Steven Perlman and Alan Griffin

[00:02] ALAN GRIFFIN: So how are you?

[00:03] STEVEN PERLMAN: I'm good. I'm good. Just got back from our vacation, so that was very enjoyable. I guess. I guess. I guess a little party of 25 people is nothing for you, but having 34 grandchildren, but it was. It was really a good time. We had beautiful weather and. We had 10 kids ages 2 to 11 who had never met before. You know, three of the family, so they got along great, which was obviously very key to the success of the week.

[00:40] ALAN GRIFFIN: Now help me understand, where did you go?

[00:43] STEVEN PERLMAN: Cape Cod.

[00:45] ALAN GRIFFIN: Oh, Whale Run.

[00:48] STEVEN PERLMAN: I'm originally from back east. I'm from New York. We're out in Cali now, as is my daughter and son-in-law and three grandchildren. My wife's cousins live in Maryland, but they go up to the Cape every year for a couple of weeks. So they had their two sons with wives and grandchildren come up. My wife's sister and her daughter and grandchildren came up and then my son And his girlfriend came up and he popped the question while we were there.

[01:23] ALAN GRIFFIN: There you go.

[01:24] STEVEN PERLMAN: It was a great week. It would be fun.

[01:28] ALAN GRIFFIN: Sounds like a great time.

[01:30] STEVEN PERLMAN: It was, you know, it really was. It was good to get away. I typically don't like leaving Southern California in the summer. It doesn't make sense, but this was, it was a good time. We spent a little time in Boston and got to see some friends in New York while we were there as well.

[01:45] ALAN GRIFFIN: Now, were you in upstate New York or down in the city or which part?

[01:50] STEVEN PERLMAN: In between, you know, New York?

[01:53] ALAN GRIFFIN: Yeah, I spent two years in New York.

[01:55] STEVEN PERLMAN: Oh, where?

[01:57] ALAN GRIFFIN: Well, I was in, for a little while, I was in Glens Falls and then Schenectady and Buffalo and I tried and traveled around for to several different places in Albany for a while.

[02:08] STEVEN PERLMAN: Okay, that's a different part of New York. I'm down south. We were, grew up in Westchester. So, which is just north of the city. And yeah, and that's where my friends were, so we went back to see them.

[02:24] ALAN GRIFFIN: Very good.

[02:26] STEVEN PERLMAN: Have you done this before?

[02:29] ALAN GRIFFIN: Yeah, once before.

[02:30] STEVEN PERLMAN: Oh, okay. This is my first one. So be gentle with me.

[02:37] ALAN GRIFFIN: I apologize, I didn't see your bio. I guess you saw mine, but I don't know where they were.

[02:44] STEVEN PERLMAN: Oh, sorry. Mine popped up, right? Yours popped up on top of the screen, right? Right as I was logging in.

[02:51] ALAN GRIFFIN: Well, let's see. I don't, I don't, I see Steven and I see that you're 65 plus and you're Democratic. Oh, there's the read bio. Let's see.

[03:03] STEVEN PERLMAN: I'm not Democratic. I'm no party affiliation.

[03:07] ALAN GRIFFIN: Ah, okay.

[03:09] STEVEN PERLMAN: Leaning more to Democratic for sure, but I wrote them back to say they have me too liberal, too much towards the liberal side. I'm more towards a centrist than liberal.

[03:27] ALAN GRIFFIN: Okay, well, I'm looking through your bio now. Now I found it that says we're supposed to read. I don't know whether to read it out loud. Apparently you've already read mine, so I'll just look through through yours here a minute.

[03:38] STEVEN PERLMAN: Sure.

[03:43] ALAN GRIFFIN: I think we're somewhat in common in respect of our political opinions. I said that I was sort of conservative, but I kind of lean more toward just independent now. I just feel like, you know, I want to find people who are decent to run and I don't like either party very much.

[04:08] STEVEN PERLMAN: You know, I kind of feel the same way. I, you know, I do think the Democrats have a couple of people that are coming up that could be interesting. Not Newsom. My governor's too. I like the way he's standing up to Trump. And I like you know, I think he's an excellent debater and things like that, but as far as the governor and his two liberal ways for me. But, yeah.

[04:43] ALAN GRIFFIN: I don't know enough about him. I, you know, I feel like you do. I've seen him standing up and that's, that's good, but I don't know enough about his other policies in California is sometimes pretty wild down there.

[04:56] STEVEN PERLMAN: Yeah, we, we've been out here 10 years, a little over 10 years now. And but I'm from New York, so, you know, I kind of went from deep blue to deep blue. So as far as states go anyway, so not much has changed from that perspective. But he is, you know, from taxes and things like that, he's really insane. But, you know, I also love living here, so you do what you got to do. And the grandchildren are here, so I'm not living I'm not leaving here unless they end up leaving. The interesting part is my daughter and son-in-law. So I'm Jewish. My first wife was Christian, but we really brought my daughter up very little of both. We celebrated holidays, but that's about the extent of it. She came out here and her and her husband have become Christians and.

[06:03] SPEAKER C: Pretty.

[06:04] STEVEN PERLMAN: Pretty concerned, real conservative point of view. My son, who lives in New York, in Brooklyn, is about as liberal as you can get. So it's some interesting times are had by all, I guess.

[06:20] ALAN GRIFFIN: Yeah, it makes for interesting conversations, I'm sure.

[06:24] STEVEN PERLMAN: You know, sometimes the best conversations are the ones you don't have.

[06:30] ALAN GRIFFIN: That's true.

[06:32] STEVEN PERLMAN: I mean, which is one of the reasons why this was attractive to me. You know, I lived on a cul-de-sac.

[06:41] SPEAKER C: And.

[06:43] STEVEN PERLMAN: Of the five houses on the cul-de-sac, people next to me are conservative Christians. people on the, I'm Jewish, people on the other side of me are Baptists from Mississippi. The people next to them are, well, they move, they're, they're renting their house right now, but I call her a socialist from Sweden. But he's from, he's from, like, the Midwest farmer. And then we have other good friends are later day saints. So, and that next to me, they're the most liberal people on the block. So, so it's, it's pretty interesting because we all get together and we could talk about any topic. During COVID we set up a Saturday morning coffee clutch where we would, we would set our chairs six feet apart and we'd go out and have coffee and we we'd spend an hour or two out there just throwing the conversation around. And it was really good. It helped save us during the time.

[07:56] ALAN GRIFFIN: How nice.

[07:57] STEVEN PERLMAN: Yeah, it was.

[07:58] ALAN GRIFFIN: That's impressive that you would get together with them. I mean, without any organization making you to get together, you just did, huh?

[08:05] STEVEN PERLMAN: Yeah, we kind of just liked each other, you know? Strange, but that's great.

[08:11] ALAN GRIFFIN: I like it.

[08:12] STEVEN PERLMAN: So how about you, an educator for 47 years? Yeah. What, high school or?

[08:20] ALAN GRIFFIN: Well, I began by teaching middle school. I taught social studies in the middle school with, you know, American history and world history and Utah history and then moved on to the high school where I taught again some history classes. But in the process of that, I picked up a few computer skills. And when they found out at the high school that I could do things with a computer, they put me in a computer lab with a bunch of kids. And so I did that for a while. And then after that, I found out how to get on the internet. And this is way back when the internet consisted of a black screen with white print on it. And the district, school district found out that I was on the internet and they didn't know anything about the internet way back then. And it was just going in in all the schools in Utah. And so they pulled me into the district office. And so I left the teaching part of it and went into the district office.

[09:25] SPEAKER C: Right.

[09:25] ALAN GRIFFIN: And actually helped set up all of the internet connections in the school district.

[09:31] SPEAKER C: Wow.

[09:32] ALAN GRIFFIN: And so I stayed in the district office doing that and helping with that for about 13 years. And then I retired. I had 25 years in education at that point in time and took a job down in Salt Lake at the state office of education.

[09:51] STEVEN PERLMAN: Okay.

[09:53] ALAN GRIFFIN: And so I worked there for another 17 years. And so that totaled up my 47 years in education.

[10:01] STEVEN PERLMAN: Wow. Where are you in Utah?

[10:04] ALAN GRIFFIN: I'm in a little town called West Haven. It's just west of Ogden, which is 35 miles north of Salt Lake.

[10:15] STEVEN PERLMAN: So I was in Utah not too long ago. Oh yeah. This past winter, a friend of mine has a house there up in Brian Head.

[10:27] SPEAKER C: Yeah. Yeah.

[10:28] STEVEN PERLMAN: So it was interesting. It was right after we met and he's pretty conservative. And you know, I am. And he calls me up. We did, we were both into wine, so part of a lot of the same wine group. So we've met, you know, we had the wives together. We got along really well. And then he texts me. He goes, Would you like to go to our house and and Brian had, you know, you and me for a couple of days. So I said, sure. And I said, I give it a shot. And the funny part is the wives start freaking out, you know, what's gonna happen together before they might kill each other, you know, we ended up having a great time. We had some interesting conversations, but there was sports and stuff to bond over.

[11:17] ALAN GRIFFIN: Was that in the summertime or the wintertime?

[11:20] STEVEN PERLMAN: That was in the wintertime. It was nice though. We did snowmobiling, went down to what's the National Park? Bryce Canyon or the Hodos?

[11:41] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[11:43] STEVEN PERLMAN: Bryce we went to. Bryce it was, yeah. That was beautiful. Had a really nice few days. Interesting part, you go from 10 degrees in Utah to 110 degrees in Vegas, just driving home.

[12:00] ALAN GRIFFIN: Yeah, yeah. Well, in Utah you can go from one extreme to another rather quickly. Down in St. George is right now, I think they're about 110 today.

[12:11] STEVEN PERLMAN: Really?

[12:12] ALAN GRIFFIN: We are right here, we're at 99. Oh, it's pretty warm. I don't know what it's like where you are.

[12:20] STEVEN PERLMAN: It's 75 degrees, no humidity, sunny. That's every day. I don't think we've hit 85 yet this summer. Yeah, and we don't have, you know, back in New York, the thing that really bothers you, it's not when the weather gets up really high, it's the humidity that goes along with it. so I had to get that humidity again. But it was nice. It's beautiful.

[12:49] ALAN GRIFFIN: I remember getting caught on a bicycle in New York when there was a big thunderstorm.

[12:56] STEVEN PERLMAN: Oh, okay.

[12:58] ALAN GRIFFIN: We had to wring out our clothes. So you've been in the software industry for a while?

[13:06] STEVEN PERLMAN: Yeah, I was. It was interesting. I started out in the clothing industry. I've been in sales my whole life and was in the clothing industry for, let's say, 74 to probably about 15 years or so. And then I started seeing the handwriting on the wall that, you know, in the late 80s technology, you know, was coming on and it's probably a good time to look at something new, you know, phase two in my life. So I started getting into computers, never really a techie, more of a, you know, like I said, sales, sales management. I worked my way up and first I worked for a large software company called Computer Associates or CA and they sell, they're known mainly for mainstream software. They're owned by Broadcom now. You know, so I was selling security software to Citigroup and Chase. And it was interesting. I had, you know, worldwide responsibilities. So I spent a lot of time in Europe and in India, which was an interesting place to visit. And after I left them, I and I moved out here, I went to work for Verizon in their business side. I managed a global relationship with Cisco. Really enjoyed it. It was a good ride in both places. I saw things changing when I was like 68. I said, maybe it's time to get out. And then COVID was here and they were going to pay me to sit at home and talk on the computer. So I said, well, maybe we'll stick it out for another year. I've been retired three years now.

[14:56] ALAN GRIFFIN: Two years. Are you enjoying it?

[15:00] STEVEN PERLMAN: Three years. It took time. You know, it's like the first day I didn't have 200 emails sitting there waiting for me. I kind of went through some withdrawals. You know, what do you do with your time? I used to work from, I get calls at five in the morning because I'm dealing with Europe. and you work into the night.

[15:22] SPEAKER C: You.

[15:26] STEVEN PERLMAN: Have a lot of yourself image rolled up in what you do for a job, or at least I did. And so it kind of had to go through a lot of different things. But I'm finally used to, like people have said to me, well, why don't you just go back? you could do things part time, contract work, things like that. I said, In three years, technology has changed so much. I don't know how to spell AI. Absolutely. So what about you? You still working or do you retire? You said in May you're going to retire. So did you retire? You out of business?

[16:07] ALAN GRIFFIN: I've been retired three years.

[16:09] STEVEN PERLMAN: Oh, okay.

[16:10] SPEAKER C: So.

[16:12] ALAN GRIFFIN: And I've just been enjoying a lot of hobbies that I had. I do a little bit of music. I play the guitar and the drums. I kind of write stories. And my latest is I picked up puppetry.

[16:28] STEVEN PERLMAN: I saw that. That seems pretty cool.

[16:31] ALAN GRIFFIN: I do some puppet shows for kids every once in a while. And actually that's picked up. It's been a busy summer. I've done a lot of shows. It's been great. That's fun.

[16:41] STEVEN PERLMAN: It's great.

[16:42] ALAN GRIFFIN: So, I, yeah.

[16:46] STEVEN PERLMAN: My mother's 94 and she's living near us. So, my wife and I are kind of full-time responsible for her. So that takes a lot of time. But, yeah, I spent a lot of time. I'm into hiking, I'm into, you know, I spent a lot of time in the gym, you know, things like that. But, and the grandkids are nearby. you know, three, three keep me busy. So, you know, I don't know, between soccer and tennis and school work and things like that. How do you, how do you do, how do you juggle 34?

[17:18] ALAN GRIFFIN: What's the age?

[17:20] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[17:22] ALAN GRIFFIN: Excuse me. I am, this is the first year we have had, we've not had kids going back to school. My youngest child just turned 18 and so he graduated last year.

[17:38] STEVEN PERLMAN: Oh, wow.

[17:39] ALAN GRIFFIN: He's planning to go up to Weber State University, so he's going to continue. But as far as going shopping for school clothes and all those things, you don't have to do that anymore.

[17:54] STEVEN PERLMAN: That's great. Any great grandchildren yet? Not yet.

[17:57] ALAN GRIFFIN: Not yet.

[17:58] STEVEN PERLMAN: How old is your oldest?

[18:04] ALAN GRIFFIN: She was born in ##, so. Okay, so almost. He's in her 40s, so let's just say that.

[18:11] STEVEN PERLMAN: Okay. It's.

[18:14] ALAN GRIFFIN: I mean, we have fun with the kids.

[18:16] STEVEN PERLMAN: Most.

[18:17] ALAN GRIFFIN: Most of our kids are. Are somewhat local. I have a daughter who lives out in Michigan and another daughter who lives up in Boise, Idaho.

[18:26] STEVEN PERLMAN: Oh, okay.

[18:27] ALAN GRIFFIN: But all the rest of them are, well, no, I have one in California now too. I have one down in Monterey.

[18:36] STEVEN PERLMAN: Oh, okay, that's up in Monterey.

[18:38] ALAN GRIFFIN: Yeah, but the rest of them are within 50 miles, so we get together fairly often.

[18:46] STEVEN PERLMAN: Boise, Idaho, she lives there with all the Californians that left California for Idaho.

[18:52] ALAN GRIFFIN: I thought all the Californians came to Utah.

[18:55] STEVEN PERLMAN: That too. That too.

[18:57] ALAN GRIFFIN: We hear that a lot.

[18:59] STEVEN PERLMAN: Drove up those real estate prices.

[19:02] ALAN GRIFFIN: Yeah, right. Our real estate prices are way high right now.

[19:07] STEVEN PERLMAN: Yeah, ours too. Ours too.

[19:12] ALAN GRIFFIN: So, yeah. Your wife is still living with you or?

[19:17] STEVEN PERLMAN: My second one is.

[19:19] ALAN GRIFFIN: Your second one. Okay.

[19:20] STEVEN PERLMAN: My first one, we made it seven years old enough to have long enough to have a daughter who's the mother of my three grandchildren. My second wife and I have been together next month will be 32 years.

[19:37] ALAN GRIFFIN: So great.

[19:38] STEVEN PERLMAN: Took me a little time to get it right, but I got it right.

[19:41] ALAN GRIFFIN: Well, everybody has a different path to go.

[19:45] STEVEN PERLMAN: That'S true. That's true. You hit 50 yet?

[19:49] ALAN GRIFFIN: 50 here.

[19:52] STEVEN PERLMAN: Wow.

[19:52] ALAN GRIFFIN: Next. Next June will be our 50th anniversary.

[19:55] STEVEN PERLMAN: Congratulations.

[19:57] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[19:59] ALAN GRIFFIN: I think the kids have kept us so busy.

[20:01] SPEAKER C: We.

[20:03] STEVEN PERLMAN: Oh, so now that you're empty nesters.

[20:08] ALAN GRIFFIN: We'Re still not there. We still got one at home. Oh, he's still at home.

[20:11] STEVEN PERLMAN: Okay. get him out to Weber.

[20:14] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[20:16] ALAN GRIFFIN: I don't know how I'm gonna handle that because I guess we'll have to talk to each other a little more.

[20:21] SPEAKER C: Yeah. Yeah.

[20:24] ALAN GRIFFIN: Do you have hobbies that you do with your wife or anything like that?

[20:28] STEVEN PERLMAN: We hike a lot together. We're both into music, not playing, but listening to like a lot of different types of music, everything from jazz, the classic rock, you know, things like that, blues. So we've got to, you know, go to a lot of concerts. We like to travel for concerts, you know, we've been to Red Rocks for a concert there, which is absolutely a spectacular place. If you've ever been, if you've never been there. You know, we've got a lot of friends we go up to, we have very good friends. So I have another group of friends, very similar to the people I told you around here that I've known, we grew up in New York in a suburb of the city and there's 10 of us that started a call, a video call, a Zoom call every Friday during COVID And we're all over the country. We've got Atlanta, Florida, New York, Jersey, Chicago. Arizona. And we still have that call going. So every Friday at 1 30 Pacific time, we have a call with about 10 guys jumping on and just talking about life, you know, and that's awesome. Good. Yeah, it's really good. And so one of them lives in Santa Monica. And, you know, so the two couples are, you know, we're very close with them and. so they come down to us when they want to get to the beach and we go up to them. We want some City Life. That works out well.

[22:09] ALAN GRIFFIN: You sound like you make friends wherever you go. That's great.

[22:13] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[22:13] STEVEN PERLMAN: You know, I do. Okay. It sells. The funny part is my wife is. I wouldn't say a hermit, but, you know, she's. She's not very social. She does it and she enjoys it when she does it, but then she has. After this week of being with everyone, she's locked me up with my cats for a while and she'll be very happy. So what kind of music do you play? I'm sorry.

[22:42] ALAN GRIFFIN: I was gonna say you like music. What's your favorite concert or group?

[22:47] STEVEN PERLMAN: Well my favorite concert, I went to Woodstock.

[22:51] ALAN GRIFFIN: Oh really?

[22:52] STEVEN PERLMAN: That gives me instant credibility. with all different, my kids who are six years apart, I get instant credibility from them, but with all their friends and stuff.

[23:06] ALAN GRIFFIN: But.

[23:09] STEVEN PERLMAN: You know, I think the issue is everyone I like back from the 70s are now either dead or in their 80s. So they're not necessarily playing or creating new music, but I still I love listening to classic rock, but a lot of what I listen to now is jazz. Oh yeah. You know, there's some really nice venues around here that we go to, you know, the Hollywood Bowl or some local places. How about you? What do you play?

[23:42] ALAN GRIFFIN: Well, I recently I've been playing more guitar than I have the drums. I used to you know, way back when, when I had the drum set, I still do, but I played in a band that did some Tewa or brass.

[23:58] STEVEN PERLMAN: Oh, right. Herb Albert.

[24:00] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[24:01] ALAN GRIFFIN: As a matter of fact, this summer, Herb Albert came to Salt Lake and we went down to see him.

[24:06] STEVEN PERLMAN: Oh, really?

[24:07] ALAN GRIFFIN: Incredible. He's 90 years old and he's still playing really good. So I thought, well, okay, I can't quit. I'm only 75. I gotta keep going. I have a buddy and we get together and play a lot of kind of bluegrass and folk music and sometimes we write our own music and I've recently discovered that and I don't know how to feel about this, I'm still kind of working on it but if I submit a poem to ChatGPT.

[24:39] SPEAKER C: It.

[24:39] ALAN GRIFFIN: Composes the music for me. So I've written a couple of songs. I use the term loosely written because I provide the lyrics but the AI writes the music. So it's amazing.

[24:53] STEVEN PERLMAN: There's a lyricist and there's a music man, you know?

[24:57] ALAN GRIFFIN: Yeah.

[24:58] STEVEN PERLMAN: If you'd like Billy Joel, I love Billy Joel. If you get Home Box, there's a fantastic documentary on his life. I recommend it highly. But yeah, we just watched it. It was excellent. We saw Joni Mitchell not too long ago.

[25:21] ALAN GRIFFIN: Oh, is that right?

[25:22] SPEAKER C: Yeah. Yeah.

[25:23] STEVEN PERLMAN: She's been pretty sick for a while, so she kind of sits in a chair and, you know, she's sitting there. Oh, she's out there, but she's been sick, you know, but she has a really nice, everybody's sitting, the whole orchestra is sitting in The first set, she was singing a lot of stuff that I didn't know, and it was at Hollywood Bowl, it was kind of like nodding off. She came out on the second set and she started singing it, and then all of a sudden you start seeing her guests that came to play with her. Elton John. What's your name? Remember the Eurythmics? Annie Lennox was there. I mean, it was just one after another after another. It was really an unbelievable concert.

[26:12] ALAN GRIFFIN: Huh, that would be fun.

[26:15] STEVEN PERLMAN: Yeah, it was. Awesome. So you're a skier?

[26:22] SPEAKER C: No? No.

[26:24] STEVEN PERLMAN: Snowboarder?

[26:26] ALAN GRIFFIN: Seems like I should be. I live in Utah and that's only 20 minutes to a ski resort.

[26:32] STEVEN PERLMAN: Right.

[26:33] ALAN GRIFFIN: But the only time I went skiing, I went with some of my sons. And at the time, I had an eight-year-old son, and he had never been skiing before. And then I had a, like a 17-year-old son, and he was, you know, anxious to get out and grab the gusto and go down the hill as fast as he could and everything else. So I got to stay with the eight-year-old and get him to put his skis together and try to keep him from running into trees. and that's the only time I ever got to go skiing. So I go down the hill with an inner tube, okay.

[27:11] STEVEN PERLMAN: But I did go with sleds, a little cross-country skiing.

[27:16] ALAN GRIFFIN: But yeah, but I do love to get out. We have some property about an hour away from here. We have 20 acres up in the mountains that we've build a little shack or two on and we just like to go up there to get away. It's nice to get away from the city every once in a while and out where you can't hear anything but birds and wind, you know.

[27:39] STEVEN PERLMAN: How long does it take to get up to 20 miles?

[27:43] ALAN GRIFFIN: It's about, it's about 40 miles. It takes an hour to get there.

[27:49] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[27:50] STEVEN PERLMAN: So that's, that's quick.

[27:52] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[27:53] STEVEN PERLMAN: That'S not California traffic.

[27:55] ALAN GRIFFIN: Yeah, yeah. We enjoy living in West Haven just for the fact that it's somewhat rural. I mean, in our backyard, right across the fence, there's a pasture with a whole bunch of cows and horses. In the front yard, if you look across the street, there's nine houses right across the street from us. So we got Urban in the front yard and rural in the backyard.

[28:18] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[28:20] ALAN GRIFFIN: But we're far enough away that I can play my drums and nobody complains. So it's good.

[28:25] STEVEN PERLMAN: That's what's important. That's what's important. How do we fix this whole political issue that we have here in the United States segueing to this? I don't know.

[28:37] ALAN GRIFFIN: I, you know, I don't know for sure. I think we've got to do something to pull people together. That's one of the reasons why I thought we would have this discussion, you know, to try and get people to understand different points of view.

[28:53] SPEAKER C: But.

[28:55] ALAN GRIFFIN: In some ways, I feel like the only way to solve it is to ignore it. That probably sounds really strange, but. But I have to figure out that what I'm doing in my neighborhood.

[29:10] SPEAKER C: Is.

[29:10] ALAN GRIFFIN: Probably much more important than. things I might end up doing at a rally or a national level or something like that. It's a matter of me getting together with people right here and hopefully creating a climate that we can all live in and be happy. And I hope it has some kind of influence some way in more state and national level.

[29:37] SPEAKER C: But right.

[29:39] ALAN GRIFFIN: I haven't been real politically active in terms of marching or anything like that. I don't know how you feel about it.

[29:47] STEVEN PERLMAN: Well, I did march in both the marches against Trump this year. So the Never Kings and I forgot why they were calling the other ones. I mean, I've been aware of Trump growing up in New York for a very long time. you know, I, it's hard because I think some of his ideas are good. It's the execution of what he does that is not good.

[30:20] ALAN GRIFFIN: Absolutely.

[30:21] STEVEN PERLMAN: And, you know, people around us, there's a lot of Mexicans, obviously, by me.

[30:27] SPEAKER C: And.

[30:29] STEVEN PERLMAN: And I find them to be the nicest people. great workers, you know, just family people that contribute to society. Now, of course, there's bad ones. And, and they all say, well, get rid of them. You know, they don't want them here either. So, you know, it really is hard. I mean, some of them are said, but actually, my daughter-in-law is a future daughter-in-law she's, her family's from Ecuador. she was born here and she, you know, so she totally speaks English beautifully and, you know, everything. But when we were going up to the cape, I said to my son, why don't you guys fly up? And he goes, well, we'd rather rent a car and drive up. I said, fine, whatever you want. But as it turns out, one of the reasons they didn't want to fly is she was afraid to get a real ID because she didn't want to, while she's legal and her mother became a citizen and her brother's a citizen, she didn't want to have to answer questions. She didn't want to, you know, she has a fear, she carries around her passport, her documentation because, because of the color of her skin, you know, so that really, that hurts. you know, and it hurts because I know so many good people.

[31:56] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[31:57] STEVEN PERLMAN: You know, that effect. So do I want the border shut down? Yes. Do I, do I think that, you know, my feeling is, I don't know if you want to get into this or not, but, but, but my, but my feeling is, is definitely if, if they're here already and they're contributing, Members of society, there should be a path for them to stay. Now, if the issue is that big that one of your political parties don't want them to vote, well, maybe they don't vote. Figure out something. But I definitely think that what he's doing is all wrong. He's doing great shutting down the border. but he's just haphazardly grabbing people that should not be grabbed, in my opinion.

[32:51] ALAN GRIFFIN: I like what you said about having a path to citizenship. That's what I think needs to be developed. I have a hard time believing there's that many criminals among them. There's criminals in every group.

[33:08] STEVEN PERLMAN: Exactly, exactly.

[33:10] ALAN GRIFFIN: It doesn't matter whether they're Hispanic or black or anything else. A criminal is a criminal. It doesn't matter what color they are.

[33:18] STEVEN PERLMAN: Right.

[33:20] ALAN GRIFFIN: But yeah, it's a difficult thing. I even wondered at one time, because I have three adopted children that are all Hispanic.

[33:31] STEVEN PERLMAN: Oh wow, okay.

[33:33] ALAN GRIFFIN: And I'm quite sure that their father is undocumented. I don't think he's here in the country anymore.

[33:42] SPEAKER C: Right.

[33:43] ALAN GRIFFIN: So I guess, you know, I wondered about it when Trump said that people who were born here but whose parents are undocumented might be, you know, taken out of the country.

[33:59] SPEAKER C: Right.

[33:59] ALAN GRIFFIN: I thought, well, are my kids going to be threatened? I mean, how can that happen?

[34:05] STEVEN PERLMAN: Yeah, there is the Constitution. While I could understand possibly amending the Constitution that maybe just because you're born here, you don't become a citizen here. But right now, I don't see any way that get around it that they are citizens. I actually adopted my son. My son is from my wife's first marriage, so I adopted.

[34:38] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[34:39] STEVEN PERLMAN: Uh-huh.

[34:40] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[34:41] ALAN GRIFFIN: Well, I don't know.

[34:44] STEVEN PERLMAN: I.

[34:46] ALAN GRIFFIN: Who knows what's gonna happen, I guess. But I don't like the way Trump seems to disregard the Constitution and do just about what he wants to do.

[34:56] STEVEN PERLMAN: Right.

[34:57] SPEAKER C: Right.

[34:58] ALAN GRIFFIN: I don't understand why there isn't some kind of restraint for him.

[35:04] SPEAKER C: Because.

[35:06] STEVEN PERLMAN: A lot of senators and congressmen are afraid that he'll primary them.

[35:11] ALAN GRIFFIN: Yeah, there's that. And he's replacing judges everywhere. And if he doesn't like somebody, he fires them and gets somebody else.

[35:23] SPEAKER C: Right.

[35:24] STEVEN PERLMAN: Yeah.

[35:25] ALAN GRIFFIN: Doesn't make any sense.

[35:27] STEVEN PERLMAN: No, it really doesn't. But he came back with a vengeance and unfortunately he won.

[35:36] ALAN GRIFFIN: So when you went out and marched in those two, what was it like?

[35:43] SPEAKER C: So.

[35:45] STEVEN PERLMAN: The second one was the larger one. The second one, the no Kings. It wasn't even about a couple miles from me, this PCH. Pacific Coast Highway. And there was a five mile.

[36:01] SPEAKER C: No.

[36:02] STEVEN PERLMAN: It was two and a half, I'm sorry, two and a half miles of PCH. People just lined the sidewalks. So you had both sides for a couple of miles filled with people just sigh. It was all peaceful. There was no, you know, just holding signs. and cars coming by beeping and stuff like that. It was a few hours. They did have cops there, but they were just standing off to the side. There was no, you know, they should have been there, but there's no reason they didn't have to do anything while they were there. So, yeah, I mean, it was very peaceful. It was just. brought me back to my hippie days in the 60s. A little less hair though.

[36:57] ALAN GRIFFIN: Those were interesting times. I used to think the 60s were rather turbulent and now I see what we're going through now and I think, well, I don't know it was any different.

[37:12] STEVEN PERLMAN: Yeah, definitely. that was interesting times for sure.

[37:19] ALAN GRIFFIN: So have you had good health?

[37:21] STEVEN PERLMAN: Not good, yes. I, you know, it's when I've gone through a lot of my friends, when we were on Kid Cod, I got a call from a friend of mine, a very close friend of mine who I've known for 25 years, and he lives upstate New York, yeah, in Westchester. and he tells me that they found a growth on his brain and he's going in tomorrow to get operated on. So, and they don't know, they haven't done a biopsy, they don't know what's, they're just gonna go in and see what it is when they go in there. But, so we, I said, okay, you know, we're coming. and, you know, after we finished with the family, we got in the car, drove six hours, and got to spend the weekend with him and his wife, which was. Which was nice, you know, it's. But I. I got friends, you know, most of my friends are okay. A couple of them are a couple of spouses or one ones on death. watch now. It's just, but luckily my wife and I both, you know, some physical issues that we take care of, you know, that she has a torn meniscus, she has nothing serious. Thank God. And we're doing good. How about you?

[38:52] ALAN GRIFFIN: I'm happy. I go to the gym on a regular basis and so do I try to keep you know, keep doing some things that will help me to move. And I figure that's probably the best insurance I've got, too.

[39:10] STEVEN PERLMAN: You know, I think so, too. And that's why I go on a regular basis.

[39:15] SPEAKER C: And.

[39:17] STEVEN PERLMAN: You know, it's important to me mentally as well as physically. Yeah. But, you know, when it comes to cancer, it comes to, you know, diseases like that. No matter what you do in the gym, it doesn't matter.

[39:30] ALAN GRIFFIN: Yeah. I have a great hope that there won't be any dementia for me. You know, keeping active physically and mentally. I memorize some of my puppetry stuff. I have a lot of stuff posted on the internet if you're interested.

[39:49] STEVEN PERLMAN: Oh sure.

[39:50] ALAN GRIFFIN: What's this? A website.

[40:02] STEVEN PERLMAN: Just happened to have a notepad here. What's the website?

[40:05] ALAN GRIFFIN: The website is small-tales.com, not C-O-M. So that's S-M-A-L-L-T-A-L-E-S.com.

[40:18] STEVEN PERLMAN: All right, I'll check it out.

[40:21] ALAN GRIFFIN: That'S where I put a lot of my puppetry stuff. I also, there's stuff that I do with my friend on the guitar. There's a couple of songs and things there too.

[40:34] STEVEN PERLMAN: Written by you or written by ChatGPT?

[40:36] ALAN GRIFFIN: Yeah, they're written by me. Most of them are written by me, not ChatGPT.

[40:45] STEVEN PERLMAN: Okay, I'll give it a listen.

[40:48] ALAN GRIFFIN: I've even got, I think there's a link there to some videos too that I produced. I, I had a, during COVID I was working in my church with a bunch of primary age kids, elementary kids.

[41:07] SPEAKER C: Right.

[41:07] ALAN GRIFFIN: And they were, I guess, the equivalent kind of catechism for the Catholics, but they were, they were needing some lessons and they weren't able to get together because of COVID so they asked me to put together some videos for them and so there's about 50 or so videos there of kids songs, you know, to encourage them to sing along. So I kind of use my puppets to help that that along but that way we were able to have our little lessons and still do it.

[41:49] SPEAKER C: In.

[41:49] ALAN GRIFFIN: Kind of an impersonal way over the internet.

[41:53] STEVEN PERLMAN: I was really impressed when I read your bio and everything that you're doing from, you know, the teacher, the educator and the puppetry and guitar. I mean, you know, I think if I look at one regret and I'm not, I could still do some things is not following through on some ideas I had to, after I retired or even while I was still working to do things.

[42:19] ALAN GRIFFIN: So do you have a bucket list?

[42:23] STEVEN PERLMAN: My bucket list is not, is unfortunately more where do I want to travel to or, you know, things like that. as opposed to charitable work I want to do.

[42:39] ALAN GRIFFIN: But I've done a lot of traveling.

[42:43] STEVEN PERLMAN: Yeah, well, when I was working, I did a lot of time in Europe and India, which is a very interesting place. And, you know, we went a couple years ago, we went to, I took, my wife hadn't been there, we went to France and Portugal. We were supposed to go to Japan last year, but my mother got sick, so we didn't go. But I think we're talking about possibly Ireland next year, which people, I have several friends that just got back from Ireland and they absolutely loved it. It's spectacular. So we'll get a shot. I would like to get to the orient, though. The furthest I've gone east is Singapore. Have you done any traveling or?

[43:41] ALAN GRIFFIN: I had a trip to Japan once through education that we were to look at the Japanese educational system. So I spent about three weeks there. for a trip once and I, you know, I've gone a couple of cruises with my kids and so on. I've done a lot of things in the states, but not, not too much for them.

[44:06] STEVEN PERLMAN: Yeah, it's interesting.

[44:08] ALAN GRIFFIN: It's, yeah, yeah, I'd like to, but I'm not sure. Maybe when I figure out what to do with myself now that I'm almost an empty nester, maybe I'll just what.

[44:19] STEVEN PERLMAN: You want to be when you grow up.

[44:21] ALAN GRIFFIN: Yeah, right. We've got about five minutes left. Are there any other current issues or items you want to talk about?

[44:30] STEVEN PERLMAN: No, I don't know. You have anything? I just been enjoying the conversation.

[44:35] ALAN GRIFFIN: Yeah, I, you know, the political thing is one thing. I don't know what else is going on. I guess the climate change and all those kinds of things going on.

[44:47] STEVEN PERLMAN: Yeah, I support science.

[44:52] ALAN GRIFFIN: Well, so do I. Yeah, well, a lot of people see it in science and other things.

[45:01] STEVEN PERLMAN: That's our five minute warning, I guess.

[45:03] SPEAKER C: Oh, yeah.

[45:06] STEVEN PERLMAN: You know, it's. I mean, you take a look out here. When we moved out here, you know, everybody got. what are you gonna do with all the earthquakes out there? What are you gonna do? Knock wood, I've had no earthquakes by me the whole time I was here. But, you know, these wildfires are absolutely incredible. And one was last month, it was about four miles from us and burning into a canyon, but it didn't come anywhere near us, but they got it out quickly also.

[45:39] SPEAKER C: So. But.

[45:41] STEVEN PERLMAN: It'S, you know, we had one a couple of years, a year or two ago that destroyed, you know, some of the highest priced real estate in the area. It's dangerous, it really is. And what happened in Malibu and the Palisades was really an awful thing this past, you know, this past year.

[46:04] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[46:06] STEVEN PERLMAN: Could you get some, but when I went up to Brian Head, there was a lot of burnt out forestry up that way.

[46:15] ALAN GRIFFIN: Yeah, we, I mean, we get fires too. I'm not sure what was going on Brian Head. We had a fire last week right here in Ogden up on the mountainside. A car kind of exploded. It caught fire. And it ran into the brush on the side of the mountain and it threatened about 16 homes. But luckily the firefighters got there and were able to preserve the structures and after a day or two they got it out.

[46:51] SPEAKER C: So.

[46:53] STEVEN PERLMAN: One of the biggest fires we've had out here.

[46:57] SPEAKER C: Was.

[46:59] STEVEN PERLMAN: A young couple did a reveal party. Oh, you know what a reveal party is?

[47:05] ALAN GRIFFIN: That's determining the size of a baby, right?

[47:09] STEVEN PERLMAN: Right. And they used firecrackers.

[47:12] ALAN GRIFFIN: Oh, no.

[47:13] STEVEN PERLMAN: It was one of the biggest fires ever.

[47:16] ALAN GRIFFIN: Ah, yeah. That's terrible.

[47:19] STEVEN PERLMAN: People, the one that was last month I referred to kids, it was right after the fourth kids, 13 year old kids setting off fireworks.

[47:32] ALAN GRIFFIN: So what happens to the people who they, I don't catch that.

[47:39] STEVEN PERLMAN: I mean, I think they are arrested and held the people with the reveal. I think they had to pay damages. stuff. I don't know how much they could possibly do to, for the damage that they did. But I, I think that, you know, 13 year old kids with fireworks, I think the parents need to be able to be responsible. Just similar to what I did, my feelings with, you know, guns when you, you know, young people with guns and killing people, I mean, I'm again, not trying to take anyone's guns away, but I think there's common sense that needs to be.

[48:20] ALAN GRIFFIN: Well, I don't see any need for the high powered, what do they call them? AKs and things like that. I mean, take a hunting gun, fine, but assault rifle, I don't know why anybody needs those.

[48:37] STEVEN PERLMAN: I don't either. because the Rifle Association wants it. It's a lot of money.

[48:44] SPEAKER C: Yes.

[48:45] STEVEN PERLMAN: A lot of money in those.

[48:47] ALAN GRIFFIN: It's all money.

[48:49] STEVEN PERLMAN: Everything's all money.

[48:50] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[48:51] STEVEN PERLMAN: Everything's all money.

[48:54] ALAN GRIFFIN: So do you follow sports at all?

[48:56] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[48:58] STEVEN PERLMAN: Big Yankee fan. Can't get that one taken away from him. He'll never give that up. Football, I'm kind of, I like football and I watch games, but there's no one I'm really married to. And basketball, the Knicks. How about you?

[49:15] ALAN GRIFFIN: Well, for me, I follow the Utah Jazz.

[49:19] STEVEN PERLMAN: Right.

[49:19] ALAN GRIFFIN: And they're pretty terrible right now.

[49:22] STEVEN PERLMAN: When are they gonna win? I mean, this building has gone up long enough.

[49:25] ALAN GRIFFIN: Oh, they've been building it for the last four years and I think I'm gonna die before they get it done. so we'll see what happens.

[49:34] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[49:35] ALAN GRIFFIN: I don't follow the other sports very much except when my grandkids are playing and then I go watch them.

[49:40] STEVEN PERLMAN: Of course. I love going watch the kids play soccer or tennis. But you got a hockey team now, right? The Arizona.

[49:47] SPEAKER C: Yep.

[49:48] ALAN GRIFFIN: We do.

[49:49] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[49:50] ALAN GRIFFIN: Well, Steve, it's been great talking to you. I see we're about.

[49:52] STEVEN PERLMAN: It was really good. I really enjoyed this. So, you know, I had A couple other invites. I was waiting to see how this went. It was something I wanted to do again.

[50:02] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[50:03] STEVEN PERLMAN: Hey, I don't know if we can get together again and do it again, but I definitely enjoyed the conversation.

[50:09] ALAN GRIFFIN: Oh, thank you so much. It's been great.

[50:12] STEVEN PERLMAN: All right. Good day. You too.