Nancy Brown and Alyssa R

[00:00] ALYSSA R.: You.

[00:01] NANCY BROWN: Are you on an Apple product or.

[00:04] SPEAKER C: Or.

[00:05] ALYSSA R.: Yes.

[00:06] NANCY BROWN: Let's go on. So this. I had trouble connecting one time with somebody who was using a PC, and then it's like they. I think they ended up connecting from their iPhone. I I don't know. I don't know, but.

[00:25] ALYSSA R.: I don't I mean, normally I would leave and come back to like see if that makes it better, but I don't know if is that I feel like if I leave it'll be over. You know, like I don't know if you can reconnect.

[00:38] NANCY BROWN: Okay.

[00:42] ALYSSA R.: Come in.

[00:53] NANCY BROWN: Are you there?

[00:55] ALYSSA R.: Yes, I'm not sure which one of us is freezing, but it's definitely one of us.

[01:02] NANCY BROWN: I wish. Yeah, I don't know either.

[01:05] SPEAKER C: So.

[01:07] ALYSSA R.: Maybe I should be on a different browser. I mean, I'm on Safari, which doesn't always do great. Feels like maybe I should be.

[01:16] NANCY BROWN: Well, I usually use Safari, but. when I did the link, I think it went to. Oh, I'm just planking on the other one.

[01:28] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[01:28] ALYSSA R.: Like Chrome.

[01:29] NANCY BROWN: Google Chrome. Yeah, I think it went Chrome.

[01:33] ALYSSA R.: Gotcha.

[01:34] SPEAKER C: So.

[01:36] NANCY BROWN: Now it looks like it's okay.

[01:38] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[01:39] ALYSSA R.: You try like this?

[01:41] NANCY BROWN: Yeah, let's just try it. Yeah.

[01:43] SPEAKER C: Yeah. So.

[01:45] NANCY BROWN: So I'm Nancy.

[01:47] ALYSSA R.: So nice to meet you.

[01:51] NANCY BROWN: You're Alyssa?

[01:52] ALYSSA R.: Alyssa, yep.

[01:54] NANCY BROWN: Alyssa, okay.

[01:56] ALYSSA R.: And yeah, do you want to do the standard questions? Like what did you, what drew you to doing this program or this interview?

[02:05] NANCY BROWN: Well, I think they want us to read our bios to each other first.

[02:09] ALYSSA R.: Thank you.

[02:10] NANCY BROWN: I think I read yours and you read mine.

[02:13] ALYSSA R.: Perfect.

[02:14] NANCY BROWN: So do you want to go first? Do you want me to go first?

[02:18] ALYSSA R.: Sure, no, I can go first. Okay. So you're in the middle of the spectrum politically with interests in spirituality, ecology, and animal welfare. You're the youngest of five children who grew up in a traditional family in Oklahoma. Your connection to the divine and nature is what sustains you. you believe every human being has value and not your place to judge anyone. You don't know the full story. You've retired after a career in healthcare and you think the program is extremely important as we've lost touch with our fellow human beings. You believe that getting to know each other across the divides in our society is part of the solution. Heck yeah.

[03:02] NANCY BROWN: Okay, I'm gonna have to get down. Okay, interest, well, liberal side of the spectrum, interest, a birding naturalist, gardening, growing food, biking. I was raised in suburban Philadelphia. My mom is a family doctor who takes care of everyone, even if they only pay her in rhubarbs or thank you cards. My dad was a French Spanish teacher. I was shaped by my parents' values of kindness and critical thinking, by a spiritual connection to nature, and by experiences in Latin America. I lived in Latin America for four years and am married to a Peruvian American immigrant. Okay. So where in Latin America did you live?

[03:59] ALYSSA R.: I lived in Mexico and Argentina and Costa Rica. Yeah, it was one full year. Nicaragua, I'm like, there's something else missing. It was in Nicaragua in the Peace Corps and then a year working at a field station on the beach doing like nature, education, nature tourism in Northwestern Mexico.

[04:33] NANCY BROWN: Okay, so you were in the Peace Corps?

[04:35] ALYSSA R.: Yeah, yeah, right out of college.

[04:38] NANCY BROWN: Fascinating. What did you think of that?

[04:41] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[04:44] ALYSSA R.: I got so much out of it. Like I feel like the chance to live in a small town and really connect with people and, like, learn the language and understand the culture better. It was really rich. I do. I guess I have complicated feelings about like, is the Peace Corps, like, we spend so much more money on war and, like, is it really, like, more of a. a PR thing than really like commitment to international development, especially because I was so young, right? I was 22. What skills did I really bring to the table in that moment? I mean, I think I did some useful things, but I think it, yeah, it's kind of more of like an intern than like a professional. My husband actually, so I met my husband in the Peace Corps. He grew up outside of DC, but he had already been teaching for like 10 years. So he brought more like actual skill and experience to the work.

[05:56] NANCY BROWN: Okay. Okay.

[05:57] ALYSSA R.: I'm curious about your connection, your spiritual connection with nature, and like when did that form for you or have you always felt that?

[06:09] NANCY BROWN: I think it's always been a big part of my life. It's always, yeah. I think it really is what sustained me through much of my life. As I've gotten older and have been able to understand things more, I've finally been able to realize and accept I came from an abusive home. so nature is what kept me going. Yeah. And my connection to animals is what kept me going. It was very important to me. And it has just grown and still continues to be a very important part of my life. For a number of years, I raised horses and the connection with the horses. I raised, actually, I raised Peruvian Pasos.

[07:08] SPEAKER C: Oh, cool.

[07:10] NANCY BROWN: And my connection with the horses is, is, was really important. Horses, I think, you know, they have the horse therapy and stuff that they do with people. Horses can have a very grounding, stabilizing influence on a person, but really.

[07:30] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[07:30] NANCY BROWN: Nature. Nature is just very, very important to me. And seeing the, the threat that the natural world is under, it just breaks my heart that we keep destroying the Earth the way we do. Thinking especially, you know, obviously, I think we're both Probably not real fans of a certain person in charge in our country now. So it's like they're going backwards instead of forwards. And also in our commitment to the world, I mean, just as if America doesn't already have more money than just about any place else. And, you know, it's like, we're being taken advantage of. How much money do you think we need? You know, so. Yeah, yeah.

[08:30] ALYSSA R.: For me, that brings to mind, like, the income inequality. Like, I don't think people feel wealthy.

[08:36] SPEAKER C: Here.

[08:38] ALYSSA R.: Maybe largely because of, like, income inequality or, like, the way that wealth is seems important socially for status. you know, so people can wind up feeling, I sort of try to understand that the MAGA base can feel disenfranchised because they are, they have been left out of economic progress, at least to.

[09:07] SPEAKER C: Some.

[09:09] ALYSSA R.: Components of that base. But yeah, to blame that, that I think is just really successful scapegoating on their part to blame immigrants and the rest of the world. as if, you know, that's the pride.

[09:23] NANCY BROWN: And what they're ending up doing is taking away the middle class. They're creating, you know, ultra rich, tiny percentage, and then the rest of America is getting poor.

[09:38] ALYSSA R.: Yes.

[09:39] NANCY BROWN: And I guess the MAGA base doesn't see that.

[09:43] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[09:46] ALYSSA R.: I don't know. Have you talked to any truly conservative or Trump supporters through this program?

[09:55] SPEAKER C: No.

[09:56] NANCY BROWN: And I've been wondering why there don't seem to be any, but then this is a program through, you know, PBS and NPR, I guess.

[10:09] SPEAKER C: So.

[10:11] NANCY BROWN: They are pretty much considered enemies by the conservative group.

[10:15] ALYSSA R.: Yeah.

[10:15] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[10:16] NANCY BROWN: Which is, is. I had hoped to be able to, to, you know, listen to that a little bit because some of it just, I, I don't understand. Sorry. That's one of my dogs. We like dogs. So are you in Pennsylvania now?

[10:34] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[10:35] ALYSSA R.: No, I'm in Massachusetts.

[10:37] NANCY BROWN: Oh, okay.

[10:38] ALYSSA R.: My folks are still in Pennsylvania.

[10:42] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[10:42] ALYSSA R.: How about you?

[10:44] NANCY BROWN: I'm in Oklahoma.

[10:45] SPEAKER C: Oklahoma.

[10:46] ALYSSA R.: Where you grew up.

[10:47] NANCY BROWN: Yeah. Actually kind of a rural area just outside of Oklahoma City. So not really rural. Rural. But I'm. I I opted at one point I moved to a. I'm in a really small little house out on Five Acres.

[11:03] SPEAKER C: Uh huh.

[11:03] NANCY BROWN: Oh, lovely. You know, and I just missed being out. I had been on 75 acres and when I was my husband passed away a long time ago, but when I was married, we were raising the horses together and stuff. And then it was after he had already passed that the whole place burned in a wildfire.

[11:27] ALYSSA R.: Oh, man.

[11:29] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[11:30] NANCY BROWN: So I moved into town.

[11:34] ALYSSA R.: What a huge loss to, like, you know, to lose your partner and then to lose your place.

[11:39] NANCY BROWN: Oh, yeah.

[11:41] SPEAKER C: Yeah. And.

[11:44] NANCY BROWN: I was already kind of in the process of looking at, I needed to move, but, and luckily I was because I didn't lose any horses or anything. I would have been devastated with that because we got evacuated and all of that. But the change to sitting in a backyard and I don't know what it is in Massachusetts, but in Oklahoma, maybe it's because of all the wind we have. I don't know. But, but everybody has stockade fences around their yards. So you go out and it's sort of like. I didn't really get into sitting and looking at the stockade fence when I went out in my yard. So, one thing I like about here is I can see the sunrise and I can see the sunset.

[12:36] ALYSSA R.: Yeah, yeah. And it does seem like why would you live on the Great Plains if you can't have a sense of that, of the horizon, right?

[12:47] NANCY BROWN: Right, right. So in Massachusetts, what kind of, yeah.

[12:52] ALYSSA R.: So we do have, we have fence around the backyard, but we have a second floor porch where we can look out over this marsh.

[13:03] SPEAKER C: Oh.

[13:04] ALYSSA R.: So we do have like, and then out of the front of the house, we're just looking at other houses basically in the road, but at least we have this like little bit of horizon. off the back porch and the marsh is really beautiful. There's always birds. We have like a scope set up and we're like a little notebook where we write down like the egret and the... We saw a bunch of plover recently. The great blue heron comes through. So just like feeling like, I don't know, it feels really lucky after having lived Like I felt like we used to have to go out and find birds and like go out into nature, but here it feels like we get, we're living in a small town, but also have nature nearby.

[13:51] NANCY BROWN: Okay. Yeah, it's nice.

[13:56] ALYSSA R.: And the gardening definitely. Did you talk about gardening in your.

[14:02] NANCY BROWN: I didn't really, I would like to be able, I would like to be able to start a vegetable garden. the one difficulty with the place I live now is, and I didn't really realize it when I moved here, but if you stop and look at the terrain, I'm at one of the highest points. I mean, it is pretty flat. It's kind of hilly, but little hills. And so the problem here is the West wind. just blows. So I haven't been able to figure out a place where I could plant a vegetable garden and it not just get destroyed by the wind. Yeah.

[14:48] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[14:49] NANCY BROWN: Wow.

[14:50] SPEAKER C: Yeah. Yeah. I. We.

[14:53] ALYSSA R.: I've thought we lived in Arizona before, so I've thought about, like, the baking sun, but I've not thought. I haven't thought about just the wind tearing through and. ripping it up.

[15:03] NANCY BROWN: That's right.

[15:04] SPEAKER C: Right.

[15:04] NANCY BROWN: And with climate change, you know, I mean, we definitely have tornadoes here.

[15:09] ALYSSA R.: Yeah.

[15:10] NANCY BROWN: And this year was not a bad year for tornadoes, but there can be a lot of damage. There can be a lot of hail. I mean, you know, golf ball size hail. I mean, there were some storms this year that they said. not widespread, but had like softball size hail. And we've had an unusual year in that we've had so much rain, but we've had a lot of flooding.

[15:40] SPEAKER C: Yeah. Yeah.

[15:43] NANCY BROWN: So who knows?

[15:45] ALYSSA R.: Yeah, these bigger, we're definitely seeing that too. Like, like what they said would happen, you know, more, more rain, like in a given rain event, like more rain is falling.

[15:56] SPEAKER C: Mm-.

[15:56] ALYSSA R.: And we're like some localized flooding and stuff. Yeah, I do, there is one, I do have back to the subject of Trump Republicans. I do have one guy who's all the way over, he's like a retired in my list of potential matches. And so I was like, I'll just do a couple other ones and then I'll try to invite him. And I think I would really try to stay to their guidelines of like just talking about our lives. for a while before, you know, trying to talk about politics, because I feel like that just goes off the rails so quickly. But, like, this whole idea of. I love the whole premise of this, that, like, we get to know each other as people, you know, and that it's not this sort of, like, alienating separation that these, like, two sets of talking points seem to get us really. stuck on.

[16:54] SPEAKER C: Right.

[16:55] NANCY BROWN: And then, yeah, it's just to really, we don't talk to each other very much in the different political camps and to really understand, you know, what that person's reasonings or thoughts are, too.

[17:12] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[17:12] NANCY BROWN: I think would be interesting. Absolutely. yeah. So I thought it was interesting that you're married to a Peruvian. Did he. Was he a child when he immigrated here or his parents.

[17:28] ALYSSA R.: His dad came on a work visa and he was born like two years later. Okay. In the 60s in DC, and then. he grew up with a lot of his cousins and everything, like in the greater DC area, but now everyone's spread out in Texas and California and Florida. Yeah, and in some ways, like we're from very similar backgrounds. Like we both grew up, I grew up in the suburbs of Philly. He grew up in the suburbs of DC in these middle class families. he's, you know, similar education. And then he has, you know, this cultural background in terms of, like, connection to the place, like connection to Peru and the Andes mountains and to the food and, you know, like, we do come across cultural differences. But we also have a lot of things in common because we were raised, he was raised in a very assimilationist era, too, where his parents and everybody else wanted him to speak English and wanted him to fit in in school and everything. And so, yeah, it's just.

[18:52] NANCY BROWN: Kind of.

[18:53] ALYSSA R.: Complex from that point of view. We have friends here in all the kinds of ways that you can be an immigrant, you know, like Irish, European immigrants and undocumented Honduran immigrant friends and work visa, like someone who teaches at a university on a work visa from Mexico. So it's, I guess I, and, and we've done over time, too, like.

[19:30] SPEAKER C: A.

[19:30] ALYSSA R.: Good amount of work and volunteering. When we lived in Arizona, we would, the Border Patrol would release families on humanitarian parole, like asylum seekers. And through Catholic charities, we would like help them get bus tickets and food and showers and stuff to see their families or to like move, they were, they would have like immigration, asylum immigration proceedings in like wherever in Boston or Houston. And so we would like be helping them get to those destinations. I don't know if have you had any, like what is the Are there immigrant communities where you live and like, what has your experience been like?

[20:28] NANCY BROWN: Well, I haven't had much experience with current immigrant policies. I was asking because my second oldest.

[20:37] SPEAKER C: Brother.

[20:39] NANCY BROWN: Is married to a woman from Peru. And he actually lived in Peru and for about 10 years and Uruguay for about five years. uh huh. Before they moved here. Now, it's different because she is from an extremely wealthy family, though extremely, you know, and I, I was in Peru for about a month right after I graduated from high school. And, you know, I, it really bothered me to see all of the poverty and the people. I mean, you see a piece of cardboard and, you know, somebody's living living under it. But I would have to say it didn't seem to bother my brother.

[21:25] SPEAKER C: You.

[21:25] NANCY BROWN: Know, and we don't come from an upper class background. I mean, my family is probably pretty middle middle class, you know, so this group of family is, you know, ultra wealthy. So it's a little, It's a little strange.

[21:46] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[21:47] NANCY BROWN: I mean, I, you know, I, my, my sister-in-law Ludo, I love her. They live in Tulsa, which is just a couple hours from here. They have three wonderful boys who are grown now and married and everything. Since I was the youngest, everybody has already grown and out there because I'm already older. Or old.

[22:12] SPEAKER C: So.

[22:14] NANCY BROWN: But yeah, so it's, and my family is a little strange, I guess, in that my brother married his childhood sweetheart, and then the next brother married his, the woman from Peru. The next brother married a woman from Okinawa, Miyoko. and then the next brother married a woman from Taiwan. Wow.

[22:40] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[22:41] NANCY BROWN: So it's an interesting family.

[22:46] ALYSSA R.: United Nations family.

[22:48] NANCY BROWN: It's been interesting because I never would have realized in Peru, Orientals were kind of considered like the blacks were here in the 60s, and then also. I didn't realize that the Japanese absolutely hate the Chinese. So that was all very.

[23:15] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[23:16] NANCY BROWN: You know, just. I had never seen, you know, my. My sister-in-law when she met the Japanese one, when she met the one from Taiwan, it was like. I don't think the one from Taiwan, her name is chewing Sue, but she took the name of Margaret, so I don't think Margaret could have, I don't know, smiled properly. She could have done anything. It was okay.

[23:44] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[23:45] NANCY BROWN: So, you know, did that work out over time?

[23:49] ALYSSA R.: Did that, like, relationships build slowly?

[23:52] NANCY BROWN: Or what happened? Well, no, my brothers don't get along. I have the one brother in Tulsa, another brother that was in California for a long time. He's in Texas now. The brother that was in Oklahoma City has passed away. And then the, and then one that lives in South Carolina. So the one that married the, the woman from Taiwan pretty much just kind of, you know, my family wasn't a healthy family, so he pretty much got out of Dodge. Yeah.

[24:31] SPEAKER C: Yeah. Yeah.

[24:34] ALYSSA R.: That's similar to my mom's. My mom's story. My mom's childhood home was not a good place, and they haven't. There have been long periods of estrangement with her brothers. you know, as they just are all trying to navigate that trauma that they grew up with and their own ways and everything. It makes it hard, I think.

[24:57] NANCY BROWN: It does make it hard. I mean, I have a good rule. My brothers just do not talk to each other for the most part. I, you know, I don't know what it is, but I was, I've pretty well maintained a good relation. The oldest brother I do not have anything to do with and I will not. I, this is very complicated, but I cared for my mother for about 15 years as she got older and everything. And when she was starting to run out of money, he accused me of stealing from her and abusing her. So I, I don't have anything to do with him. But the young brother in South Carolina. I talk with the widow, the one from Japan in Oklahoma City kind of side it with the older brothers. So that part of the family have nothing to do with the ones in Tulsa. I do have a connection with them, but we're not real close. My brother there now has in stage Parkinson's. So. I'm trying to go up a little bit more often. And really, his wife, Ludo, who's from such a wealthy family and everything, I mean, I've been amazed. She has taken extremely good care of him.

[26:21] ALYSSA R.: Oh, good.

[26:22] SPEAKER C: Yeah. Yeah.

[26:23] NANCY BROWN: So that's been good. That's good. Do you have brothers and sisters?

[26:28] ALYSSA R.: I have a younger sister who lives in St. Petersburg, Florida. And we've always been close. She actually just invited me to therapy with her to like learn to communicate better. So I feel like there must be something on her mind about how we communicate. So I'm, you know, staying open to that. I haven't felt like I'm the older, I can be like the boss, the older sister. I feel like I'm probably more of a pain. in her neck than she is in mine. So I'll try to be a better older sister, whatever way she wants me to be.

[27:06] NANCY BROWN: So you're going to do therapy together?

[27:09] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[27:09] ALYSSA R.: So this will be the first time it's happening next week.

[27:13] NANCY BROWN: Well, that should be interesting.

[27:15] ALYSSA R.: Yeah.

[27:16] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[27:16] ALYSSA R.: I'm also looking forward to it. Nervous slash looking forward to it.

[27:21] NANCY BROWN: Well, I hope it ends up bringing the two of you closer together. Thank you.

[27:25] ALYSSA R.: Thanks so much.

[27:27] NANCY BROWN: Do you work now?

[27:29] ALYSSA R.: I do, yeah. My contract got canceled, but through October, I'm still working for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. Okay. That does, they do the weather forecast, but I work for the part of NOAA that does marine protected areas. So like the sanctuaries, there's one here in Massachusetts that like, it's like an underwater park that protects whales and seabirds and that kind of thing. So there's a network of like, it's less than 20 of these marine parks around the country. So I'm working for that program. But yes, not for much longer because their budget was cut.

[28:16] SPEAKER C: Um.

[28:18] ALYSSA R.: Yeah, but I don't feel, I mean, I'm kind of in a, I worked for at one place for 14 years. And since then I've been like, it's been bumpy, like I've been in a year or two years in places. Um, but I don't know, overall I feel good. I feel good that I'm not in that 14 year long one anymore. I feel like I'm in a transition, but that it's going come out okay on the other side.

[28:48] NANCY BROWN: Is that program going to be able to continue?

[28:52] ALYSSA R.: Yes, yes. It looks like, I feel like they're just gonna, it's like a retrenching kind of, like they'll be only able to do the basic stuff that needs to happen at these places. not the new programming. And then there are, because of the retirement incentives and the firing of all the probationary employees that happened in February, there's a lot of people doing double and triple duty. They're like the small boats manager and the superintendent of two of the parks. So I just feel like burnout, like I don't know how long, like the thing is continuing to function, but I just don't know, like if it doesn't shift, there's gonna be more burnout. And it's, and like, I think these, these things are like complicated politically. Some of them are like, are really about have restrictions on commercial fishing. And so that really puts them at odds with like Trump and the economic development and the fisheries stuff. But other ones of them are very like there's one called Wisconsin Shipwreck Coast that is about all these like maritime heritage, all these like beautiful shipwrecks from the 1800s that are under the water there. And so it's like a very.

[30:25] SPEAKER C: I.

[30:25] ALYSSA R.: Don'T know, a European heritage that they want to celebrate and there's a lot of tourism and economic development. at that there. So, you know, there's support in the Trump administration for, like, some of what the program's doing, but not all of it. But I don't think they're, like, nobody's even acting, like, smart. I don't know what the right way to say this is.

[30:53] SPEAKER C: Like.

[30:56] ALYSSA R.: If I were, like, in the Trump administration's political appointees shoes, I would be like, cutting with scissors and, like, figuring out which programs align with my priorities and which ones don't. But instead, they just, like, slash, like, broadly and blindly across the whole program. Like, the, the retirement incentives went out to everyone. The probationary employees were fired everywhere. So it was just like, we're just going to shrink the government, I guess, is what the mood they were in in, like, February, March, April. But they didn't shrink it to match any kind of, like, policy agenda. They just, shrunken like, to like hobble it. So I don't know. I just don't know. And I'm not high enough up at all to see like what those conversations are like. I just like see what the impact looks like around me, like on the different teams, especially in the northeast where I am being. And then Sorry, I don't need to go on, but it was really interesting to me that in that one of these sanctuaries where they have really good relationships with the local community and there are a lot like MAGA supporters that love the sanctuary and the team and they were explaining to them like, yeah, we're not going to be able to do this project this year because of the Trump budget cuts. and they were like, oh no, like you were caught up in that, like we didn't even think you were feds. Like we liked you so much, you were so embedded in our community that we didn't think you were those bad feds. So it's funny how it's just like.

[32:35] SPEAKER C: This.

[32:37] ALYSSA R.: Bad reputation that the federal government has that I don't know, that it needs to shake, like, but I don't know how, like if it needs to reform its behavior in certain ways and places and also just do a better job communicating the thing, the popular things that it is doing.

[32:54] NANCY BROWN: Yeah, I mean, it just, it, it, it makes no sense to me either. And how some of the people that are really, like, MAGA don't understand that what, what MAGA is doing.

[33:11] ALYSSA R.: Yeah.

[33:11] NANCY BROWN: And, you know, I I'm really concerned about, like, with the with our history. They're one, like with the Smithsonian, they're wanting to, you know, erase part of it. Anyway, I read a thing just yesterday or today that said something about just this little statement of, I don't know if it was Trump or somebody in the administration that sad. The portrayal of slavery at the Smithsonian was too harsh. I mean, how could anything be too harsh?

[33:59] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[33:59] NANCY BROWN: Slavery was a horrible thing.

[34:03] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[34:03] NANCY BROWN: It's like, oh, my gosh. What do you think?

[34:07] SPEAKER C: Yeah. Yeah.

[34:09] ALYSSA R.: And you just, it just like seems like being asked to be let off the hook or something again. And I get like, don't, don't tell me these bad things that, you know.

[34:18] NANCY BROWN: Yeah, and wanting to rewrite it like, oh, slavery wasn't that bad. We fed them, we clothed them, you might want to leave out. We raped them and we murdered them and, you know. But it just is like, oh my gosh. yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, I have one thing I, I really struggle with. I, I do not, you know, this, this whole thing of white supremacy. I mean, I can see maybe historically the, you know, but, but really.

[34:58] SPEAKER C: I.

[34:59] NANCY BROWN: Just don't see where people think because of this color of their skin. skin. They are better than other people. It makes no sense to me at all.

[35:10] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[35:11] ALYSSA R.: Yeah.

[35:12] NANCY BROWN: You know?

[35:15] ALYSSA R.: Yes.

[35:19] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[35:21] ALYSSA R.: But, like, it's so. I don't know how to, like, I agree. It makes no rational sense, and it's just like. this made up.

[35:35] SPEAKER C: Idea.

[35:37] ALYSSA R.: And then it, but I just feel this strong backlash against all these efforts to try to, like, undo it and, and heal us. And so, like, I, like, wonder, like, what is the right way for white people? I think it's good for white people, too. Like, I don't think white supremacy is good for white people. Like, I think it. kind of like hurts us and alienates us from people that we care about and could relate to as other.

[36:04] NANCY BROWN: Yeah, I mean, it makes me ashamed to be white.

[36:07] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[36:10] NANCY BROWN: So, and, and then looking at what we're doing to the immigrants. Oh, my God. It's like they just don't even think of them as human beings. Yeah. yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just so sad. It is.

[36:28] ALYSSA R.: It is. It is. And, like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know what to do. I feel, like, so strongly that we have to do something, but then I also don't know. I mean, policy change and political change, but, like, this kind of, like. hatred. Like, I don't know. Like, I just assume it must come out of some kind of, like, pain, right?

[36:55] SPEAKER C: Like, the.

[36:56] ALYSSA R.: The people who are, like, advancing, leaning into white supremacy must feel, like, really insecure and not worth. Not worthy. Maybe. I don't know if this is the right angle to think about it, but, like, what makes them feel healed and whole and. And, like. happy to be white, but not like better than like kind of like whole and integral. Like I'm a person with this particular family history in this particular culture and I live in this way, but I don't feel better or worse than everybody else about it. You know, like how do we feel that?

[37:32] NANCY BROWN: I kind of wonder if it doesn't come from the whole Western civilization and the changes that occurred with the Industrial Revolution that ended up saying, like, everybody's supposed to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Well, that doesn't work.

[37:56] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[37:56] NANCY BROWN: I mean, some people can, some people can't. It doesn't really. I don't think it has anything to do with the capabilities of different people. It's just. horrible things happen in life.

[38:09] ALYSSA R.: Yeah, it's like luck a lot of the times.

[38:12] NANCY BROWN: Yeah, yeah. And I know a friend of mine just came back, took, went on a vacation to Norway is where they went. And she was saying that it just seemed like the people there were happier, more content, more secure. because they have a big safety net. They are very heavily taxed. Yes. But they have a big safety net. And here it's not. There is like, there's, there was a little bit of a safety net, but less and less. You're on your own. If something happens to you, tough.

[38:55] ALYSSA R.: Yeah.

[38:55] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[38:56] ALYSSA R.: Yes.

[38:58] NANCY BROWN: So I think people are, especially if they don't have a lot of money, are very insecure.

[39:04] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[39:04] NANCY BROWN: And they're afraid.

[39:06] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[39:06] NANCY BROWN: And so that makes them lash out at somebody that they think maybe is taking what was supposed to be theirs.

[39:13] ALYSSA R.: Yeah. Yes, yes. I think that's a good analysis. And also that it, like, it makes you lean on your in-group more, like, I don't know if I'm gonna be okay, so, like, I'm gonna, you know, like my family or my church or my immediate community is who I'm gonna, like, trust to get me through. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna trust the broader system or the broader state because they've shown that they're, you know, I can't lean on the net safety net.

[39:41] NANCY BROWN: Well, and I think our smaller communities are, I think we're losing our communities.

[39:46] SPEAKER C: Yeah. Yeah.

[39:48] ALYSSA R.: Is that where you live?

[39:50] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[39:51] NANCY BROWN: Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm older and I would, I'll probably, I'm kind of recovering from a knee and hip replacement, but I'll probably start volunteering somewhere. But as far as really knowing anybody, I mean, I don't have much connection with my family because of all of the, yes, the history there. And you really do realize you are very isolated and very much on your own. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[40:22] ALYSSA R.: And with work, work provides that, but if you're retired, like you are, you're not.

[40:30] NANCY BROWN: Yeah, yeah. And I worked with people. I mean, I was around people all the time, but in healthcare and stuff, but that doesn't affect your individual life, you know?

[40:42] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[40:43] ALYSSA R.: Yeah. I. Yeah.

[40:46] NANCY BROWN: Go ahead. I was going to say it has surprised me how, as I've gotten older, how really unseen you start to feel. I mean, you're not an important part of the society anymore.

[41:01] ALYSSA R.: Yeah, that's so awful. I think, like, it doesn't Make any sense because, like, the wisdom and the, like, the knowledge of place and everything is so much richer. I do. Part of my work means that I, I work with indigenous communities and, like, the love and care around Elders is just, like, so beautiful and makes so much sense. And, like, they, they put extra effort into, like, having Elders spend time with young people and kids and. It just makes, I wish we lived in a society like that. I don't know if those European countries have some of the same thing. And I think for specific, especially for women, like the society just kind of like disappears us after, right, a certain age, like after you're not reproductive anymore or whatever, it's like you're done.

[41:58] NANCY BROWN: And to me it is frightening as to what's going to happen with women. as they started focusing on this, you know, the decrease in the birth rate. I mean, are they, you know, in this whole, like, the natalist people that are into that, that's kind of, you know, having this, having as many kids as you can have so that we have enough of the, you know, the white, pure population.

[42:27] ALYSSA R.: Yeah.

[42:28] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[42:28] NANCY BROWN: And really, you know, by getting rid of the immigrants, we're getting rid of our population growth.

[42:35] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[42:36] NANCY BROWN: It's in the young immigrant communities that families are large and you supply and you replenish your population. Yeah.

[42:45] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[42:45] ALYSSA R.: If they could just see humans as humans, you know, there wouldn't be any problem.

[42:51] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[42:51] NANCY BROWN: So, and instead they're going out and it's sort of like, I wonder how much food is rotting in the fields.

[43:00] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[43:04] NANCY BROWN: Yeah. So I, it's just, it's really kind of crazy.

[43:11] ALYSSA R.: It is.

[43:12] SPEAKER C: It is.

[43:12] ALYSSA R.: A friend of mine told me recently that he, he thinks that, like, everyone should really feel, like, should feel the food system, like, the food system in particular, collapse because of the lack of immigrant labor. And maybe that would, like, drive us to change policy or whatever, which I understand, but then I just can't help thinking about the human cost. Like, I just don't want them to detain, like, one more person, like, you know, like, but somehow, I. Maybe it's just in communicating what's already happened, like, we just need to be more clear about how much we depend on immigrant labor and, you know, treating people with.

[43:53] NANCY BROWN: And what about your friend from your friends from Honduras that are undocumented?

[43:58] ALYSSA R.: Yeah, yeah. They're, I mean, I've heard stories of some people who are, like, super afraid to, like, go out and work or go to the food pantry to get food or do anything, but other people who are just still, like, going about their lives with just, like, more stress and worry about, you know, and, like, there's a lot of, like, sharing of information and also misinformation about like where ICE is and whether they're gonna get picked up. This one friend of mine, Blanca, had, she's the hardest life story. Like her parents left her at the orphanage as a baby 'cause she had polio and they couldn't take care of her. And then she came across the border illegally and like broke her other leg and was like left alone in like a wheelchair in an office in the detention center because they didn't have any like handicap accessible places for like a week. She's eventually made herself, she's, oops, five minutes. So she's just, she pursued her asylum case, but then it was denied and she had a stay of deportation and then that expired and then she had an ICE check-in last week she had to go to the offices, but she's so well connected. and beloved that there were like 300 people. We all went with her to the and stood outside the ice building and sang and stuff. And she came back out. They just gave her like another appointment in another month and they're gonna review possibly extending her stay. But that's just like one person, right? Like while we were there, we watched all these other people go in for their check-ins and like we know that people are being deported, but I guess it helps to like, I don't know, feel connection to one case and feel like one person that's that we're saying like this person's part of our community and we don't want her to be returned to Honduras. She spoke really movingly there that day about like, you know, because she's an orphan, or, you know, abandoned. Like, she's like, nobody, like, if they, if you fly me to Hunter, it's like, nobody's gonna pick me up. Like, there's no one to pick me.

[46:16] NANCY BROWN: Up at the airport.

[46:18] ALYSSA R.: There's no bed for me to sleep in. There's no, like, like, I'd have to begin. There's nothing. There's nothing. Like, yeah, like, I just have to begin all over again in a country with, like, higher rates of violence against women. And so I don't know, hoping for some sanity. and like the hearts of the people who are making those decisions. But really it's just like a broken immigration system because she also doesn't have any pathway. Like it's really obvious to me that she belongs here with us, but there's no legal pathway for her to follow.

[46:50] NANCY BROWN: Yeah. So why are we not reforming our immigration system where people can come and You know, I don't know, come and work for 10-15 years and then you can be a citizen if you stay clean and you're working, you're paying taxes.

[47:08] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[47:08] NANCY BROWN: You know, I don't know. I mean, I, to train the horses at one point, I brought a family over from Peru that were from a little village. He was a horse trainer. She picked asparagus. That was the only work available. uh huh. And they came with their two kids, and now they're down in, in Houston, Texas area, and she owns her own Peruvian restaurant. He's working in a factory, but he loves it.

[47:39] ALYSSA R.: Okay.

[47:40] NANCY BROWN: But their son is working on his Masters in Psychology, and their daughter is. She's into design, and she went to a fashion design school in New York and. She's trying to find work in New York, but they are a wonderful family. They are an asset to our community. All of them have become citizens except Hermes, the father. He still has just his green card. But I think with the way things are changing, he's going to go ahead and get his citizenship. But thank God the other three did. But they're an asset to our society.

[48:18] ALYSSA R.: Absolutely.

[48:19] NANCY BROWN: But it was, I always say that was my retirement plan, was their lawyer fees and doing that. It was so expensive. Mm-. Oh. And took so many years.

[48:34] ALYSSA R.: Yeah. Yes. But why should it have to be so hard?

[48:38] SPEAKER C: Yeah. Yeah.

[48:40] NANCY BROWN: I mean, the whole thing is insane. yeah.

[48:46] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[48:48] ALYSSA R.: I hope they're your retirement plan in the other way, too. Like, they'll take care of you.

[48:54] NANCY BROWN: Oh, well, I don't know about that.

[48:56] ALYSSA R.: But now that they're doing fine, but.

[48:58] NANCY BROWN: I've kind of gotten to a point in life where I just want to live very simply. I don't really need a lot. Yeah, I I just.

[49:07] SPEAKER C: I.

[49:07] NANCY BROWN: The materialism, I think it's ridiculous.

[49:10] ALYSSA R.: Yeah, you know, it is, it is, it doesn't make me happy. We're about to get cut off.

[49:15] NANCY BROWN: Yes, yes.

[49:17] ALYSSA R.: I'm so grateful for your time today and the chance to connect. It really meant a lot.

[49:22] NANCY BROWN: Yeah, yeah. If you want to stay in touch, I mean, I've had another person that he's been emailing me some and I respond, so. Okay. So do you want to try and stay in touch?

[49:36] ALYSSA R.: Sure, yeah, that'd be great.

[49:40] NANCY BROWN: What's your email?

[49:43] ALYSSA R.: ###### ##########@#####.###, like #-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-#-# #-#-#-#-#-# ## #####. And #-#-#-#. Thank you.

[50:00] NANCY BROWN: I'll email you. I'll email you so you get mine. Okay.

[50:04] ALYSSA R.: Okay. Perfect.

[50:05] NANCY BROWN: Well, actually, I think.

[50:09] SPEAKER C: It.

[50:09] NANCY BROWN: We can continue to talk. I think it's just not.

[50:12] ALYSSA R.: Oh, I see. Not recording. I see.

[50:15] NANCY BROWN: Yeah.

[50:15] ALYSSA R.: Okay.

[50:16] NANCY BROWN: Yeah.

[50:19] ALYSSA R.: I do probably have to get back to work anyways.

[50:22] NANCY BROWN: Okay. Well, do you want my email?

[50:24] ALYSSA R.: Yes, I do.

[50:26] NANCY BROWN: Okay, so it's. # # # # # #####@#####.###.

[50:35] ALYSSA R.: Okay, perfect.

[50:37] NANCY BROWN: Because I was at your mom was a family practice. I'm a retired rheumatologist.

[50:43] ALYSSA R.: Gotcha. I was like, room, it must be.

[50:45] NANCY BROWN: Yeah. Yeah. But I've really enjoyed talking with you.

[50:50] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[50:51] NANCY BROWN: So me too. So we can stay in touch. I mean, I know sometimes that happens and sometimes it doesn't, but I have very much enjoyed getting to know you and listening to you. I hope I didn't talk too much.

[51:05] ALYSSA R.: No, that was the same. I hope I didn't talk too much and I really enjoyed the connection.

[51:14] NANCY BROWN: Well, thank you. Hopefully our world.

[51:19] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[51:20] NANCY BROWN: Will not be so totally insane. But I do believe that, you know, I do believe in God and a God. And, you know, I don't believe in really denominations, but I think the Divine, there is a plan and we have no idea what it is.

[51:39] SPEAKER C: Yes.

[51:39] ALYSSA R.: Just, like, keep showing up with love and compassion and understanding and. something all things will happen as they're meant to.

[51:49] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[51:49] NANCY BROWN: Have you ever heard of the CAC?

[51:52] SPEAKER C: No.

[51:53] NANCY BROWN: So that's what that place is. The Center for Action and Contemplation out of New Mexico. I did their, what they call a living school where we. So I'm Catholic, but not really practicing because I'm fed up with. the paternalism of the church, for sure. But this play, it's a Franciscan, Richard Rohr, that runs it. It's very non-denominational they just accept the truths and all the different religions. And it really emphasizes the mystical, contemplative part of spirituality.

[52:32] ALYSSA R.: Yeah, I love that.

[52:34] NANCY BROWN: So if you're interested, look them up. They have a daily meditation.

[52:38] ALYSSA R.: Yeah, I'll check that out.

[52:40] NANCY BROWN: Yeah.

[52:40] ALYSSA R.: My spiritual practice these days, it was. It's definitely always nature. But then I did Buddhist meditation for a couple of years, and lately, I've been doing, like, Insight dialogue Buddhist meditation, where you have, like, a partner and you do your mindfully connecting and. And talking. Just that. The contemplation part of what you're talking about and, like, the really. being with the experience resonates with me.

[53:09] NANCY BROWN: Okay, well, you might like this. I mean, we they in the living school thing, it was a one-year course that we did that was online that you could do. I mean, they've referenced all different tiknot Han, the different, you know, and other Christian parts and the Dalai Lama and all the different ones. I mean, just. you know, just wisdom from wherever you can find it.

[53:40] ALYSSA R.: Yes, exactly. Exactly.

[53:43] NANCY BROWN: I'll let you get to work.

[53:45] ALYSSA R.: Thank you. Thanks for that. I'll check it out.

[53:48] SPEAKER C: All right.

[53:48] NANCY BROWN: Okay. Take care.

[53:50] ALYSSA R.: Bye.

[53:51] NANCY BROWN: Bye.