Noah Vandenberg and Melanie Smith

[00:11] NOAH VANDENBERG: So I am a little out of sorts myself, but I think that although they do provide some sort of guidelines, it's really up to us if we feel like, you know, following along with any of that. or whatnot. But that first main question of why did you want to do this? Does seem like a good place to start if you have an answer, if you have an answer to that right now.

[00:48] MELANIE SMITH: I think it got sent to my email. It came in my email box because I signed up for StoryCorps Do you know the ones that you do with family members or friends where you record like conversations?

[01:03] NOAH VANDENBERG: Not very well. Like I am aware that StoryCorps does more than just these conversations, but I haven't watched any of them or really read about the details of that.

[01:13] MELANIE SMITH: They do, they have a whole other section where you can talk to like your grandma or your grandpa or something like that. And I had signed up for that because my dad's getting older and I wanted to record some of his like war stories and all of that. And from then, I got it started sending me other things like this. So that's how I learned about it. I wish I had a better answer other than I was just curious and I wanted to, you know, have an opportunity to chat with people. It. There's really nothing deeper than that. What about you?

[01:46] NOAH VANDENBERG: For me, I feel like it's been. just a course of development over my life from being very sort of certain feeling and argumentative about political things and, you know, pretty much anything for that matter, to getting more of a handle on what it is to hear other people. And also just realizing.

[02:37] MELANIE SMITH: That.

[02:40] NOAH VANDENBERG: Being heard.

[02:41] SPEAKER C: Is.

[02:44] NOAH VANDENBERG: A very variable sort of a thing. And so, you know, I just saw a billboard and thought that sounds interesting and fits with where I am in my development. So I just decided to give it a try.

[03:00] MELANIE SMITH: Do you mind if I ask you what you mean by variable when you say being heard is a variable sort of thing?

[03:06] SPEAKER C: That.

[03:11] NOAH VANDENBERG: Yeah, that's not really very well expressed.

[03:14] SPEAKER C: That.

[03:16] NOAH VANDENBERG: Even if I think I'm expressing myself well, you know, even if I wouldn't, you know, look back and say that, but would think, oh yes, I made some really good points or said just what I wanted to say.

[03:34] SPEAKER C: That.

[03:34] NOAH VANDENBERG: Doesn'T necessarily mean that it had any impact or particular meaning to the person who I was saying it to.

[03:43] MELANIE SMITH: I get it. So since you've done these before, do you wanna, and I actually didn't read any of the stuff that I was supposed to read. Do you mind telling me how it goes or how you'd like it to go, which I'm happy to follow?

[03:59] NOAH VANDENBERG: Sure. Yeah, like, I don't, feel like I have a, even after having done this a couple times, like I have too much of a set sort of idea or, or leadership of it. I do feel like in an instance where we maybe did try to sort of stick to the script script, it didn't really seem very valuable. And in instances where we've kind of just had a conversation, it seemed better. So that's probably how it'll go as long as I am, you know, in any way kind of moving things forward. But, you know, that also could have just been because of other reasons that I'm not at all opposed. to sort of going through the questions or anything like that. But no, like to me, I would kind of rephrase the starting point that they give here as like, what do you see as the core belief or beliefs that your political ideas kind of build out from. And then how do they build out from there in broad overviews? And then maybe what's like one.

[05:40] SPEAKER C: Experience or.

[05:44] NOAH VANDENBERG: Issue that you identify as.

[05:51] SPEAKER C: You.

[05:51] NOAH VANDENBERG: Know, being guided by your ideas on.

[05:56] MELANIE SMITH: Okay, that's interesting. Are you asking me, you want me to answer now?

[06:02] NOAH VANDENBERG: Yes, if you can. The other thing is, I am not really very good at turning around and answering my own questions. I will definitely try. But also, if you have any like slightly different prompts or ways that you want I feel like I do better responding to someone else's inquiry than just trying to turn my own back towards myself. Again, not that I'm trying to be unfair or I won't give it my best shot.

[06:34] MELANIE SMITH: I think I might agree. I have a feeling for me it would work better if it's just more organic. So that's fine for me. And I don't even know if I have core political beliefs. I think that how I'm guided is by just, I am a strong believer in compassion and I'm a believer that compassion goes a long way and kindness and politeness. I'm a big believer in politeness, but also that we miss a lot if we don't practice self-compassion. And although it sounds It's a hard thing, I think, for people to do, but I have a core belief that the more compassionate I can be towards myself builds my capacity to be compassionate toward other people. I've also learned a hard lesson, which is everything that I want to criticize someone else about, that I'm unhappy about, everything they did that I think was wrong, blah, blah, blah. If I look hard enough, I will see I've done or believe or felt the exact same way. So I actually think that's a good summary of my core beliefs, compassion, kindness, just basic human civility go a very long way. Did you want to share?

[08:00] NOAH VANDENBERG: That's pretty cool. I just recently read a quote and I don't even think that I know exactly who It was by, or I can't remember by now, but it was something very close to, it's rather embarrassing to have spent about a whole lifetime studying the human problem and at the end to find that one's only advice is try to be a little kinder. Sounds like you could have been by you perhaps. But someone who has been published. Again, I just can't remember the name right now. Have you been published? Do you do any writing?

[08:48] MELANIE SMITH: No, not really. Not really. I mean, I do writing, but it hasn't been really published. But I do, I write sometimes. But I was an English major, like that whole thing, you know?

[09:00] NOAH VANDENBERG: Okay, cool.

[09:01] SPEAKER C: Cool.

[09:04] NOAH VANDENBERG: Yeah, as for me, I am somewhat in flux. I definitely absorbed the kind of classic conservative foundation of the Constitution, the founders, individual rights in particular, and independence was my core driving ideal.

[09:47] SPEAKER C: But.

[09:50] NOAH VANDENBERG: Then I found out that that Didn't even work for me who believed in it. But I was not actually a self-sufficient, fully independent person.

[10:05] MELANIE SMITH: That sounds painful.

[10:07] NOAH VANDENBERG: If I might be able to be through plenty of hard work, I maybe was running out of reasons why that was actually such an ideal. And others who didn't even, you know, believe in that, you know, or didn't necessarily have the sort of inclination towards it that I did, then how much more absurd would it be for me to expect that to be? you know, the center point to build out from.

[10:53] SPEAKER C: So.

[10:54] NOAH VANDENBERG: Yeah, I guess I'm still trying to understand, you know, where the good is of still holding to individual rights and freedom. and still being able to recognize.

[11:22] SPEAKER C: A.

[11:23] NOAH VANDENBERG: Community need and how that can be shaped and cared for.

[11:34] MELANIE SMITH: Can you say more about one of those? Like you said, individual rights, independence and freedom. I don't want to assume what you mean. Do you feel comfortable saying more about one of those? Like what individual rights?

[11:47] NOAH VANDENBERG: So by independence, I mean being able to take care of yourself. Like I am not really comfortable, and especially in the past was not comfortable accepting things. and especially if I didn't feel like there was at least the possibility of it being, you know, a sort of give and take. And yeah, just don't like asking for help. And so that was one of those kind of just internal personal driving forces that mesh well with ideas. I think that, you know, that's a, that's a, a trait that goes well with foundational American kind of the history.

[13:01] SPEAKER C: Of.

[13:05] NOAH VANDENBERG: You know, for example, the Oregon Trail, which is something that I read a little bit more about recently. Just heading out west and making it work, you know, and in a lot of cases, you know, not at all expecting to be able to count on anyone else beyond the family making that trip. And then, yeah, the kind of the individual rights based sort of governmental philosophy. Also goes well with that where the main idea is to not interfere with someone's ability to take care of himself. So that's how I see that as going to go. Okay. As far as what you had said, if I could ask a little bit about the self-compassion at what point in your life do you feel like you started to see a need for that, or do you feel like it's just kind of something that you grew up and I'm sure have expanded your understanding of, but was kind of always there as a recognized need?

[14:36] MELANIE SMITH: And the self-compassion, I think I was, I don't, I'm not gonna say similar to you, but I definitely had a belief that you know, you just kind.

[14:47] SPEAKER C: Of.

[14:49] MELANIE SMITH: You don't do things that seem conceited or arrogant or anything like that.

[14:58] SPEAKER C: So.

[15:00] MELANIE SMITH: I'm trying to think of an example, but it's just important that, like, you don't, you don't, you know, monopolize a conversation at a party, because then people might think that you're, you know, self involved or conceited or something like that, or you don't share too much about yourself all based on the same thing, like these unwritten societal rules. I don't know where I got them from, probably my parents, where it was like just certain things you don't do that kind of kept me apart from other people. And I felt like it was me kind of being really hard on myself and it kept me from being fully known by other people and that whole thing.

[15:45] SPEAKER C: And.

[15:47] MELANIE SMITH: My old therapist had said she talked about self-compassion a lot, but I didn't really get it for decades, I would say. I really didn't take it to heart. And then over time, I started seeing, oh, I feel a little bit better about myself, unless judgmental, unless like I messed up this rule, Know, I talked so much now, like I'm talking with this guy, look, I've been talking for 45 seconds, he should talk and he probably thinks this and that. And then it was like, oh, well, if you're self compassionate, you just be like, well, he'll probably interrupt you or he's probably done that too or, you know, and it just kind of evolved over time. And as I felt more relief, I was more willing to, you know, expand on it and practice it more and all of that. and I think for me, I like helping people. I'm a big helper. So if it. If it means. If being more self-compassionate means it will expand my ability to help people, then that's my end. Like, it'll be like, oh, okay, I'll do it, you know? So I think that's how it came about. And I feel like now, because I'm. I'm. I'm, you know, I'm not like a. Pro Trump kind of person, I feel like there's a lot of non-kindness that's out there. So it feels even more important to me to practice kindness and compassion. So you asked how it had come and, you know, did it evolve or expand? And over the last few years, I would say it expanded greatly.

[17:23] SPEAKER C: So.

[17:35] NOAH VANDENBERG: Do you ever feel like your tendency, your helper tendency, do you ever catch that getting in the way of maybe having the right priorities. And if that seems weird, I'll give an example from last summer, a two-part example where I caught that in myself and I'm trying to evaluate that. Because I remember saying quite a while ago, over a decade ago, that you know, when I was more trying to figure out where I was going with my life, career-wise at least, that I just like to be helpful. I would definitely want to be around others, you know, preferably on like a smaller team, but I just know that if there are people who need my help, that that is motivating for me. But then last summer, on the birthdays of two of my children, both of these were around water. We were doing inflatable boats on a lake for one of them and a sort of a guided canoe trip for the other one. And on the first one, we were at a park and I was just like anyone who was coming up, like, oh yeah, you can try try the boats, you know, and just ended up spending a ton of time just, like, managing that. And, I mean, obviously keeping people safe and handling that. And then on this canoe trip with my daughter, ended up spending almost the whole up river portion of it, helping another canoe with a couple of young paddlers in it. And then just, I kind of realized it after the first birthday party, but very much so after the second similar experience, like, that's great and all, you know, but It's not like those kids weren't going to make it up the river. It's not like the guides weren't going to take care of that. So that was really just letting the helper instinct kick in when my priorities should have been elsewhere. That was a lot of talking by me, but does that ring a bell for you?

[20:30] MELANIE SMITH: A little. It depends, I think, on the context. So for the first one, was it like strangers that you were, that were... Yeah. And were they asking to ride your.

[20:41] NOAH VANDENBERG: Guys' boat or... Well, so we had five of them. These little inflatable boats were on clearance for $10 each and we were like, oh, that'll be a fun party. So we invited a bunch of people who were using these boats, but also, yeah, just other people at the park were just coming up and wanting to give it a try.

[21:02] MELANIE SMITH: Me, I, to me, I think it's so lovely and nice that you showed that as an example for your children. So to me, it's fine. Like even if they, if they were like, dad, you know, would have been nice if you spent more time with us. I, they're growing up seeing you be generous, being helpful, being open. Like to me, it's, that's way, way more important.

[21:30] NOAH VANDENBERG: I'm not trying to prove otherwise to you, but I'm telling you that that is not what it is to me at this time. I don't fail to grasp that. It is good to model good behaviors.

[21:49] SPEAKER C: But.

[21:52] MELANIE SMITH: You felt like the kids felt like you didn't make them a priority?

[21:57] NOAH VANDENBERG: Not, I didn't really even get that vibe from them, certainly, or certainly not anyone complaining. It was just something that I realized, you know, that actually I'm supposed to.

[22:13] SPEAKER C: Be.

[22:15] NOAH VANDENBERG: More fully present and involved. with them than with anyone who comes by and could use some help or could enjoy that experience.

[22:29] MELANIE SMITH: Very curious. I get like the, I don't know what you call it, counselor or whatever in me. I just like this conversation. I just want to, I want to dive right in there, but I will not do that because it's not necessarily the nature of this conversation. But one thing I will say that I hope you'll let me say, say is this is a perfect opportunity to practice self-compassion and be like, hey, you know, I was thinking about that, and next time, I maybe I gotta, you know, make my daughter or my kid feel a little bit more special in whatever way that is for me. But I'm also going to give myself a break because they didn't tell me they didn't like it, and I was doing a good deed and seemed like everybody had fun that day. You know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give myself a a little pass here, a little break for the self-compassion part. Is that. How is that?

[23:25] NOAH VANDENBERG: It's fine. It's fine. I don't want to argue about it.

[23:29] MELANIE SMITH: Well, it'd be interesting if that's what we ended up arguing about, as opposed to politics, you know?

[23:34] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[23:35] NOAH VANDENBERG: I mean, I feel like that's where we're at here. I mean, I. I'm. I'm totally fine if we. start delving into some current events or any of the hot button stuff, I still definitely, very instinctively do argue about those things. You know, it's still definitely a long learning process to do other than argue. Not that I think argument is outright bad things. still, but just saying it's still a process for me to not just automatically go there and be there, which is certainly not the only thing you can say. But I don't think we're going to. Do you think we're going to?

[24:24] MELANIE SMITH: I don't think we're going to. I'm not a big arguer anyway. I'm not a big arguer. I don't know, is there, you said, you said one experience or issue I'm guided by, do you have, or if you want to go into specifics, is there a specific question or thought that you want to share about a particular political topic?

[24:49] NOAH VANDENBERG: No, probably not, probably not. Like I said, we could, but.

[24:57] SPEAKER C: If.

[24:57] NOAH VANDENBERG: We get to that, we do. I'd rather hear maybe since you said you're an English major that was mentioned, maybe one or two books that you feel like really led to some big personal realization or growth or just in any way shaped who you are.

[25:27] MELANIE SMITH: That's an interesting question. That's tough. That's going to be a tough one. As you were talking, I was thinking, I'm listening to you, I'm typing because I can't remember the title of a book that I wanted to share with you. So I'm going to Google it now. But I was thinking of a book that I just read. I didn't, you know, I kind of read. I think it's called Calling Out. Calling in, how to start making change with those you'd rather cancel. It's by a woman named Loretta Ross and I have to find you now. I don't know where you are. Of course, I can't find you. There you go. Calling in and it's like against the woke culture and it's this woman who just kind of started when she was young. She was, you know, needed a job and this and that and she ended up in Washington, DC and she shares with you or the reader, her career progress, like how her career progressed. And she had been working in some center in D.C. and someone from a white supremacist organization, I think they were in Idaho, the guy wanted to leave and he had heard about her So he called her and she worked with him to negotiate his leave or something like that. He had a son who had a cleft lip, cleft palate, and the organization said that his son wasn't perfect and they wanted to, you know, to kill him. And that was the trigger to have him want to leave. And so he called her and she kind of, it kind of threw her into kind of a tizzy a little bit. And so she shares that whole trajectory in terms of her career. I didn't read the whole book, I just read parts of it and it didn't change my life or anything like that. I read a lot, I read a lot of books. I probably can't choose one that I could say changed my life. There was one that I just read by a guy named Matthew Desmond who teaches at Princeton and it's called Poverty by America. I love that book. I've read it like four or five times. It's that kind of book where you have all those little red and yellow tabs and the underline and the highlighting and all that. I just thought that book was amazing. What about the sort of.

[28:06] NOAH VANDENBERG: If you can give me a brief overview, Poverty by America.

[28:12] MELANIE SMITH: Dwight Desmond is just an interesting person. He's white. He's probably in his late 40s, early 50s now. His father was a pastor in Arizona, and he just was really curious. His family lost their house when they were, when he was young, and he got really curious about when he went to college, why he saw so many people who had a lot of money and so many people who didn't have a lot of money, and he felt like an outsider. So he started hanging out with the homeless people adjacent to the campus, but not like giving them food, he just, they were his friends. And then that's just how he lived his life. He moved in with them. He stayed in people's houses and trailers and projects and all this stuff, studying them and living with them for years at a time. And so he, because he was always curious about it. And so he did a lot, a lot of research on, poverty in the United States because he's like, we're so wealthy, why do we have such poverty? And the book is just him taking it from, you know, this is his idea of where it comes from. These are some of the problems that he sees. Here are some examples. Here's some things that you can do if you're interested in doing work in that field like that.

[29:31] NOAH VANDENBERG: Interesting. I have to see if I can find that one.

[29:41] MELANIE SMITH: What about you? Do you have books that impacted you greatly?

[29:45] NOAH VANDENBERG: Like I said, I can't answer my own question. I did try to soften that one at the end. So the answer you gave is perfect, you know. Yeah, I kind of framed it, you know, very, you know, like that way at first, but then, you know, yeah, just anything that That gets you thinking or that is interesting. While you were talking there about homelessness, I thought of the Glass Castle, if you've heard of that one. Which is about a woman who grew up in very unconventional and impoverished situation, but did end up going to college and kind of joining normal society, kind of a flip side a little bit. I mean, I guess you said that Hugh, if I got his name right, also grew up poor, but maybe in a more conventional way. And then, but anyway, this young woman just you know, made it and, you know, was living a more typical middle class life. But then her parents, you know, having raised the kids went into just homelessness, just living on the streets in New York. And she talked about, you know, kind of visiting with them and not really getting it, but this was a while ago that I read it and I would hate to have been, you know, totally on the wrong track, but I feel like her kind of the takeaway there was just that the people who are in that way you might not exactly be able to say that's what they want, but it certainly is something that they gravitate towards with a good degree of choice.

[31:58] MELANIE SMITH: You're talking about homelessness? They gravitate toward homelessness?

[32:00] SPEAKER C: Oh.

[32:02] NOAH VANDENBERG: That's what... That's my limited experience. I have not lived an extended period of time studying and deeply befriending homeless people. But I have spent a couple nights on streets and I definitely have tried to help out a couple of Living on the Streets people who I've met and also just had a random interaction with someone at a bar.

[32:38] SPEAKER C: Who was.

[32:43] NOAH VANDENBERG: Still living out of his car. But his car wasn't gonna keep running forever in the way that he was doing it.

[32:52] SPEAKER C: And.

[32:55] NOAH VANDENBERG: Yeah, all of these people, you know, it was very clear that they were not waiting for a chance to, you know, to hold the job and be able to pay rent. That was not something.

[33:12] MELANIE SMITH: And deal with what?

[33:13] NOAH VANDENBERG: They were not waiting for a chance to be able to have an apartment and pay rent and go to their regular job. That's just not something that was on their agenda. and so yeah, yeah, I would be interested to read how Hugh Desmond saw it and what he found with the people that he met.

[33:48] MELANIE SMITH: I mean, I don't know, I guess probably there's all kinds, don't you think? Like, I had the same experience.

[33:56] NOAH VANDENBERG: That's one thing that there's certainly a vast variety in every part of life more than we can really comprehend. But, sorry.

[34:08] MELANIE SMITH: I used to volunteer with some homeless, not homeless, some children, some of whom were homeless. And it was like you said, they could have gone to a shelter. They didn't want to live by the rules of the shelter, so they chose to stay on the street, which is totally their choice. When I lived in California, I lived, I used to work at UC Berkeley and I lived close there, too. And there were a ton of people there who certainly had options, but for whatever reason, they chose to stay where, you know, on the street where they were. And then I don't know if I've ever had any in-depth interaction with people who are homeless who don't want to be homeless. I don't know that I've ever had any long, deep conversations there. I've definitely talked to people who have unstable housing, but, you know, like you said, I think it's a variety for every, every category has a ton of variety within it, I guess.

[35:13] NOAH VANDENBERG: Absolutely.

[35:18] MELANIE SMITH: I'm trying to think of another question. Something politically oriented. I don't know. How are you feeling these days? How are you feeling now in terms of politics, I guess?

[35:36] NOAH VANDENBERG: Extremely unsettled. I'm fairly pessimistic by nature. so I do realize and remind myself often that people have been sure.

[35:52] SPEAKER C: That.

[35:52] NOAH VANDENBERG: Things are completely falling apart at all different times. And they've only been right some of the times. So, you know, Yeah, like I'm definitely.

[36:09] SPEAKER C: Not.

[36:12] NOAH VANDENBERG: Not easy to be like, okay, we're winning. Now this is all going to go right. Like, I generally feel like the overall trend for this country politically right now is in the right direction, according to my ideas of what's needed. But like not nearly in a way or to an extent that makes me.

[36:44] SPEAKER C: Feel.

[36:49] NOAH VANDENBERG: Really positive about the future. What about you? You said you're down on Trump and you feel like unkindness may be on the rise.

[37:04] MELANIE SMITH: I think so. I think, yeah, but I don't feel like the Democratic Party, I just wonder if they've learned anything. I feel like it's an echo chamber where, and I have no idea how it comes about. I don't know anything about that, but I feel like those who are maybe in power.

[37:29] SPEAKER C: They.

[37:30] NOAH VANDENBERG: They.

[37:31] MELANIE SMITH: I don't know. They. They tell themselves something, or they look at something on the other side, and then they're like, oh, see? And as though I just. I just feel like they're in an echo chamber. I really do not feel like even with everything that's happened, that they've learned anything. I I am. And I don't really know how to. address that. Sometimes I write letters to my representatives, but I don't really know if it makes a difference or anything, but.

[38:05] SPEAKER C: I.

[38:06] MELANIE SMITH: Don'T know if they've learned anything.

[38:08] SPEAKER C: So.

[38:08] NOAH VANDENBERG: Okay. I mean, what do you think they need to learn?

[38:14] MELANIE SMITH: I read an article in USA Today during the election, and it was from a conservative right Right wing woman and a quote that she said stuck with me. It was before the election and she said, I don't think the Democrats have any idea how angry the Republicans are, which I agree with. And I still think that they're, like, I feel like, I don't know, but I question, let's say tomorrow the Democrats just won everything, everything switched and they were in power. What changes would they make? Clearly society and the community and the country have told them there are certain things that they're unhappy with. Okay, what changes would you make? And I don't know that they'd have an answer for that question.

[39:04] NOAH VANDENBERG: Okay. Yeah, I mean it's very challenging right now. I think that, I don't know, if you're skeptical of this, but I think there's a pretty broad agreement that the country's fairly polarized right now. I mean, at least that's kind of.

[39:21] SPEAKER C: The.

[39:24] NOAH VANDENBERG: The backdrop for this conversation, right? Like, well, we can maybe at least talk to each other about it and maybe not be so opposite where we don't even get what the other side is about. But it is pretty polarized, so. Where would the Democrats get the their reason to care what the Republicans think or want, you know, versus trying to.

[39:57] SPEAKER C: Provide.

[40:02] NOAH VANDENBERG: The goals that their voters... Because.

[40:07] MELANIE SMITH: You have to represent everyone. You can't just represent, I personally don't think that you just represent, you know, your voters. Maybe they're a priority or maybe they, you listen to them a little harder. It's like being a teacher. You can't just teach the students you like, you have to teach everybody. So they have to listen to everybody. They can't, otherwise I feel like we'll just continue in this polarized way. What are your thoughts on that?

[40:46] NOAH VANDENBERG: Well, I mean, just I'm trying to think of any examples where, like it's easy for me to think of counterexamples, you know, where it is zero sum, you know, where the two sides want opposite things.

[41:06] MELANIE SMITH: Oh, yeah.

[41:08] NOAH VANDENBERG: You know, you can say, well, actually, this is good for you, you know, because we're right. So even though you're getting the opposite of what you think you want, it's actually good for you. But, I mean, I agree. It is true that the government has to represent everyone. And it is critical that somehow someone thread that needle and you know, show.

[41:39] SPEAKER C: Care.

[41:41] NOAH VANDENBERG: Compassion for all. But I don't think I have any guesses on how on what that looks like, like on immigration. You know, if a bunch of people think, yes, we absolutely need to.

[42:09] SPEAKER C: Be.

[42:10] NOAH VANDENBERG: Welcoming and permissive on immigration, and some people think, yes, we absolutely have to send people out of this country. I don't see how someone represents both of those individuals.

[42:34] MELANIE SMITH: I think that this might be, you know, please take this example with a grain of salt, but in a lot of ways I feel like it's like children where you say, well, you take turns or you say, well, You know, you have five, so he should get five. You know, you have to compromise like adults. And typically that means no one's going to be happy. No one's going to get 100% of what they want, but you inch a little bit closer. You just inch a little closer. I haven't seen, I haven't seen that. It's like you said it to me, it seems like zero sum. Like whoever gets it runs this way, then the other person gets it. they run that way, there's not really any willingness to compromise and kind of meet in the middle, which to me can feel very disrespectful. If I got into power and I just ignored every single thing from the other side, then the other person feels disrespected and vice versa. And then I feel like you end up right where we are.

[43:40] NOAH VANDENBERG: Sure. I mean, again, like on that example, and it seems like there are many, I don't think that you really inch closer to deporting millions of people by, you know, doing a percentage, a percentage reduction on, you know, how many asylum seekers you permit, you know, and I don't think you inch closer to, you know, the, the other side, which I, I won't try to give, you know, a three word, you know, representation of, but I don't think you inch closer to that side by saying, well, you.

[44:40] SPEAKER C: Know.

[44:42] NOAH VANDENBERG: We'Ll only deport one.

[44:45] MELANIE SMITH: Well, I'm not actually saying to inch. Oh, oh, I see what you're saying.

[44:49] NOAH VANDENBERG: What is the compromise when they're that far apart? I mean, it's, you can always say, well, you know, just, just come somewhere in the middle, but I don't, I feel like, yeah, there's definitely things where you can share, where you can, you know, meet halfway, but there are some things that are literally just going opposite directions.

[45:17] MELANIE SMITH: I hear you, and I don't have a solution, but I do think that what you said could be part of the solution, which is maybe since there's so much dichotomy on both on many, many issues, maybe we choose an issue where we can get a little closer. Like, let's start with the low-hanging fruit. Is there something where we feel like we can come here and they can come there? Maybe it's not immigration, maybe it's not the economy. I don't know, maybe it's street cleaning. I have no idea. But you have to, you know, maybe that's where you start.

[45:55] NOAH VANDENBERG: Planting trees, that's my idea for the one where we can get together, planting millions and millions of new trees.

[46:05] MELANIE SMITH: Well, I can definitely get behind that idea.

[46:11] NOAH VANDENBERG: Something.

[46:15] MELANIE SMITH: I had an argument with my dad because they, he cut down a tree. on their property. And I just said, why? Why?

[46:24] SPEAKER C: So.

[46:25] MELANIE SMITH: And he won't let me replant a new one. So now we're one less tree. Well, I have very much enjoyed talking with you. Same here.

[46:36] NOAH VANDENBERG: I appreciate it.

[46:38] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[46:40] MELANIE SMITH: And I'm Kristen. I never did formally introduce myself, but I'm Kristen.

[46:45] NOAH VANDENBERG: Yeah, we skipped that step. Well, I'm Noah, and I also enjoyed this time. Thanks for going for it.

[46:54] SPEAKER C: And.

[46:57] NOAH VANDENBERG: Yeah, I don't think I have.

[47:00] SPEAKER C: Any.

[47:03] NOAH VANDENBERG: Real specific, you know, big thoughts about it.

[47:12] MELANIE SMITH: And I don't want you to think I was-- I want to talk to.

[47:14] NOAH VANDENBERG: Someone else and have a human conversation and get a little more perspective.

[47:23] MELANIE SMITH: Well, and possibly I have a new book I can read, the Glass Castle. I'll look that up. I don't want you to think I was cutting you off, but I saw the screen do some-- and I don't know if it just cuts us off in the middle when we're talking or if it lets you go over. I have no idea.

[47:38] NOAH VANDENBERG: Yeah, no, from my experience, it will let us go over, but no, I don't have any regrets about not arguing more. I don't think that we need to keep trying until we find something that we are really unhappy about. I think we just take the win. Okay. Well, it's nice to meet you.

[48:08] MELANIE SMITH: Nice meeting you too. You too.

[48:10] SPEAKER C: Bye.