Virginia Pivik and Pamela Hayes-Bohanan

[00:00] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: All right, now I'm recording and you're recording. Okay, good. Okay, so the first question, why did you want to do this interview today?

[00:07] VIRGINIA PIVIK: As a person who has worked in communications, media, and journalism all my life, I value so much the power of conversations and I value the fact that we can hear one another as human beings and learn a ton just from simply actively listening. That's why I wanted to do it. How about you?

[00:25] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: For me, I have been, increasingly concerned about the polarization, political polarization in this country. And I kept saying, you know, we need to learn to talk to each other. We need to learn to listen. We have to stop sniping and learn to listen to each other. And then I thought, well, or I could just put my money where I have this and do this interview. So that's, I'm, I'm walking the walk and talking the talk.

[00:57] VIRGINIA PIVIK: I love it, I love it. And you're Pamela, and I'm gonna read what I read about you on your bio.

[01:03] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: Okay.

[01:04] VIRGINIA PIVIK: Pamela is from Bridgewater and she is between her 50s and 60s. We don't ask questions in that matter because we're two ladies and her typical voting preference is Democratic. She's interested in reading and she grew up in a suburb of Baltimore, Maryland, the middle child of of three. Her parents divorced when she was 13 years old. Her mother is Catholic and her father was an atheist. She currently worships at her local Unitarian Universalist Church. She met her husband in college and they have been together for 39 years. That's marvelous. Congratulations. They have one adult child who identifies as non-binary and she has recently retired as a librarian. She's very concerned about climate change and the erosion of the separation of church and state.

[01:56] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: Okay. So do you want me to read yours first and then we can ask each other? Okay. So Virginia is in Colorado and I'll make one addendum to my bio. I moved since I wrote it. So I no longer live in Bridgewater, Massachusetts. I live in Fairhaven, Massachusetts. Okay, so she's the oldest of two sisters and born and raised in South America. Her spirituality, religion and faith are important to her, a beacon of hope and a guideline to how she wants to live and treat others with respect and kindness. Baking is one of her hobbies and it relaxes her. And she also has lately taken up gardening. She thinks that protecting pollinators, plants, soil, and the environment is important. She's a cancer survivor, an immigrant, a mother, a spouse, and entrepreneur. Okay, so I'll tell you what I was interested in from your bio first. Okay. There were several. Okay.

[03:10] VIRGINIA PIVIK: The same happens to me and you. I saw so many things. I said, oh, I loved it, Dr. Pam.

[03:16] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: That you were born and raised in South America. So I have traveled to South America four times. I visited five countries. So I'm wondering specifically where you're from.

[03:27] VIRGINIA PIVIK: The accent you hear from is from Buenos Aires, Argentina.

[03:31] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: And it's one of the places I've been.

[03:33] VIRGINIA PIVIK: There you go. And my father, he was from Uruguay, so I lived in Uruguay, and at some point I acquired the Uruguay and citizenship as well. So those are my two places of origin or where I resided and I lived and worked at some point as well.

[03:49] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: Okay, so in addition to being a librarian, I also taught elementary Spanish courses at my university too. So I was interested, you know, in your languages also. I also noticed that you had under one of the stories that, you know, you had was free speech and censorship and that's, as a librarian, I'm very concerned also. I should have put it in my bio how how concerned I am about censorship issues around libraries and books. So I was wondering what your story was.

[04:21] VIRGINIA PIVIK: Thank you so much for asking about that. I feel like one of the things sometimes you have to face, unfortunately, when you choose to be an immigrant, when you choose to leave everything you know, everything that is part of your culture, your linguistic background and whatnot, and go somewhere else to try a different lifestyle, to try new opportunities in life, to try new experiences, is that some people may be resistant to that. Some people may not like you. Immigrants. Some people may resist your accent. Some people may dislike the fact that you are trying to acculturate yourself and be a part of a new society, a new community. And some people will shut you down. And some people will tell you nasty things, even in the streets. Some people will humiliate you. Some people will tell you horrific things about you. And that's really beyond the humiliation, beyond the going to a very bottom point in your life. It's feeling that for a split second in your brain, you have no belongings anywhere, because all of a sudden you feel like you don't belong to the place where you left because you chose to leave, and now you don't belong to the place where you're trying to produce or create some roots to. And I also experienced some censorship when back in the late 90s, I was one of the first female journalists doing sports in Uruguay, in South America.

[05:49] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: Oh, how interesting.

[05:50] VIRGINIA PIVIK: And people tell you women should be in the kitchen. You shouldn't be talking about sports. What do you know about soccer or polo or rugby? You should be doing something else like the other women. So it's interesting to see as a woman in media, but also an immigrant, sometimes even If you don't believe it, you may experience some lack of freedom of speech and you may be oppressed and you may be censored and silenced. So that's my story when it comes to that. Okay. When I read your bio, I found so many fascinating things and I thought I wasn't going to be placed with someone on the complete opposite side of the spectrum. And I thought it might be someone who is very Republican who has a problem with an immigrant like me. I thought, oh my goodness. But I love what I read about you and something that really identify portion of me with you is that to us, our religion, our spirituality is rather very important. And when I read about your son or daughter in the non-binary spectrum, that really raised a concern for me in the sense of how is this beautiful family so loving of God dealing with these difficult times we're dealing with right now politically, when so many wonderful human beings in the LGBTQ+1 community are struggling to find a voice, to find respect, to feel to feel seen, to feel embraced, to feel nurtured and respected. So that's my question to you with so much respect and love.

[07:19] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: Okay, thank you. So I'll first say that, you know, as Unitarian Universalists, we don't necessarily believe in God. I personally don't. Some people in my church do. Okay. I don't honestly know where my child stands on it. My husband grew up Baptist, interestingly enough. His father was a Baptist minister. So whenever I tell people our story about how we met and stuff, and I say, and the atheist daughter married the minister's son and they lived happily ever after. But my husband, I don't think, has much of a belief in God either. But the Unitarian Universalist Church is open to all. And all beliefs, all identities. So it's where we raised our child. I know, you know, he still, if you ask him his religion, that's what he'll say. But he goes to church on Christmas Eve with us. That's about it. But it is difficult, like you said, you know, the hate sometimes that you're experiencing as an immigrant. I mean, We are so scared for our child. We are so scared. And, you know, people do say hateful things. And, you know, all, you know, for me, you know, I, when our child was born and, you know, we went to church and had a dedication service for him. And the promise I made to him at that event was that I would I love him unconditionally. And I do. I mean, I had no idea what the conditions might someday turn out to be, but here we are. That promise that I made and remembering it really helped me a lot when our son came out to us.

[09:22] VIRGINIA PIVIK: That's beautiful. So many questions percolating in my brain as you were talking. It's interesting, of course, right, that you're your spouse was Baptist, was the son of a preacher. And there you go, right? Down the road to Universalist Church. And I wonder, was that a conscientious decision? Was that something that you guys really carefully crafted in your minds to be like, okay, how can we accommodate the ways we believe to a church that is not gonna deny us the way we want to believe?

[09:55] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: So, Yeah, it's a good question. And there's a, you know, there was a journey there, too. So, you know, there are certainly more liberal Baptist churches. And, you know, my husband introduced me to those when we were dating. But I, you know, wasn't, you know, I appreciated the space, but I didn't really have the beliefs, so I wasn't, you know, wasn't interested in joining those churches. But then when we got married, we moved from Maryland to Ohio. We were in graduate school and like our whole life became graduate school. And we said, we need to find something else so that our whole life isn't at school. And we decided to, you know, see if maybe we could find a church And I remember going to a Quaker meeting and we got to the door of the meeting and it said, We will be silently meditating for the next two hours. Please do not enter unless you plan to join us. And I thought, I'm not going to meditate for two hours. So we turned around. I remember asking around about churches, but I don't think we ever ended up going to one while we were living there. And then we moved to Arizona and there was a Unitarian Universalist Church there. And I will say, my husband actually had worked at a Unitarian Universalist Church in college, so he knew about it. He had been the director of religious education for the Unitarian Universalist Church in Silver Spring, Maryland, so he knew a lot about it. So there was a church there, so we decided to try it and we did end up becoming members there. We were there for four years and it really, it was, you know, it was really wonderful to me to be able to join a church and have a community because we were also in graduate school in Arizona. So it would have been our whole life, you know, if we didn't have church. So, and from there, we went to Texas where I got my first library job and, We did end up going to Quaker meeting there. We ended up at Quaker meeting when we lived in town. It was a very small group, about maybe 12 people, when everybody showed up. And it was just, you know, we'd meet in different people's houses. And that really did, it was a silent meditation, but it was just one hour a week. And it was a very friendly kind of space. And it was, you know, that practice really made a difference to me in how I was able to see myself and do my job. You know, it gave me an hour every week to just reflect on what was going on and what had happened and how I can maybe improve. It was a good experience for me. And then from there, we moved to Massachusetts. Where we've been for 28 years. We've been here 28 years. And we joined the church in Bridgewater when we moved here.

[13:08] VIRGINIA PIVIK: Wow.

[13:09] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: So it's quite a journey.

[13:11] VIRGINIA PIVIK: Yes. But marvelous one. Right. And the ones that really shape your matrimony and your family and your household and your heart and your mind. I love it. You went to Ohio, Texas, Arizona, Maryland. I love it. I went from Argentina to your way, from your way to Mexico, Cancun. I'm from Cancun to America. So I've been all over. But every time I moved was to in another country.

[13:33] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: So.

[13:34] VIRGINIA PIVIK: Wow.

[13:35] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: So, I mean, you mentioned that, you know, your. Your religion was important to you, too, so can you tell me about that?

[13:42] VIRGINIA PIVIK: You know, my mother used to take us to church back at home in one of these. Since we were four or five years old, my sister was quite sick when she was a baby. I'm not gonna talk about her because she doesn't like me to, but I think that really honed us into being a household where Faith was really important to us, at least to my sister, my mom and I. My dad was the one who didn't. Living God. My dad was the atheist of the family. He actually resented us going to church. I remember being a teenager and at some point really standing up to my dad and telling him, hey, I'm a good student. I don't even have a boyfriend. I go to church every Sunday.

[14:21] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: I have a.

[14:22] VIRGINIA PIVIK: A scholarship in school, in high school, so you don't have to pay for that. Why is. What is your problem? Why is it such a big deal to you that I go to church on Sundays? And at some point when I went to live in Uruguay, I had come to visit him every week, and my mom too. And I stayed late at night talking to him, just drinking tea, sipping tea, and talking to him. And at some point I mustered the courage to ask him, why don't you believe in God? And he told me that back at home in Uruguay where he was born and raised, they were quite humble, they were quite poor. And he told me to my dad, your grandpa, Jesus and God were just a fairy tale story. It was like Santa Claus. It was like one of those things. You don't have to believe in that. It's just a thing that some people choose to believe. But we have to work hard. We don't have time for that. So I finally got it. It dawned on me that it was his basic structure of family, his basic household, his mom and dad. Who shaped that system of beliefs or the lack of. So I understood, and I was trying to be always very respectful and always very conscientious and always very loving and caring of him and careful of how I approached that type of conversation with him, because I didn't want to hurt him. That's what he believed. That's what he thought he could do. He believed in what he could do with his hand, with his talents, with his sacrifices, with his hard work. With his strong work ethic, with what he could provide for his family. But that's it. That's it. I really believe that at the end of his days, when he got a little bit sick, and then he died, unfortunately, very surprisingly, we were not expecting his heart attack on his 70th birthday.

[16:11] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: Oh.

[16:13] VIRGINIA PIVIK: Wow. I think very down there, in that very last run of life, that's when he started to question his correlation to God, now where his soul was gonna go and whatnot. But that's something I will find out when I find him again in heaven.

[16:28] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: Right, right. Well, okay. All right, so the third question we're supposed to ask each other is to briefly describe in your own words your personal political values.

[16:44] VIRGINIA PIVIK: What do you think, Pam? Because I read for you that is something that concerns you, the separation of church and state. I'm really intrigued by that. Could you please elaborate on that?

[16:54] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: So, you know, it is part of our constitution that, you know, we're not supposed to have a state religion. And, but meanwhile, I'm watching as that gets eroded. And it certainly, it, it actually intersects with my concerns about book banning. Because, you know, it is a lot of religious groups coming in and wanting to remove the books about LGBTQ and even books about race identity. I mean, it's a lot of, it's whole categories of books. So that kind of intersection is where I'm seeing it most and you know but now I'm also seeing in the news that there's been the IRS is now allowing churches you know to to.

[17:56] VIRGINIA PIVIK: What do you call that.

[17:59] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: Endorse political candidates you know that hadn't been true before if you were a church with you know a 501 you couldn't do that and now it's allowed and I'll say also that I'm concerned that my church might take advantage of that. You know, I don't think my church should do it either. And, you know, if I see that happening, I may step back from church myself. And then also there was a very recent, I guess it must have been an executive order about religion in the workplace and allowing people to you know, try to convert their co-workers to whatever their religion is. I, this just, just seems wrong to me on so many levels. So I do, I do really think that, you know, and, I mean, it's interesting because as Unitarian universalists, one of our principles is you're free to search for your own truth. And I'm, I'm wondering if that's going to get eroded. Even within our religion, that people are going to say, well, here's the truth we wanted. You're free to explore this truth. And again, if that happens, I probably will take a step back from church myself. I typically do, I vote Democratic almost always. Well, no, I lie. No, you know what? In presidential elections, I almost always vote third party. I never like either candidate. I never like either one of them. So I almost always will just, I read all the biographies. Okay, here's the one I'd like to see president. I know this person will never be president, but I can't stomach it. So I go, almost always. I won't say always, but almost always will I do that. But yeah, in local elections, state elections, I I typically vote Democratic.

[20:03] VIRGINIA PIVIK: You know what is funny that when I get my citizenship of this wonderful America, and the first time I got to vote, I remember I took all the platforms and I read absolutely everything that came to my hands. And my husband, looking at me, my husband is from Wyoming, mind you, so he's as American as he can be, right? He said, what are you doing? And I go, I have to read everything about the platforms. I want to inform myself of what they're really all about. He's like, I never did that. He's actually, you're quite right, I should be doing this. So it was a beautiful exercise and now we do it every single time that we have to make connections. Wow. But he thought, I knew or I thought I knew he would tell me what the platform of this politician was all about based on the political platform he or she represents. But I think it's good to refresh your mind and to determine, do I want to keep voting and supporting this line of thinking or I do not. And when it comes to that, I have to say that only a couple of times when it came to political elections for governor or whatnot here locally, I may have voted once or twice Republican. For the most part, I felt more inclined to vote democratically for the Democratic Party, they shall say. But I always say to my friends, and I say this with utmost respect for the ones who don't agree with me, I really believe that America needs a third party or fourth party. We really need something that divides this point of contention, but also the line of thinking, the train of thought that many of us have where we don't feel identified with neither or, right? We feel like I like certain things of this platform, but I don't agree completely with these other ones. So I'm in the middle. I feel like as neutral as Switzerland. I cannot endorse 100% these guys, and I cannot go the other way either. I wish we would have some strong third emerging party that could tell us, you know what? We believe in a balance. We believe in an equilibrium. We believe that some things could be obtained by acquiring that center in our lives, in our beliefs, in our politics, in our actions, programs, initiatives, and whatnot. I said the same when I lived in Argentina. I was very young when I left Argentina. I was living in Uruguay, being a radio broadcaster. And I used to say the same about Argentina, and luckily Argentina at some point experienced a very nice, strong third emerging party. And guess what? People voted for him, Chacho, and he proved wonderful things to the democratic goals of Argentina. And the same happened in Uruguay as well at some point. So I think it's good to see, historically, we've seen that most of the democratic nations or republics tend to have two very strong ideologies. But it's lovely to see when some third equation comes into place and you can see, okay, there's a refresheral thing going on with the old archaic goals or platforms or mentalities. Now there's someone who is trying to dust off the type of ideas you should embrace for your constituents. So I would love to see that in America. I hope I can get to see that, or my daughter or your son gets to see that down the road. That'll be lovely, right?

[23:21] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: Yes, yes. But that is my father. That's something I learned from my father.

[23:27] VIRGINIA PIVIK: He.

[23:29] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: Would always, he would never vote for either of the candidates. He always remember, this is one of my early memories is him wearing this brown campaign button that just said Brown for President. And my sister and I were like, what? I was probably during the Nixon McGovern race back in the 70s. What? What? No, but there's, there's more. There's always more. And it was like, oh, wow, we never talk about that in school. Right.

[24:02] VIRGINIA PIVIK: You know what?

[24:03] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: You know what?

[24:03] VIRGINIA PIVIK: It was fascinating for me, Pamela. I remember the first time I voted.

[24:06] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: Right.

[24:06] VIRGINIA PIVIK: I always go back to, to that particular experience when I was here living in America. And I remember someone called me right away as soon as I acquired my citizenship certificate and I went to do my passport, and then you have to get enrolled.

[24:19] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: Right.

[24:19] VIRGINIA PIVIK: Okay, so. How do you want to enroll? Do you want to enroll as Republican or you want to enroll as the Democratic Party? And I go, do I have to? And we have a very nice, heated, respectful conversation over the phone. I must enroll in one of the two. And I go, do I have to? And she said, do you don't understand my English? And I go, no, no, I may have an accent. My brain doesn't. I'm not idiotic. I totally get what you're saying, but I don't want to. I rather get to be an independent thinker. I rather get to be an enrolled voter. I have the beautiful responsibility and write, but I rather don't get purchased or acquired by night or, you know, one or the other. I don't want to be in, in that list. So she understood finally my point, and she allowed me to be registered without choosing a party. I, I'm, I get to be very lucky that I live in Colorado where I can vote, even if I'm not registered under one or the other, and I can choose for who I want to vote. Back at home in Buenos Aires, you can even catch the vote and you can decide, okay, I want half of the Senate to be, and half of the other ones I wanted to be from the radical party. So you could cut the ballot. It used to be divided in three portions, president, the Senate and the Congress, and you could cut and choose the mashup of one of each for the different parties if you wanted. Isn't that marvelous?

[25:43] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: Right? I like that. I like that.

[25:45] VIRGINIA PIVIK: Yeah, me too.

[25:48] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: I guess that some of the, like Maine, I know has been, has, has implemented ranked Choice voting. So I guess it, it does some of that, but I, I'm not really sure how that works myself. I've never been able to vote that way. But anyway, so, all right, we asked the three required questions, so any I.

[26:15] VIRGINIA PIVIK: Like the one we have in here as a potential question and I love it and I'm gonna place it. Okay. Who has been the most influential person in your life and what did you teach you? What did they teach you?

[26:28] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: You know, I don't know if there's any one person, you know, when I saw that question and I thought, I guess I guess, you know, I guess I would have to say if I need to answer it, I'll say my father. He questioned, you know, when I would come home and tell him stuff I learned in school, you know, he would question me and I was like, and then I would be in this position where I had to defend this thing that I only just learned, you know, so he was always, you know, kind of questioning. I remember when I was in seventh grade, so this would have been mid to late 70s, and we were deep in the Cold War, and, you know, they were telling us about communism and how the USSR were our enemies and, you know, communists, you know, I guess our teacher was just trying to make it relatable to us, you know? So he goes, well, you know, what this means is that, like, if, if if, you know, the government wanted your bike, they could just take it and not get, you know, you wouldn't get compensated for it. Whereas, of course, our Constitution says they can't take your property without, you know, compensation. Right. And they could just do that. They could just take it. And then, you know, you wouldn't have any recourse about it. And so, you know, I came home. Oh, you know, all up in arms about it. And I told my father, and he goes, you know, the government could take your bike if they wanted. And I Well, no, they couldn't. He said, if Jimmy Carter came and took your bike, are you gonna tell him he can't have it? Well, no, no. Right. He said, the thing is, Jimmy Carter doesn't want your bike. And, you know, the Communist Party doesn't want some 12-year-old kid's bike over there. So he, and he would always, you know, all the whole time, even into college, you know, and I'd tell him something I learned, he would start questioning me. So he kind of forced me to, to think more critically, I guess. How about you?

[28:33] VIRGINIA PIVIK: You know, I have to say the same. I have to say I learned so much from my dad because he was an immigrant himself. He came from Uruguay to Argentina when he was 19 years old. And he saved enough money to have a room rented at a hotel or a hostel for a week. And he said, and he always told me that a man, a good man, a man who wants to prove his value, his nobility, should be able to find a job and sustain himself with this kind of savings in one week. I should be able to find a job and I should be able to help myself and then send even some money to my mom and dad back at home in your way. And he did. By the third day, he found a job and he was working at a restaurant. And then after a year, he met my mom and he asked her to go for a coffee. And then a few months later, they got married and with years to come, they purchase a home and then they have me and my sister. And he always taught me about the respect for the country where he was living at. I used to say that he was a Uruguayan that loved Argentina the most. The love, the respect he showed at all times for Argentina, for my mom, for my sister, for me, for all Argentinians was supreme. And and he used to visit Uruguay just very, very few times. He didn't have the money to do that. And he was so happy every time he went back home. But the love for Argentina was outstanding. And I think he really told me about that. And I remember the way he would treat other immigrants. I remember the way he used to treat Italians, Spanish, Peruvians, Bolivians, Americans, whoever he found across. The love and the respect and help them to get acculturated to the place and the country he chose for himself. And that's something that I learned from him to conduct myself in that same manner when I'm abroad, to be a good ambassador of my native country, but to respect, embrace and honor the country that is giving me a plate of food and a roof above my head. So phenomenal teachings, phenomenal teacher, and really, it's mastering my life when it comes to that. No, I'm from my mom. I learned about her work and.

[30:48] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: She.

[30:49] VIRGINIA PIVIK: Used to live in a rural area in northern Argentina. Similar story, she came to get better in her life and to help her mom and her siblings who were younger than her to Buenos Aires, the Goliath of Argentina, as you saw yourself. And she worked so hard. That woman worked so hard even when she was like eight months and a half pregnant with me. She worked in a butcher place, right, where they sell slaughterhouse. It's slaughterhouse. So even the house in these very cold, frigid temperatures and pregnant with me.

[31:19] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: And.

[31:21] VIRGINIA PIVIK: And she kept working and she was always taking care of the. The plants at the house, whatever she would grab would grow. I don't know how she did it, but that woman was so amazing and so kind and so Noble with animals and plants. So from her, I learned that. I learned that we have to honor our surroundings and other beings as well from my father. The respect and love to other humans, humankind, immigrants particularly, and from her the love to Mother Earth, animals and plants. So how about you? You told me about your father. Anybody else that you want to mention or you thought of?

[31:56] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: Well, I mean, so well since you talked about your mother, I'll mention so again, you know, it was a it was a year ago that I wrote my biography. This is the first time I've had a conversation. So two changes in my life since then is that I moved and my mother has passed.

[32:10] VIRGINIA PIVIK: I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

[32:11] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: Yeah, thank you. So, but she, everybody loved her. When she died, like five different people told us that she was their best, she was their best friend. Like, ah, and, and just, she didn't care what your politics were. She didn't care what your religion was. She loved everybody. And I, you know, I, my parents are divorced, you know, but that I, I never thought my mother and father belonged together. But then they managed to stay together for 16 years. It's fascinating to me. But, you know, she, she just always saw the good in my father, even though I really saw them as very. Very different people, certainly religion, and I would say politics also. And there was a huge age gap, too. My father was 18 years older than my mother. But I keep going back to all these people that came up to us at the funeral and told us how much they loved our mother. And I thought, you know, because my, that is, my mother loved everybody, you know, and I, I try to, now to take that with me, you know, just, she, she didn't judge people. And, you know, if you had a difference with her, she either just ignored it or tried to work through it. I mean, she didn't, she didn't actually have conversations, deep conversations with people, but she wouldn't judge. So I'd say, you know, that I did learn that from her as well. But yeah, I mean, I can go on about, you know, everyone in my family, but we'll start. We'll stop.

[34:10] VIRGINIA PIVIK: Yeah. And what I can tell based on the few minutes I have the luxury and the privilege to get to know you via this conversation that you inherited that beautiful passion and that genuine openness and flexibility of the mind and the soul to get to know other human beings is shining through. You. So I'm very happy that I got to be your partner in this conversation. I can see your mom's lovely.

[34:35] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: Yeah.

[34:35] VIRGINIA PIVIK: Yeah. Speaking of family and arguments, there's another conversation question here, and I love it. It's a thorny one because he's asking if we have had political discussions or arguments strain any of our relationships with friends, family or co-workers. Did that happen to you?

[34:55] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: I don't, interestingly, I'd say, you know, it happens with co-workers and now I'm retired, I don't have to worry about it. But I will say that it was the far left co-workers who were the ones who were a bigger problem than the ones who were far right. But one thing I do see, you know, and I I see it in a lot of my interactions is most people are like us. You know, we want to talk to somebody. We want to get to know somebody. We want to learn about our differences and we're happy to do that. The people on the far ends of the spectrum, either right or left, are just mean about it. And I have experienced like on both ends. Like somebody disagrees with someone and then the go-to is a death threat. Like what is that? Like I said I disagreed with this and now you think I should die? Like I, no I haven't personally had a death threat but I do know close friends who have based on political things at work. So and it's certainly something that happens with librarians and book banning. That's kind of the go-to. As soon as the librarian says, no, I actually am going to keep this book on the shelf, it's a good book, and that immediately the death threats will start.

[36:32] VIRGINIA PIVIK: So.

[36:34] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: I think that this. The strain, you know, like, I I did, like, there was one co-worker who I just. I blocked her, you know? I don't. I don't want to talk to you ever again. You know, we were on Facebook, and I blocked her on Facebook. It's the only person I ever blocked. Like, I don't. No, no, this is. This is not right. Yeah, but I still had to deal with her at work.

[37:02] VIRGINIA PIVIK: Oh, no. Oh, my gosh.

[37:08] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: How about you?

[37:10] VIRGINIA PIVIK: You know, yes, I have had a couple of differences with some family members and with some friends.

[37:16] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: And.

[37:19] VIRGINIA PIVIK: It'S so crazy because as a journalist or former journalist, right now I'm an entrepreneur, but I used to be in radio and TV. I always try to keep my persona, my digital persona, what I put out there on social channels or what not, very neutral. Again, no, that objectivity, that neutrality, that flexibility of being able to go one side or the other without judgment. So I never really put myself out there endorsing any politician or saying, I believe this or that, you should vote for such or such. I think, I believe people are quite intelligent themselves and they know their circumstances and their reality and experiences to determine what is best for them, what they think should be better for the destiny of a nation or a society or a county, even where they live at. When I felt this the most, believe it or not, was during COVID And it takes me back to the question we both answered before, when I feel very uncomfortable with a pastor telling me who I should be voting for, or a president telling me who I should believe in. To me, there's a huge inconsistency or a congruence there that my brain cannot compute. I should go to church too in my case, praise God, in your case, a universalist church and sentiment of feeling, belonging and love. And I should seek advice or guidance from a president to tell me what's going to happen with my community, what's going to happen with my society, what's going to happen with my nation, how we're going to move forward, how we're going to help others if we can, and how we're gonna, you know, do whatever we need to do as a nation, as a whole. So when I experienced people telling me, for example, at a church, well, we're going to vote for such, or we're not going to get the COVID vaccine because we believe this is not godly. And I thought, unfortunately, I thought with a person who was a reporter who had a very different viewpoint, a dear friend of mine. And I have to tell her at some point, Fulanita, I respect you tremendously as a reporter. I love you as a friend. I even love you as a sister in faith because she was Christian as well. However, you and I don't concor at all. We don't see eye to eye at all when it comes to vaccination. I believed in getting the COVID vaccine. She didn't. And she would bring me several arguments every single day to bring up about it. And at some point I say, Fulanita, I adore you, but please stop doing this because nothing is going to go over the love and respect they have for you. But this is really becoming very uncomfortable and very worrisome. So when it comes to that situations, I always try to ask myself, what circumstances surround this person? Where is this polarization coming from? Why this person so fearful? Why is this hatred situation coming from? Is it a resistance because something happened in their lives before, or is it brand new fear of the unknown, something they never experienced. So they're going to be fearful for the sake of it. I try to take that approach. So not to take it personal, because otherwise it would be very, very scary and very hurtful. And I've been there. I've been told many nasty things in the street by an African American lady might do. So minority to minority. And it was sad. And I don't want to go back there. So every time, every time or since that happened, I try to remind myself of those questions to protect myself.

[41:07] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: Yeah. One of the things I try to do, really, just feeling like I needed, I need to yell at somebody. I, I try to remember two things I read. One is just remember somebody, you know, they're fighting a battle that you don't know about, you know, right? That's true. You know, I don't know anything about this person except they did something right now that I didn't like. And, you know, so. Yeah. And then the other thing that somebody told me is think about how their dog feels when they get home. Oh, yeah. Probably the dog is really happy. Probably jumping all over. So, you know, and I really do believe that there's good in everyone. It's just some people, it's a lot harder to find.

[41:54] VIRGINIA PIVIK: Right? Sometimes you have to really unbury it, right?

[42:00] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: Right. Or just say, you know what, I'm not going to find it in you because I don't have the patience to find it in you.

[42:08] VIRGINIA PIVIK: Oh.

[42:09] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: Oh.

[42:11] VIRGINIA PIVIK: So we spoke briefly about our spiritual beliefs, and I think one of the last questions we may have time to reply is, how does your faith impact your political views?

[42:24] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: So, you know, most Unitarian Universalists, I mean, they do polls and such, so I do know that this is a case, you know, there's data to back it up. Most Unitarian Universalists tend to be Democrats, I'd say probably, I think 80%, something like that. Very few are Republicans. But I would say that it's not my faith that influences my political beliefs, but my political beliefs influenced what church I went to. And again, I appreciate being around like-minded people and I sought them out. But if I really think that the church is going to start telling us how to vote, like you said, that's not what I come to church for. So it's. It's something that, well, watch as it unfolds, see what if anything changes.

[43:22] VIRGINIA PIVIK: My husband, my. My beautiful husband, he was born and raised Lutheran, and right now he's in a phase of agnosticism. He's having a hard time believing in anything or at all. And he told me once very recently, it's hard for me to understand a political viewpoint slash Christian viewpoint that tells me that according to the Bible, the big book, we should love and embrace all immigrants and be the good Samaritan when someone is a foreign in this land, but on the other hand, we send them away to a country that they don't even belong. So that dichotomy into what I say, what I say I believe and what I do is driving me insane. And I really reflected on his words and I found so much wisdom and he's so right, you know, is the lack of coherence, is the lack of congruence that drives him insane. And I totally agree and support and I adhere to that notion. When you see certain groups of people or individuals who want to believe that there's a God and there's a nation and there's a way that the nation should be ruled, I respect that, but when there's a book that supports another viewpoint and you do the complete opposite, I don't get it.

[44:54] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: I don't get it.

[44:55] VIRGINIA PIVIK: I don't get it. So I feel like I'd rather you don't say anything about the big book, and you just do politics. Instead of trying to do a big mashup that is not really working quite well.

[45:11] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: All right, well it looks like we're running out of time, so final, final thoughts. I'll just say, Virginia, I so enjoyed this conversation. Like I said, I put my profile up a year ago. This is the first time I've been master somebody. So I'm so excited to do it. And it really was fascinating to learn about your life.

[45:38] VIRGINIA PIVIK: I love getting to know you, getting to meet with you and to talk to you. And one of the things that surprised me the most about you was your love for life, your beautiful laughter, your lovely love is so refreshing for the LGBTQ1 community for immigrants. Like myself, sometimes I used to think when I enroll myself in this beautiful project, okay, what if I take on the leap of faith and I get to go to a verbal encounter with someone who despises someone like me, who doesn't like an immigrant? And I was so beautifully surprised by someone like you, a beautiful soul like yours who doesn't discern about that, who wants to care about the human being behind the story, who wants to care about what is in your brain, what is in your heart, what is in your soul. So, Thank you. Thank you so much.

[46:28] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: Thank you. Thank you. All right, I'm going to hit stop recording, I guess.

[46:34] VIRGINIA PIVIK: Okay.

[46:35] PAMELA HAYES-BOHANAN: Okay. Good to meet you. Take care.

[46:37] VIRGINIA PIVIK: Great to meet you. Bye, Pam. Bye.