John Oliveira and Yixin Zhao

[00:00] SPEAKER A: There we go.

[00:00] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Yeah, we both have to start hit that button.

[00:03] SPEAKER A: Great.

[00:07] YIXIN ZHAO: Should we follow the instructions and read the corresponding?

[00:14] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I don't know.

[00:20] YIXIN ZHAO: May I read your part?

[00:21] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I think that's, sorry, I think that's your choice whether to do it or not, whether to read the instructions.

[00:28] SPEAKER A: Okay.

[00:31] YIXIN ZHAO: Let me read your bio and then you can tell me if anything has changed or if you want to add anything.

[00:37] SPEAKER A: Oh.

[00:39] YIXIN ZHAO: So it says here, I'm a 23 year old recently graduated college student who lives in Brick, New Jersey, suburb of New York City. I live in a four member family with my sister, my mother, and my father. Also, I am politically conservative and a Catholic Christian. I believe every human is made in the image of God. Some of my hobbies include biking, using AM/FM radio, and visiting small towns when I can.

[01:06] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Okay, yeah, and that is the bio of mine. And I think everything's accurate except for like my age is mislabeled. I'm 24 years old, not 23, but everything else is correct.

[01:20] SPEAKER A: Okay.

[01:21] YIXIN ZHAO: Happy birthday.

[01:22] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Oh, well, thank you, but it's not my birthday, but.

[01:27] SPEAKER A: Okay.

[01:29] YIXIN ZHAO: Do you wanna read my bio? I forgot what I put actually.

[01:33] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Oh yeah, I could. And yours just says, I volunteer once a week at the hospital up the street because I believe that listening to the stories of others is the beginning of healing for self and others. I cherish conversation and I can't wait to meet you. and then that's all you put.

[01:49] YIXIN ZHAO: Yeah, that's still accurate. Okay, I do want to know why we're both here. So you mentioned you've done a conversation before. Tell me what brought you to this platform.

[02:12] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I think it was because of you know, because with most, like, at least most of the time when I've had conversations on here, it's been about, you know, a mixture of things. Like, it's, it's either been about politics or it's been about, like, personal experiences or, you know, or just, you know, talking about, you know, different, like, places where people live, like, things like that.

[02:39] YIXIN ZHAO: Well, what brought you to your first conversation?

[02:42] SPEAKER A: Here.

[02:43] YIXIN ZHAO: Are you usually a very sociable person? You like to talk to strangers?

[02:47] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I mean, I honestly, no, but it's not that I like to talk to strangers so much, but I think it's because, like, I think I was brought here because I'm interested in talking about, like, politics specifically, but I, of course, I talk about other things other than politics, but yeah.

[03:07] YIXIN ZHAO: Thanks for saying that. I'm reflecting that, like, often when people talk about politics, I'm unsure how to participate. And why is that? I think I tend towards, like, individual experience. And I think sometimes politics can take the form of people saying, like, this is the way it should be. And I'm, slow to say that, but I would love to actually talk about politics with you because it's an offside for me.

[03:45] JOHN OLIVEIRA: You said you would like to talk about politics with me, why?

[03:48] YIXIN ZHAO: Because it's not something I usually talk about with people.

[03:52] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Oh, well.

[03:56] YIXIN ZHAO: And just the reason that I got on this platform is I do like talking to strangers. And I like talking to strangers specifically where we're not just like chatting about the weather or like the score of some sporting event. I like to- oh, I agree with that.

[04:19] SPEAKER A: Yeah.

[04:19] YIXIN ZHAO: So, you know, you mentioned you're a Catholic Christian and, you know, I would love to ask a bit about your faith as well.

[04:27] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Okay.

[04:32] YIXIN ZHAO: Well, there's guidance, but we can just leave it be. Since you brought up politics, like, tell me about one issue that you're really closely watching or something you care a lot about.

[04:46] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I mean, I think something that I care about in politics is you know, more, I care about a lot of local politics and, you know, sometimes national too, but I think more local politics for like New Jersey and New York City, I think, and lately it's been, you know, I don't know where to start with that. I mean, there's been a lot happening. I don't know where to start.

[05:18] YIXIN ZHAO: Well, what's the latest spit that you've come across and you can maybe contextualize it in.

[05:27] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I think one thing that has happened recently is, you know, the new, for example, like the New York, I don't know if you heard about this, but, you know, New York City had a mayor election, a primary election on, back in June, and it was like a But well, and now there's like, you know, after that election, there's still four people that are trying to run for mayor there. And what's it called? And it's like the buy and the names of the people are either it's either Mandami, Cuomo, Siliva or Eric Adams, and it's just between four people.

[06:11] YIXIN ZHAO: Okay. and so how do you connect to that? Like, do you feel like it's actually New York has, like, ranked Choice voting, right?

[06:25] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Yeah, they. They recently started ranked Choice voting, I think.

[06:30] SPEAKER A: Okay.

[06:31] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Which I don't. Which can I just say? I honestly don't understand much about how it works. Ranked Choice voting, but because it started recently, so. what's it called? That's something I, I mean, I can't explain, but I know that they have it.

[06:47] SPEAKER A: Okay.

[06:48] YIXIN ZHAO: Yeah, that's fine. I, I only have a vague notion, but it just means to me that it's not just like you vote for one person and then they count up the votes. It's like you order the preference so that people get almost like partial votes and you get a sense of like, well, who came in second place, who came in third place, and that sends a signal more so than just, you know, who won.

[07:18] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I think I understand.

[07:21] YIXIN ZHAO: Tell me about, like, why this election matters to you personally, or maybe to your community.

[07:30] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Well, I mean, it does. I don't. I wouldn't say it matters to me personally, but because. but it does matter to, like, a family member of mine who, who still lives in New York City. And, you know, she's lived there for, like, 31 years now.

[07:47] SPEAKER A: And.

[07:49] JOHN OLIVEIRA: What'S it called? And it, and it definitely, and it matters just because of all the, you know, illegal immigration problems that have been going on there. And I think that's what I can say?

[08:02] SPEAKER A: Yeah.

[08:03] YIXIN ZHAO: Well, when you say like illegal immigration problems, do you mean like the arrests or do you mean like crime or.

[08:11] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Yeah, I mean crime. I mean like them just being allowed to like, you know, illegal immigrants being allowed to come in. But yeah, both crime and them being allowed.

[08:23] SPEAKER A: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

[08:29] YIXIN ZHAO: It is interesting, I guess, when I think about just national borders and when the lines are drawn, but the climate and wars are also kind of forcing people out of their homes, that it seems like collectively, we might come up with a better strategy for how people might move about. Is your family actually, is your family based in the United States or did they immigrate to the United States?

[09:11] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Okay, I'll tell you that. My, I think my grandparents are, yeah, my grandparents immigrated to the United States, but my parents and I and my sister, we were all born in the United States.

[09:33] YIXIN ZHAO: And what was it like growing up? Where did you grow up?

[09:38] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Oh, that's a good question. I grew up in, well, for the first seven years of my life, I grew up in Harrison, New Jersey. which that's a town by, you know, that's actually not that far from New York City. It's, you know, only like 10 miles away. And then, like, my family moved to, you know, a, I guess a further out like suburb where, you know, there's more forest in, in Randolph, New Jersey. And I lived there for another, I lived there for another 12 years. and then most recently, like in 2020, like we moved here to Brick, New Jersey, where I live now.

[10:23] SPEAKER A: Okay.

[10:26] YIXIN ZHAO: I guess if I give a similar account, I was born in China and I moved to the United States when I was seven. Oh, okay. When I was 18, actually before I was 18, because my parents became citizens. and then I was naturalized. I became a US citizen probably when I was like nine or 10, something like that. Or maybe in my early teens.

[10:52] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Oh, wow. Well, I mean, what could I say? I mean, oh, but you came like, just me straight. Sorry, you became a US citizen like the naturalized legal immigrant way. Like you weren't an illegal immigrant.

[11:06] YIXIN ZHAO: Yeah, that's, I mean, I think, yeah, that's true for the most part.

[11:12] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Oh, okay. And yeah, and I, and I just say that because I have nothing, you know, I have nothing against that. And like, you know, thank you for coming to our country. Can I just say.

[11:22] YIXIN ZHAO: Yes, you know, if you were to welcome, if your job became to like welcome newly naturalized immigrants, what would you want to share with them about the country that they have just gained citizenship to.

[11:38] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I would say to them, like to any naturalized immigrants that, you know, you just like, I guess, well, it came into a country that has a lot of, you know, like, I guess you could say, like, freedom and prosperity and all that and, you know, and, and chances to, I guess, yeah, freedom, prosperity and, like, chances to, you know, improve your life that, you know, some, some countries don't have, like, especially. Well, maybe, like, what's it called? I'm thinking more about the, like, the Spanish-speaking countries, like, you know, Mexico and, um, south of there, like, Guatemala and stuff. Like, they don't, they don't have a lot of, you know, opportunities in, in their life to, to, to, to. you know, have have a lot of money and or even, you know.

[12:38] SPEAKER A: Or.

[12:38] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Even have like, you know, or live in a safe area. Well, I mean, I know some countries have that, but not like Mexico and Guatemala and those.

[12:52] SPEAKER A: Yeah.

[12:53] YIXIN ZHAO: Yeah, you know, that really has been true for my family. My parents started their own business. They imported ball bearings as their business from China. And those ball bearings went into lawn swings and lawn mowers, and they ran the business for decades. And it's just more recently with the tariffs that they're thinking about closing down the business. And so, yeah, I mean, we've, yeah.

[13:25] JOHN OLIVEIRA: And I think, like, the. Yeah, the tariffs are, like, are a bad idea, in my opinion.

[13:31] SPEAKER A: But.

[13:34] YIXIN ZHAO: You think so?

[13:36] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Yeah, I think so.

[13:38] YIXIN ZHAO: Are they affecting you in any way?

[13:42] JOHN OLIVEIRA: No, they're not. I just.

[13:45] SPEAKER A: But.

[13:45] JOHN OLIVEIRA: But I. But I have heard, though, that, like, the reason why I say that is I have read, like, you know. like political, like news articles about it, like saying that, you know, if, if the tariffs go through, like it will affect both, like not just the countries that you're placing tariffs on, but it'll affect like America too.

[14:08] SPEAKER A: Yeah.

[14:08] JOHN OLIVEIRA: And I don't, I don't know, like how by how much, but it will affect America some. That's what they're saying.

[14:16] YIXIN ZHAO: Yeah, definitely, like 90% of what's being sold on Amazon comes from China. And if everything increased by like 150, people will spend less money and.

[14:30] SPEAKER A: I.

[14:30] YIXIN ZHAO: Guess less taxes will be collected also and etc. Etc.

[14:36] JOHN OLIVEIRA: And you, oh, you think it will cause less, less money and less taxes to be collected to in America, is that how it will affect?

[14:44] YIXIN ZHAO: Yeah, I think it would. you know, slow down consumerism in a way people will spend money. I think when there's uncertainty, like people don't know what's going to happen next, like they tend to save more rather than spend money. Because money, I think, represents safety in a way.

[15:04] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Okay. And, I mean, you know, that's interesting. I know I never, I never had that opinion about money that it represents safety. Why do you, think that way?

[15:14] YIXIN ZHAO: Oh, well, I mean, I think.

[15:20] SPEAKER A: I.

[15:20] YIXIN ZHAO: Guess let me speak personally. Like, at one point in my life, I was like, well, I need to like save up money. And I think that's how the economy is built. So like, if you have a job that's within a larger organization in a company, you end up saving for a 401k, right? And that's part of the benefit of working for an organization. they also contribute a slice of, like a percentage of your salary.

[15:44] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Yeah, a percentage of the salary you get to, they go to 401k, right?

[15:49] YIXIN ZHAO: Exactly, yeah. And so there's always this idea that, you know, by the time you do retire, like your life will be kind of like, at least stable, right? You're not necessarily rich because you have a fixed income and you're getting a monthly payment, but it allow by working at a job that allows you to save, then in retirement, you have that stability. So yeah, I do think, you know, not just me, but people will say like, well, the more money I have saved up, the more I feel secure. But that's not your sense, it seems.

[16:28] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Sometimes I feel that way, but it's just, I don't think I understood what you said until you explained it more.

[16:35] SPEAKER A: Uh huh.

[16:37] JOHN OLIVEIRA: But I, I agree that 401ks or.

[16:41] SPEAKER A: Other.

[16:44] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Other ways you save your money, it could give you, yeah, it could give you stability in the, in the future. I agree. It's just, I didn't understand at first.

[16:54] SPEAKER A: Yeah.

[16:56] YIXIN ZHAO: Yeah, that's one way. But I think, you know, what I'm learning as I get older is that security that comes from money kind of maxes out, right? There are people out there who are very rich but still feel very insecure.

[17:14] JOHN OLIVEIRA: That's, yeah, that's true. I mean, I don't, I think, but I think that's just their, like, meaning if there are people that are rich and feel insecure, I think that's just their attitude.

[17:30] SPEAKER A: Mm.

[17:30] JOHN OLIVEIRA: That's my opinion. That's their attitude.

[17:33] SPEAKER A: Yeah.

[17:34] YIXIN ZHAO: Tell me, so you mentioned like if you were the official greeter for naturalized citizens, you would tell them about like the freedom and prosperity in this country. Can you say a little bit about like, maybe it's two different questions, like just share your experience with like the freedoms that you really value and then maybe talk a little bit about what prosperity means to you.

[18:00] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Okay, I will. I think the freedoms that I, that I can think of are, you know, some, some of the freedoms that are in, in our government's Constitution, like, for example, like the, the, the first and second amendment, where it talks about, um, you know, like, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, um, and also so that's, yeah, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, that's part of the First Amendment. And then the Second Amendment talks about, you know, the, the right to bear arms or the right to own guns, basically.

[18:35] SPEAKER A: And.

[18:37] JOHN OLIVEIRA: And I think those are two, you know, two freedoms that in a, in a lot of other countries, I mean, maybe not, maybe not like Canada, but I'm talking about, like, you know, a lot of Spanish-speaking countries. They're denied that freedom.

[18:56] YIXIN ZHAO: Can you share a bit more about like how the freedom of speech shows up in your life? Like where you feel like you're exercising it or where it feels like, you know, there's maybe social pressure not to speak, even though you have the legal freedom to and also I'd be curious, like do you do you own a gun?

[19:18] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Oh, no, I don't.

[19:20] SPEAKER A: Okay.

[19:22] JOHN OLIVEIRA: But, and, and, and then I, and I think your other question was about the, like, issues that you feel pressure to take, even if, even if they're legally allowed, even if they, they're under the First Amendment.

[19:38] SPEAKER A: Right.

[19:39] YIXIN ZHAO: Like, you can say anything you want, but you feel like maybe social pressure to stay silent or.

[19:46] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Yeah, there's been cases like that. I mean, I think one, one example has been the, like, the covid-19 vaccines. And this is something that has affected me because I actually, like, you know, I had to, um, in order not, because I, I ended up not taking the vaccine and. I just had to, you know, fight a lot for it. And, you know, like, I had to fight. And there was a lot of pressure for me not to take the vaccine because I was in part of a college where, you know, 90 something percent of the people took it, and I had a lot of, you know, pressure not to take it, but, you know, and, and it took a lot of, you know, courage to say, you know, to keep saying no.

[20:42] SPEAKER A: Right. Yeah.

[20:43] YIXIN ZHAO: Did you end up losing friends in the process or what was the.

[20:50] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I don't know if I lost friends in the process, but I. I just. I just ended up, you know, what? Having, you know, I think the.

[21:00] SPEAKER A: My.

[21:00] JOHN OLIVEIRA: My relationship with some of the. you know, teachers or people at the college or other staff members at the college like probably went down.

[21:11] SPEAKER A: Mm-.

[21:12] YIXIN ZHAO: Your rap war with the teachers, you mean?

[21:18] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I mean, yeah, no, not so much with the teachers, but just with the other staff members there. Like, I don't know, like some other employees, not that weren't teachers.

[21:28] SPEAKER A: Yeah. Okay.

[21:34] YIXIN ZHAO: At the beginning, I had brought up that I wanted to ask you about your faith, since you mentioned it in your bio that everyone's made in the image of God. Can you say more about your practice of faith and what's that like from day to day?

[21:56] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I would say that with my, it's more specifically in my Catholic faith, I think I, the main part of it is that I, I try to pray at least every, like every day or twice a day and, you know, about different things and whether, whether it's, um, you know, a prayer for my family or just, or just saying, like a, our father prayer. You know, it depends on, like, the day or whatever, but, like, yeah, my main act of, at least for now, like, my main act of faith in Catholic as being a Catholic Christian is praying, but, and sometimes I go to church, too, but not, you know, not every day or every week, but. I go to church sometimes.

[22:48] SPEAKER A: Yeah.

[22:51] YIXIN ZHAO: I've been asking most of the questions. You want to flip it over and you can ask me a few questions, whatever you want.

[22:59] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Okay. And can I ask you too, like how, I mean, since you talked about.

[23:05] SPEAKER A: Being.

[23:09] JOHN OLIVEIRA: A citizen, I guess, or being a naturalized citizen of this country.

[23:15] SPEAKER A: Like.

[23:16] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Do you remember, you know, like where you lived when you first came into this country or like meaning where you lived or what was your situation like?

[23:28] SPEAKER A: Hmm.

[23:28] YIXIN ZHAO: Yeah. When I first moved to the US, my dad was working for somebody in a town called Paris, Tennessee. And so we lived there in a duplex and joined the church. We were part of a Presbyterian church and the folks there were very generous. They kind of, I think, started up a collection to buy, like, clothes and gifts to welcome us to town. And, yeah, we felt very embraced. And at that time, my brother was just born, one or two years old. We lived there for about two years.

[24:07] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Okay. Oh, so you lived in Paris, Tennessee for around one or two years.

[24:24] SPEAKER A: Yep. And.

[24:39] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Hold on, man. I'm just trying to think of another question I can ask.

[24:42] YIXIN ZHAO: Yeah, take your time. I like this topic of immigration though, because it is something that, like, I said it in a more oblique way at first, but I wonder, like.

[25:02] SPEAKER A: Well.

[25:03] YIXIN ZHAO: I don't think this is very controversial to say that sometimes policy takes time to, like, catch up to the reality of what's happening. Like, one example is, like, trying to control AI or to create policy that kind of puts some guardrails around AI. It's slow because the technology is just, like, pulling ahead.

[25:22] JOHN OLIVEIRA: And, yeah, I agree with that.

[25:24] SPEAKER A: And.

[25:27] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I've actually made the same comment sometimes that, like, not, not, not about AI. I mean, I don't really care about that issue, but about, you know.

[25:39] SPEAKER A: Something.

[25:39] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Similar with other technology. Like, for example, like, when, when they push policies to, to ban, like, cell phones in schools, like, that's been delayed by a lot or by, like, you know, what's it called? I mean, it's been delayed maybe like, you know, 10 years after like cell phones started becoming popular, if you know what I'm saying.

[26:01] SPEAKER A: Right, right.

[26:01] YIXIN ZHAO: And you're for that, banning cell phones in school?

[26:06] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Yeah, I think I'm mostly for that. I mean, it depends on which state, but yeah, I'm mostly for it.

[26:13] YIXIN ZHAO: Huh, depends on which state. But I guess the second half of what I was going to say is just that With climate change and.

[26:25] SPEAKER A: This.

[26:25] YIXIN ZHAO: Is a very generic word, but geopolitics, whether there's a lot of violence in these Central American countries, as you mentioned, these people are fleeing for their lives. And do they have the time to say, well, let me see if my visa will come through? There are certain quotas for different countries of how many people can be admitted in. and do they align with the need, right, of people to stay alive and to have, you know, some sense of hope in their life? That's something that I'm wrestling with.

[27:07] JOHN OLIVEIRA: And that's something that I, I can't answer, but I don't know if they, if our, if, if the quotas of, of immigration just align with, you know, like people's, you know, like people wanting to stay safe in their, you know, in, in those countries and the, you know, Spanish-speaking countries, Central America.

[27:27] SPEAKER A: Yeah.

[27:32] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I mean, I think, like, we do. I mean, we, we, I mean, if I had to guess, we probably.

[27:40] SPEAKER A: Like.

[27:40] JOHN OLIVEIRA: At, at, like, probably let in maybe, I don't know, a couple thousand or a few thousand of those immigrants, but I can't say for sure.

[27:53] SPEAKER A: Yeah.

[27:54] YIXIN ZHAO: And you know, I think the other thing about this country is that a lot of times the immigrants end up doing care work, right? Like, I've met so many caregivers who are from the Caribbean and from Central America for like, elderly people and for children. I don't know what their status is, but it's clear that there's a need for that kind of work. And I don't think they're necessarily keeping people who are US citizens out of that work. But I think there's more demand than there is supply for that kind of really challenging work.

[28:33] JOHN OLIVEIRA: And maybe it's because they're interested in that work, those immigrants in caring for either children or older people.

[28:43] SPEAKER A: Yeah. Yeah.

[28:45] YIXIN ZHAO: I guess, you know, like, it's not a thing that people necessarily talk outright about because it's like a dangerous situation to be in, to be a undocumented immigrant. Have you had any direct contact with documented or undocumented immigrants? And what has that been like?

[29:06] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I honestly don't know if I have. I mean, I, I think the only time I've seen one in, I've seen an illegal immigrant in person would probably be, you know, one time I, like, I was walking with, you know, my family in, in a New Jersey, in another New Jersey town, and I, and I saw, like, maybe, I don't know, 30 or 40 of them, you know, at a, I think at a gas station and they were just and we just guessed that they were there at the gas station because they were, you know, waiting to go to work somewhere. Like maybe it was like work at a construction site or something. That's what we guessed.

[29:50] SPEAKER A: Okay. Yeah. And.

[29:55] YIXIN ZHAO: They were dressed similarly like they were part of the same group. They were the same. Race, nationality.

[30:02] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Yeah, they were the same race. They were in the same group.

[30:10] SPEAKER A: Yeah.

[30:12] YIXIN ZHAO: I remember in Atlanta that used to be the case as well. Like people would wait for work outside of the Home Depot. It hardly seems like dignified work to have to wait out there every day to see if somebody will pick you for a job.

[30:29] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I mean, I don't know. I mean, but at least I mean all I have to say is like at least they're, I mean, even if they are illegal immigrants, like at least they're, I mean, at least they're trying to work though. That's all I could say. At least they're trying to work.

[30:45] SPEAKER A: Right.

[30:47] YIXIN ZHAO: Do you, you mentioned this before that, you know, like there might be crime associated with illegal immigrants.

[30:55] SPEAKER A: What?

[30:56] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Yes, there has been.

[30:59] YIXIN ZHAO: And where is, what is your source of information?

[31:03] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Like, for example, there's been, you know, a lot of, like, in, I think in, this has happened mostly in, in New York City, but there's been, um, for example, like, I've, I've heard a lot of news articles, local news articles about, um, like, fights at like an illegal immigration, like shelter that they built.

[31:25] SPEAKER A: And.

[31:28] JOHN OLIVEIRA: What'S it called? And whether it's fights or even, you.

[31:32] SPEAKER A: Know.

[31:34] JOHN OLIVEIRA: You know, people just getting, you know, getting into trouble there. And that's, you know, that that would be one example of crime from illegal immigrants.

[31:44] SPEAKER A: Yeah. Yeah.

[32:01] YIXIN ZHAO: You know, to be honest, I don't think I know that many undocumented immigrants myself.

[32:08] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I mean, either I don't know many or if at all.

[32:12] SPEAKER A: Yeah.

[32:13] YIXIN ZHAO: But you know, you're citing that there's been like fights at the detention centers or I mean, I think people who like don't have any hope or like, feel like they have no choice, like they can get into this probably happens in prisons as well, right? Prison fights, these things are common.

[32:37] JOHN OLIVEIRA: What's interesting is it was like, from what I heard, it was like not only fighting, but like fighting amongst them, amongst themselves.

[32:44] YIXIN ZHAO: Themselves. Well, I guess without the details, it's hard to know. And in any case, like, you know, people will fight with people no matter, you know, you're talking about schools or talking about country clubs. I, yeah. Do we want to, well, let's stay on this theme of immigration. You mentioned that your grandfather came to this country, right?

[33:22] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Yes, he did.

[33:23] YIXIN ZHAO: Tell me more about what kind of stories have come down from your grandfather about that.

[33:31] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Well, okay, all I could say about him is that well, he, he was born in Portugal and then, you know, lived there for, you know, 20 years or so. And then, you know, and then at first, like in, like, the 1950s sometime, maybe it was like 1958 or something, he, um, left Portugal and actually immigrated by himself to Brazil first. he didn't go to the America first. He went to Brazil first and stayed in Brazil for another, like, six years and then married to my grandmother. And then. And then in 1964, that's when my. Both my grandfather and grandmother came to America and immigrated here.

[34:24] YIXIN ZHAO: Okay, so your grandmother is Brazilian.

[34:27] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Yes, she is.

[34:28] SPEAKER A: Okay.

[34:28] YIXIN ZHAO: And then what was happening in 64 that prompted them to move to the U.S.

[34:35] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I don't know for sure. They never really talked about that, but my guess is that in, I know around 1964, like, Brazil was going through, like, the start of a. Of a military dictatorship, and they were, you know, they were basically. like, going from a, like, politically from a, you know, regular country to, you know, where I think from, like, a regular country to where, like, the, at least the elections would be like, or, I don't know if it was, maybe it wasn't the elections, but it was just maybe the, you know, most parts of the government would be controlled by their military instead of.

[35:24] YIXIN ZHAO: Yeah, and maybe there was a draft or, you know, I Somebody told me about a movie recently about the dictatorship. I'm not sure if it was the same one. It's called I'm still here and it's a movie about a Family where the husband is disappeared by the government.

[35:44] SPEAKER A: And.

[35:44] YIXIN ZHAO: So, you know, who knows maybe they.

[35:46] SPEAKER A: Were.

[35:49] YIXIN ZHAO: They felt at risk.

[35:51] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Yeah, maybe they did feel a risk, but I, I don't know for sure, but that, that's, that's just like my guess. Like, oh, yeah, that's my guess as to why they went, came to the America.

[36:03] YIXIN ZHAO: Are they still around?

[36:05] JOHN OLIVEIRA: And yes, they are.

[36:07] YIXIN ZHAO: Oh, well, the good news is that you can still ask them.

[36:12] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Yeah, but no, but they're, no, they're both still alive now, but they, no, they haven't, died.

[36:18] YIXIN ZHAO: Yeah, it would be interesting to hear, you know, what because to kind of like uproot your life and not just like move down the street or move to another state to move to a whole new country, you know, they, I don't know how much English they spoke at the time, but that seems like a commitment.

[36:36] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Oh, well, that's, well, that's another topic. Well, like my, my, I think my, only my grandfather learned how to speak English, but my, my grandmother never did. My grandmother still speaks only Portuguese.

[36:49] YIXIN ZHAO: Oh, wow. Do you speak Portuguese?

[36:52] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I do. And I actually learned most of it from them.

[36:59] YIXIN ZHAO: That's wonderful. I play capoeira Angola, which is a, I guess, a more traditional form of capoeira. Hey, and yeah, I know a little bit of Portuguese from singing the song.

[37:18] JOHN OLIVEIRA: So you know a little bit of Portuguese because you said you about something in Angola. What do you say about Angola?

[37:24] YIXIN ZHAO: Capoeira Angola. It's a martial art that actually came to Brazil from West Africa because of the slave trade.

[37:34] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Oh, okay.

[37:36] YIXIN ZHAO: And so the culture of the West Africans ended up in Brazil.

[37:39] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Ended up in Brazil.

[37:41] YIXIN ZHAO: And then mixed with the indigenous culture to create what Mestre Pascena, the founder of Capoeira Angola, calls the sorcery of the Africans.

[37:55] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know that.

[37:58] SPEAKER A: Yeah.

[38:00] YIXIN ZHAO: Yeah, it's been training capoeira has been an education for me because, like, I didn't know much about Brazil. I think I started out just because it looked cool and it was like a way to, you know, exercise and stay fit. But as I train more of it, I learned more about the, the history of, you know, Portugal and West Africa and Brazil and Also the history of black resistance in the United States too.

[38:36] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Oh, okay. Oh, but how can I say how does black resistance in the United States have to do with Portugal and Brazil and that?

[38:45] YIXIN ZHAO: Oh, yeah.

[38:46] SPEAKER A: So.

[38:48] YIXIN ZHAO: I think there's like a triangle of trade across the Atlantic where slaves were traded for sugar. So like the boats would bring enslaved people over from West Africa to Brazil. They would work the sugar cane plantations and then sugar would be taken and sold in Europe. And so it would form this triangle. And the same thing happened in the American South as well. So that, you know, West Africans were made slaves in the south of the United States.

[39:24] JOHN OLIVEIRA: And you see that, that I know West Africans were brought to the South to become slaves.

[39:31] SPEAKER A: Right. Yeah.

[39:33] YIXIN ZHAO: And the, the root of the resistance is really just how do you maintain your dignity in an environment that keeps telling you that you are basically animals, right? Like the psychological impact of being told every day that you're only good for your work. You're, you have no intellect, you have no rights.

[40:00] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Yeah, at that time, you know, what's it called? The, yeah, no, they didn't have any, any rights when, like, when the slave, like, oh, sorry, when slavery was like, you know, actually in the South.

[40:15] SPEAKER A: Yeah. yeah.

[40:17] JOHN OLIVEIRA: And, and same thing. And, and I know that there was some, you know, or actually, no, I'll just let you talk because I, I don't know what I was gonna say.

[40:30] YIXIN ZHAO: Do you have a question? I could, I could keep talking, but.

[40:33] SPEAKER A: You know.

[40:35] JOHN OLIVEIRA: No, what I was saying is that Yeah, I guess I understood like that part of it too, that, you know, that West Africans were brought to the South as slaves and then, you know, and they lived there with no rights. And then also there was, I guess, sugar plantations or, yeah, in Brazil that also had slaves, I guess, because I, but I don't really know like as much history about that because I don't know like when Brazil stopped slavery.

[41:09] YIXIN ZHAO: Yeah, it was very late. I think it was, like, close to the 1900s before they stopped. It was like 1890 something.

[41:16] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Oh, okay. Oh, so that. Yeah, that was later than the. Later than the South did.

[41:22] YIXIN ZHAO: Yeah, definitely.

[41:25] SPEAKER A: Yeah.

[41:26] YIXIN ZHAO: And it didn't, you know, end all at once, so, like, because, like, if you've lived under that sort of. structure for such a long time. Like, it's not so simple as to.

[41:38] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Say, like, that's not easy to change.

[41:42] SPEAKER A: Yeah.

[41:45] YIXIN ZHAO: What do you, I mean, my partner actually, he works on a project on reparations, which is this, do you know what that means?

[41:57] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I do, but I don't agree with it, but I know what it means.

[42:01] YIXIN ZHAO: Okay, well, it can take many forms. So what form do you think I'm talking about?

[42:10] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I'm talking about the form that politicians in, in America sometimes talk about that, that they, um, oh, that, that there's these, um, bills passed that you know, would give like, you know, a few thousand dollars or $10,000 in reparations to, you know, former, you know, families of people who were slaves.

[42:38] SPEAKER A: But.

[42:41] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I just, I think that's wrong because, you know, our federal government is already, and has nothing to do with like how wrong slavery is. It's because our federal government is already so much in debt and like and I don't I don't think that we can just afford to to give this money.

[43:04] SPEAKER A: Okay.

[43:05] YIXIN ZHAO: So it's a it's a more practical consideration.

[43:07] SPEAKER A: You mean?

[43:09] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Well, what do you think?

[43:11] YIXIN ZHAO: This is a question for you. What do you think can be done about the acknowledging that that had happened because I think in current day, there's still like a big rift, right, between Black society and white society and the sense that something has happened and there's never been sort of an admission or like a gesture towards healing.

[43:43] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I think I would disagree with that. There has been admissions that slavery is wrong over the years. I mean, because, you know, we, I mean, in my opinion, like, what better admission is there than when we stopped doing it and, and when, when, like, at least, well, even though I, I agree, you know, with, with, like, the southern states in some, some way and during, like, the Civil War, like, they, you know, they end up they ended up losing it.

[44:18] SPEAKER A: So. And.

[44:19] JOHN OLIVEIRA: And then slavery was stopped after that. So, I mean, I think that. That was even back then, like, an admission that slavery was wrong.

[44:31] SPEAKER A: Yeah.

[44:32] YIXIN ZHAO: I mean, I would like to think.

[44:34] SPEAKER A: So.

[44:36] YIXIN ZHAO: But, like, Jim Crow continued for many years after the end of.

[44:41] SPEAKER A: Right?

[44:42] YIXIN ZHAO: Like people were kept from the voting booths. So as a society, it seems like despite legislation, the opinions of people have moved a lot slower than the declarations of law.

[45:03] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I mean, maybe they have, but it's just, I understand what you're saying, though, about how, yeah, like the Germ Crow's laws, like, had, you know, went on for longer than that in the South. But, but that wasn't, or what's it called? And even, even though I guess they did, they, and they, they did deny some, some rights, and that's, and, and I agree that that was wrong of them to do, but. But I think now, or not even now, since the Jim Crow laws went away in the 1950s and 60s, I think it, I know it's not like it might not have fully recovered since then, but I think it's slowly getting better. I don't know how to describe it.

[45:58] YIXIN ZHAO: Yeah, yeah. I mean, and the time scale of generations. So like, I think there, you know, people who are still suffering or people who's, you know, entire lives have been, yeah, caught up in that.

[46:13] JOHN OLIVEIRA: But I think though, here's my other point though. I mean, the Jim Crow laws are different than slavery though, because slavery was a system where, you know, like you were brought to work and you couldn't even leave. like the owner's Plantation, or you couldn't leave the owner's property. And Jim Crow laws were. Were not as extreme. That's the other point I want to bring up.

[46:45] YIXIN ZHAO: I mean, I think that may be.

[46:47] SPEAKER A: True.

[46:49] YIXIN ZHAO: But it's also not citizenship, right?

[46:52] SPEAKER A: Like.

[46:53] YIXIN ZHAO: When you say God makes all humankind in his image, right, there is actually a clearer, you know, you are being treated as an equal versus you're still a second class citizen under Jim Crow laws.

[47:12] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Yeah, and look, and I agree that like that people should be treated equally, but it's just all I'm saying is that the Jim Crow laws weren't as extreme as the slavery system that came before it.

[47:24] YIXIN ZHAO: I agree.

[47:24] SPEAKER A: I agree.

[47:25] YIXIN ZHAO: It wasn't as extreme. It was a step down.

[47:28] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Mm-. And can I?

[47:33] YIXIN ZHAO: It's funny that we brought up Portuguese. I came across this poem yesterday, and I thought it might be nice for us to just share it.

[47:47] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I think you have a Portuguese poem you said.

[47:50] SPEAKER A: Yeah.

[47:52] YIXIN ZHAO: It'S by Fernando.

[47:54] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I would love. Yeah, I would love for you to share it.

[47:56] YIXIN ZHAO: Okay, so. Oh, Mar, saludo, Quantu Detalhes, Sal, Sound Lagrimas de Portugal, Porte, Cruzarmos, Quantus Mays, Schorara. Quantus filius envon hesarum, Quantus noevus ficarum, porcassar, parake fosus nosu, Omar.

[48:31] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Oh, I understood some of what that meant. I think, like it's talking about how, like, oh, how many more How many more sons deserve to, you know, are laughing or how many more kids deserve to, you know, suffer, I think. I mean, that's the best I could get from it.

[49:03] YIXIN ZHAO: Yeah. No worries. I actually translated it to Chinese because I'm also studying Chinese.

[49:09] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Oh, okay.

[49:12] YIXIN ZHAO: But it actually touches on a lot of the things that we talked about in this conversation. And sorry about my pronunciation. So, oh Salty Sea, how much of your salt are the tears of Portugal to cross your, to cross basically the ocean? How many mothers cried? How many sons prayed in vain? And how many, I guess, is it young women, I guess, stayed unwed?

[49:54] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I think fi, you know, fi, fi use is sons in Portuguese.

[49:58] YIXIN ZHAO: Exactly, yeah. So basically, you know, how much had to be given up in order to conquer the seas?

[50:05] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Oh, okay.

[50:06] SPEAKER A: Yeah.

[50:08] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I understand now because Portugal has. Has a history, too, of, you know, going, you know, of. Of exploring, like, the different oceans and everything.

[50:18] YIXIN ZHAO: Exactly.

[50:19] SPEAKER A: Yeah.

[50:19] YIXIN ZHAO: They were the first and the most, I think. I mean, one of the more successful. And then Spain came next, but it comes with costs.

[50:31] SPEAKER A: Yeah.

[50:33] JOHN OLIVEIRA: You said it comes with costs. Yeah, it does.

[50:35] YIXIN ZHAO: Yeah, it comes with costs. Well, our time is up. Is there any, do you have like a closing thing you want to share with me?

[50:46] JOHN OLIVEIRA: I mean, I just want to say, you know, thank you for talking about politics, you know, even because I know you said at the beginning that, or and not just about politics, but other and other things about slavery too. because you say, you know, you don't talk about this with a lot of people, but so thank you for sharing it with me.

[51:06] YIXIN ZHAO: Yeah, I appreciate you, you know, giving me the occasion to talk about politics because sometimes I'll hear it coming on and I'll kind of like sidestep it, change the subject, but we got to face each other and talk about politics.

[51:21] JOHN OLIVEIRA: Oh, well, yeah, well, that's a good thing. And, and because I, I also am a person who likes talking about politics.

[51:28] SPEAKER A: And.

[51:30] JOHN OLIVEIRA: And all I could say is, you know, and, and, and, and, except I don't know if I'm, like, afraid of it, though. I mean, I'm, I might be less afraid of it than you, but still.

[51:43] SPEAKER A: Yeah.

[51:45] YIXIN ZHAO: All right, John, it was very nice talking to you.

[51:49] JOHN OLIVEIRA: And, yeah, very nice to meet you, too.

[51:52] YIXIN ZHAO: I wish you well.

[51:53] JOHN OLIVEIRA: And thank you.

[51:54] SPEAKER A: And.

[51:56] JOHN OLIVEIRA: As in Portuguese, you would say, obrigado.

[51:59] YIXIN ZHAO: Obrigado.