived in California, I was living in Santa Barbara, but I traveled a lot. And so, you know, I was in LA a fair amount and having to drive back and forth from LA to Santa Barbara and all around it, so. having rush hour traffic was something I'd never had to contend with. And when I moved to North Carolina, they said, oh, because I remember I had to drive into Raleigh one day for something, and they said, oh, you don't want to go at that time because the traffic's really bad. And it was the only time I could go. And I'm like, this is traffic.

[24:29] JAMES JORDAN: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I could tell, like, how I've adjusted, because the other day I was trying to turn out of a parking lot and I had to wait like 30 seconds and I was complaining, you know, I was like, wait, what? You know, all this traffic.

[24:51] DIANE HOURIGAN: It's funny how your perspective changes, isn't it?

[24:54] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had to wait a minute before I turned left into Walmart.

[25:01] DIANE HOURIGAN: Yeah, yeah, right, right. Well, my sister and I laugh when I go into town. One of the first things we always do is stop into Walmart because there really isn't much else to do.

[25:12] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, yeah. My son lives in Houston and when we go to visit him, it's a different world, you know? It's like, oh my God, this traffic.

[25:25] DIANE HOURIGAN: So how many kids do you have?

[25:28] JAMES JORDAN: Just one. And he lives in Houston. he's a computer guru.

[25:34] DIANE HOURIGAN: Oh, that's good to have.

[25:37] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, yeah. He writes software, so I don't even, I don't even know what he does.

[25:45] DIANE HOURIGAN: Yeah, yeah.

[25:48] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[25:51] JAMES JORDAN: But, but I, I, you know, the politics thing, I find myself getting more conservative. I don't know. I guess they say you get conservative as you get older. Maybe it's true. I don't know. But, you know, but the extremists are controlling the debate. Like, I was talking to people on here about gun control, you know, and they say they're anti-gun and I say I'm pro-gun, but we agree.

[26:16] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[26:16] JAMES JORDAN: I mean, it really wasn't a disagreement at all, you know?

[26:21] DIANE HOURIGAN: Well, I know, see, and that's an issue. that's an issue. I mean, I lost one of my good friends over that because I made some flip comment one time about, oh, something. It was, I think it was right after Sandy Hook or something. And I, and I think I made a comment like, oh, if, if every politician had one of their kids shot, you know, maybe we'd get some decent gun laws in or something like that. And she just, yeah.

[26:48] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[26:50] DIANE HOURIGAN: At the time is that she had, somebody had attempted to rape her one time, and there was a guy around that had a gun and was able to chase the guy away. I don't know if he shot at him or if, you know, what happened. She is totally a believer that everybody should be carrying a gun. And I, I can. I grew up more like, you know, there for hunting, you know, because that's what my brother.

[27:20] JAMES JORDAN: Exactly.

[27:21] DIANE HOURIGAN: You know?

[27:22] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[27:22] DIANE HOURIGAN: So I'm kind of like now North Carolina is wanting this law that anybody 18 and older can carry a concealed weapon without a license.

[27:35] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[27:36] JAMES JORDAN: That's.

[27:36] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[27:41] DIANE HOURIGAN: Developed yet, you know, and then you have a license to drive a car. Why wouldn't you have a license to have a gun?

[27:49] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, you have to have a license to do anything. You know?

[27:54] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[27:55] JAMES JORDAN: I mean, I'm all for all the laws and regulations, you know? I mean, yeah. Or like, if people don't like I was talking to somebody didn't he didn't want to register his gun, you know? And of course, you know, I don't know. I didn't really understand why you don't want to register your gun. gun, you know, because he didn't want the government to know about it.

[28:16] DIANE HOURIGAN: It makes sense to me.

[28:18] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, as long as the media, too, is pushing this division thing, I mean, because really, I think we do agree. It's just that we get the extremists controlling everything and, you know.

[28:33] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[28:33] JAMES JORDAN: On the guns, most of us agree that you know, just have some regulations, you know, and control it.

[28:41] DIANE HOURIGAN: So what happens to politicians that they pay attention to the extremes rather than the middle?

[28:49] JAMES JORDAN: I guess that's who's paying them, you know, it's, I mean, it goes back to the money, you know?

[28:54] DIANE HOURIGAN: Yeah, you're right. You're right.

[28:57] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[28:58] JAMES JORDAN: Who's your donor, you know? I mean, yeah. I don't know. I don't know how to get money out of it, but maybe just more transparency, you know?

[29:08] JAMES JORDAN: But. Yeah.

[29:10] DIANE HOURIGAN: Well, I think. I think the Supreme Court made a huge mistake when they said corporations were people.

[29:16] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[29:16] DIANE HOURIGAN: So, you know, money into politics. I mean, that was.

[29:19] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[29:21] JAMES JORDAN: Then you give. Give corporations freedom of speech.

[29:24] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[29:24] JAMES JORDAN: That's pretty crazy.

[29:25] DIANE HOURIGAN: Yeah.

[29:27] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[29:28] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, I remember that.

[29:29] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[29:31] DIANE HOURIGAN: So what made you so disillusioned with the, with the Democratic Party? I'm curious about that.

[29:38] JAMES JORDAN: Well, well, one thing I, I was, I was also a sports writer for a long time, and I love sports and I love women's sports. Okay. I covered women's college sports and, you know, and the idea that men can become women and then they could compete with women in sports was just kind of a death nail. It was like, no, we can't have that. It's just not fair. And just that, just the extreme, that kind of extremity, you know, and like, and then that thing is, well, if you don't agree with us, you're evil sort of thing, you know, like, if you don't vote for this black woman, you're a racist, you know, I mean, come on. Or, or we're all right. We're all racist, whether we know it or not. this, the CRT thing, you know, those things just kind of made me think, no, you know, so. So I I don't, I don't have a party now.

[30:34] DIANE HOURIGAN: Yeah, I don't, I don't, I'm not sure exactly where I stand. I guess I would call myself, if I had to choose, I'd call myself a Democrat.

[30:41] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[30:42] DIANE HOURIGAN: That's how I voting, because right now. It would take an awful lot for me to vote Republican. Yeah, yeah.

[30:49] JAMES JORDAN: And I don't agree with the Republicans either, you know?

[30:52] DIANE HOURIGAN: You know, I just can't see that. And another thing that's influenced me is being here in North Carolina. I've had the opportunity, oh, I guess I had some of this on Nebraska, but I've had the opportunity to be in some situations where I was the only white person.

[31:14] JAMES JORDAN: Right. Yeah.

[31:15] DIANE HOURIGAN: And it never happened to me in Nebraska, so.

[31:18] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, yeah.

[31:19] DIANE HOURIGAN: It's, it's, I, when it, when it kind of dawned on me that, oh, I'm the only one here.

[31:26] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[31:28] DIANE HOURIGAN: Oh, well, that's, that's interesting. And it, and I wasn't saying, I wasn't afraid because I was with people that I knew, you know, but, but it was just like, there's just. There's just a lack of familiarity or something. Yeah. You know, you don't quite belong in there.

[31:47] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[31:48] DIANE HOURIGAN: So this is what it's like if you're black and everybody else is white.

[31:53] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[31:53] DIANE HOURIGAN: It has to be this kind of like. I. I don't quite. I don't quite belong, you know, because you're not like me, you know? I mean, even though you are like me.

[32:03] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. yeah. Yeah.

[32:05] DIANE HOURIGAN: And like, I was just talking to one of the guy that used to do a lot of custodial work in our building, and he was like, you think this melanin makes, melatonin makes any, melanin makes any difference? Like, I'm just the same as you. It's just that there's this thing here. And I said, but it's visible. I guess, well, yes, it is visible.

[32:27] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[32:28] DIANE HOURIGAN: So we had a really interesting conversation in his perspective. looking at America and how America is. And he goes, you guys have this idolized view of it. And he goes, looking back at it, it's not like you think it is. And he goes, and I came here for opportunity. And he goes, but I see it for what it is. You know, there's a lot of stuff that's not a little idolized thing that you have in your brain about it. But he goes, I accept it. You know, I don't fight it. so that was an interesting conversation.

[33:01] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[33:02] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. But when I first went to Arkansas, I had not been around black people much, and I went to this, some little, some games at some little schools, you know, like out in the Delta, and I was pretty much. But I was with the papers. I was kind of, I was kind of cool and accepted, and they, they all, they all wanted me to. you know, they all wanted me to have a good time, but it that way, you know?

[33:30] DIANE HOURIGAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[33:32] JAMES JORDAN: But, yeah. So, you know. But, yeah, I mean, it's a lot. It's all the complicated, but, like, with Republicans, I, I don't agree with most of their stuff, you know? I mean, their obsession with small government, they're, they don't want to help poor people, but they want to help rich people, and they think that will help poor people. I mean, that's, that's just crazy, you know, and. so there's a lot of craziness on both sides.

[33:58] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[34:00] DIANE HOURIGAN: I, I definitely agree there. When I was in Mike, I don't know if it was Honduras or which of those countries, but we had lunch with a family there in their home, which was really very kind of a primitive style home. And there was a little open fire that we were making tortillas on and all this stuff. And the guy there, the head of the household, he was. He had had an education because of USAID. He was able to get an education. And then he came back and he was kind of looked at as an elder of the community. And so he got really involved in the community and that sort of thing. And so he was so grateful for this opportunity. And that was right when they had cut off USAID. And I was like, yeah.

[34:48] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[34:48] DIANE HOURIGAN: Oh, I don't know what you're doing. And I've never appreciated ever, but more than I do now for all the things that they have done like that, that we're just.

[35:01] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[35:01] DIANE HOURIGAN: Obvious to.

[35:03] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[35:05] JAMES JORDAN: I don't. I don't understand that cut mentality either. I mean, I just. They want to cut everything, you know? And of course, that thing that always bothered me. me was, you know, some guy on food uh, f a, food sta.

[35:22] JAMES JORDAN: Co.

[35:22] JAMES JORDAN: With it, I mean, come on I mean I mean, that's just ridiculous I mean and if you've ever bought groceries you know it costs more to eat healthy. You know, if you just buy fresh meat and fresh vegetables it's going cost more than frozen dinners. You, it's just crazy. you know, I mean, I don't know. I think we should.

[35:43] JAMES JORDAN: I think.

[35:43] JAMES JORDAN: I think the government should take care of people, you know? I mean, I really do, you know? I mean, that, you know, and I don't. To me, I don't care if some guy wants to live on welfare and not do anything. So what, you know?

[35:57] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[35:57] JAMES JORDAN: I mean, I don't know. I don't care, you know?

[36:00] DIANE HOURIGAN: I'd be curious to how many people are really like that, because I don't think.

[36:04] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[36:04] DIANE HOURIGAN: I don't think the majority of them are.

[36:07] JAMES JORDAN: No, I don't either. No, no, no, I don't either.

[36:12] DIANE HOURIGAN: I worked in a dental clinic that just took Medicaid patients because most dentists don't take Medicaid because they can't Make a living. They get paid so little. So it's a, it's a bigger operation and you have to move through people faster and whatnot. But the vast majority of these people were working and very appreciative and, you know, yeah. there were a few that, you know, are kind of like, oh, that's a little suspicious, but, you know, sure, they hurt like everybody else, right? You know, that's your job is to take care of them.

[36:45] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[36:46] JAMES JORDAN: I mean, yeah.

[36:48] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[36:49] JAMES JORDAN: And of course, I don't know. I guess I grew up poor. I didn't know I was, but, you know, we were pretty much poor farmers in East Tennessee, but, but we had a lot to eat. all that, you know, so. But, yeah, I just don't get it. I mean, why shouldn't we take care of people, you know?

[37:07] DIANE HOURIGAN: I mean, yeah, I don't. That's funny that you say that, because I've come to realize, too, that we were really poor, but I didn't know it.

[37:15] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know. And, you know, but then they give, they give, they give, they give corporate welfare, and they don't. even monitor that, you know, I mean, yeah. And you know, I, here's a thing I found interesting. Over the years, I've asked business owners, what is, what makes you hire new people? Just no context, just that question. Not a single one has said lower taxes. None. And sometimes I've said, well, what if your taxes were lower? And they laugh, right? No, that's not going to make me hire more people. But yet, that's the line that politicians are giving us, you know, and it's just not true.

[37:59] DIANE HOURIGAN: Well, yeah, I mean, as a dentist, I couldn't hire more people unless I had patients coming in where I needed more help.

[38:06] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[38:06] DIANE HOURIGAN: Bottom line.

[38:08] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[38:09] JAMES JORDAN: More people buying your stuff.

[38:12] DIANE HOURIGAN: Lower taxes don't make any difference if you're not making any money to start with, you know?

[38:17] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, yeah, right.

[38:18] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[38:22] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, let's see. Well, what do you think about immigration? I mean, that's a pretty complex issue.

[38:37] DIANE HOURIGAN: Yeah, I wish I knew the answer. I, yeah. I really feel for the people that have been here, like their entire like, yeah, I just like. And, and, of course, my experience has been everybody that I know has been hard-working, you know.

[39:00] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[39:01] DIANE HOURIGAN: Paying their taxes, not being able to give the benefits there. And they've been gracious and kind and. Yeah, I I I'm probably not very objective about it. I mean, I I agree there should be a process, but I I. we should have a process and use the process.

[39:20] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[39:20] DIANE HOURIGAN: And more judges because it's now it takes so long to, and there's so many hoops to jump through that it's really hard to know what to do to immigrate into the country. When I was in dental school, I was dating the head of the ortho department and he was from Australia and he had said that it was really, really hard, even though we had a job guaranteed him. It was really hard to get the right visas to come over here. And then once he got his, then they couldn't figure out how to get his wife, who he was married at the time, it couldn't figure out how to get her over here. And nobody seemed to know the answer. And they jumped through all these hoops. And finally it was something almost as simple as, well, because she's married to you and you're here, then she gets the paperwork. I mean, it was just crazy.

[40:13] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[40:13] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[40:13] DIANE HOURIGAN: You know, so for people think that it's really an, and maybe it's changed since then because that was a long time ago. But it's not that easy to become a citizen to start with. It's a long process. So to make, to make judges and, and increase the numbers that they can take, I mean, they have to decide how many they want to accept, but then they should make it fairly easy for people to get in, I think, you know.

[40:38] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, like a basic work permit or something.

[40:41] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[40:43] JAMES JORDAN: I have a story for you. My daughter-in-law is Polish, and she grew up in Poland when it was communist. Okay, well, she was trying to get her citizenship here, and it was blocked because she had been a member of a communist organization and hadn't disclosed it.

[41:03] JAMES JORDAN: Well.

[41:08] JAMES JORDAN: With the Girl Scouts.

[41:10] DIANE HOURIGAN: Are you kidding me?

[41:12] JAMES JORDAN: You know, and it was technically because it was part of the Communist government. So it was a communist organization. But, yeah, it took like a year to get that worked out, you know? And, of course, she's a language person, and she. She cut. She cussed out several people in several languages.

[41:33] JAMES JORDAN: Wow.

[41:36] JAMES JORDAN: But, yeah, you know, but, yeah, I.

[41:38] DIANE HOURIGAN: Mean.

[41:44] JAMES JORDAN: But, yeah, I mean, they could have, like, basic work permits. I mean, it wouldn't be that hard, you know, and.

[41:52] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[41:52] DIANE HOURIGAN: And I think, you know, I. I just don't see that there. I mean, I. I don't know what I think about the people that are already in here. They said that they were going to get rid of the criminals and all that sort of thing. And I agree. But then some people say, well, you're in here without a permit, you're a criminal. And I just, yeah, yeah.

[42:11] JAMES JORDAN: There's levels.

[42:13] DIANE HOURIGAN: You know?

[42:15] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[42:15] DIANE HOURIGAN: Because the people that are in there, like the people working on construction and, and in restaurants and all that, you know, we, and in the fields and the, in the fields working.

[42:26] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. you know? Yeah.

[42:27] DIANE HOURIGAN: We need those people.

[42:29] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[42:29] JAMES JORDAN: But then I don't, I have a struggle with the idea that they're paying them a lot less. You know, they say we need those people because we're paying them a dollar an hour.

[42:39] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[42:40] JAMES JORDAN: And that isn't right either, you know?

[42:42] DIANE HOURIGAN: I mean, no, that's, that's, you're exactly right, you know? And it's that they're happy with that.

[42:48] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[42:50] JAMES JORDAN: So I don't know. I think it's a system of work. Basic work permits would work, you know, and if somebody commits a felony, okay, you know.

[43:00] DIANE HOURIGAN: Well, yeah, exactly. I totally agree with that. And I thought that's what we had, but it seems like now they're going after everybody, whether they have a permit or not.

[43:09] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And people that don't need to be gone after, yeah, you know.

[43:14] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[43:17] JAMES JORDAN: I know there was this lady here in our town who I'm sure she was probably not legal. And she would come around and sell tortillas and burritos and tamales, and they were really good, you know, and it was just kind of under the table cash thing. And I noticed, though, that when all this ice stuff started going on, she disappeared. I mean, she's just not around anymore. And that's probably. I mean, I don't think she got arrested, but I think she just went underground, you know. but, you know, that was kind of sad, you know?

[43:51] DIANE HOURIGAN: Can't blame him, can you?

[43:56] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[43:57] JAMES JORDAN: Okay.

[44:00] DIANE HOURIGAN: Yeah, it is, isn't it?

[44:03] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[44:04] JAMES JORDAN: Well, so I don't know. What do you think about this conversation thing?

[44:11] DIANE HOURIGAN: About what? about what thing?

[44:13] JAMES JORDAN: This conversation thing we're doing.

[44:16] DIANE HOURIGAN: Oh, yeah. I see there's a question here. I just noticed that have political discussions strained any of your relationships with your families and friends? I know they have in mine, but have you had any like that?

[44:32] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, a few. I had a cousin who I finally just blocked her. You know, it was just it was just all the time, you know, but yeah, I've had some people kind of not be as friendly, but not not many, you know, I mean, in my family, we just laughed about it, you know, it was like, oh, you Democrat, you like to pay taxes, you know?

[45:01] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[45:02] JAMES JORDAN: You know, it just wasn't serious at all. But but yeah, how about you?

[45:06] DIANE HOURIGAN: Have you had some well, yeah, the, the, the friend that, well, my family, my, my, we don't talk about it, but I think, I think my two, I've got three brothers. I think two of them are probably, well, I don't know if they're, I, I shouldn't say I don't know, but I walked into my older brother's house one time and he had a Rush Limbaugh cup, so I thought, okay, I better be careful about what I say here.

[45:37] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[45:39] DIANE HOURIGAN: And my sister was with me and she and I think alike. And so she saw that too. And we both kind of looked at each other and we're like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he kind of tried to steer it over to politics. We'd like tag team and steer the conversation out to each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there was one time when he, when I said something, he was talking about Biden and I said something that I thought Biden would be good at. And he goes, well, I hope you're right. Because I don't have any faith that that will happen. I hope you're right. And that's the most we've got. But then I noticed I called him a couple weeks ago to ask him something about our family history.

[46:22] JAMES JORDAN: And.

[46:24] DIANE HOURIGAN: We actually, it would have been in the past, it would have been a conversation with that would have lasted, like, two minutes. And we probably talked for 20 or 25 minutes. So he was open to even talking to me. And of course, we didn't get political or anything, but the fact that he's always, I've always felt he's kind of, like, brushed me off, you know, and didn't want to have me around. But I, I was just pretty amazed about that. And then the other one was with my friend that had every reason to not vote for Trump, but it's just avid Trumper. And I made the mistake one time of saying, and this was the first time I said, oh, you know, if Trump's elected, I might just have to kill myself. And I was just joking, you know, I was throwing it out there. And, yeah. day he came to me and he goes, he was really serious. He goes, I need to talk to you. And he goes, you know, I know dentists have a really high suicide rate. And he goes, if you killed yourself and I knowing that I've done everything that I could to get Trump elected and yet that made you kill yourself, he goes, I don't know if I could live with myself after that. And I was, I was so, I was so shocked. I was like, you have to know I wasn't serious about that. And he goes, well, no, I don't. And I'm like, hey, I said, number one, I'm too chicken to ever hurt myself.

[47:58] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah, me too.

[47:59] DIANE HOURIGAN: There's them two chickens.

[48:01] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. Yeah.

[48:02] DIANE HOURIGAN: So, yes. So I was, yeah, we got to the point where we could hardly speak to each other, and I hung up on the phone one time, and then he sent me some nasty, nasty text messages and called me names, and. And it was just awful. And then after his. Parents came to see him when he was dying. He did this kind of turnaround and we were able to kind of patch things over before he died. So I was really, really glad about that. So that was a tough one.

[48:33] JAMES JORDAN: Tough one.

[48:34] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[48:35] JAMES JORDAN: I had a little while with my brother for maybe a couple of years there. He was really hardcore, far right, Rush Limbaugh, Trump and all that. But we kind of, I don't know, and I don't even know what happened, but just one day it wasn't an issue anymore. We just decided to go move on, you know?

[48:54] DIANE HOURIGAN: Well, yeah.

[48:55] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[48:56] JAMES JORDAN: But yeah, well, we're about to run out of time.

[48:59] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[49:00] JAMES JORDAN: The thing I've noticed with these conversations is like, to me, it doesn't get in depth enough, you know? I don't know. It's just like the one conversation doesn't really seem to do it.

[49:12] DIANE HOURIGAN: I don't know.

[49:13] JAMES JORDAN: If you wanted to keep in touch some way or, you know.

[49:17] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[49:18] JAMES JORDAN: How would we do this? Email, perhaps.

[49:23] DIANE HOURIGAN: Okay. Do we have access to that?

[49:27] JAMES JORDAN: No, I could give it to you, but.

[49:29] DIANE HOURIGAN: Okay, I've got paper.

[49:35] JAMES JORDAN: It's ##### ###### ###. it's all one.

[49:39] DIANE HOURIGAN: Thing ##### ###### yeah.

[49:45] JAMES JORDAN: ###@#####.### mine is.

[49:50] DIANE HOURIGAN: ##### #### ##.### ## ## yeah okay.

[49:59] JAMES JORDAN: Okay give it to me again I'm.

[50:00] DIANE HOURIGAN: Sorry ##### #### ##.### ## ##.

[50:06] JAMES JORDAN: Okay. All right. Okay.

[50:09] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah.

[50:09] JAMES JORDAN: If you want to email, then we can just see what happens there, you know?

[50:12] DIANE HOURIGAN: Okay.

[50:15] JAMES JORDAN: Yeah. All right.

[50:17] JAMES JORDAN: Well, enjoyed it. Appreciate your time there. And we're gonna hit stop record, but a little. But it won't stop us.

[50:26] DIANE HOURIGAN: You made it. You made it really.