Pamela Ching and Wiedad "Roodly" Archer

00:01 Hi, I'm Pamela ching, and I'm 61 years old. Today is Wednesday, July 21st, 2021. I'm in Honolulu, Hawaii and my, I will be having. I hope a very Lively conversation with rudely Archer. And bewdley is a very close friend of fellow nutritionist and a fellow epidemiologist. And we are colleagues at the Centers for Disease Control and prevention in Atlanta, Georgia.

00:34 Hi, my name is vidad Billy Archer. But I go on the route Lee. I'm 52 years old today. It's Wednesday, July 21st, 2021, and I am currently in Easton Center in Georgia, and I will have a conversation with my mentor. And my friend Captain Pam chain, who is also an epidemiologist at CDC.

01:03 So pump, tell me how you got into this line of work. Oh, okay. Thanks rudely from the graduate schools that I've attended and a lot of times I have students call me cuz they see my profile on the alumni site and they asked me, how did I go from being a clinical dietitian to working for the CDC, both domestically and overseas. And as I indicated II started being a clinical dietitian, but I knew that being in the hospital as a career choice is not something that I wanted to do and my mother worked for the Hawaii State Department of Health. So I grew up hearing all the acronyms and my sister was a public health nurse. So I tended to do kind of depressed and I enjoy understanding how

02:03 People thinks I was always wondering how did people decide about what food? They like to eat and later what kind of physical activity they did. So along the way, I went from Clinical nutrition nutrition education. And then for my doctorate degree, I was looking at physical activity and then came to the CDC Works in nutrition. But decided that I wanted to broaden my perspectives in public house. I've worked in immunizations in HIV and AIDS and influenza and always wanted to work overseas and kept applying for positions, and eventually was able to do that. So I feel that I've ever had a pretty diverse career at CDC. I started as an epidemic intelligence service officer and he is officer in nutrition and use that experience to move on to other positions in public health. Thanks for the question Moody and I'll ask you in return. What brought you to where you are today.

03:02 Well, thanks Mom. Well, when I was doing my undergrad, the work I did my first undergrad in microbiology and I realized I did not want to spend my life working in the lab all the way to West fascinating work, but I wanted to have more interaction with human being and not just with viruses and bacteria.

03:26 So I decided to go in nutrition because I thought it would combine my interest for science, but also the ability to interact with others human being. And I really enjoyed the work in undergrad and being a registered dietitian. However, I wanted to get more experience to do a little bit of research and understand better their relationships with the nutrition and our health in general. So I apply for a master degree which led me to a PhD in cardiovascular disease and nutrition. And while I was doing my studies, I got accepted into a fellowship. It was The Fellowship of nutrition cardiovascular disease, and if you did me ology, so I did not know anything about if you give me ology, but I thought I would be a good opportunity to learn right now. Fellowship.

04:23 When I completed that Fellowship, I met a lady who became my mentor since then, and she is advise me to apply for eisd. If you do make intelligence service a program which I did and initially I was a bit reticent to do it. I start 1st at CDC as a no rice fellow as you know, I grew up in Canada. So the only reason I came to United States because I got offered a fellowship as a no rice fellow in the division of nutrition. So it was right into my Ally. However that same lady she kept reminding me every year to apply for Eis and eventually when I did apply I realized I was maybe the best decision in my life doing he is really allowed me to Branch out from my clinical experience and be able to do first

05:23 But also Global health. And since then I've never looked back and it's I think it's just the accumulation of sometimes meeting people along the way and listen to their advice. I would never thought that I would eventually be working in polio eradication or even Ebola when I was working in the lab at doing for spring hill studies in nutrition, but I think this is the best thing that ever happened to me. And part of it is because I had the opportunity to Dewey is a TTC.

05:59 That's great. I know we talked about some of the challenges that we face as women in this women of color and being in countries. Sometimes your people are not familiar with us. I know when I have been based in Zambia and Botswana, as you know, I often was the only Asian person that I might see on the street. And so in certain countries, I I think people sometimes I'm not quite sure what to make of me. They see Chinese people in the different contexts. And so they tend to have preconceived ideas about what Chinese people are like and I and these are usually people in the country directly from the People's Republic of China. Where is IMA fourth-generation Asian-American, I know we've talked about what it means to know how we feel about being a research scientist rather than Physicians about being women. Women of color.

06:59 I know that's been a challenge and it's even been challenging in in, in the United States. I think, you know, we have talked about how our culture really defines it plays a major role in who we are, how we treat people, How We Do problem-solving, and how we relate to each other off. We do, we often discuss that when we are working overseas, we work with a lot of Staff members in rcbc offices, who are what we call low clean. They are people who are citizens of the country and how bright and dedicated, they are how they are, really some of the most long-lasting employees for CBC because they see many of us coming to the country for assignments and we leave, but they are there. They're the point of continuity and they are all

07:59 Is addressing the public health issues that come out, be at related to the programs that we work in. And even just any kind of public health issue that comes up, for example, my last posting an indie. Yeah. I know my, in looking for a staff members, who are and friends, who I work with in India. They are there for our Global HIV and AIDS program, but over the last year and a half deep and heavily involved in the covid-19 response, but you can lie in India where there have been a lot of cases. So I know that we have discussed how much our culture means to us and how we treat people. So I was just wondering how you feel about that weather. Is it presents a challenge and or a benefit?

08:53 Yeah, I think we did talk a lot about

08:58 Discrimination towards women discrimination towards different races. Even about professional background. And one thing I could say working in global health and I work mostly in Africa and I have to say being a black at, I mean I was born in Haiti. Obviously. I am plaque. It is an advantage for me. Sometimes when I go in Africa because they could see somebody what cities have the same color, realistically the real after discussing this see we have similar similarities between also have differences. It's easier for me to work in Africa sometimes and have less frustration with the Discrimination towards race than it is in United States. However, I think the major discrimination and this is across the board are in any country's most being a woman because

09:58 I think we still have a society where?

10:02 We still not fully equal. Exactly, even though a lot of the work we do, I'm thinking and I can pull you a lot of their front-line workers are women, but in all your position, you don't see women that often and it's always more difficult to justify our present. Like I know sometimes when I have I have been in so many meetings over see where I would be working and I will be the only woman there and you still have to make your mark and and gain respect from your country part. I think this is an ongoing issue, but it's also make us stronger because we devil up tools to react to descript the discrepancy, but disrespect either based on our race or even our gender.

10:55 And I don't think I have a solution for you, really. But one thing though, the way I was raised allow me to interrupt anything better with some of my country part oversee. The Haitian culture, men still have a lot of power. I mean women are not fully equal, one more, it is the case, but you're still areas where, you know, men will be seen Superior to women. So having these been raised that way and having to negotiate, sometimes if I want to get my way in that contacts, it's make it easier for me to interact with the male counterpart, in other countries because I already understand that culture and I have some tools in order to address.

11:55 Some of the positive things that we have said, our personal culture has brought, you know, as you know, I'm, I'm Asian-American. I'm native Hawaiian. And I'm also Portuguese, and I think where I was born and raised in Hawaii, that's a common racial mix makeup, but when I'm in the United States or elsewhere, people are find that a very unusual combination. And I know that we have talked about how our cultures I think in a positive sense have allowed is to be, especially compassionate, and empathetic towards other people. You know, what are the most positive?

12:42 Aspect. I think we'd both discussed about our careers. Both and our personal lives is that when we like to identify with people, Mentor them help identify how we can help them. That sometimes we feel that we do that more than some of our other colleagues, but we still find that the most positive thing about our work. So for example, when I've been posted overseas or I have short term assignments, the most rewarding experiences I have had have been when I had opportunities to help someone solve a problem or help them with Career Development, or just help them to be a sounding board. I remember when I was in India, I was supervising too often. And one was very, very competent. Everybody knew her, but she was, I think struggling to try to

13:42 Figure out what should she do next with her career? So, you know, I was trying to help her, you think. Okay, you know, you're very motivated. You're working on the second master's degree. Now. I have you thought about what you want to do and where you want to go. So hers was more personal kind of mentoring. Where is the other staff member that I was working with? I saw that what she needed was to feel positive and to take charge of a project. So there was an incident where this was going to be. The first time. He was the major project officer. So I encouraged her to take the lead. That I would be in meetings with her, but I wanted her to take the lead and if there was anything that needed to be done, in addition to my Wood Pipe in. But only when I, you know, I thought there was something that she hadn't covered yet and I enjoyed that, you know, being able to figure out what each individual needs.

14:42 I was a similar situation when I worked in Botswana. I had to supervise to. That's wanna one individual was very competent. He had supervised people before. And so with him, I said, you know, I I will listen more and if there's anything that you cannot ask for, but I can that's my rule for you. Where is with the other individual supervised? This is the first time she was going to be a supervisor. So I did a lot more mentoring about what it means to supervise people to stay by the office and advise her technical advisers, who got to the field. So I think we are both sensitive to people's needs. We are compassionate, we think about how we can help other people, and it isn't, what, what can we get out of it for ourselves. It's, it's, when we go, we, we think about

15:42 How can we help the people? We are there to help serve and it's nice to have you as a friend as a colleague and also as a mentor in it and thinking through how to successfully navigate some of these trying situations. So I know that you have had a lot of experience has increasingly. So in those kind of situations when you were talking, I was thinking, I mean, it's no surprise that we are in the field. We are I think by our time and the fact that I guess both of us were raised also by parents, instilled in us, the idea that we need to be a good stewards and be respectful of others and taking care of others, other siblings, or other family members. So I think that also direct the pop something.

16:42 That we we we pick up as a profession. I mean, you cannot be a good registered dietitian. If you don't have that sense of compassion to sit, you know, at the bedside of a patient, or a meeting in a patient in the office and listen to their story, not only what they eat. But off and like, you know,

17:02 Ask that more questions about their life, to better understand some of their behaviors. In addition. I think part of a bringing and also, I mean, the Haitian culture or even the South Asian culture, like the sense of family, we're not alone. So I think that also transpire in what we do. I mean when we go and Country, we have that. I think a bit of humility and we here to help and not necessarily to take the lead and be the star of any projects. So there's always that sense that we bring everybody together and try to work with them so they could grow. And that makes me thing, for example, like when I was working in Haiti, after the earthquake,

17:55 In 2010. That was the first time we bought the devil a field. If you mailed, you threatening program and fast forward couple of years later, some of those graduate of the FTP in Haiti are not working another countries. I mean, they did work in Ebola in Guinea and then actually some of them stayed there so that idea of building capacity and mentoring people. So, you know, they could continue their work in public, not only in their own country, but elsewhere. I think it's very important as he's for you and aunt and myself. And I think that was one of the point that connected us. I mean the first time I met you because I was right after the earthquake and we had received some seed money to do some nutrition activities in Haiti. And that was the first time that CDC would act.

18:55 Give money to do like a nut, a survey on nutrition because we have too many of them, but more of a practical project and might be better than put me in contact with you. And that was the first time I met you and since then, you always been very supportive and helping me, not only for nutrition activities are in Haiti or when we went in Botswana to do some evaluation or Mozambique, but also of my outbreak response along the way. I mean, there's a key point. I mean mentoring is important for us and I think that goes for me is, I mean, both of us have worked with a lot of years. It goes also with fellows, not only at CDC, but outside. She's outside, CDC. I know you and I

19:49 Advice at candidate applying to your alma mater, Harvard, and MIT over the years. You always been involved with that kind of mentorship. Yeah, you know, I know we haven't had a chance to work out in the field together very much. But my most memorable experiences with you is as you mentioned, we were in Mozambique and we were trying to develop some nutrition surveillance systems and I was thankful that you do your, you know, you're you're being a native French speaker that you could speak to our colleagues in Mozambique in in French. And they would, they would understand. And in return, you could understand what they were responding back and Portuguese. So that was nice. And it was nice that we we sat down in the evenings after work and we would think about what do we want to put it in the Trisha?

20:49 Surveillance system. And similarly, when I was able to travel with you out to the field in Haiti, to see where some of the money that we were able to get to pepkor funding, you know, what's going for the clinic. And some of the activities you were planning. That was a lot of fun and I, you know, even though we haven't had more experiences. I am glad that we did have those two experiences. That was a lot of fun. Yeah. Can you eat? Do you want, what is your most memorable experience of, of since being at CDC, can be positive for challenging?

21:28 I think there's so many I think one of them is the one that I just said one of knowing that some of their fdp's were trained in Haiti and other country and providing assistance. In other countries. To me. That's one of the biggest success. The ability also to see every year New Year's officer or new fellow coming and then see them five years later, their growth and, and where they are in their career. And one example in my division,

22:09 We had a fellow who came, it was a thing, maybe a couple of years ago. He was as green as you could get them. He was doing his undergraduate and he was extremely, extremely polite and, and kind. And but he actually, I think when you talked about culture that was another example, he wasn't immigrant from an African country. Where, you know, we understand how your key, which is slightly different in United States where in United States, you are asked to express yourself more, regardless, in which at which level you are in the hierarchy at work while the way he was raised. He was more. Like if you are his boss you going to tell him what to do and CDC. We encourage fellows. Either. Yes or any other fellow to learn and also try to express and try new things have

23:09 Initiative, which is not always the case in other cut culture. So he, I mean, the first time I saw him react, I understood that he was coming from that point of view, even though he had studied in United States, but he was still like, if my boss tell me to do XYZ. This is what I'm going to do. So I was pushing in you note to get more initiative in the project. So he complete he had it then I think it was a 10-day. I cannot attend week. So we complete is my, is an undergrad to work a couple of years later. He came back and he said well I have to do my Capstone project. And would you be interested to supervise me again? So our team took him in and we work with him for his Capstone. And I remember one time you told me that, you know, I mean you're asking me to do a lot. I said,

24:09 You know, you at CDC. I'm this is what we do and sometimes, I'm pretty sure he must have made a voodoo doll of myself every night and do them. So I cannot believe that he's asking me to do XYZ want to do that for their project. Send me an email recently for Mother's Day. Thank you me and he said, you know, you were my CDC, mom, cuz he got accepted and got a full scholarship to do a PhD. And if you didn't yella G, I mean, this is not the type of thing that you will ever publish right? But I think this is one of the thing that really such me right now, that's the one that's come up. I mean, like I said, there's other experience but the file. You take,

25:09 Someone who didn't know much at the beginning. And sometimes I have to say, I mean, I had to push him a lot when he was doing his undergrad. But now he's going to do a Fusion Fe and I used to joke with the my previous supervisor. We used to say, check this out one day. He might be our boss. So we have to be kind to him, the best memory I have. And I think one of the reason like, I was pushing him as much. It's because I've benefited from mentors who did that to me. I mean, from when I was in grad school.

25:50 Too, when I start at CDC as a fellow, I mean,

25:56 That meant 20. We talked a lot about her off and marry serdula. I mean, she used to push me every year. She would say, apply for you. I asked apply for you guys and I was like, you know, good, no. And then the last year, when I did a fight, I mean, in my head, it was like, I apply. I won't get in, we will stop a conversation. I will send when I got in at, she really have to push me out of my comfort zone, but once I got in, you know, that was the best because it allowed me to learn concept, and, and practice, do outbreaks respond all over the world thinks that I never thought I could do as any clinical nutritionist specialize in cardiovascular disease. So having that in mind always make me when I have a fellow regardless if they re is Officer or if there are any other type of c l o f e l t p. N e.

26:56 I will push them the same way and it's kind of my way to pay it forward and when I see someone get to PhD level in f u r go somewhere else. Career and that's always a nice feeling and I and I think you had that experience previously to a nice thought that you know, oftentimes making a difference is not so much publishing, a paper or heading a large research project for being ahead of a large organization. It's the lies that you touch and clearly you touch this individual's life and you really made a big difference is it helped him to find his career and he appreciated that, you know, we are thinking or both of a temperament that for us, it's how we touch people the difference between

27:56 In making their lives, that means the most to us, related to that is, I know we have also talked about our families and how sometimes, you know, they may not always clearly understand what we do and how we do it. You know, I know my family knows I work for the CDC, but I don't, I don't think they have fully comprehend. What? What my job entails what I done over time as my I'd move from different positions, you know, what? As you know, I started out in nutrition is in the is officer and then two years later. I move toward our national immigration program and work there for 13 years, and I did a lot of different kinds of work for domestic vaccination programs, but also begin to gain. My experience is working.

28:52 International settings and I think we've both discussed how our backgrounds and nutrition relate to a lot of areas and public health. When I was, it's essentially focused on working immunizations. I know that I had at least one assignment where my understanding of vitamin A nutrition play helped in terms of Designing in understanding. Measles vaccination programs. We've done. We both been work for our Refugee groups in and that has often involve nutrition assessments and looking and vitamin mineral deficiencies and Refugee and internally displaced populations. So trying to explain all of that. And what we do on an international trip, I know his is challenging for me to explain to my family. So I kind of keep it very general.

29:52 So I don't, I I I know, we talked about those kinds of experiences how experienced has been for you when you're talking to your family, when they ask you so rudely. What, where were you and what did you do?

30:09 Yeah, I think you're right. I'm it's so much easier to explain to some somebody. What a nutrition is does, right, you know, like their vision is like you have a patient and then you tell them what to eat even though you know that it's not the full scope of the work we do. But that's so much more easier. And people grass that much more easily often and I won weed, Silver Lining with this pandemic is, I feel like, not only my family, but also my friend. And the public in general, has a better understanding of what if you give me ologists do in general. I remember, maybe 10 years ago. There was a kind of a cartoon on Facebook that was trying to explain what an epidemiologist did and it there were four pictures or four.

31:07 Yeah, pictures. I mean, one of them was somebody sitting at a table and having meeting. Another one was two people wearing hazmat suit and so want to describe, you know, like all the variation of what and if you didn't have his could do and with covid-19 people start to have a better understanding of their. There was always that believe or that or people were meant to say. So she travels a lot. I mean she has a jet set life. I remember once sleeping in the middle of nowhere in Burkina and I received

31:50 Attacks from a friend in Atlanta and said, oh I miss you. I've heard you just left, you have such a Jet Li Jet Set life. And then I reply to a message will have to redefine that term because right now the room where I am, there are creature crawling on the walls. I have no idea what they are. But I'm just put my mosquito Nets and just pray that they don't bite me during the night. And if this is just at Hopewell, I do but that's a lie. Definition. Usually am with Dad said it is. But also, what I do sometimes is referred them to the movie. And again, it's a movie. So it's Hollywood version of content right idea and to have them but at the end of the day, I mean right now it's easier for me to explain what I do because I do pull your application so I can try to vaccinate kids so they can get that crippling disease soda.

32:50 It's way more easier to explain than when we do other activities, but I mean it's a challenge. But I guess I don't even want to spend too much time anymore to explain the everyday of an epidemiologist. I just told him stories about well I have to do today and you was able to do this analyses yesterday, couldn't do it. I mean that they could be late, I bet. Yeah, but that's for polio eradication assignment and a blockling that there was a mosquito net covering the whole bed because throughout the night. I heard things falling on that net. And it was like, I don't think I was able to sleep more than a few minutes because I'm very bug phobic and it was just a mild form of torture to be sleeping.

33:50 That room with the bug falling on the mosquito Nets. And then once I got out of the net, I went to go take a shower and they're all where, all of my bug friend in the shower with me. Yea, you do the Jets. It overseas, like, people don't realize sometimes where we are in far-off places. And, you know, you're exactly right. I think we've covid-19 people, you know, I do everything. Epidemiologist wars in the past. You don't say, I guess I'm an epidemiologist and they would take skin. Do, you know, epidemics yet? We study epidemics. But, you know, there can be epidemics of infectious diseases that can be epidemics of chronic diseases. Actually. It's anything in public health that you would look at it. And yeah, so we both try to take opportunities to Define what we do to educate people about what epic epidemiologists do. And so, you know, I think,

34:50 God is kind of a kind of summarize is our career at CDC where we're often explaining exactly what an epidemiologist does. And it's very, very depending you do for us even where you are in the agency and the position that you could, you play me. Some people are administrative people. We Are Scientists. There are other people who do policy or Communications. It's all very different but all very contributory to Public Health. So yeah, and then that it's raining that to our family used to explain to me what you do in twenty-five words or less sense. Like, why do you have an hour? Because I'd like to give you a, a graphic and inorganic RAM. And I can tell you all the people in the agency and how they relate to each other, and then we have to mess with people and my people work internationally.

35:41 So, yeah, and what you saying, I know we don't have much time left and we could talk again more and more. But I was thinking, maybe like if you would, what would be maybe the three words you would give to somebody who looks like us, you know, like a visible minority. I know you use that term often. So, what would you say to a visible minority whose considering may be applying or maybe did not think about public health? What would you say to them? Like maybe maybe the best three qualities that they need to have a good question. I think, you know, one is perseverance, no matter what someone else or other people might say, even if they specially come along and say, you know, I don't think that's going to be possible. It's a good idea.

36:38 If some you know, you want to do something don't ever take no for an answer. There's always a way I know often times. I'm trying to prepare myself for a particular kind of job. I don't never get that job, but I happen to be in the right place at the right time. And another opportunity comes along. I think we both have had that experience were, you know, one thing led to another and that's how we expanded from being dieticians and nutritionists to epidemiologist, who have worked in many different areas to be brave, never fear anything. So perseverance, bravery and compassionate always be thinking of other people and how where they are in any pain or trouble is that they may have to help them whenever possible. Yeah. How about you? Yeah. Perseverance is right in and you said never take no for an answer. I mean that's remind.

37:38 One of the first thing. My, my first supervisor at CDC told me was really there. So many way to skin a cat sew in English in the US. But to this day, sometimes because it's a lot of hours in the line of our work off and we have a lot of roadblocks and then you have to think. Okay. How is it? How can I make it happen? So that perseverance is key compassion. Yes, I think compassion. I mean, that's the only way you could really understand what people are going through. As much as we joking about those bugs, are the balls and in your shower, but you have to realize that this is place where people live everyday. I mean, we go there and we do our deployment. But then after that, we return back home in our, how is our shower? So, having compassion and never forget that whomever, we interact.

38:38 With is also an equal and a human being regardless of their race and their judgment. So that's I think it's key what I would say, bravery. Yes, but also flexibility because we leave off and you get on the plane with a specific Mission. And then when you arrive on the ground, it's totally different. Because these recent evolve and I think with covid-19 it a lot and public. Exactly, so much for taking the time to talk with me and to record this. I know you wanted to do that for a while and you kind of had to push me away. I don't think it was a nice experience. Thank you so much. Sure. Thanks. Rudely. I am, you know, where we're good friends and we we have shared so much with each other. I'm glad

39:38 You agreed to do this with me, and so that this will be preserved. And so that others can listen, and hopefully learn from our experiences, and also enjoy hearing the funny things that we've done together. So enjoy, your stay in Hawaii. Take care of. Thanks. You too. Bye. Bye.